Interesting sighting and conversation

[Becky Blue]

So after all the bickering and snarkiness, did anyone change anyone's mind? Did we all agree on something?

I've lost track of the original question. Some people have asked me questions but not because they want to know the answers but because they want to continue to argue their opinion. Nobody ever wins an Internet argument so I'll be moving on.

As the OP let me say Kirsti this is a forum the purposes are to discuss things, we are having a discussion, there is no requirement for anyone to change anyones mind nor agree. You seem to be the only one getting upset. When I wrote the OP I knew it would raise some different opinions, that is what a forum is actually for. I did not expect to change anyones minds nor change mine, but I did read some really well thought out opinions from others that I did not agree with but respected their views as I hoped they did mine.

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I respect your opunion, truly. But my issue is that I'm not trying to look like or pass as a woman. For me, I like the feminine expression. Can a 350 lb footballer look feminine? Should she lose 200 lbs before putting on those Sketchers tights? Is she just not trying and therefore being disrespectful? You see, I feel I have a dual nature that moves along a spectrum for some reason (a mystery to me). And I have worn this full beard, uninterrupted, for over 40 years! I won't go out in a dress because it would be a shocking sight. But it would be nearly as shocking, I believe, if i lost the beard. But in either case, I don't get the idea it would be disrespectful more or less in either case. But since you and others apparently feel that it is, it is a blessing I'll stay inside my home when that spirit so moves me!

Sarahlee a 350 lbs man crossdressing should wear the same sorts of clothes a 350 lbs woman would wear. I can't imagine many 350 lbs women would be wearing sketchers tights whatever they are.

My point is if we as biological men are going out dressed as women, I feel its appropriate that we respect the women that we are dressing as. I am slim and tall and in my 50's and I have thin long legs that look great in a short skirt, BUT I feel that if I were to go out as a 50 year old woman in a short skirt its probably not very respectful at my age. I feel similarly about facial hair, a guy out in a dress with chest hair showing prominently or a 350 lbs footballer in tights...

What any of the above do in their own homes is entirely up to them, but I think we have responsibilities and obligations when we venture out

[windshear]

Sarahlee a 350 lbs man crossdressing should wear the same sorts of clothes a 350 lbs woman would wear.

How is this different than:

A man should wear the sorts of clothes a man would wear.

Now I would agree if this was advice:

A 350 lbs man crossdressing should wear the same sorts of clothes a 350 lbs woman would wear if they want to achieve the look.

And as I've said before, I don't buy this notion of "respecting women" by conforming physically. By that standard most of us have failed at the Adam's Apple, bone structure or fat distribution.

What any of the above do in their own homes is entirely up to them, but I think we have responsibilities and obligations when we venture out

What "responsibilities"? To whom are we "obligated"? This just seems a like vague non-argument.

[ambigendrous]

I think we might be having a semantics issue here: to me there is difference between "wanting to dress as a woman" and "wanting to wear women's clothes"...

When I dress up in my "comfortable" clothes, I don't see myself as dressing as a woman - I have absolutely no illusions of being anything close to a woman, but I am wearing women's clothes. It's no different than me going to the local ice rink for a pickup hockey game and wearing the jersey, pants, and socks of the local NHL team. Am I dressing as a professional hockey player, or am I simply wearing the clothes?

Certainly those who go to the trouble of using wigs, padding, makeup, voice training, etc. are indeed trying to dress as a woman, but like everything else in life we don't all have to fit into that cubbyhole to be part of this society...

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, your post in 74 is a different concept, you are asking how those 5 would feel if they knew about me? and saying by not telling I am not advancing 'the cause' that I am talking about.

I choose not to tell for various reasons that are personal such a work etc... when I go out as Becky I try very hard to be as normal a woman as I can be under the circumstances, when I have to interact with people I try to make a positive impression. I have been the first Tgirl that many people have met and I hope that I left them with a good impression that provides them with a positive memory.

[Georgette_USA]

I haven't kept up with this thread.

Yes there are judgements of what people in the TG spectrum, should and shouldn't do or present.

I have seen that here and other places on-line and in the people I see on a somewhat regular basis.

Here I have been questioned on my past. Gave my FB account name to any that want to see my regular life. Some said that it doesn't look like a TG persons page, and seems to be a lot of CDs. That may be true, not sure what a TG person page should look like. And yes I have many CD and Drag and Lesbian and Gay and TG/TS as friends. Also have a lot of my extended family as I am not ashamed to have many different friends, and my family supports them also. I have some from here as FB friends also, and see them in person on/off, and if any others want to, welcome. I realize many of my friends have dual FB accounts, and that is fine.

In the on-line world there seems to always be these stupid arguments on any kind of hierarchy of people in the TG spectrum. We share a lot and we should be supportive of others ideas and whatever their presentations are.

In the 3 TG support groups I go to, when CDs show up you can feel the isolation.

In the meetup group I frequent, they have a somewhat monthly soiree for all to come, from the first timer CDs to any cis female friends and SOs and TG/TS, last one had some 80 + people. I went to one recently with my date being a Lesbian friend in town on business. She was accepted by all, and my friend tried to chat with as many as possible, and she had a very enjoyable time.

I admire the work that some CDs and Drag artists go thru. I don't have that kind of patience. I have my own dress sense, from simple day wear to a little bit of goth/punk look at times, love skull wear.

[Shelly Preston]

Male or female, lose the 200 lb. Spandex is a privilege, not a right!

I find this comment hugely insulting to anyone who is around 350 lbs

Anyone should be able to wear what they want no matter their weight.

Who says they want to lose any weight anyway.

[SarahleeNH]

Shelly, my apologies for my insensitivity. It was meant to be self deprecating, carrying 50+ too many pounds myself. I know only too well what I look like in Spandex (as I do own two pairs!). I can easily see in hindsight it was insulting, and I regret the piling on.

[Krisi]

I find this comment hugely insulting to anyone who is around 350 lbs

Anyone should be able to wear what they want no matter their weight.

Who says they want to lose any weight anyway.

I forget sometimes how fragile many members here are so if I insulted you, that's not what I meant to do. What I posted is a pretty common sentiment and I hear it often from friends and others. Most people feel you should wear clothing that's appropriate for your body. I know my wife and other female friends do.

So anyone can wear whatever they want, whatever their weight. They should know and understand that others may be laughing at them. That's reality, like it or not.

The same goes for the man in a dress. He has a right to wear it for whatever reason. Same thing though, the reality is, people will be laughing at him.

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As the OP let me say Kirsti this is a forum the purposes are to discuss things, we are having a discussion, there is no requirement for anyone to change anyones mind nor agree. You seem to be the only one getting upset. .....................

You missed my point and I am not upset, just amused. What is happening here is, the same people continue to make the same point but their language is getting "snarky". By that, I mean as the "discussion" goes on, they are beginning to slip insults into their posts to try to make the point that their opinion is superior to their opponent's opinion.

This is a pretty common situation on Internet forums and not just this one. We have the protection of our keyboards so we can say whatever we want without the danger of a closed fist coming our way. In the end, everyone goes away, perhaps a little angry, but with the same opinions they entered with.

[windshear]

Krisi,

None of us should have to walk on eggshells for others... The "fragility" of some people is absurd. Given the escalation of this trend, eventually the only acceptable dialogue will be complete and utter silence.

[Shelly Preston]

I was not personally insulted by the comment as I am not close to 350 lbs.

This is not about walking on eggshells or the fragility of some.

Its about having a discussion and being civil to each other.

I would hope members here would be intelligent enough to make a point without being insulting.

Thanks to those who replied to me.

[Becky Blue]

In essence the 350 Lbs CD is not relevant to the topic. Most people M F CD (whatever) tend to wear clothes that suit their body shape and those that don't do so for whatever reason they wish to.

The topic was about a man with a well kept beard going out in a dress, which to me is a statement of intent and how my friends and wife reacted.

[mykell]

Mikell, your post in 74 is a different concept, you are asking how those 5 would feel if they knew about me? and saying by not telling I am not advancing 'the cause' that I am talking about.

I choose not to tell for various reasons that are personal such a work etc... when I go out as Becky I try very hard to be as normal a woman as I can be under the circumstances, when I have to interact with people I try to make a positive impression. I have been the first Tgirl that many people have met and I hope that I left them with a good impression that provides them with a positive memory.

my point in my post is not a concept, its a reality, we are our worst advocates, and as i stated im still half in the closet, im not a flag waving supporter passing out fliers at LGBT events, i try to portray a good image for how i present, when i meet folks out in the "wild" i am an open book, i am honest and respectful....i too wish to make a positive impression, i now volunteer at a LGBT facility and while there i dont feel the need to wear my makeup. at my meet-up and at another t-group i attend many folks come in various stages of dress, they attend with friends and family, who am i or you to judge them, they are being true to themselves, i am being true to me, and you have shared how you feel. they are advancing there cause as some may be the first bearded crossdresser that people meet and they may be hoping to leave them with a good impression so that they have a positive memory after the interaction.

i was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the thread and many of the comments, i used your quote as this is your thread and was not judging, but sharing what i observed morphed from a comment to a judgement. your normal and mine or others normal are different, 40yrs ago bippity bopping down the road in womens clothes was not my normal, today....pretty much.

shelly im often disappointed, ive noticed how the most sensitive folks lob the most disparaging comments with no regard for others feelings or common respect....

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, my OP was focused on the event and the 5 'normal' people's opinion. I did not want to cloud it with my opinion, which was similar to theirs anyway.

I agree with your point above, you are at LGBT events where some people are very bravely are showing that side of themselves in a protected place and have come partly dressed which is the way they can feel comfortable, that is to be applauded on every level.

I think that my point about representing our community when we go out was aimed at going out in public places where people who have no exposure to the trans community see us.

Imagine if someone had been outside that theatre in Melbourne and had never seen a CD or Trans person that they were aware of. imagine if my guy in the red dress with the well trimmed beard was their first. How do you feel that person's opinion of the Trans community would be from that first sighting?

[mykell]

becky my reply was focused on the opinions you and others have shared after the OP, it went from statements to judgements, i have seen bearded folks in the "wild" and at my LGBT venues. its not my cup of tea....
so again.....like you they are just being true to themselves and may be the first bearded CD those folks meet and are just trying to make a good first impression to them. not sure what the "theatre in Melbourne" reference alludes to BUT i guessing that from theyre first sighting of a Transgender person or the first sighting of a trekkie convention, comicon, furry, B&D convention, heck we have a sex toy convention here every year, so just because it will be unconventional the first time someone sees someone else out enjoying those activities and sees people who attend them at stops along theyre way to or from them and find they are not ordinary repetition does not bode to acceptance of any of those activities, just awareness that we are not all the same and like different things. so in this case only time will tell. who are any of us to judge them is my point. its legal and they are not hurting anyone.

"normal"
heck we're not even gonna agree on what football is....

[phili]

Heyy, wait- I am that man!

Observations from my window -listening as Becky did, but to a conversation among a big group of crossdressers:

Some nice and generous moderates who espouse live and let live, as a really simple way to avoid creating social conflict where it really isn't justified-[ if we hold to the standard of 'is anyone harmed by this behavior?"]. This has the advantage of liberating creative thinking in society which has at least as much potential to benefit society as it does to allow antisocial behavior that harms people. We then can suppress that, while keeping the benefit of all that is not harmful.

Many who want to enforce rules for social acceptance that they find agreeable, [this is the 'if you are going to crossdress, try to pass or at least 'respect' the code of dress expected of women, harrumph'] presumably because they are successful in complying with them and like these rules!

Clues about the deep emotions and cultural presuppositions- i.e. a man who tries to conform to feminine standards would not be expected to act like a man, i.e. predatory, while a man who wears a beard is keeping a stake in the man card- so who knows what he will do next.

The natural gossip trajectory that starts with any unusual thing and declares it strange and to be mocked or avoided. Piling on and generating good feelings by nitpicking - well - look, he has some sense, his beard is neat, but...bald- ick. Then it morphs into all sorts of speculation about the man, ascribing him all sorts of motivations, up to and including mocking trans people [uh- he is a trans people]. Perhaps he has his right to do what he pleases, but we have the right to ostracize him! Asserting that 'we' know what is ok and not for crossdressers to do. Asserting that we need to keep purity in our group norms or people won't like us as much!

Discussion turns to public celebrities like Conchita Wurst or Jacob Tobias, vs Caitlyn. Speculation- mostly negative, which, in the absence of actually asking these men what they feel, is either generously agnostic, or springs from internalized norms that demonize the 'other' in order to preserve one's sense of being on the 'right' team, affirm it publicly to others, reassert group norms, etc.

Digression on men who make sexually provocative statements to teens. How did he come into it? Oh yes- the demon in another guise.

Digression to make allowance for truly committed social activists who are trying to educate millions about gender norms. But- if you are a nobody, get in step with our POV.

I am that man. I am also Jacob and Elliot, hence standing up for myself and others like me here. Not that you asked, but I can tell you that when I am out and chatting with someone, I am just enjoying the chat, relieved and happy that my society is now stable enough and smart enough to realize I am not a freak, a danger, or even that much of an outlier. I can thank our brave celebrities for that, and the thousands of people who are coming out all over the place and claiming a right to exist without the static of ignorance.

Sure, it is everyone's right to stay ignorant, to assert group norms and bully others. I am wondering if anyone feels an urge to refer back to the golden rule. Why are so many here, who suffer at the hands of others in this way, are so confidently turning around and delivering the same punishment to someone that seems like an easy target [bald! bearded! he's not trying! he must be challenging us! ] . I even heard someone generously say that big men were ok as long as they tried to look like women.

A few point out -does anyone else see the tragic irony here? Others moderate their positions a bit. Leaders reassert the norms- " I'm sorry but these are the norms!"

Uh- really! Glad you are here to enlighten us and keep us in line. I am sympathetic. It is tough trying to create a set of norms that allow for crossdressing!

I'm confident that the only norm set that is going to actually make life better for all of us at once is to allow for free choice in presentation. Once can assert that it will never happen, but it is happening, and positive social revolution occurs when people stay the course. Fundamental personal and civil rights are perpetually under attack, as human nature, as observed from my window, is always at work trying to curtail them for various reasons!

That said, my call to everyone on this Forum is to consciously enlarge the tent. I heard many say that their chance of success as crossdressers was undermined by bearded men. That is a valid question, and worthy of discussion and gaining experimental evidence. That seems to be the core driver for the urge to ostracize the man. I can't bear to imagine that as a group we would want to splinter into competitive factions. This seems to be a critical issue for determining whether solidarity among crossdressers is justified!

HERE IS an Open invitation to any one who prides themselves on passing or at least feels that they have delivered the proper amount of respect for female norms: let's go out together, to one public place of your choosing and one of mine, where we don't know anyone, and take notes and report back here.

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, reference to Melbourne Theatre.. simple the guy we saw was standing in a crowd of people who were outside a cinema complex, sorry for the confusion. And yes I have given my opinion and yes I don't think it is a good look. Just because something is legal does not make it always acceptable. Some people believe that its the right of an individual to do what they want and that their right too. I believe that people have a level of social responsibility and as members of this community I think that the route to more general acceptance is by us showing people that although we are crossdressing, we are basically normal people.

Phill, firstly to quote you "Many who want to enforce rules for social acceptance that they find agreeable, [this is the 'if you are going to crossdress, try to pass or at least 'respect' the code of dress expected of women, harrumph'] presumably because they are successful in complying with them and like these rules! "

There is a very very big difference between trying to pass and having a well maintained beard. As someone said in another thread, facial hair is the first thing a lot of trans men aspire to? why? Because it is arguably the number one sign of Masculinity.

I have never heard of Jakob or Elliot, they are political activists not really relevant to what we are discussing here in my opinion.

End of the day 5 'normal' people walked away with a negative impression. I don't see how what they saw will one day change their view on trans people.

[mykell]

so if the first gender non conforming folks never took that first step out the door because of thoughts like yours where would you be today, because we were not thought of as normal and i assure you for the most part folks dont think that way even today. so if they never made the push to be themselves out in the "wild" in front of the "melbourne theater" would we all invariably be shut ins, because someone didnt think we were normal, and in case you missed it from phili's window..... seems kinda normal to me....ill restate my earlier comment, if we were out as dad, uncle, nephew, brother, friend, associate, those dinner time conversations would be different and "give us a route to more general acceptance by us showing people that although we are crossdressing we are basically normal people." im proud of phili and folks like them....loud and proud, in your face....and you didnt take phili up on the "open invitation" to go out together.

[pantyhoselvr kendra]

I wont go out of the house dressed while i have facial hair. Just my view for me

[Becky Blue]

Mikell, with due respect I don't agree with you. yes the first crossdressers that were seen would have been huge shock value to anyone seeing them and yes luckily today many Trans people can happily go out safely and in many places happily accepted. i don't see that one day there will be a whole lot of bearded ladies out there that society will accept as 'almost normal'.

The best part of the whole thing was how the other 5 people agreed that there was absolutely nothing wrong with a man presenting as a woman.

I did not take up Phill's tempting offer as we live in different continents, but if he throws in an airfare I would happily go out with him beard and all, just because I don't think its a good look doesn't mean i would not be seen with him.

[AllieSF]

Thanks Mikell and Phili for clearly stating the points I was trying to make here. Becky does not like to see a trans person (umbrella term) dressed in women's clothing and a beard out in public, with or without a wig. I get that and don't present like that myself. However, she is using the concept of setting back our trans cause for more acceptance for justifying her opinion that those types of people should stay home until they shave. She uses the beard factor as the determining factor and for her unacceptable (to me) reason why that person should stay the hell home, while graciously acknowledging their right to go out, even though she wants to restrict that right through her comments and position. It sounds very self serving to me.

I was the one who brought in the example of the 250 or 350 linebacker into the discussion. Even though this person's size and described obviously male mannerisms and walking style makes him no different from the bearded man example as obvious male features in the OP's initial theater siting, she continues to say that the beard is truly the only male identifier that may turn people off. Here we have a trans person presenting female in an acceptable way except for the beard. He was not poorly dressed or acting in mannerisms or loud voice in any way to shock people. He was living his life as he saw fit and not bothering others. The issues brought up in the conversation, were somewhat positive with the supposedly only truly negative being the beard. Since the OP did not pursue the conversation with some good questions to further understand their feelings since she herself is not out and from what I understand only goes out on a limited basis, she is only surmising, assuming and guessing as to what the others truly felt based on that short conversation. Who is to say that maybe that exposure to that person in the red dress and beard may not eventually help those same people start to get a true better understanding (that we are individuals and come in many shapes, sizes and presentations) of us trans people who are probably all around them without them ever knowing, and help lead them to to better tolerance and acceptance. Who says that they will even agree with the OP's premise that is bad for all the other proper presenters? I would guess that probably most of us would never have taken that first step out of the house if someone much like ourselves with very little dressing experience hadn't taken more than a few steps out of their safe sanctuaries of home. Someone had to be first and lead the way, with or without the flag.

Becky, I get where you are coming from, but, if you are so strong in your opinion that he should have stayed home if he didn't or couldn't shave, why don't you stay home until you can truly pass so as to not upset some innocent bystander in the real world? I personally don't think that you should stay home for that, and I don't that anyone should stay home for not presenting as you and others here want them to. Many of those innocent bystanders want all of us to stay home because in their minds we do not represent decent males or females. So, you believe in a yes for some and a no for others? Why not for all? We are all so different, have different skills, natural benefits or faults, freedoms or restrictions, desires, wants and needs. How can you and a few others here feel that you can set the ground rules and social norms for others. If you do not want or need the acceptance and tolerance of the non trans public out there, then endorse your restrictive views. However, if you are also looking for acceptance from others, then loosen up and give that same acceptance to others of us that are like you and different at the same time.

[Becky Blue]

Allie, where do I start?
Firstly this is an internet forum where we discuss stuff and give our opinions. My opinion does not agree with yours, that does not make it self serving. Perhaps you would have a point if I were to have gone up to the guy and told him what I think. Of course I would never do that, but I have the right to disapprove in my thoughts and opinions and I think its great that we are discussing this matter in which we clearly disagree in a logical and respectful manner.

Secondly, your analogy of the 350 LBS dresser is not the same as a beard. Most 350 LBS people are not that way out of choice and it would be extremely hard to reduce that weight if they wanted to. That is not analogous to consciously growing and maintaining a beard.

You cannot seem to discern the difference between male born characteristics and male options. If a person has large shoulders or any very male characteristics that mean they will never pass under no circumstances am I suggesting they should not be going out dressed. I am on the record saying passing is not important. I have said it numerous times and I will say it again... A beard and moustache is a conscious choice having big shoulders or a prominent adams apple is not.

You say that he was not poorly dressed, that is where we disagree I think a man in a red dress with a beard is poorly dressed and 5 other people seemed to think so too.

Thirdly, you say "The issues brought up in the conversation, were somewhat positive with the supposedly only truly negative being the beard. Since the OP did not pursue the conversation with some good questions to further understand their feelings since she herself is not out and from what I understand only goes out on a limited basis, she is only surmising, assuming and guessing as to what the others truly felt based on that short conversation" Not so, the conversation I said (I think) in the OP went for about 15 minutes, and I was able to ask some careful questions. I simply reported the net result of the discussion which was very positive and Trans people and crossdressers, but negative about the facial hair. I am not surmising not assuming nor guessing anything, I am reporting what 5 people said.

Finally, again to belabour the point that you keep making - a beard is the most male sign one can display it is an OPTIONAL sign. Being big or very masculine looking is not an option. You are putting words in my mouth by assuming by being negative to facial hair on a CD is being negative to people who can't pass - NOT SO.

[phili]

I went out today in a nice dress, stockings and heels, to about 10 stores and the local college bookstore, doing Christmas returns, buying hardware, getting coffee and sharing a table, getting advice on how to operate my phone, etc. I can unswervingly give encouragement to all who are afraid to go out with facial hair or perhaps other distinctive manly characteristics, AND extend Becky's conclusion about her 5 friends! I can say that the world I live in, and very, very likely, the world you live in, is ok with man wearing a dress and stockings and heels.

As others have noted, many I met and talked with might wonder why, and might someday even ask. But the answer was so simple, and I just showed it in my face- Looked interesting, thought I'd try it, seemed like I'd enjoy it! What do you think? No worries!"

That's enough and it is accurate. It was very peaceful, actually, since it was so normal. And that normal feeling resonates with others who are actually talking with you, as opposed to, say, speculating about you from a distance. I think it is because I am not trying to get them to do anything special. I am not struggling to have a feminine voice, which would complicate their listening. I am presenting kind of a hybrid being, and not asking for judgment on how well I am succeeding at simulating a female. There is no question for them what to call me, and Sir pops right out!

AND- most importantly as I reflect on it- everything that happened was good. I am still feeling peaceful. It met my need to have space to show myself truthfully, and be as much of a feminine being as I want to be.

[Becky Blue]

Phili, you were not visiting downunder by chance today ? A person in a blue dress with a longish beard walked right past my car this morning. Thats two bearded CD's in just under 2 weeks!!!!