Attractive, or "Meh - take it or leave it"

[Teresa]

Reine,
If I may start by my own example, when I photographed weddings I stood at the back of the church waiting for the ceremony to finish so I could start my job , I often longed to be one of the bridesmaids in their lovely dresses some may not have been the most attractive girls but the feeling was wanting to be one of the girls, I guess for people to comment on how pretty they looked. So maybe there's more to it than wanting to be a stunning one off and wear what's she's wearing.

If you turn the situation around what makes an attractive guy to women ? Using your description not many girls would be attracted to your example in guy mode, unclean, unshaven, overweight and wearing clothes that could have been taken from a scarecrow.

We all have a mental picture of our perfect woman or man , if I were a woman I'd like to look like whoever takes my fancy, I'm sure women must at times think if I were a man I'd like his body, or again whatever attracts you in a man. At times girls do crossdress in male clothes if they happen to think their male partner looks good in them. I've had instances where a GF has taken a shirt or jacket because they happen to like me in them.

Going back to your example again you do see women dressed as you describe and they have partners that are perfectly happy with them, they love them to pieces, some of us may shake our heads but that's life !

Most CDers are a fickle lot, we have to deal with the normal male to female attraction and then, there's the part of us that has it's own needs , the problem is those needs tend to change as our CDing evolves, I have French Maid outfits which I don't wear much now, my CDing has evolved with being more open and going out socially, now I'm trying to put together nice outfits that a GG is likely to wear in the same circumstances. It's really great when a GG does make a genuine comment on how nice you look.

Do I want to look like your examples, the answer is no but I try not to look like that in male mode anyway, in female mode I try and wear things that make me look good for my shape. Maybe I'm lucky that my size and shape works OK in either mode. Look back at some of the threads of members who do struggle with their size and shape I feel as sorry for them as I do to the GGs in your description, being female to them is like a mountain to climb,sadly some give up and resign themselves to the closet when they're desperate to be out and about.

[Sarah Doepner]

I puzzled over this for a while and I'm still not sure. However I thought about seeing a Guy at the library wearing baggy shorts, dirty tee, needing a shave and to comb his hair. That doesn't inspire me either, but I know there have been times I've gone to the store looking like the dogs breakfast. I don't enjoy that, but sometimes you do what you need to do and not worry about what others think. Those folks that make an impression on me are those who have taken a little time to balance being comfortable and looking like they are just a little concerned over their appearance.

I'm too old and too big to ever achieve the glamour look of models, but I can achieve something that works for me. So I while I can appreciate the situation that may have put the girl in the library or harried mom in the store looking not their best, I don't think I would strive for that look, nor would it be something that would make me want to add that look to my closet.

[Jenniferathome]

... but it doesn't make the GGs want to be the model I don't think. Also, I should think if a GG isn't in the market for an outfit, seeing a pretty model wearing a dress will not make her run out and buy it. Generally speaking. Still, my favorite type of catalog lately (and thank goodness they're coming out with more and more of them), feature regularly sized models so their customers can see what the clothes really look like.

Reine, I think this is what differentiates the cross dressers from the rest of the market. More incredibly, we're guys who see an outfit on a skinny model and then think it will look good on us! And I agree with you on the "real women" catalogs.

This is why I <3 ModCloth.

ModCloth is awesome! Rent the Runway also has posts of actual wearers of the clothes.

...So over time we each develop our likes and dislikes, or a sense of what looks good on us given our body types and what we want that item for. So when we look online or in catalogs, there might be only a few things that appeal to our personal tastes and needs. ...

..."I wanted to be her more than be with her". This sentiment really is common in this forum although of course it doesn't apply to everyone. And so my question was mostly to the CDers who do feel this way ... I wanted to know if they would feel a similar trigger when encountering quite an ordinary girl who isn't dressed in appealing clothes, like the ones I described in my OP.

Your first point is huge: knowing what looks good on you vs just wanting to buy another clothing trophy. I finally understand what my wife means when she says she's been "looking for this for months."

On your second point, I've read that here a lot as well. The answers don't surprise me but at least they are honest.

...I'm going to be honest and say when I see a women not trying to look her best I also say why what a waste I sometimes say if i were her I wouldn't wear that. ...

I think this is a really common position here as well. Generally, we cross dressers project our desire to go out on women who ARE out. For most cross dressers, being out is a rare privilege so we feel the need to make the most of it.

[~Joanne~]

I won't lie, It doesn't matter if she is a knock out or not, it's all about the clothes she is wearing especially if she is wearing hosiery and heels because she wanted to look her best and not go with the flow of things. Does it trigger me wanting to dress? yes it does. does it make me want to go buy what she is wearing? not really but I guess that all depends on if it is purple or not lol

I become more envious of her freedom more than anything else though. Women have total freedom to dress as they please without a word being said to the contrary and as much as we say we have the same freedom we all know that's not totally true no matter how many times we say it is. I would love to walk through a mall or somewhere dressed really nicely and not a word or whisper being said but that is highly unlikely to ever happen.

[Melissa Rose]

Reine, this is an excellent question.

About 4 years ago and slightly before ramping up our respective transitions, I was out with another member of this forum (Badtranny) and she posed a very similar question. There was a large group of women ranging from pretty and well dressed to more "plain" and overweight as compared to the others and less attractive by most societal standards. She asked would you still be one of those women versus one of the more attractive ones. We both answered without hesitation, yes. While it would be nice and desirable to be one of the more pretty women, all we wanted was to be a woman. It was not about the appearance but the essence of being a woman even if far from societal measures of beauty and attractiveness.

For the past three years I have been working in nearly or all female (me included) office work environments. What I enjoy and cherish the most is not being able to "dress up", but the friendships and sense of belonging. In my experiences, friendship between women and friendships between men have a different character. I am blessed with some awesome close friends, and it is our closeness and openness that I value the most. A few know I am trans and others do not, but from what I can tell, it has not made a difference. This is just one example where it is not about looking feminine or appearing as a woman, pretty or not, but about being a woman even if it comes with being far from the feminine ideal. Yes, I would love to be pretty and attractive, but it is (was) not a requirement.

[Amy Lynn3]

Reine, I want to be you in every way. You are smart, good looking and about the right age, so what is not to like about you ? I think for the average cder we have in mind the woman we want to dress/be. I think our thoughts gravitate to the more attractive women, for the most part, because they take a little extra time to look their best. That is why all the pictures of cder's here try to look the best they possibly can. Dare I ask, why should we want to look frumpy ?

Now, about the frumpy dressed gg's. I look at every woman and attempt to find something about her that I like. For example, she may have a nice figure, but her hair looks like a wind storm did it up for her. So I would love to have her figure, but not her hair. Her feet and shoes may be things I adore, but not the complete woman for example. I see some women with a bigger bottom and the rest of her should have stayed at home. However, I see VPL's on her and I like that.

Without going on forever I will conclude, by saying. I would love to be the runway model and could wear her cloths, but reality is always in my mine, so I know I could only look like the average gal on the street and I would be satisfied with that.

[ReineD]

Thanks for all your answers everyone! (And thanks for the compliment Amy Lynn)

I promise though, I am not obsessed on looks and I am not down on myself for my looks or someone who is considered to be not good looking.

No Gendermutt, I didn't take it that way at all. I just wondered if nondescript women would cause this feeling as much as women that you and other CDers have found appealing. Hope you didn't take the fact that I quoted you personally. I just saw your words and remembered all the other similar posts, and so I decided to ask the question.

If you turn the situation around what makes an attractive guy to women ? Using your description not many girls would be attracted to your example in guy mode, unclean, unshaven, overweight and wearing clothes that could have been taken from a scarecrow.

But we can't turn the situation around, because when women see an attractive guy, his appearance doesn't trigger a desire to go home present as a male. So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

[Marguarite]

Reine,
My first thought is no matter what the GG looked like, I could work with that. I'd trade bodies, become the woman and work towards
what I would want to look like. After all, what I am working with now is not great and I will never be where I want to be.
I found it interesting that the only response that I agreed the most with, was Melissa Rose, who is trans. I have not admitted to myself
exactly where in this diverse community my feelings align.

[Katie83]

Interesting question. For me it is more about the style rather than the attractiveness. No, I wouldn't want to be the unattractive, overweight frumpy mother in baggy burp stained clothes. The issue I have with that image is the choice of style and lack of effort for their appearance. Everyone can make the best of what they have male or female. As a male there are things I wouldn't choose about my features, loosing my hair and my nose to name a couple. But these things don't mean I have to over eat, where dirty clothes and look generally messy all the time. Everyone has the option to make the best of what they have. So, I wouldn't be the flustered mother, I would want to be the neat, well dressed mother. Attractiveness doesn't come into it for me.

[Michelle colson]

Reine, I know you asked about visual stimuli but I had a thought on audio as well. I work in a large building with a high percentage of young women in it. My office sits off a main corridor that is hard tile. As a result I hear the sound of heels clicking by off and on all day. There are days I hear that sound and it puts me in a cding mood just as much as seeing a young lady in a dress would.

[Sara Jessica]

Reine, this is an excellent question.

I couldn't agree more!!!

There was a large group of women ranging from pretty and well dressed to more "plain" and overweight as compared to the others and less attractive by most societal standards. She asked would you still be one of those women versus one of the more attractive ones. We both answered without hesitation, yes. While it would be nice and desirable to be one of the more pretty women, all we wanted was to be a woman. It was not about the appearance but the essence of being a woman even if far from societal measures of beauty and attractiveness.

This is a huge litmus test if one is being honest with themselves about how their own degree of trans. Melissa is wise and you are as well to share this example with everyone.

You are fortunate to find such fulfillment in what looks like a complete socialization as a female. That is worth more than looks any day of the week.

My heart aches for women who would ridicule their own body image. I'd trade for their "flaws" any day of the week, particularly if it came with the opportunity to grow up socialized as a female. To me, that loss is more important than the thought of a forty-something transition. Flawed logic, I suppose. I'm focusing on what I cannot have instead of what the future could hold. Still, I have come to the conclusion that an alternate future as a female when compared with the one I am currently faced with is not all that desirable at this time, partially because of those things I can never experience.

Interesting question. For me it is more about the style rather than the attractiveness. No, I wouldn't want to be the unattractive, overweight frumpy mother in baggy burp stained clothes. The issue I have with that image is the choice of style and lack of effort for their appearance. Everyone can make the best of what they have male or female...So, I wouldn't be the flustered mother, I would want to be the neat, well dressed mother. Attractiveness doesn't come into it for me.

Nicely said Katie. I emphasized the "female" in your discussion and couldn't agree with you more.

Thing is, changing what we were dealt with is not particularly easy. It isn't that one might have a less than ideal body shape or attractiveness when it comes of self-image. Instead, those things are not easily modified and maintained.

It isn't simply about losing weight. There are things when it comes to frame, build, etc. that just cannot be changed. Kind of like in our world how we often struggle against frame, build, height, foot size, hand size, etc. And women are less likely to resort to padding it up or squeezing it down as many in our community are inclined to do in order to meet a perceived ideal.

Regardless, there is something to be said about having a sense of style. It isn't all that time consuming once you get over the learning curve and it can be embraced by anyone. It certainly is noticed when done well!!!

[Ressie]

But we can't turn the situation around, because when women see an attractive guy, his appearance doesn't trigger a desire to go home present as a male. So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

Actually, seeing a woman dressed in public has never been a trigger for me to go home and cross dress. I never even knew that other crossdressers dressed for that reason.

[Rhonda Jean]

I don't think I want to "be" the woman in the way you're asking. I certainly see women I'm a bit jealous of all the time. That has to do with more than just their clothes. As to the less attractive or not so well dressed, I don't want to "be" to any degree.

I do take style/dress/makeup cues from women I find attractive. More so with hairstyles, back when I had long hair. Second to hair would be makeup. Clothes come in third, because I basically know what looks good on me, and I can't get away with everything I find attractive on another woman. I often go off on little tangents. A couple of years ago I was obsessed with finding a long summer dress. I had seen several women in them, and they looked so comfortable and effortless. I was on a mission to find one equally effortless for myself. I quickly found out that it was harder to find a long dress that I looked good in than it was most anything I'd ever worn. I finally found a couple that were suitable, but not to the level I expected. They were not forgiving at all!!! This little obsession had little or nothing to do with wanting to "be " the women I saw wearing them.

Back in the dark ages when I had hair down to the middle of my back and I was married, we had a neighbor about our age who had hair about the same length as mine. She always wore her hair over one shoulder. I thought her hair was gorgeous, and I loved the way that showed it off. I started wearing my hair that way all the time, until my (then accepting) wife laid down the law. She knew who I was emulating, and that didn't fly. Still, I didn't want to "be" her at all.

[Melissa Rose]

You are fortunate to find such fulfillment in what looks like a complete socialization as a female. That is worth more than looks any day of the week.

Sara, you are beyond 100% correct and I could not have said it any better. The day I knew I "made it" was when a female co-worker asked to share a room for an upcoming overnight company function. That meant so much more than any prior or subsequent comments such as that's a pretty dress, love your hair or you look especially great today. I love a compliment as much as the next person, but feeling accepted means so much more and it continues to happen. So if you are finding yourself more or solely interested in the gender expression aspects (i.e., external) and how that makes you feel, you are probably more on the cross dresser side of the trans spectrum. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but, as Sara mentioned, it is a good litmus test IMHO.

This has been a great thread.

[Taylor186]

do the type of women that I've described above (the girl in the library and the harried mom) make you long to be them.

Like Ronda, I don't want to 'be' the attractive woman I see who is dressed stylishly, but I might think I wish I looked more like that person or I might wish I could rock that outfit the way she rocks that outfit. I would need to know much more about someone before I would actually think about trading places, not that that is possible.

And to answer your question specifically, I never long to be or emulate a plain or unattractive woman, (or man for that matter).

As Meredith I would not want to be a woman if I didn't pass completely and like GM I don't want to be a women just to be a woman.

[Georgette_USA]

Reine

Liked your question. Put me in the fully transitioned to woman for 40 years now.

When I was young and thinking on all this. I would have traded places with either woman. I have always felt I was a plain looking woman, but that is what RLE is for, to see if you can pass as just another woman. But others that have seen older pics, and one that actually knew and saw me back then, they claim I was pretty don't see it myself.

Thru my own personal problems, ended up that overweight and plain clothes woman. I have lost some weight, and have changed my clothing styles. Like that some places that deal with "PLUS" size woman, are using others to show that WE come in all sizes and shapes.

Never was big on the idea of being a mother, but if that could happen I could live with that also.

[Tina_gm]

ReineD, I know you are not singling me out. I wanted to give an honest answer. I do also want people to know I am not a superficial scumbag. I love the thought provoking threads. I also try to keep it real, and not just come up with a feel good answer too.

I remember a co worker saying to me shortly after I got remarried well, you are married now, you can let it all go, no need to have to try to impress anyone. I replied nope, that's not me. I m always going to be dressed decent, well groomed, and not eat like a slob. I would rather be dead than give up. It's about me feeling good about me. I see a lot on here say they don't put much effort in guy mode. I do. I really don't think it's conceited to want to look decent. It saddens me to see fewer and fewer young people give effort to their appearance. I hope it's a trend that will reverse itself. Back in the 80s, even the guys spent a lot of time getting ready to go out. There were quite a few of us who were fire hazards with hair spray lol. I miss those days.

[Michelle (Oz)]

Saw a mid teens girl and her friend while having lunch with a GG friend last Friday. She was the epitome of what I'd want to have looked like if I was young and female - long blond hair, slim sporty figure in a simple but stylish dress. Envious? Yep, 3 envies actually - age, looks and female. "Aren't we all" was my friend's response. In both our cases, admiration and envy are quite different to wanting to be her.

Yes, looks are important to me and guide my dressing style. I am happy being the female I see in the mirror.

[Lori Kurtz]

The fetish aspect of crossdressing is the biggest part of what it was all about for me. I loved being a curvaceous woman who was proud of her body and wore tight short skirts and tight tops to show it off. Seeing any such woman was a trigger for me. As a male, I found that the visual stimulus would fill me with desire to have her (as Mother Nature intended). But as a crossdresser, I would also experience the desire to look like that, and to make other men feel the way she made me feel (and I don't know what the heck Mother Nature thinks of that). Now that I'm into my 70s, I still enjoy the appearance of women (and men who make themselves look like women), but I am not likely to become an active dresser again, because I can't possibly make myself look the way I used to. In many cases, women my own age or close to it can be attractive, but somehow, the sexual element of the attraction isn't so strong, and fails to fuel my crossdressing urges. Likewise for otherwise average-looking women of any age. I might find such a woman attractive in a way, based on personality or sense of humor or whatever, but there is no powerful sexual charge, and no triggering of an urge to dress up. I still have crossdressing fantasies, but at this point that's all in my head (and ... well, in another part of my body too), but it doesn't involve any actual feminine garments.

[LelaK]

A pretty face (with hair instead of a bald head) would seem to be enough to satisfy me, since I could then deal with the rest, i.e. dressing and reshaping. Pimples wouldn't be a big deal, if they didn't spoil the prettiness. It would only be to please myself, not others (Our bodies are like our vehicles; we often want them to look nice). I think I want to look like a loving person.

UPDATE:
I just noticed Reine followed up saying,

So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

Seeing an attractive woman sometimes gives me the thought of looking like her, but it doesn't seem to give me the urge to dress. Opportunity is what seems to give me that urge, meaning mainly when I'm home in my room. If I were with an accepting person or persons, I'd probably get the urge to dress then as well.

[heatherdress]

I am a crossdresser. I never long to be anyone else. I enjoy being me. But I do try to look attractive and sexy when I dress. I do not relate to simply wanting to be or look unattractive or overweight or frumpy just to be female. It would not interest me in any way. Why would anyone want to look unattractive?

[Teresa]

Heatherdress,
You raise the old question of wanting to be attractive and sexy but who to ?

As I said in my previous reply we may be being unkind to people aren't as attractive and maybe don't make the same effort, for various reasons they don't feel good about themselves, that's something most CDers don't experience, but these people often have partners that still love them and are happy as they are .

[Jenniferathome]

Reine, when I see an attractive woman, I notice her because I am a dude and I am seeing her, not her clothes.

I do not want to "be" her, ever. IF that attractive woman is well dressed and her style nears mine, I will take notice of how she put some outfit together. Now, a great outfit is a great outfit regardless of the attractiveness of the wearer. That's true on models (I don't think all are attractive), just way too many disaffected stares or "hereon-chique" looks and it's equally true of women in public. I will notice a great outfit and try to make a mental note if I have similar things I can put together.

[EllieOPKS]

I think this is an absurd question. No offense intended but seriously, who would look at a train wreck and say I would like to emulate that. Why anyone, male or female would go out in public like that baffles me other than they just don't care. A passing glance is all that its worth. I accept anybody on face value, if they are good with that then that's all that matters but I would never be that way in drab or drag. From my own personal aspect I see it much like I look at a pro golfer that spends more time drunk in the spotlight than he does sober. He has a chance to live my dream and is blowing it.

[NicoleScott]

Easy answer for me. I'm a male-identity crossdresser even when transformed, so I never wish to be female, no matter how attractive. I've seen plenty of women I would like to "be", but only in my fantasies or for the duration of a dressup session. Whether cd or gg, who wouldn't prefer attractive over unattractive?
Like the reincarnation and do-over threads, the answer to the question should give a strong clue to who/what we are. Would you choose to be born female without conditions? Unattractive, heavy, under oppressive cultures?