Transition as far as your comfortable?

[Barbara Ella]

Kaitlyn brought up a point I want to support. I am transitioning, and am proud of what I am doing and I will keep on doing what I can, moving ever toward the final goal, even if it may be unattainable, and will be forever proud of who and where I am.

And this is not to disparage the accomplishment of those who have progressed further, never. Knowing what it takes to complete the transition, I am even more proud of those who have achieved the end point of transitioning, now seeing what they all go through step by step. I would gladly take everyone of those ladies out to dinner and drinks as acknowledgement.

But I will remain proud of what I am in whatever position I eventually achieve.

Barbara

[Rianna Humble]

The way that I read the original post is that it is specifically asking about MtF transition and how do you define the endpoint if you only transition as far as you (or someone else) is comfortable with.

In that context, pointing out that the dictionary definition of the word "transition" does not define the start and end points is very unhelpful. The thread is not considering a word out of context but a concept "Male to Female transition".

Those who want to derail the thread by turning it into a discussion of whether people who don't need to transition should be called "True transsexual" are also being very unhelpful and are skating on thin ice.

Taking only the steps that you need to alleviate your gender dysphoria is a valid approach to managing gender dysphoria which is supported by WPATH but it is not Male to Female transition, for the simple reason that the endpoint is not being female.

Dreamer's other question about whether Male to Female Transition can stop short of SRS is a valid question. I am someone whose health issues prevent surgery. It is my opinion that I will not have completed transition until I overcome those health issues and can have Gender Confirmation Surgery (what most people here call SRS).

[Aprilrain]

It seems that the people who want to cling to the TS label are the ones who don't actually want to transition where as the people who have transitioned just want to be women. Is that the long and short of it?

[dreamer_2.0]

Possibly. I want to be a woman, but not a TS.

[Kimberly Kael]

Yes, because we all know very well that all who are truly TS go through full transition. Anything less and you're just a fence sitter.

I'm going to assume that was sarcasm?

All the other stuff can be argued I suppose, but how are you making a gender transition if you keep your male name and legal status?

I agree with the sentiment here. The real life experience is all about letting go of the safety net that your prior identity represents and embracing what you're asserting as your gender identity. Generally speaking that involves a legal name change and gender marker changes on identification, but there are cases where I could see exceptions. Having a sufficiently gender neutral name, or legal barriers to name and gender marker changes don't invalidate your identity –*presuming you're not retreating to it for some significant aspect of your life.

Do what you gotta do but for me it was full transition or bust.

Everyone sets their own path, but there's no uniform definition of what constitutes a "full transition." Is FFS required? Do you have to get your school transcripts updated? There are thousands of little details that will vary from one experience to the next.

The only person you need to satisfy is yourself. The only other opinions you really need to consider are those whom you know and love, not some pontificating doctrinaires.

Absolutely, positively, incontrovertibly the case! Nicely stated.

As an aside to this topic, has anyone faced the accusation of being selfish?

Definitely! Primarily from my father. For some reason many people assume that we should simply suffer in silence rather than subject everyone else to the awkwardness of dealing with our transition. Not that it isn't possible to be selfish about transitioning, as when spending your family's retirement savings on surgery. Looking out for your own needs is one thing, doing so at the expense of others is another.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yes you only have to satisfy yourself...
well gee, if only I had thought of that...

definitions and labels don't seem very satisfying to me

+++++++
the question from the OP is really what can I achieve genderwise without transitioning??

reading between the lines and based on the OP's other posts, the OP is really asking specifically..

As a transsexual, can I do something less than transition, and still have a great quality of life??

The correct answer is how the hell should we know???
I will tell you that the more you feel you are truly female, the harder it will be to have a quality of life without transitioning...but that's a generalization..

You are going to have to do it and find out for yourself.
You will simply have to do something about your problem...

And when you do it, you will know...And it won't matter one tenth of one penny what you or anybody else calls it...because you will [U]really really know for yourself..

Bottom Line
if you are seeking approval/encouragement/affirmation, you can have it, but it won't help you live your best life....

[Zylia]

I'm not a doctor or transsexual, so take my reply with as much grains of salt as needed, but I feel like there's a rather large (too large?) emphasis on the physical side of transitioning here. A 'full transition' in the physical sense still is only as far as the modern medical world can take you today. In my opinion, that point is about as arbitrary as "as far as you're comfortable".

Imagine women discussing what makes a 'real woman': Is it having a womb and ovaries and/or the natural ability to give birth to a child? Is it the lack of Y chromosomes? I feel like I've entered the same kind of discussion here.

[Rianna Humble]

This discussion is not about what makes a 'real woman' (whatever your definition of that might be), but it is about what constitutes transitioning from male to female. (That is why it is called Male to Female transition).

There is a subcurrent in the original post about whether such transition is actually necessary for the relief of Gender Dysphoria.

According to the latest WPATH standards of care, people can suffer from a form of Gender Dysphoria that needs treatment short of transition. That document describes such people as Gender non-Conforming as opposed to Transsexual. It is my belief that some TS folk can get away with behaving as if they were Gender non-Conforming and that they can even get away with it for long periods of time. However, the endpoint is different to the endpoint of MtF transition.

As far as the experience of the OP is concerned, none of us can tell her whether she is Gender non-Conforming or Transsexual since we are not qualified to make that call and in any case have not had a face-to-face consultation with a view to making such a diagnosis.

What those of us who are at various stages of MtF transition can (and frequently do) say is that the OP should not embark upon transition unless she needs to do so but that if she does need to transition, she should not let anything stand in her way.

[Zylia]

I don't think I gave my definition of a 'real woman', that's a conversation I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, especially on this (sub)forum. I also didn't claim that this discussion is about that. As for transitioning, I think that anyone can draw their own line in the very loose and ever moving sand and call it how they want to call it.

[Badtranny]

Now that we have completely redefined gender transition to mean something less than a gender transition, what's next?

I vote for breast implants that aren't really breast implants. Some girls can't afford the surgery and 'implant' is a rather ambiguous term when you think about it, so why not consider a really nice pair of forms to be the same? I mean they are a breast augmentation are they not? I think this is doable.

Who's with me?

[emma5410]

People say that those who use the word transition to mean a full transition to female are being elitist. I do not think that is the problem. The problem is that those who do not need to fully transition are trying to appropriate the word.
I do not why. I do know that doing it is a lot harder then talking about it.
I know that some would transition all the way but are prevented by medical issues and other reasons beyond their control. But anyone that is intending to keep living as a male to some degree is not transitioning.

[Kathryn Martin]

I guess I have to say something. Transition is simply the act of or the action of going from state to another. "Gender" transition what is that? Getting your girly on or getting your manly on? Being in touch with your whatever side? If that is what you consider transition and all of it's more or less extravagant forms than then putting on the girly Ritz on Friday is just another form of transition. Even if you get your girly on every day, even 24/7 ah well. As Misty says glueing a pair of jiggly gelforms to your chest if a transition too

None of this has in fact anything to do with what transsexuals experience. Transition is just a convenient word but in fact not very accurate. transsexuals need to fix their defect, both hormonally and surgically. They don't become female or male they are female or male but with a body that belies their awareness and experience. So unless you are medically prevented from having surgery because the risks are so high that you might die on the table, re-assignment surgery is central to becoming whole for a transsexual. And just to make it clear, if you have a dick you're not a woman, you may be a transwoman (whatever that means) and if you have a dick you are not a lesbian. You should ask a lesbian whether having a dick qualifies.

And Zyla, read the research already. The truth is out there .....

[Zylia]

Research about what exactly? About penises being the centerpiece (or final piece) of gender, sexes, sexual preference or transitioning? I mean, if that's the case I'm totally fine with that, I don't claim to be an expert in anything as I already suggested. At least it's good to know for the OP who's wondering what varieties of transitions are considered valid.

[Persephone]

It seems that the people who want to cling to the TS label are the ones who don't actually want to transition where as the people who have transitioned just want to be women. Is that the long and short of it?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[LeaP]

Wonderful! A bi-directional reductio ad absurdum war!

On one hand, the sardonic "anything qualifies, therefore transition is meaningless" as exemplified by Misty's forms example. I'll take this even further ... THINK about being transitioned and you are! Even better, if its possible you MIGHT think about it, you are!

At the other end we have the argument of infinitely dimininishing returns. Can't lock transition down to a specific set of procedures? Couldn't do things in the past we do today? There will be procedures in the future we don't have today? Why it means if you can't become a REAL little girl, you must be Pinnochia.

Aside from the diametrically opposed arguments, we have the semantic approach! "Trans," after all, means to transit, or journey… So it can never be said to be over…

Well done!

The standards of care qualify the word in most cases. I didn't count all the adjectives, but the term transition appears 33 times, including footnotes. Most of them are gender role transition, social transition, and physical transition. The document also refers to the "process" of transition. Finally, there is a statement to the effect that masculinization or feminizing treatments are not always pursued, and that transition is highly individualized, each individual seeking to self actualize around the gender role that fits them best.

So fine. Transition does not equal transition, depending on what kind of transition you are talking about. People need to be more precise in their language. If somebody is transitioning to a different gender role – say a full-time presentation of a genderqueer role – that's fine, but don't confuse that with MTF transsexual transition. Because they're not the same thing.

Can we have some common sense in the use of language please?

[stefan37]

Common sense is not common!

[Zylia]

At the other end we have the argument of infinitely dimininishing returns. Can't lock transition down to a specific set of procedures? Couldn't do things in the past we do today? There will be procedures in the future we don't have today? Why it means if you can't become a REAL little girl, you must be Pinnochia.

Not sure if I'm supposed to be on this end, but I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that most of these procedures (past, present and future) have nothing to do with changing your gender at all. I always assume that someone who's going through a FtM transition already has the 'female gender', they're only 'correcting' their physical appearance and social and legal status, etc. That's not to say that (any form of) transition isn't necessary at all, but to me that's really up to the individual. Sorry if I'm being too simple, naive or offensive, I tend to be rather nihilistic about a lot of things.

All I can really say is that 'gender' and 'sex' are funny things, e.g. a person with an X and a Y chromosome and androgen insensitivity syndrome is a woman for most intents and purposes, but would be a 'genetic male' on this forum. The more you think about what it all means, the crazier it gets.

[Marleena]

I'm not sure why but I find this thread entertaining.lol.

When is a transsexual not a transsexual? Answer: Since they're born as one the only time that would change is after the transition process is finished and they can live their lives as a woman...or the grim reaper gets them, right?

@ Dreamer It sounds like you'll have your answer soon. If the gatekeepers decide HRT will be beneficial to you then you decide where to go with this. If you start HRT you should know within a month whether it is right for you.

Jorja posted the TSroadmap recently and that will show the steps expected for a TS woman to take. If you don't make it to the end of transition you might get some grief from people but only you live your life. Do what is right for you.It's not a race and there will be many obstacles and unexpected delays. Keep working with you gender therapist.

In my case I was blindsided by the GD and had no time to prepare or think things out, I just needed help and HRT has been a Godsend for me. Now I know why my life was a struggle and other people seemed to breeze through it. So now I see HRT might not be enough for me and I have a lot of work ahead. I'm still struggling too and I admit it.

[Kathryn Martin]

e.g. a person with an X and a Y chromosome and androgen insensitivity syndrome is a woman for most intents and purposes, but would be a 'genetic male' on this forum. The more you think about what it all means, the crazier it gets.

See you have done some research, you need to do more. Chromosomes are considered determinative but are they? What about extentions on the androgen receptor gene, hormonal washes during gestation, what, indeed, about androgen insensitivity syndrome etc. Correcting their physical appearance is in the right direction, pretty good but no cigar. It's a bit more than that.

[Zylia]

Your post feels a bit condescending to me, but I assume that's not your intention. You'd probably be surprised how much I do know about genes, phenotypes, gender, sexes, etc. but that's not what I'm trying to prove here. The "Chromosomes are considered determinative but are they" was my point exactly. Granted, people with AIS et al. are anomalies in the grand scheme of things, they don't disprove all the 'rules', but they're an interesting case nonetheless.

I obviously don't know what being transsexual or a woman for that matter actually means to someone, how they feel, etc. I do know that transitioning is a bit more than correcting your physical appearance. My point was that you're not changing your gender, e.g. turn into a 'real little girl', you were born as the gender you're transitioning into, at least in my ideal world.

[Catherine Hopkins]

I guess we should all be grateful that current treatment guidelines are less of a box than some people's idea of how proscriptive and one size fits all this should be?

I'm sick of boxes. I put myself in one for most of my adult life. Now, I shall avail myself of transitional options until I'm in a reasonably happy place for myself. It won't be the same place as anyone else, necessarily, but it will be my own personal solution. And you know what? I'll have transitioned from my starting point as a male to my finishing point as whatever makes me happy. I may not satisfy some people's idea of true transsexualism or full womanhood but guess what.

[ReineD]

I do know that transitioning is a bit more than correcting your physical appearance. My point was that you're not changing your gender, e.g. turn into a 'real little girl', you were born as the gender you're transitioning into, at least in my ideal world.

You are correct.

To Dreamer_girl, this may be too simplistic, but most of us were assigned a gender at birth, based on our visible sexual characteristics regardless of personal gender identity. We were treated by our caretakers as the assigned gender and were strictly socialized to behave according to the norms for our assigned gender. To transition means to reverse all of that. All four transitions: gender role, social, physical*, and legal are necessary to accomplish a full transition that will achieve a transitioner's goal. A transitioner tells the world that she or he is living and will be treated as the sex that conforms to his or her internal sense of gender.

* the necessity of having SRS for a full transition is debated in some circles. My post isn't getting into that. But all the other forms of transition must be present for a person to be believable to others in their new gender role.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MelissaK, your point is well taken and I understand needing to live outside the gender binary if this is where you are. But we need to differentiate between transitioning from one sex to the other, and transitioning from the gender binary to the gender non-conforming. I'm afraid there is no popular language to use for the latter since society as a whole only sees two genders, male or female.

But maybe here, we could come up with separate words to describe your situation, so as to not confuse things. Using the terms "full transition" vs "partial transition" creates too many debates. Maybe we could use the term "transformation" for the gender non-conformists who cease to live purely as men and who make public their gender non-conformity?

Just a suggestion.

[Debglam]

The further down this path I go, the more comfortable I am with the concept that labels don't mean a damn thing. Ask any two people what "transsexual," "transgender," "transition," and even "woman" means and you will get at least three answers!

I am someone that depends on the accuracy of words for a living but when it comes to this stuff I've just had to let it go. You are not going to get a universally agreed upon definition to any of it. You just have to live your life to the best of your ability and make the best decisions based upon your needs. Namaste.

Oh yeah, I find this funny in hindsight. There is another forum where you not only had to identify yourself but also identify what you liked and disliked. Hi, I'm Debby, a MtF non-op, pre-ho, binary-identified blah blah blah who wants to be friends with blah blah blah but won't talk to blah blah blah! It sounds like the crap you hear when you are in line behind a real DB in Starbucks ordering a No-Fat, Extra Hot, No-Whip, Low-Foam, Latte!

[Rianna Humble]

I obviously don't know what being transsexual or a woman for that matter actually means to someone, how they feel, etc.

I think that this is the nub of the problem. It is easy for people who don't live this to deride us for needing to achieve congruity in our lives - they don't have to live with the crippling feeling that our bodies have been so badly poisoned by our hormone imbalance.

Even some therapists who are well used to helping TS folk will occasionally show that they cannot really comprehend what is happening to us. Saying that we would be surprised how much you know about gender is like someone studying the guitar as a theoretical exercise thinking that this study is enough to turn him into Jimi Hendrix.

The OP is faced with a real dilemma - she doesn't want to accept what her very being is telling her, unless she has some text-book flowchart to say that she is a type 9999.999 Transsexual and therefore instead of transition she only needs to go part of the way.

[dreamer_2.0]

The OP is faced with a real dilemma - she doesn't want to accept what her very being is telling her, unless she has some text-book flowchart to say that she is a type 9999.999 Transsexual and therefore instead of transition she only needs to go part of the way.

She would certainly find that flowchart helpful as she has a very long way to go until being able to accept herself. She also doesn't make a point of speaking in third person very often, although this may be the first time she's referred to herself as "her" and "she"...and can't deny the internal smile it brings. *sigh*