Passing?

[Miss Misery]

I was thinking about how we've set "passing" as the gold-standard" of CD/TS but I wonder if we're misinterpreting what we see.

In other words, just because no one says anything or gives us a second glance should we consider that passing? There's nothing to suggest that passers by recognized or thought of us as a female which is what we're talking about when passing -right? Or is "passing", dressing female and going unnoticed as a male dressed as a female? It sounds like splitting hairs but there really is a difference and we might be interpreting one as the other.

[Christina Horton]

Ok I have had the same thoughts over the years and I have figured out that it does not matter if you pass just how your treated. Read my past posts and you might get some insight on the whole thing.
Here's the two links.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=123121



http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=133974

[Mikaela]

It's ok to be semantic because it is a semantic argument.

I suppose there's a scale of passing, even if arbitrary. There are probably different scales when considering look (ie, a picture), action and movement (gestures, walking, etc), and speech.

Did anyone point and laugh?
Did anyone ask you or someone they were with if you were male?
Did anyone get tongue tied on sir/ma'am or do a double take that you noticed?
---All above is no---
Did someone notice but politely not say anything?
Did you think you passed only for someone in hindsight to mention something?
Did someone wonder why some girl that looked like Him come out of his place/car/etc?
--All above is semantically no because they were noticed as something, but the CD would say yes to themselves---
Propositioned by member of the opposite sex?
Corrected by a staff member to use the 'correct' restroom/changing room
Sales Associates and general passerbys treat you as female, do not notice
People you know do not notice
--All above would be a yes---

For me, I won't be going out until I can look at myself and not recognize a man in woman's clothing. My transformation is pretty good since I have Mr Clean's hairdo in boy mode, but I don't think I'm there yet.

[Christina Horton]

For me, I won't be going out until I can look at myself and not recognize a man in woman's clothing. My transformation is pretty good since I have Mr Clean's hairdo in boy mode, but I don't think I'm there yet.

Look hun....If you wait till you can do it perfectly then you may never get out. I am not a girl that passes 100% of the time I'd say 50 to 60 % . Now if I waited I would have missed two wonderful years of going out dressed and I would have never got them back. Your pic looks fine so just go out and enjoy yourself.

And if you don't pass....SOOOOOO what, life is WAYYYYYY to short to be afraid to be free.

[Mikaela]

Look hun....If you wait till you can do it perfectly then you may never get out. I am not a girl that passes 100% of the time I'd say 50 to 60 % . Now if I waited I would have missed two wonderful years of going out dressed and I would have never got them back. Your pic looks fine so just go out and enjoy yourself.

Yeah, but pic is only one of those three scales
Don't worry, I have a feeling that this will be the year Mikaela goes out to play.

[kellycan27]

passing means different things to different people. To me passing is the ability to to get right up close and presonal to someone, and they can't tell even after talking to you. But that's just me... some people feel that blending is passing.. I suppose whatever works for the individual is good enough ...

Kel

[Teri Jean]

Mikaela, I spent the day visiting an exibit of tall ships in the harbor of Duluth, Minnesota and during that time there there was probably a few thousand visitors. Being I stand 6-4 and am a transexual female who is 24-7 in dress and life I do stand out more than let us say one who is 115 lbs & 5-2. Did I get looks; yes and many of the women smiled in an good way. There will always be those who cannot get past the early 20th century mentality as to transgender individuals.

[Persephone]

It's ok to be semantic because it is a semantic argument.

A great post, Mikaela, even though I view myself as basically anti-semantic. (Sorry, I had to do it).

Your suggestions for a Passing Taxonomy are very good. Perhaps there really is a way to incorporate the domains that you posted (look, action, movement, speech) across your 10 criteria (or a refined set of the same) and create a useful matrix.

BTW, your name, Mikaela, is lovely!

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Mikaela]

Thanks Persephone!

Although let's not get too carried away on my scale, I've already thought of more that could go in there and I don't want this to turn into new way to label ourselves.

Hi! I'm Mikaela and I'm a 4b-5c-8a type CD (or whatever)

[jessica renee]

Although I'm sure it would be nice to go out fully dressed and such so no one would give a second thought to whether or not I was a female, this will probably never happen. I personally am fine with being passable enough to just blend in, but that's just me.

[charlotte_sp]

I think semantically there is no ambiguity.
"Passing" means that people cannot tell that you are trans/CD in any normal social interaction.
Whenever I use the term, that's what I mean.

That being said, I have a huge problem with the use of the term in general, and threads like this in particular.
Some of these reasons I've posted before, but I feel strongly that it's worth repeating.
I apologize in advance for the wall-of-text/rant.

1. The extent to which you can pass is strongly influenced by factors outside your control or that are difficult to control

a. Genetics/epigenetics
b. Age (of realization)
c. Income (yes, this is not always beyond your control, but starting poor is very difficult)
d. Familial acceptance
e. Familial and/or community responsibilities or lack thereof
f. Employer, work-culture, and community acceptance
g. Availability of hormones
h. Certainty of gender identity

That is not to say there are things you can practice to improve your presentation, but please consider (at least!) the above list and the advantages you might have.
I am not trying to brag, but just as an example, I have, to varying degrees, a., b., c., and e. in my favor, and I realize that not everyone is in the same situation.

2. Passing is difficult, especially for new people.

I think we can take it as a given that being trans/CD is hard on self-esteem.
Estimated suicide rates for transpeople are higher than the national (US) average (though it is hard to get these figures exactly).
If anything, the figures would be underrepresented due to people being in the closet.

The ridiculous standards of physical appearance for females (both at-birth and trans) are already a huge hurdle for MTFs to overcome.
Throwing in the standard of passing really brings the pressure to unhealthy levels.

Please, please try to be sensitive to this issue.
Whenever I see a thread like this I cringe because I am positive there are many, many people who see it and immediately feel much worse about their body image and presentation, even if they had previously been dressing up and going out without a problem.
I am not saying we should not talk about certain things, but the way the discussion is framed is very important.

As a supportive community, we should do our best to make people, especially the new trans/CD people, feel comfortable with who they are and what they look like.

[Miss Misery]

I think my point might have been lost. If no one recognizes you as a 'non GG' let's say - is that your definintion of passing (meaning passing unnoticed) - which is very different from passing (being seen as) a woman. So it's not really a matter of semantics at all. It's using the same word to define 2 very different events.

Kelly answered directly that she felt to pass was to be up close and personal (seen as a woman). That's all I was going for - not saying one is better or more real or satisfying - just what is your opinion?

[Mikaela]

I think my point might have been lost. If no one recognizes you as a 'non GG' let's say - is that your definintion of passing (meaning passing unnoticed) - which is very different from passing (being seen as) a woman. So it's not really a matter of semantics at all. It's using the same word to define 2 very different events.

That's what I got out of it, but my 'scale' was to just separate the choices a bit. There's the "I'm passing and no one is saying anything" tier and the top tier, which is completely fooling (most?) everyone.

I'll be happy with most people not noticing me, no one saying anything, and as many people as possible assuming I'm just a tall girl.

[Miss Misery]

I'll be happy with most people not noticing me, no one saying anything, and as many people as possible assuming I'm just a tall girl.

I'll agree with that Mikaela! For me with my heels (I got to have 'em) a very tall girl !

Sorry Charlotte but some of your list I just don't see as important - I do think genetics (not so much epigenetics) plays the biggest role - your features/physique can be the biggest hurdle to overcome. Also, I don't see why you should get your panties in a bunch over a thread about this - half the stuff on your list is pretty frivolous having some to no impact on one's ability to pass (either definition).

[AKAMichelle]

passing as you are describing is impossible for most of us to obtain. Very few of us can pass well enough that people think we are a GG. For the rest of us including me, I just want to go about my life as me. I don't want to be hassled. I just want to have fun.

[charlotte_sp]

Sorry Charlotte but some of your list I just don't see as important - I do think genetics (not so much epigenetics) plays the biggest role - your features/physique can be the biggest hurdle to overcome. Also, I don't see why you should get your panties in a bunch over a thread about this - half the stuff on your list is pretty frivolous having some to no impact on one's ability to pass (either definition).

I am getting my "panties in a bunch" because being trans already has a host of body image issues, and I think it is irresponsible and insensitive to exacerbate them.
When you use a word like "frivolous," I really feel that you are taking some of your advantages for granted and not considering them seriously.
It sounds like nothing I say will change your mind, but let me go through the list anyways just in case:

a. Genetics/epigenetics: Prenatal and postnatal hormones are almost surely the primary cause of the physical differences between males and females. This is epigenetics.

b. Age: Younger people can pass more easily than older people. This is not always true, but it often is.

c. Income: If you cannot afford clothes that fit you well or flatter your figure, it is much harder to pass. The same applies to buying make-up.
This is not even getting into the money required for electrolysis/laser hair removal, HRT, FFS, or SRS (SRS is not usually a factor in passing, but anyways).

d. Familial acceptance: If you are constantly in contact or live with an unaccepting family (there are some younger people here), you will have difficulty maintaining a wardrobe, finding opportunities to practice make-up, growing your hair longer, etc.
Without practice, it is harder to pass.

e. Familial responsibilities: If you realize you are trans/CD after you have a family, you will not necessarily have the time to juggle all your responsibilities and find time to shop/do make-up/go out. As with anything, passing takes time and practice, and being a responsible working parent usually does not leave you much time. This is all assuming you have an accepting SO too.
Once again, without practice, it is harder to pass.

f. Employer/community acceptance: The simplest example is the US military. The price of being outed is a serious damper on how seriously you can cross-dress.
There are of course other jobs (e.g. anything working with children, church positions) that can be (unfairly) adversely affected if you are outed.
As with d. and e., this may affect for example your ability to shave body hair without questions being asked.

I'll concede that g. and h. are only relevant to full-time transgendered people, who generally (not always) have much more invested in passing.

g. Availability of hormones: It is not always easy depending on where you live to find a doctor willing to prescribe hormones and to do it correctly.

h. Certainty of gender identity: This is mostly about things that cause irreversible or dramatic changes in your body. If you are transitioning, obviously you will be open to using hormones. If you are not or are unsure, then you cannot take that route, which affects your body shape and to some degree your body hair.

[Chickhe]

There are two thoughts I have on passing. The first, is that it is an honest question you ask to gage your success at fully dressing and not looking unusual in an effort to improve your image. The second is fantasty related, which might even be interpreted as bragging by some, but it is the feeling you are passing when people treat you as a female and are nice. You feel like you are passing as a female (even though you might not be... you are just being accepted). For me the real hard part is being too self critical and you can't read people's thoughts so don't try. There are some things to consider...other people might see... attractive women so they look, ugly woman so they stare or study you, unusual or creative style so they look at your clothing, they know you are a guy, they thing you are a TS. Could be anything... just smile back and go about your business.

[AllieSF]

We visit this subject every so often on this site. It still is an interesting topic to cover because there are always so many newbies here that a good discussion can help others understand the pros and cons of using the word "passing". I agree with Kelly that true passing is just that. No one thinks that you are not the gender that that you are presenting when seen up close. However, there is always the tendency to get hung up on the semantics of individual words. In reality, some of these semantic issues should really be considered non-issues.

I know that I do not pass up close. However, at a distance that changes a lot. When people, total strangers, treat me or others as a normal human being (whatever that is) when dressed, I do not, and I do not believe that others here, think that I or them are really passing. We are just being treated with respect. As most do, we use some words incorrectly without fooling ourselves nor others when they hear us using those words. Words are interchangeable and overlap and get mis-used all the time. There is no need to get anyone's panty in a bunch (whatever that means) when they are mis-used. The reality is that some really do pass while the rest of us come close or not at all. I do believe that each of us know where we fit in in the spectrum of passing.

If based on what Charlotte said someone reacts badly after reading one of these threads, I think that they probably do not need this thread topic to push them over the top. They have other more serious issues to work on, including self acceptance. Are we to self-censor our threads, and how should we accomplish that, when the basis of this forum is to openly, honestly and frankly discuss those issues that are important to the individual member, whether or not it fits into the overall general consensus of the site's populace? And Charlotte, I do clearly understand and respect what you are saying.

[Megan70]

This was addressed a few days ago in a thread further down in this category, check it out;
Megan
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=136519

[Lexine]

The idea of passing to me is similar to Andy's reaction to a running gag in "The 40 Year Old Virgin":

Someone: You're putting the ##### on a pedestal, man.
Andy: Why does everyone keep saying I'm putting the ##### on a pedestal?!

It's true that there are varying degrees of passing, but I firmly believe that given enough traits one puts on, anyone can pass for the opposite gender. Part of it though I think is giving the other person enough reason for them to accept what your doing as something normal.

However, it should be noted - and something that I don't see a lot of on the forums - is the acknowledgement that passing and putting out enough traits, as it were, is dependent on your location. For instance, while I'm not from there I've read a lot of CDers in Texas who are afraid to go out en femme given the sociological makeup of the people in said area. The importance of passing and putting on more traits in this area is then heightened. Whereas by contrast, if you lived in San Francisco for instance, the importance of "passing" seems to be much lower since the area is more accepting of alternative lifestyles.

Anyway, these are my

[Angiemead12]

If Im out, I just want to be treated with respect and not get harassed by naive people!

[kellycan27]

The idea of passing to me is similar to Andy's reaction to a running gag in "The 40 Year Old Virgin":



It's true that there are varying degrees of passing, but I firmly believe that given enough traits one puts on, anyone can pass for the opposite gender. Part of it though I think is giving the other person enough reason for them to accept what your doing as something normal.

However, it should be noted - and something that I don't see a lot of on the forums - is the acknowledgement that passing and putting out enough traits, as it were, is dependent on your location. For instance, while I'm not from there I've read a lot of CDers in Texas who are afraid to go out en femme given the sociological makeup of the people in said area. The importance of passing and putting on more traits in this area is then heightened. Whereas by contrast, if you lived in San Francisco for instance, the importance of "passing" seems to be much lower since the area is more accepting of alternative lifestyles.

Anyway, these are my

I call this tweaking the defininition, to suit a particular circumstance. if you can pass in San Fransisco, you should be able to pass in Texas. People may in fact be more tolerant in S/F than Texas, but whether you can actually pass as a woman has nothing to do with tolerance, it has to do with being physically able to pass as a woman. I think that most of us know the definition of passing in it's true form, in our case it would be to pass scrutiny and to be looked upon as a woman.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with blending or not being noticed. I strongly agree that exhibitiing "traits", "self confidence", and "attitude" are all great to have, and they may get you by, but those things alone are not going to allow you to pass as a woman.

[prene]

I'll agree with that Mikaela! For me with my heels (I got to have 'em) a very tall girl !

Me to.
I only get that reaction from behind though my face\hands are not very feminine.

[Rianna Humble]

I think semantically there is no ambiguity.
"Passing" means that people cannot tell that you are trans/CD in any normal social interaction.
Whenever I use the term, that's what I mean.

On your scale, I do not and possible never will pass. Certainly until my voice alters radically, everyone will know that I am trans.

Perhaps I set the bar too low, but for me passing is when I am treated as a lady, referred to naturally as such and accepted by other women.

On that scale, I pass at least until I open my mouth and very often after that as well. For me it is sufficient to hear someone talking of me say "This lady told me that she..." or have a GG compliment me on my clothes and not bat an eyelid when I respond.

[Fab Karen]

In the Top 4 most repeated subjects here.
If someone remains in place & you have moved beyond them you passed.

"I am what I am"