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Thread: Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

  1. #101
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Part two

    Quote Originally Posted by CassandraSmith View Post
    An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.
    I'm saying this with kindness: I appreciate that you enjoy being feminine, but you're idealizing what a woman's life is. I was not pampered and cared for, and neither are the many divorced women/single mothers in our country who struggle to make ends meet with not enough child support money. No one buys them nice things and takes them away for nice vacations, or does their heavy chores. Also, women can't be emotional on the job any more than men can. If they are, they'll be seen as not able to cope and they'll get passed over for promotions. We women must also be strong for our children. Kids are able to understand when either dad or mom are sad, but it's hard on them to see either parent cry.

    As to being taken sexually, this is a fun fantasy if she's into it with a loving partner. But, it's not fun when it's "slam bam thank you ma'am" and he habitually ignores her emotional needs, which happens more than you care to imagine in long term marriages, or when she is raped which also happens a lot in this country and throughout the world, or when she is treated horribly in an abusive marriage and treated even worse in parts of the world where her gender role is seen as legally and socially beneath a man's position. Just saying, it's not all roses. Both genders have equally their advantages and disadvantages, and not one gender is preferable to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by GroovyChristy View Post
    Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man.
    I agree with all your points except this one. Woman's beauty vs. man's is not absolute. I suspect that I see much greater beauty in men than you do. This is not just sexual. There's something about a man's essence that compliments my own and that I feel is immensely attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambergold43 View Post
    I don't deny the reality of the trans-community, and I don't claim to understand the unimaginable hardships associated with being a transsexual person. However, gender IS a fluid spectrum as you say, so how then can someone be a trans-anything when the line between genders is so blurry to begin with? To me, trans-anything seems to reinforce a binary definition of gender.

    I think we associate images and characteristics with "inherent" traits, which leads us to name those feelings that we don't associate with male-ness as female. So yes, I believe that some people may be more comfortable expressing those feminine virtues that you mentioned if they look and feel the part. It's like getting into character for a play - after all, gender is nothing but a performance anyway.
    I have to say that your understanding of gender and gender issues is remarkable!! You're voicing something that is difficult for many people in this community and among cisgenders to understand. You're not by any chance a sociologist are you?

    I'm very happy for your participation in this thread.

    There are so many CDers who believe or at least who say that they are women, once they realize that dressing is more than sexually motivated, or when they develop a sort of obsession with it even if this lasts several years. And it can take years and perhaps broken marriages before they realize that gender is not binary and they do, in fact, fit somewhere in the middle. The actual incidence of true transsexuality is quite rare, and it is evident among small children who are adamant, before they begin grade school, that they are not the gender their parents say they are. And also among some people who discover this a little later, but who are just as adamant about who they are and they never veer from this certainty. This doesn't mean there aren't people who start out sexually during their teenage years and who eventually modify their bodies partially hrough HRT and perhaps small breast growth, but who choose to not take it all the way. Or, those who do go ahead with SRS but who discover their life is not what they thought it would be, since transition did not "make" them a woman and they do not feel any differently than they felt before. Or who discover after having lived years as women, that finding long term partners as transwomen is a great deal more difficult than originally anticipated, and this can be devastating if this was an important reason to transition. We need so much education in this community and I wish there was a way to help people get a better handle on their feelings of gender non-conformity. It might save many marriages and many future disappointments.

    This part of the discussion isn't directly related to the CDers who do not wish to examine any personal gender non-conformity (or who do not wish to say that dressing is sexually motivated, or a non-sexual compulsion ... if this is the case). But, I've often wondered if the inability to recognize a gender state that is in between being traditionally male and traditionally female is made more difficult by all the CDers who insist that they are traditionally female when the dressing stops being sexual for them. It's as if it has to be either black or white, with nothing in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    there are a lot of people who will fall apart if we push them too hard, and be forced to accept the reality of why they crossdress. We're brought up brainwashed by our parents and society to believe certain things; and our entire reality is based on our beliefs.
    This may indeed be the strongest motive for not wanting to examine the deeper reasons for crossdressing, no matter what the reasons are: whether it is recognizing inner gender non-conformity, or recognizing that it is a fetish, or even that it is a compulsion. Being gender non-conforming can be scary since people think it "must" mean they are women. There's also a great deal of negative bias against any type of fetish in our society. And, everyone knows that compulsions or addictions are not healthy if they are taken too far and to admit to one might mean having to taking steps to stop doing something that is pleasurable.
    Last edited by ReineD; 01-29-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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    Smile I'd like this post to not be merged because I think it is important

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythos View Post
    But, that being said.....why does it matter? Why let this bug you?
    It doesn't bug me, Pythos.

    The discussion is an attempt to move forward as a community in terms of common and individual understanding. We've had a lot of similar threads over the years, and if you were to go back and read what members wrote five years ago compared to now, you'd see that overall, people's understanding of themselves and their ability to communicate who they are, what they need, and what it takes to navigate the cross-gender expression successfully in relationships has improved tremendously.

    And this, everyone, is what it will take in order to move forward as a community into the mainstream, and obtain wider recognition and acceptance. Crossdressers cannot expect people to understand what they're all about if they don't probe enough to understand it themselves.
    Last edited by ReineD; 01-29-2013 at 07:54 AM.
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  3. #103
    Silver Member Joanne f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses

    Joanne, If I were to dress in clothing that most people would recognize as men's clothes (real men's clothes ), I'd stress myself out! I wouldn't want people to think me odd, and this is because I'm not gender non-conforming. If I were, then the benefits of self-expression would far outweigh the potential negatives of other people's judgments..
    Yes I can understand that and that is why a none Cd/Tg will ever understand that sometimes the simplest of reasons are quite often the only reasons and I doubt that you have ever been on the receiving end of other peoples negative judgements, I have and it is not pleasant it can scar you mentally , I have a 25 cm real scar and I would much prefer that than what society can throw at you when you are considered to be not normal so I can well understand why you do not understand why we do it ,it just feels normal and to actually feel normal I guess that you have to experience not feeling normal so put on those men's clothe's for a day then when you go back to your normal clothe's you will have some idea of what it is like
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    I actually have been on the receiving end of bias. I won't get into it here, but I've had people whisper behind my back and some stopped wanting to have anything to do with me (or their kids have anything to do with mine) when they discovered that I was in recovery for an addiction, even when it had been years. I was seen as an "undesirable" by a select group of unenlightened and ignorant people. I was able to blow it off eventually, but this was very difficult in the beginning.

    Anyway, I know what you meant by wearing women's clothes because it feels normal to you. This is because it is a part of who you are. You are not saying that you dress just because you like the colors and the fabrics. But you also said that the reason GGs "like to wear certain types of clothing" is that it makes us feel normal too. I was pointing out that wearing certain clothes (the prettier things?) doesn't make us feel any more normal than wearing different clothes (the not so feminine things?), or than we feel when we are naked.
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    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    I think for a small group here it is just the clothes. When you add fake boobs, makeup and a woman's wig I believe there is more to it. It is a transformation! I see a lot of denial here. I wanted to know why and found there was much more to it for me. I know most Cder's are not TS but there is more to it. We have men here transforming into looking like women and getting extreme pleasure from it but don't question their masculinity or call some transgender.

    Not being critical here because I have been there done that.
    Last edited by Marleena; 01-29-2013 at 10:17 AM.

  6. #106
    Aspiring Member Fran Moore's Avatar
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    And this, everyone, is what it will take in order to move forward as a community into the mainstream, and obtain wider recognition and acceptance. Crossdressers cannot expect people to understand what they're all about if they don't probe enough to understand it themselves.


    This is exactly why I value your opinions and input here Reine. Thankyou.
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    Part Time Lesbian Diva CassandraSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I'm saying this with kindness:
    It's OK but I'm really certain on this. I watched my mom struggle with everything you're talking about and I would still take that life over mine as a guy. In fact, my mom, has dealt with all of it really raising me as a single parent. I'm not glamourizing the life of women but if you knew my life, you would see that I'm not fantasizing about this stuff. Life as a woman would be about 100 times as fulfilling for who I am.

    I do deal with it as a loss of sorts. There's two kinds of loss and the other is not getting the things we needed. I'm not talking about wanted, I'm talking about needed. The grieving processing involves anger and coming to terms with it too and I've done a lot of work in therapy on this stuff for several years. BTW, this has nothing to do with regret and many people are confused about this. Grieving is absolutely necessary to travel through and I suspect is the final frontier for a lot of CDers as they find their way to their true selves. I don't think that anyone here is doing this flippantly; we all know that there's something profoundly different about us from regular people even if it's just a pair of panties and a bra for some.

    Please understand that I know myself pretty well at this point and what's real for me.

    On the bright side, my ministry at church has bridged this gap quite a bit and I have responsibilities there that I love. In that environment, my feminine side (carefully presented) is allowed to emerge and it's been like heaven. I told them that I was weird when they asked me to join and I said I wouldn't go into detail but that I'm definitely different. I talked to them quite a while before committing to them and they've made it clear that I'm accepted. This is a first though as I've never really allowed anyone to get that close in quite that way before. I work with a leader who is a very tomboyish and attractive lady also and we fit well together (though she is not my type to date and she's married already).
    Last edited by CassandraSmith; 01-29-2013 at 02:04 PM.

  8. #108
    I just Love being a Gurl! bobbimo's Avatar
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    WOW Freddie, that's the shortest email I've ever seen you write!
    But I fully appreciate Reine's wonder. My wife is the same way, and there are millions more out there that cant give a definitive answer either.
    I enjoy dressing because its a wonderful DIY project. I love fixing things and making wrecks become functional.
    The feeling of picking out an outfit, doing make up, hair, shoes and jewelry, and being happy with the reflection in the mirror is just amazing.
    The only close experience I can relate, is when I drive my old Mazda PU, it serves its purpose and there is no hurry, or much fun in going down a long wide stretch of highway. However give the same stretch of highway in my Vette.... well the road just has to be driven!
    For me dressing is a drive in my Vette, makes me smile and what a thrill.
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    MIDI warrior princess Amy Fakley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    wearing certain clothes (the prettier things?) doesn't make us feel any more normal than wearing different clothes (the not so feminine things?), or than we feel when we are naked.
    You do not need a visual aid to connect with that inner part of yourself. Whatever the heck you want to wear is what you wear. You have complete freedom of choice to the point where the choice doesn't even remotely matter.

    Many of the people here (myself included obviously), are disconnected from a part of ourselves that ... while maybe it's always with us in some ways, is not present in the foreground unless we have this symbolic conduit of crossdressing. Speaking of sociology, I imagine this is similar in concept to totems and war paint, and primitive masks, etc.

    Accessing that conduit is strictly forbidden by our society at large. There are irreversible, severe consequences if the wrong people know ... so to me ... I cannot even imagine having the freedom of expression you're talking about above, literally it's so foreign to my experience, it just doesn't compute.

    that's ... like ... a nugget right at the heart of my experience of this hot mess that I thought worthy of inclusion in this already unbelievably long thread :-)
    "Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir

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    Silver Member ClosetED's Avatar
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    The purpose of the forums, in my opinion, are to allow open discussion. ReineD did that very well by putting forth a comment that many felt a strong desire to comment on in a short period. While no answer applies to all, there were many agreeing with many of the points she hoped to have a discussion on, that both established and new members can benefit from. Not everyone wants to dig deep into understanding but others do, for themselves and to allow them to better explain themselves to others. I wear silky Jockey underwear for men, but it does not have the same meaning to me to connect to the internal feelings. If it is just the feeling of the clothing, then why wigs and makeup? Why do some start with one item and progress to more and more to look more completely like a woman? Does the power to reach that inner person fade and more tokens of femininity are required as sexual gratification desires fade? I am not making any statements that those are truths - just putting forth concepts that some will agree with and others will not. To each his own but hopefully some will take away a bit of self-awareness that were looking for.

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    With all of this this mind, I'd like to state that I don't even subscribe to the term "Crossdresser", as it DOES imply that the motivations lie primarily in the wearing of clothing -- it fails to capture the feelings I experience and express. I prefer "part-time t-girl" or "gender-fluid" to "crossdresser" by a large margin. Someone could enjoy "cross dressing" without presenting themselves as a woman, in fact, one could reappropriate and recontextualize articles of feminine clothing in such a way that they might even emphasize a type of virility. "Cross dressing" can be as simple as wearing a skirt instead of pants or wearing a woman's suit for the look of it. "Cross dressing" can also imply a simple fetishism, the enjoyment of an experience arising from association with the article of clothing, BUT I do not feel it applies entirely to people like me. I never introduce myself as a "crossdresser". Reine is merely suggesting that most members of this forum are unlikely to belong to the bare-minimal category of those who "simply like the cut of a woman's suit" or "think earrings look cool with the rest of [their] outfit". I don't know if I've found many people here who belong to that category, so I'm in agreement. I agree with ClosetED that a wig and makeup would be unnecessary to those whose purpose was neither transgender or theatrical as well. It makes little sense to take certain steps without a general purpose.
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    Member CD Kelley's Avatar
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    Thanks for starting this thread Reine. Eight month ago my wife asked "why women's cloths" and I have been on a quest for answers ever since. This thread is full of great ideas, reasons and theories. I believe at least for me that the answer is to complicated for just one answer. I think I can apply several of the thoughts in this thread to explain why I dress and why only clothes made for women will do.
    The minute you think of giving up think of the reason you held on for so long

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    maybe it make me high. don't know, feel a need, a pulling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

    Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?
    Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation? If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something? Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest? Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?

    A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people. No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"?
    I can't speak to this from personal experience, since I'm not closeted (except to my workplace), and I have experienced none of these problems.

    But history is full of people to whom some interest or desire, whether it be painting, cataloging earthworms, climbing some mountain, or whatever, was so important that they were willing to suffer rejection or abuse to do it. Obviously, the more negative the consequences for pursuing your dream/living your truth, the more important it has to be to you. I don't see why "wearing women's clothes" is fundamentally so different.

    At some point, I find this refusal to believe that people could know their own mind better than some stranger who knows nothing about them except what they see in a post a little condescending. It's a widespread attitude here at CD.com (and elsewhere), and most of the people who display it are nowhere near as decent about it as ReineD.

    And, since I'm a bit irritated by this, why don't I just play turn-about with this if-I-don't-feel-it-it-must-not-be-real attitude:

    Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)

    It's a neat theory: it explains what I see here at CD.com, it doesn't require any gender essentialism, and it agrees with my experience of myself, so it must be true. The fact that it may not agree with other people's experience of themselves doesn't matter, because obviously if I don't see it, it must be because they just don't have enough insight, not because my experience isn't universally applicable.

    A bit snarky, perhaps, but at some point I get tired of people's assumption that their lack of imagination is my problem to solve. FWIW, it's something I practically never encounter in Real Life (except from the "mental health" profession), but see a lot of here at CD.com.
    Last edited by Asche; 01-29-2013 at 09:35 PM.

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    Again, to be fair to Reine, she's not attributing cross dressing to a "deep, psychological disturbance", Asche. She is, instead, inquiring as to whether or not there is a psychological causality to cross dressing, which is quite far from pathologizing the behavior, as ALL human actions have some sort of psychological, neurological, or biological cause -- to pretend that they didn't would be to deny causality. If I were to ask the scientific question "Why is x a homosexual? What are the biological and environmental interactions which lead to homosexuality?", I would not be treating it as an illness, I would be making an attempt to better understand human sexuality. To play Devil's advocate with you a bit, why would someone believe that women's clothes are simply nicer? We've addressed the potential tactile motivations for having such a belief, and Reine is quite correct in claiming that all fabrics which are found in women's clothing can also be found in men's clothing. Silk, cashmere, you name it -- it's there for purchase. This rules out a simple tactile motivation. We may claim that an individual prefers women's fashion, that they simply like the look that feminine clothes evince, but what is fashion but an expression of the self? A social and personal signal we use to communicate and feel at ease with our identities? No one who specifically invests effort in fashion does so without having an expressive motivation. So why would these individuals who wear feminine articles of clothing, if they are purely feminine and cannot be imagined to express virility in any context, wear them if not for the purpose of donning a symbol of those things typically associated with femininity? Why adopt the feminine garb if you are not attempting to express the feminine. I think in all of our "jump-the-gun", "I'm-going-to-take-offense-at-anything-which-delves-beyond-this-comfortable-surface" mentality, we've rejected rational thinking.

    I will offer you ONE alternative: theatrics and/or the challenge of making one's self look like a woman.

    That is all I can see as a motivation excluding the feminine, HOWEVER, there are other means for theatrical behavior as well, so why choose femininity? I would have jumped at the opportunity to play, say, Ophelia, in a traditional all-male Shakespeare production, as I both love acting AND being feminine. In my earlier days, I would have preferred it because it would give me an excuse. Everything has a purpose, that doesn't make it sick or wrong, it makes it an intentional human action.
    Last edited by SarahMarie42; 01-29-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something?
    Dave, what is it that you like about stamp collecting? It looks boring to me. Bob, why do you like skiing instead of snowboarding? Jane, how did you come to like the guitar instead of the piano or the electric triangle?

    Seem like questions I might ask.... and it is not a DEMAND, it's a question. How does anyone learn about another if you don't ask questions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahMarie42 View Post
    [Reine] ... is, instead, inquiring as to whether or not there is a psychological causality to cross dressing, which is quite far from pathologizing the behavior, as ALL human actions have some sort of psychological, neurological, or biological cause -- to pretend that they didn't would be to deny causality.
    Your hypothesis applies equally to stamp collecting. But I don't see a lot of people asking for deeper explanations of why people like to collect stamps. Or not considering "I just like it" as a sufficient explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SarahMarie42 View Post
    If I were to ask the scientific question "Why is x a homosexual? What are the biological and environmental interactions which lead to homosexuality?", I would not be treating it as an illness, I would be making an attempt to better understand human sexuality.
    However, if you the scientist have grown up with the idea that there is something unnatural and pathological about homosexuality, you are going to end up posing the question and interpreting your results from a pathologizing perspective without realizing you are doing it. And since the society you are operating in sees the unnaturalness of homosexuality as being as obvious and unquestionable as 1+1=2, your "results" -- whatever they are -- are going to be interpreted as showing that there's something wrong with homosexuals. I'm not theorizing here: I'm describing most of the scientific research on the subject at least up through the 1970's, and the express belief of a substantial minority of the mental health profession even today.

    Because of these experiences, a lot of gay people are distrustful of any such research.

    BTW: how much scientific research is done to figure out why heterosexuals are heterosexual? Fairly little: because being heterosexual isn't seen as needing an explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SarahMarie42 View Post
    why would someone believe that women's clothes are simply nicer?
    Why would someone prefer Chopin to LIszt?

    Why would someone like blue better than green?

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    Let's see, I'm going to respond briefly and systematically.

    1. Anyone interested in stamp collecting would ask a question about stamp collecting to determine why someone would do it, perhaps in an exercise to determine the causes of symbolic collecting -- it would answer several questions as to how human beings relate to inanimate objects semiotically

    2. People do ask generally how sexual behavior comes to develop and what influences it -- it's just that LGBT behavior, in being less common, is more interesting to many as an area of study -- particularly when there ARE several people who consider it a debauched personal decision. Demonstrating how homosexuality is developmentally and expressively different from being, say, transgendered, helps to clear up a lot of societal misconceptions and conflations.

    Secondly, if you believe that a suggestion is "pathological" because it involves a connection with something commonly considered "immoral", you may be the one doing the moralizing -- not the scientist. The scientist would only be moralizing if he/she agreed with greater society on a given moral judgment toward the act or intention.

    3. I prefer Chopin to Lizst because I find that I more easily relate to contemplative music than I do vigorous, throbbing music expressive of pure passion and power :] It's part of my personality, which could itself be defined in terms of biological and environmental interactions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    I think for a small group here it is just the clothes. When you add fake boobs, makeup and a woman's wig I believe there is more to it. It is a transformation! I see a lot of denial here. I wanted to know why and found there was much more to it for me. I know most Cder's are not TS but there is more to it. We have men here transforming into looking like women and getting extreme pleasure from it but don't question their masculinity or call some transgender.

    Not being critical here because I have been there done that.
    In short, Marleena, I tend to agree. When it's limited, sure, but when it goes beyond that, it's something else, although I won't say it's "one" thing.

    At the risk of annoying people (and fairly), I do think there's denial, and to answer Reine's original question, I think that's part of it. However, the general rule is one shouldn't "out" other people, as it can have bad results. Not that I'm saying anything about specific people! It's just a general sense. And it's possible there are other causes.

    It's also true that it was thought bisexual people were really gay but in denial, so maybe it's not what we think it is; maybe it's something else, whatever those options might be.

    However, to those critical of Reine's original question, this is one of the most common questions asked by CD'ers of various forms here. It's an obsession with many. Of course, that's why some are tired of it :P

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I'm saying this with kindness: I appreciate that you enjoy being feminine, but you're idealizing what a woman's life is. I was not pampered and cared for, and neither are the many divorced women/single mothers in our country who struggle to make ends meet with not enough child support money. No one buys them nice things and takes them away for nice vacations, or does their heavy chores. Also, women can't be emotional on the job any more than men can. If they are, they'll be seen as not able to cope and they'll get passed over for promotions. We women must also be strong for our children. Kids are able to understand when either dad or mom are sad, but it's hard on them to see either parent cry.
    This is a good point. I think most people do realize this, but occasionally, one hears this as a motivation. One has to say, it might be a surprise. For some people, of course, female expectations might be a better match for their personality than male expectations, but there's a whole battery of problems one isn't aware of. The shock of not being ready for that is a problem some people face.

  21. #121
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    Wow, this thread has really grown. Ambergold, I am sorry if I seemed to have contradicted myself, or if I really have done so. Yes, gender is a spectrum. I think that at the extreme ends of this spectrum can be found examples which, when compared to each other, would seem to display a binary. For example, take Hulk Hogan for an example of the extreme masculine side of the spectrum (absurd I know, but he's all I could think of at the moment) and say, Audrey Hepburn at the extreme feminine end.

    Now, I think it's certainly possible that a female could occupy the Hulk Hogan side and that a male could occupy the Audrey Hepburn side as I, too, believe that gender has its basis more in cultural construction than in truth. However, the binary which the two examples could suggest is given great power by its being accepted by society at large, even though its transparency becomes obvious once you consider the people who fall closer to the middle of the spectrum. I admit that I can forget to do this and so the false binary can seem more real. I'm afraid I replied to you a little excitedly, as I was taken aback by the idea that my "cross dressing" (and I agree with SarahMarie's thoughts on the term) is just an attempt to shirk my social expectations as a male. You may be right that it is like that for some, but for me it is much deeper. I had no male societal obligations as a small child. I was allowed to play with Barbies, try on my mom's shoes, etc. and was never encouraged to play sports or any such thing that I was not interested in. But this absence of male expectations for me begs the question, why did I feel such sad longing when I was told at an early age what my name would have been if I was born a girl? And then of course, what does it mean to be trans? If the binary is false, why desire to have been born, or to become a member of the opposite sex? Why can't I just be happy being "feminine" without wishing I had a different body?

    I'll be honest, these are difficult questions for me as I have never probed that deep into my mind. Perhaps therapy would bring some clarity, but I do have some ideas. I was very close to my mother as a child, and perhaps I long to be motherly as a result of this. Being pregnant, breastfeeding, all that. Or maybe it's just a chemical thing that I cannot fully understand. Maybe there's more than a little vanity involved as well. Whatever the reason, I fall on the "feminine" side of the spectrum and I feel that women's clothing is more expressive of my personality. I want to look like a woman, if I cannot BE a woman, because that is my ideal self-image. I want the curves and slenderness that women's clothing is often designed to accentuate and reveal.

    Reine, your response to me is absolutely correct. While not (usually) being physically attracted to men, I do know plenty of guys who are great friends and have spirits which I wouldn't hesitate to call beautiful. I am afraid that my own dysphoria can cause me to think harshly of the male form. But I can certainly see the appeal of having a strong, protective arm around me.
    Peace and love, - Christy

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation?
    Yes. "I think that women's clothes are nicer" explains why CDers wear them. But the question here is why CDers find them nicer. Two different questions, one deeper than the other. It is a valid question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something?
    In terms of psychological complexes? No. That's a straw man argument. Neither stamp collecting nor CDing has to be explained in terms of psychological complexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest?
    Yes, sometimes. It depends on whether the question interests me or not. I've never wondered why people like stamp collecting because stamp collecting doesn't interest me. But I have often wondered why people watch so much TV. I've very seldom, if ever, heard anybody say they think TV is wonderful, rewarding. Virtually everyone I've ever spoken to admits that they find TV moronic. Yet they still watch lots of it. So I ask why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?
    My opinion: sex/gender is something very fundamental in people's psychology, in their world-view. We transpeople upset that world view. We disturb cispeople in a very deep way. That's why they question it. But I'm optimistic: as time goes on, as cispeople get used to seeing transpeople and learn more about us, they'll become more accepting of us, and they won't be bothered so much about what we wear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people.
    You're prejudicing the question here. First, with the word "pathologizing". To ask someone why they do something they do isn't necessarily pathologizing. It can be an honest attempt to get information. I've had cispeople ask me why I do what I do. They were nice people who weren't condemning me in any way. They simply wanted to know.

    Second, with your use of the word "reasonable"--as if "reasonable" people of today might be no different from "reasonable" people of a generation ago--as if Reine, for example, is the same sort of person as those who gave LGBT people aversion therapy. She's "reasonable", they were "reasonable", she's asking the same sort of question they did, therefore she must be just like them. Very faulty reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.
    A gay person doesn't necessarily know why someone is attracted to a person of the same sex. He obviously understands that people can be, but it doesn't follow from that that he knows why. I know what I feel when I wear women's clothing, but I can't explain why I have those feelings.

    To say "This is what I like, this is the way I am" doesn't explain why you are the way you are. The question here is, "Why do you like what you like?" You don't have to see gays or transpeople as sick or perverted in order to ask the question. I don't see myself as sick or perverted, but I would like to know why I am the way I am.

    Again, Asche, you're prejudicing the question. You're suggesting that no one would ask this sort of question unless they see LGBT people as sick and perverted. This isn't true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    But history is full of people to whom some interest or desire, whether it be painting, cataloging earthworms, climbing some mountain, or whatever, was so important that they were willing to suffer rejection or abuse to do it. Obviously, the more negative the consequences for pursuing your dream/living your truth, the more important it has to be to you. I don't see why "wearing women's clothes" is fundamentally so different.
    Because normally things such as painting, cataloguing earthworms or climbing some mountain don't question people's world view or disturb them as deeply as wearing women's clothing does. Sometimes such activities can. In the arts, e.g., Stravinsky's Rite of Spring caused a riot at its premiere in Paris. In biology, Darwin's views caused and are still causing considerable upset. Question people's deeply held assumptions and they can get upset. That's what CDing does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    At some point, I find this refusal to believe that people could know their own mind better than some stranger who knows nothing about them except what they see in a post a little condescending. It's a widespread attitude here at CD.com (and elsewhere), and most of the people who display it are nowhere near as decent about it as ReineD.
    If you don't know why you find women's clothing nicer than men's, then you don't in fact know your own mind. I have lots of feelings that I can't explain. I don't really know my own mind--although I'd very much like to. To ask "why?" isn't condescending. That's merely your interpretation of the question. To ask "why?" can be an honest attempt to gain knowledge. And it's not in fact a widespread attitude on this forum. People here aren't condescending towards CDers--unless you interpret the question "Why?" as condescending, in which case you're going to find lots of things condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    And, since I'm a bit irritated by this, why don't I just play turn-about with this if-I-don't-feel-it-it-must-not-be-real attitude:

    Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)

    It's a neat theory: it explains what I see here at CD.com, it doesn't require any gender essentialism, and it agrees with my experience of myself, so it must be true. The fact that it may not agree with other people's experience of themselves doesn't matter, because obviously if I don't see it, it must be because they just don't have enough insight, not because my experience isn't universally applicable.
    This passage is unfair to Reine. In her post she didn't offer any interpretation of CDers and their motives or reasons. In fact, what she did was ask for them. Again, you're prejudicing the question: you're suggesting that she did something that she didn't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    A bit snarky, perhaps, but at some point I get tired of people's assumption that their lack of imagination is my problem to solve.
    Yes, it is more than a bit "snarky" (to use your word), and I personally am at a loss to explain why CDers should be so irritated by this thread. It's as if asking them to explain their motives is a challenge to their right to CD or a condemnation of them for doing so. Not so. People can ask me why I live the way I do. It doesn't mean they're condemning me for living that way.

    And why are you complaining about Reine's lack of imagination? How can she as a cisperson imagine what's going on inside us? Is that what we want cispeople to do anyway? Instead of doing scientific research, instead of them asking us how we feel about things or what we think about things, would it be better for us if they simply sit back and imagine what's going on inside us? That's precisely what trans-haters are doing these days. They imagine what's going on inside us and then proceed to condemn us. Instead of using her imagination, Reine asked us a question. I wish more cispeople would do that. It's the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    However, if you the scientist have grown up with the idea that there is something unnatural and pathological about homosexuality, you are going to end up posing the question and interpreting your results from a pathologizing perspective without realizing you are doing it. And since the society you are operating in sees the unnaturalness of homosexuality as being as obvious and unquestionable as 1+1=2, your "results" -- whatever they are -- are going to be interpreted as showing that there's something wrong with homosexuals. I'm not theorizing here: I'm describing most of the scientific research on the subject at least up through the 1970's, and the express belief of a substantial minority of the mental health profession even today.
    Again, this whole passage is prejudicing the question. Scientists used to grow up with the idea that homosexuality is unnatural and pathological, and society used to hold those views as well. Things are changing now. Scientists, psychologists and therapists by and large don't see LGBT people as pathological. Homosexuality was declassified as a mental illness long ago, and TGism is more or less there now. And homosexuality is more accepted in society at large these days than it used to be, though there's still a ways to go. You're admitting that the views you're expressing here were valid only up to the 70s. And a "substantial minority" (assuming it is "substantial") is much less than a universal view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Because of these experiences, a lot of gay people are distrustful of any such research.
    Again, prejudicing the question: "such research"--i.e., research whose objective is to pathologize them. That sort of research isn't being done these days. The sort of research that's being done now is a much more honest attempt to understand LGBT people as we truly are. We have nothing to fear from that sort of research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    BTW: how much scientific research is done to figure out why heterosexuals are heterosexual? Fairly little: because being heterosexual isn't seen as needing an explanation.
    But in coming to understand homosexuality, we can also come to understand heterosexuality. And just because the majority have never wanted an explanation as to why they are what they are, it doesn't mean there isn't such an explanation. Research is being done into LGBT questions because we're a minority, because we're outside the norm, because we're interesting. And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with people gaining an understanding of us? Would we prefer them to remain ignorant and bigoted?


    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Why would someone prefer Chopin to LIszt?
    Because I find a great deal of depth and substance in Chopin. I've never listened to much of Liszt, but when I heard one of his Piano Concertos, the conclusion of it sounded to me very much like a college football fight song. Not my type of thing.

    Why do I find so much more substance in Chopin than in Liszt, or so much more substance in Corelli than in Vivaldi? I don't know, but it is a valid question--the question of what actually constitutes substance in art. Such questions are very difficult, but worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Why would someone like blue better than green?
    Ask them. Maybe they'll have an answer. My wardrobe is centered around black, brown and blue--colors that go well with my red hair and blue eyes. Why do these colors go well together in my opinion? I don't know. I haven't thought about it much. I do have other things to think about.

    There are lots of questions in life. I have lots of questions about my personality, who and what I am and why. By asking questions you can gain some understanding of yourself, which I consider a good and necessary thing. Maybe others think otherwise.

    Asche, why do you find women's clothing nicer than men's? Answer that question and you'll have understood something very profound about yourself. And above all, why does someone's asking that question offend you so much?

    To ask the question doesn't condemn you. It's an attempt to understand you. Two different things.

    Best wishes, Annabelle
    Last edited by Foxglove; 01-30-2013 at 06:22 AM.

  23. #123
    Aspiring Member TeresaL's Avatar
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    Thanks for asking the question(s) RenieD. I have not been crossdressing lately, and missed seeing this post because I've been doing other things. Somewhere in the archives, you've probably mentioned that you have a research background, an inquisitive nature, and are a stakeholder. Yay or nay? Any of those values are virtues in my opinion. You, like I, seek cause and effects, and apply a bit of scientific reason (to a degree that we are able) which demands a logical answer. and
    Are not logical answers. LOL

    Effects don't cause effects. Something ignites the cause to produce the effect. (In MtF dressing, dressing or feeling good is the effect, but it is not the cause). What is the cause? Oversimplified, finding a solution requires at minimal the following principles to provide somewhat of an explanation to "why?, why?, why?...
    Cause ->Catalyst -> Effect

    Catalyst (maybe testosterone) is the fuel or ignition, and may be a secondary cause, but not the primary cause of our nature, which is natural to us and largely foreign to society in general.

    If we work our way back toward trying to discover the cause, we do find testosterone lurking and it indeed provides fuel to ignite and discover MtF dressing. Testosterone though is still not the the root cause, it is one kind of fuel. We are in the minority, less than 10% possibly and the mixture of testosterone and clothes do not produce crossdressers in the larger male population. If it did, then the question is settled and we would have a determining factor for our cross dressing.

    While It may be the antagonistic http://avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm


    Yet, those of us in the minority may have started with testosterone and women's articles as a fetish of sorts. There must be a reason behind this, which is closer to the root than puberty. Something we don't consciously regard, because it is not a tangible entity without dissecting our brain. Yet we've read about dissected brains of transgenders, and their conclusion is their brain exhibits feminine brain structure and doesn't resemble male structure.

    So we turn to the brain, this organ of ours which doles out the commands to our body. For some reason our brain causes us to crossdress or express ourselves in female ways because our brains have a capacity to tie the effects together, and act out on them resulting in the latter effect of "it feels good, hence I do it."

    (I can't believe how much I'm writing and on an iPhone yet). LOL

    If you've followed this mess of mine, you know that I am inquisitive and looking for answers too. If I pause too long, I can't see in the screen to tell what I had written in order to keep on track. So I'm going to wind this down and conclude that we are different, and our brains either developed in the early fetal stages or rewiring took place afterwords. One of those must be the root cause to our crossdressing, not "I like to wear panties." LOL
    Last edited by TeresaL; 01-30-2013 at 01:34 PM.

  24. #124
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    There are a lot of reasons, but is it really impossible to believe that there is a pwerful pull from the desire to wear the clothes. For those of us who started very young it is hard to interpret that first time as anything other than the desire to put on the soft frilly clothing. As a five year old I don't think that I was caught up in a personal debate about wanting to be feminine (too abstract), or power (ceding or gaining), but the panties felt nice, the dress was great, the slip superb.

    As I said at 5 years old there isn't much more than impulse at work. The first time leads to second and third times because it felt good/right when the clothes were on. As a preteen/teen the sexual release is there so there can begin to be other arguments about why, but if you started young it is still the magic of the clothes that leads you be wearing them and discover that they can feed into more gratification.

    As an adult more piles as far as it being a release of stress, authority, masculinity, power-whatever else-that result from putting on the clothes, but the initial power of the clothes is the clothes themselves, the other stuff all follows from what you idscover about yourself when you have them on.

    So those are my 2 pennies thrown into the continually interesting debate.

  25. #125
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    An excerpt from an article written by C.V. Prince (aka Virginia Prince) in 1957 offering an explanation on "Transvestite" (the dominant term used in those days) identity. Her opinion on this matter hits on the social reasons for heterosexual male Crossdressing behavior (as distinct from transsexual behavior) which I tend to agree with to some degree.

    "Finally, the role of the young male in relation to one or several of the females around him is such as to either devalue the social position of the male (a "dominant mother," for instance) or to place a special emphasis on the woman's role in society, the identification will turn the male into a transvestite in his adult years. As a transvestite his desires are to dress like a woman, act like a woman, go about in public as a woman and be accepted by women as a woman. Such a person is the type which should be designated a "true" transvestite, ... " (Prince, The American Journal of Psychotherapy, vol. 11, 1957, pp. 80-85)


    Read the full article here:

    http://www.anitw.org/Library/Homosex...rentiation.PDF

    Clothes are important, but they are merely symbols of the meaning behind the clothes - in other words, what social information they convey (Femininity). Which is why, I believe, only women's clothes will suffice and not men's clothing of certain fabrics or colors.
    Last edited by Ambergold43; 01-30-2013 at 02:26 PM.

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