Society is not to blame

[Sheila]

Only society decided that what we are is wrong, we had no choice about it, we were born as we are!!

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread [SIZE="4"]Do we need to be forgiven?[/SIZE]
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

[Fab Karen]

Quite right. Society once said being an independent woman was "wrong", society once said being black was "wrong", society once said being gay was "wrong" - these things changed because some people didn't sit at home quietly grumbling to themselves about the injustice.

[trannie T]

I was not aware that society had deemed crossdressing as being wrong. To my knowledge most areas in the western world have no laws against crossdressing and I have heard of no campaigns against crossdressing. It may be regarded as less than acceptable of even silly but it is still permitted and for the most part tolerated.

Threads like this one make me weary, I have too much fun going out to worry about what people may think of my choice in clothing.

[Deborah Jane]

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread D[SIZE="4"]o we need to be forgiven?[/SIZE]
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

Problem one....Changing societys long held view of us isn't exactly going to be easy, for a start, even now children are brought up to believe that if it's differant, it's wrong/perverse/whatever!!

Problem two, the people who instigate those views are very much of the old way of thinking, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never change how they view us!!

Changing society?
It'll never happen, too many people in the higher up positions have too much to lose by allowing our general acceptance in society, they probably regard us as a threat in some way!

Basically this is the way of things, unless we fit into some conveniant little box, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never have full acceptance!!

Living our lives and being completely free to do so without any fear of ridicule/backlash, etc?

Not in this society!!!!

Me personnally...I do whatever i like, if society don't like it.....Tough!!!

[kellycan27]

You said a mouthful sister. i think that sometimes the society monster is in our heads, in as much as it keeps us bottled up and in fear .Fear of what though? Physical injury? arrest? or the fear that we will be ridiculed or laughed at? that we will be humiliated? When I see these success stories,almost on a daily basis now, " I finally did it", "I went out today" , "I went shopping today" .. and it was wonderful, I can't wait to do it again! " I flew" "I drove" , "I walked"..... I have to wonder.. where is this fear of society coming from? I don't see horror stories, a small incident now and then, but nothing catastrophic. Mostly positive results. When I read these great stories, I just sort of smile and say to myself... yup, another one just slipped through the cracks. Another lucky sister finally figured it out. And I am betting that those lucky girls are probably sitting there just reading these type threads... smiling and shaking their heads and wondering who's going to be next.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

...WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE ...

If your main argument against "society is to blame" is that we cannot blame a society that we are a part of, then I'd say it seems more like an issue of semantics. Being a part of a society does not mean that one must adhere to its generally accepted rules and does not mean that one cannot place blame on that society simply because one exists within it. However, I may have misunderstood the quoted statement.

I'm going to disagree with the message though. I wholeheartedly believe that society is absolutely blame for the problems we face in being who we are. I blame society and its handed down from generation to generation "gender rules" and "punishments for not adhering to them".

I blame society's intolerance of people like me for causing all the confusion I grew up with. I grew up hating myself because everyone in my world (in other words, "society") reinforced that men need to be masculine, manly, tough, etc. Any man who wanted to wear women's clothes is something to be laughed at and made fun of. It is a deviant behavior and perversion. THAT is what society taught me. That is why I hated myself. That is why I spent most of my life confused about who and what I am.

There was no way in hell I could have ever grown up as a kid being allowed by my parents to dress and look the way I would have chosen. I had no way to "stand tall and proud" to be a crossdresser. My parents laid down the law, reinforced the belief that this was a terrible and deviant behavior, and that was that.

So I do blame them - I blame society for this crap we have to deal with.

Society dictates what is socially acceptable and not acceptable. Yes, we can make changes within this society that we are a part of, but right now, today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, etc. - this is the reality. With few exceptions, society does not want us around. Society will continue to try and repress us and perpetuate the lies (that many of them do not even understand are lies).

There is no way I cannot blame society. I cannot see any way in which "society is not to blame". I grew up in this society and I blame it. I also intend to change it, if only one mind at a time. But right now, things are how they are, society is what it is, and I most certainly blame society for the trouble most of it gives us.

I respect anyone who believes that "society is not to blame", but I disagree.

[kellycan27]

I think that it works both ways in as much as many of us still view society in "the old way of thinking." And no matter what, nothing is going to change their view. The gays found more acceptance, but they aren't viewed in the same way, because our thing is especially wierd. Nobody ever thought that gays were preverted,or sick or that they didn't molest children..or any of those awful things that they think about us. yeah I am sure.

Society doesn't have to do a darn thing to keep us down or prepetuate these myths. we do it ourselves. We sit here and complain and piss and moan about society, and spread fear amoung ourselves. There are no roving death squads out there, no police searching for us.
We hold eachother back because we are afraid of what? A little ridicule? some laughter? embarassment? If we sit in the closet until we are sure that everything will be peachy, until we have nothing to fear.... you're right..it's never going to happen.

[Sheila]

Problem one....Changing societys long held view of us isn't exactly going to be easy, for a start, even now children are brought up to believe that if it's differant, it's wrong/perverse/whatever!!

Well now are you calling me a bad parent here ............ all of my kidds have been brought up to acept the differences in people ........... all 3 of my kids have met several CDERS and to my knowledge not one of them have been, rude, or ignorant to the crossdressing in principal or in actuallity ..... in fact my youngest is perhaps the one who is coolest with it all bless him

Problem two, the people who instigate those views are very much of the old way of thinking, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never change how they view us!!

Sometimes the old way of thinking is the better way ........ and if you do not like that way of thinking then actively do something to change peoples views, eduate them, challange their way of thinking ............ if you don't then you lead them to believe their views are right and just and allow them to influence the next generation, and that to my mind is wrong.

Changing society?
It'll never happen, too many people in the higher up positions have too much to lose by allowing our general acceptance in society, they probably regard us as a threat in some way!

it will never happen if you do not do something to change it ...... if you begin at the bottom and convert one person to your way of thinking and they convert another, and they another, soon you have changed a lot of peoples views and that is how a democratic society works ...... them at the top can make as many laws as they like and we may have to abide by them or suffer the consequences, but they cannot make us like it ........ revolutions have been born from them at the top getting it wrong so many times till us little peeps said NO MORE

Basically this is the way of things, unless we fit into some conveniant little box, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never have full acceptance!!

Living our lives and being completely free to do so without any fear of ridicule/backlash, etc?

but it is, you by your own fear that place yourself in that box ........... like I said in my OP there are many CDERS & I forgot to mention TS's (sorry girls) that are already out there doing it .. Hats off to them

Not in this society!!!!

NOT with that attitude no you may well be right ........... but with a different one Maybe Just Maybe you would get a different answer

Me personnally...I do whatever i like, if society don't like it.....Tough!!!

But you don't Debs, you might like to think so but you don't .... none of us can

[Shelly Preston]

Society is everyone of us

We have the power to change it all be it ever so slowly

I overheard a conversation at work last week in which a colleague mentioned that the majority of CD's were straight

So somethings are getting out to the public also the awareness has been raised by crosdressing and / or transexuallity being portrayed in the media in prime time soap operas

Some people will never change their attitude but if we dont try it will never happen

Getting out there on a regular basis is not easy, especially if you have commitments to family etc, and who could be affected by some small minded people

All we can do is educate people where and when we can

[AmberDay]

I find myself trying to blame society for the reason I don't go out in public and for the little time I get to dress. I come up with excuses like, people will laugh at me, I won't be allowed in stores, I might run into some children, my wife will divorce me if she found out; I know there isn't any law forbidding me from going out, but I am so concerned about how society would feel, that I don't put my own feelings into consideration. Maybe I should.

I agree with both sides of the debate.

Amber

[tricia_uktv]

Society is to blame for making it difficult for us; but then we are part of society. So get out there girls!

[Kate Simmons]

Sheila is right and while we maybe cannot control "society" we can control ourselves. Getting possession of our own "vessel" is what it is all about. How we act and interact with others makes the difference, crossdressing or being TG or TS notwithstanding. If none of these issues existed it would come down to people getting along as people. Acting as if and visualizing that has already happened is a step in the right direction as the people not the "condition" are the important thing.

[Samantha Kelsey]

I think that Sheila is correct. I also think that 'soceity' is very wary of the unknown and that this is how they think of CDing. They know it exists but most know nothing about it because most CDing goes on in secret. Only we, the crossdressers can change this. Women got themselves the vote, Ethnic citizens quite rightly got themselves respected and Gays got themselves recognised. You want to be up there with them? then unless you already have, get your a*** out of your closet and show the world who/what you are, NORMAL!!

[Crysten]

I think that it works both ways in as much as many of us still view society in "the old way of thinking." And no matter what, nothing is going to change their view. The gays found more acceptance, but they aren't viewed in the same way, because our thing is especially wierd. Nobody ever thought that gays were preverted,or sick or that they didn't molest children..or any of those awful things that they think about us. yeah I am sure.

Society doesn't have to do a darn thing to keep us down or prepetuate these myths. we do it ourselves. We sit here and complain and piss and moan about society, and spread fear amoung ourselves. There are no roving death squads out there, no police searching for us.
We hold eachother back because we are afraid of what? A little ridicule? some laughter? embarassment? If we sit in the closet until we are sure that everything will be peachy, until we have nothing to fear.... you're right..it's never going to happen.

I understand Los Angeles has roving death squads - and they ARE the police. Seems there was just another story out of Texas as well. Something about the officer pulling his gun on the couple who rolled through a stop light to get to the dying mother in law.

My opinion is that ignorance abounds. Some of it is innocent, and some of it is willful. There are people roaming the earth whom you would not want to meet in a dark alley. Many of these are the self-righteous "born-again" types, so full of hate and loathing for anything "different" from their own personal set of beliefs that it makes them dangerous. So, while 98% of the population may be indifferent to us, there's definitely that 2% to be avoided at all costs. Two percent might not sound like a lot - but it's roughly 2.5 million of the current US population.

And - I reserve the right to piss and moan in my own home. Jeesh, this IS America after all!!

Crysten

[RylieCD]

Who ever said this whould be easy? We are still fighting racism in areas and accepting sexulaity in others, it takes time.


As shiliea said in another post, it is also on how you raise your children. Sure we can try to change society by being in their face and letting them know it is ok and that we are not going away. But I see it in my own parents on how they were raised. My father was raised more from the old wa of thinking and he carries that on (thinking of "womens work" and the womens place is at home not that he admits to it). mothers side is a little younger and more open minded, still have some views but you can see a difference with a small age difference. Point - Although you may not see society changing, it is, it just takes time. some longer than others.

[Karren H]

Well I'm not blaming anyone...... I'd rather spend my time having fun rather than trying to figure out who to blame or who to forgive!!!

[Sheila]

Well I'm not blaming anyone...... I'd rather spend my time having fun rather than trying to figure out who to blame or who to forgive!!!

and you are one of those i am applauding here Karen

.................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not always easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

[TxKimberly]

It has so far been my experience that society does NOT have a problem with us.
I spent a lot of time in the world, and despite what you may think looking at my pics, I do not pass up close and personal. in all of these years, I've met far more people that will smile and say hello than people that glare and ignore me. At least in the "Western" countries, society does not have a problem with us, we are just AFRAID society will have a problem with us. As Sheila has pointed out, that makes the problem pretty much ours and not society's.

[TGMarla]

Society is what people have made it to be. It is an ever-evolving fluid thing that changes over time. Gay people never had much open freedom until they went out of their way to change things. Our situation is different, though. Gay people don't go around emulating the other gender. Apples and oranges. But society is becomming more tolerant of alternative lifestyles, and eventually, society will not care at all about who does what anymore. Society is not to blame here; it simply has not evolved to the point where all behaviors are fully tolerated.

And Kimberly has a whole lot more experience out and about in the world than I do. When I have gone out, I have had no problems at all. It's likely that most of our problem is in our collective heads.

[Lisa Golightly]

To be perfectly honest the worst abuse I've ever received has been from within the 'scene' by which I mean the TG scene. Society in general seems to let me get on with it...

[Christina Horton]

I have been going out dressed as a women for about 15 times now , wow I allmost lost count on how many time's I have been out . I all way wished I could pass perficty ,but the last few times out I started to think "If I passed 100% then no one out there would see me and think (I just saw a man in a dress neet)" or something like that. If I go out and look good but not 100% more people will see CD's out there and maybe I could in a small way help change the public way of thinking. I have educated many if not in the 100's or even in the 1000's of them about us . Not just the hedro CD but all of us and 99% of the people seem to be fine with it. Most are shocked when I tell them how many of us there are, and how many CDers are not gay. Most people think just cuz we dress as women we have to be gay like Ru Paul e.t.c. I just tell them some are but most are not. Just the ones they see on the TV and in the movie's are what they see. Not that that's a bad thing , but just that We as a hole don't have a ROLE MODEL Like Ru Paul or someone. am watching Ru Paul's drag race right now too. LOL. Maybe one of us should do it. I would love to be I am a camra hog after all. LOL. HUGGS : hugs:

[Mirani]

I live 24/7 as Mirani. I get on with my life and for the most part so does everyone else.
Some may laugh behind my back. Some may point or stare. Some are rude.
Says everything about them and nothing about me!

I have had the help and encouragement, love and support of my partner. She showed me the way . . in all honesty I wouldn't be where I am without her. The "courage" to be me came from facing the world and finding out that the world, on the whole, doesn't give a hoot.

The only thing that has changed . . . is me!

[battybattybats]

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread [SIZE="4"]Do we need to be forgiven?[/SIZE]
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE

While it's true WE are the only ones who have a reason to change this and so we must acknowledge that the responsibility of changing this is up to us as we are a part of society nevertheless we are also a product of the society that existed as we grew up! Our parents generation and before are responsible for the situation we have been in. We are the ones responsible for changing it.

.......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view ..................

Yes we do! All the people who spread hate about CDs, crushed and destroyed CD culture, outlawed and banned CDing etc. But we have no-one to blame but ourselves for societies view not changing back in the future if we don't act!

The difference is vitally important!

I was not aware that society had deemed crossdressing as being wrong.

So why on earth do you think something found in every society througout all history that was often not just tolerated or accepted but reverred has gone into the closet in the first place? Why is it just a few holdouts like Tonga and Samoa while in just a few centuries Australia, the Americas, much of the Islamic World, much of Asia and much of Polynesia went from CDs out in the open and accepted and even reverred to being in the closet hiding?

Where did the closet come from????

To my knowledge most areas in the western world have no laws against crossdressing

The Compton Cafeteria Riots and the Stonewall Uprising were violent riots against laws against crossdressing! That was what, 40 years ago. And following that was years of political and legal struggle to get anti-CD laws overturned accross much of the western world! The reaosn the laws aren't there is that hard work was done, mostly by Drag Queens and Transsexuals and Gays & Lesbian allies.

and I have heard of no campaigns against crossdressing.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=103244

Thats the current face of it right there!

Changing society?
It'll never happen, too many people in the higher up positions have too much to lose by allowing our general acceptance in society, they probably regard us as a threat in some way!

Literally that exact same thought was expressed by many women a few generations ago. African Americans too. Australian Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders and Gays & lesbians.

Yet they all have changed society drastically in a short period of time! All those struggles is ongoing but massive leaps have been made for each of them.

There is no reason I have ever heard that we would be any different than they! All we have to do is what they did!

Gay people never had much open freedom until they went out of their way to change things. Our situation is different, though. Gay people don't go around emulating the other gender. Apples and oranges.

Except for those that do! There are gay CDs too!

No, society IS to blame. And WE are responsible for fixing the mess. So long as we stop pretending we can't! Even from within the closet we can act to change things!

[Sheila]

No, society IS to blame. And WE are responsible ]

No it ain't Batty ....... like you said YOU are responsible .... but not for fixing the mess ... your responsability lies in being open and honest and living your life with dignity and honsety, for being true to who you are and not waiting for the brave sould to go out and venture forth do do it for you

[battybattybats]

No it ain't Batty ....... like you said YOU are responsible .... but not for fixing the mess ...

Then who will fix the mess?

your responsability lies in being open and honest and living your life with dignity and honsety, for being true to who you are

Can you point out to me which civil rights victories were won that way alone?

I do live my life honestly, with dignity. I'm obviously a gender-free goth 24/7. Not lying. I wear makeup doing the shopping nearly every week. My nails are always long and painted, changing colour every week.

I have not been out fully dressed often (but my disability makes that very difficult!) yet I have done so a handful of occassions amongst my own community meeting people I know who recognised me instantly!

And yet not everyone can be out. But that does not get them off the hook! They can still do more and they have a responsibility too whether from the closet or not.

and not waiting for the brave sould to go out and venture forth do do it for you

I'm not. I'm quoted in two transgender issues Australian Human Rights Reports! I have had a significant impact on the reccomendations made to the Australian Government on changing the way documentation issues of Transgender and Intersex people is handled! I have had corresspondance with two influential Australian federal politicians. And I'm actively involved in the campain to get a bill/statute/charter of Rights in this country!

That's hardly waiting for others! And it's effecting far more change than going shopping in my girliest gear would because what I've been doing effects the lives of people accross the whole continent!

And all that important stuff could have been done by anyone no matter how deeply closeted! So I'm doing this on three fronts, my small rural local community by clearly breaking strict binary gender rules (which if went fully femme and i passed would do nothing!) so that on a fair few occassions people have perceived me as female even in mostly male clothes, and online where my words can educate far more people than I could ever meet in one day of dressed shopping and also on federal laws and human rights where my small efforts can positively effect the lives of thousands of CDs and TSs!

Yes being out in person helps susbtantially and more profoundly influences the people you talk to who get to know you. But engaging in online discussion reaches more people and the closeted can still do that! And being involved in writing letters to local representatives etc is something anyone can do too!

No-one capable of being on this forum has any excuse not to do at least some of those!