DES and Transgender

[Paula_56]

I have been reading about the connection between DES a synthetic hormone given to pregnant women in the 50's and 60's. I was born in 1959, at the peak of it's popularity. I had un descended testicles at birth. My mother was 40 when she had me. If I take the CDC survey it comes back as "mostly like being exposed" to DES. I suspect I was, as my mother always talked about me being "a high risk pregnancy" that would alluded to some type treatment by the DR. Also my digit ratio matches that of a woman, more evidence that I was exposed to high amounts of estrogen in the womb. So I know many of you will say what does it matter? Who cares why you are transgendered? But for me it just gives me some peace of mind more the solving of a life long mystery. It also makes it easier to understand.

So my question is does any out there also feel they are DES children?

Also any insight or info would be appreciated

http://www.antijen.org/transadvocate/id33.html

[celeste26]

I'm with the "what does it matter" crowd.

[Kate T]

What does it matter crowd for me too.

Simple solution (assuming is possible), ask your mother.

The concern I have with this type of thing is it smells to me like we are just trying to blame someone. Does there always have to be someone "at fault"?

[LeaP]

What does it matter crowd for me too.

Simple solution (assuming is possible), ask your mother.

The concern I have with this type of thing is it smells to me like we are just trying to blame someone. Does there always have to be someone "at fault"?

I wish I could ask my mother.

I have no interest at all in blame. I would simply like to understand. This applies to any kind of testing, such as genetic testing.

Paula, thank you for the reference to the CDC survey.

Lea

[sandra-leigh]

I did ask my mother a couple of years ago (I am in the right age range); she said No, she did not take DES.

[Melody Moore]

I'm with the "what does it matter" crowd.

While it might not matter to you, to some people issues like this do matter. I didn't find out until last year after I
started gender transition that I was born intersex and underwent surgery as a child to remove female reproductive
system. As a result of this butchery my health started going down hill in 2001 and I was in and out of hospital for
the next 6 years or more and doctors had no clue what was wrong with me. My immune system collapsed and I
developed a condition where my body & endocrine system became very hypersensitive to androgens including
Testosterone, Dihydrotestosterone as well as Cortisone. And the scars I got from that are horrendous.

Up until I found out I was intersex, doctors always treated me as a genetic male, however it seems my body works
a lot better if it is balanced out with female hormones, so now they treat me as a genetic female instead of a male.
Also I had my gall bladder out earlier this year and when the surgeons went in through my naval they found evidence
in the way of an incisional hernia, the legacy of when gender reassignment surgery was performed on me as a child.

So my point is this, you can have health problems if you are born with intersex conditions or other abnormalities of
sexual development. un-descended testicles is actually an intersex condition, so the way I see it then Paula has a
good reason to be concerned because she may want to know about any other health risks or complications she might
have. My intersex condition was mostly like caused by DDT after my father was exposed to the chemical for quite a
few years leading right up until the time I was born. The really sad part is my parents hid this all from me and don't
want to talk about these issues, so I know that isn't always possible either. So what is wrong with Paula trying to
get a few answers here?

[Paula_56]

So what is wrong with Paula trying to
get a few answers here?

Melody thank you so much for your response this is the type of info I was hoping to share and learn about.

What is wrong with some education? I am just trying to understand what is going on????

Thanks Melody (HUG)

[Jorja]

I am not able to ask my mother anything as she passed when I was six. My father was a typical male raised in the 30's, 40's and 50's. He had no idea mom even wore shoes let alone about "female problems". One day I was able to sit down with my aunt (mothers sister) and ask so many questions I had for my mom. One of those questions was, did mom take DES? As she recalled, my mom was dead set against DES. She did not approve of it and was politically involved to ban it's use in the U.S. So I think I can say I was not exposed to DES. Interesting that there was a movement to ban DES way back then at a time when women were seen and not heard.

[J'lyn GG]

FYI: many males are born with undescended testicles. All of my sons, my friends' sons. I belong to a couple of birth groups and we do talk about that stuff. I don't know the statistics, but I do know its not uncommon. As long as they drop by the age of 2 (i think).

[Niya W]

DES has more consequences then thought . Previously they thought it mainly harmed women. What they now found is lets say women took DES and then gave birth to girl. If that girl has a male child the rates of malformed genitals goes up.

[LilSissyStevie]

I know I'm a DES baby. My mother lost her first child, a boy, and took DES with her second, my older sister. Regardless, my older sister was premature but lived. She took DES during her pregnancy with me and I was full term. She took DES during her pregnancy with my younger sister and my younger sister was full term. The last child, a boy, was premature and didn't make it. What's interesting, besides the fact that I've always had issues about my gender and sexuality, is that both my sisters' sons are non conforming gender and sexualitywise. My younger sister's son is gay and my older sister's son is very feminine. I don't know if he's gay or TG or neither but he's definitely girly. So all my mother's male decendants are femme to one degree or another. Hmmmmmmm....

[Barbra P]

I’m pretty sure I’m not a DES baby. My testicles were un-descended at birth too, not at all uncommon, but the Dr. was considering surgery when they didn’t drop in the expected normal time period. As far as my digit ratio my index finger is longer than my ring finger; a feminine trait for those who put stock in theory. I have no idea if any of this has any bearing on my wanting to be a girl since age four or five.

[Debglam]

Hey Paula,

I have some indications of DES exposure but will never be able to prove it. It would be interesting to know but this too is just another theory. Here are a couple of interesting links:

Clinician Information: DES Sons - Men Exposed in Utero

Men Exposed to DES Before Birth (in the Womb), Known as DES Sons

Debby

[Debb]

I too wonder if mom took DES. I was born intersex in 1961 and given surgery to "correct" my genitals; I only found out about this a few years ago.

Anyway, I can't ask mom, she's gone. There's no way dad would remember.

I agree with the education remark, I also have MS, and I don't care about the cause of it, so much as what might be coming down the road as a result of any possible DES exposure.

[Kate T]

The use of DES (diethylstilboestrol) during the 40's and 50's and even into the 60's was a good example of good intentions, bad science. Remembering that at the time synthetic hormones were considered "wonder drugs" with few side effects known at the time (mainly because they had not been used that much yet and the medical profession was not looking for the potential side effects) DES was prescribed to help "maintain" difficult pregnancies. Additionally it would appear that aggressive marketing of the drug (again remembering at the time hormonal preparations were a goldmine for pharmaceutical companies e.g. hormonal menstruation control i.e. the pill) may have contributed to it's overuse. Certainly despite significant quality evidence available in the 1950's that DES was ineffective in maintaining pregnancy, it continued to be used until it was withdrawn in the 1970's.

All this information is readily available online as are the many suggested and proven side effects of DES. Why repeat it here?

Pertaining to my earlier post. If your mother did take DES during your pregnancy it would have been at the advice of her doctor. She most certainly would not have thought she could possibly be doing something that would in any way hurt her child. My concern then is for your relationship with your parent. Say your mother did take DES during your pregnancy. And assuming that DES did cause your gender identity (a link that whilst possible is certainly way off proven). The DES that your mother took "caused" your "abnormal" gender identity. It is not a long jump from this likely true statement to your mother feeling that you blame her for a perceived problem, even if you don't say or believe this.

I can understand why people want to find a "cause". However I suspect that the "cause" is likely to be a collection of various factors including environment before and after birth and genetics. Trying to isolate it to one particular event I suspect is not likely to be truly reflective. I am also concerned that in doing so that one can inadvertantly cause emotional distress.

[ReineD]

It is estimated that as many as five to ten million Americans received DES during pregnancy or were exposed to the drug in utero between the late 1940s and early 1970s (Giusti, Iwamoto, and Hatch, 1995). The numbers of male offspring exposed in utero to DES (“DES sons”) have been estimated at between one and three million in the U.S. (Laitman, Jonler, and Messing, 1997) and similar estimates exist for the numbers of American females exposed in utero (Edelman, 1986). Hundreds of thousands of DES sons and daughters were also born in Canada, Europe and Australia during a similar period.

I agree with Adina and also am concerned about potential emotional distress over believing that DES is the cause of gender related issues. But, is it coincidental that the one to three million males exposed to DES would now be in between the ages of 40 - 65, which is where the majority of the forum members fall. We had a lengthly thread a few months ago taking a survey of members' ages, and if memory serves, there were more in their late 40s, 50s, & 60s than in any other age group.

The article lists possible effects of DES determined by various scientific studies. I'll list them here for ease of reference:

• Benign cysts in the reproductive system
• Undescended testes
• Microphallus (under developed penis)
• Hypospadias (opening of the penis is on the underside)
• Various intersex conditions
• Increased risk of infertility (uncertain)
• Increased risk of testicular cancer (undertain)
• Increased risk for major depressive disorders
• Psychiatric gender related effects
• Psychosexual impact (feminization and demasculinization)
• Endocrine/hormonal disruptors (resulting in sexual differentiation disorders)

As the result of these studies, online support groups of DES sons were formed, and they report a significant or a high prevalence of:

• Hormonal/endocrine health issues
• Gender identity and sexual health issues
• Psychological/mental health issues including anxiety and depression
• Autoimmune disorders
• Infertility
• Reproductive tract abnormalities
• Ambiguous or underdeveloped genitalia
• Epididymal cysts
• Testicular cancer
• Erectile dysfunction
• Gender dysphoria
• Transsexual outcomes
• Intersex conditions
• Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (low testosterone)

[Paula_56]

Hey Paula,

I have some indications of DES exposure but will never be able to prove it. It would be interesting to know but this too is just another theory. Here are a couple of interesting links:

Clinician Information: DES Sons - Men Exposed in Utero

Men Exposed to DES Before Birth (in the Womb), Known as DES Sons

Debby

Thanks for the information GF-Paula

The use of DES (diethylstilboestrol) during the 40's and 50's and even into the 60's was a good example of good intentions, bad science. Remembering that at the time synthetic hormones were considered "wonder drugs" with few side effects known at the time (mainly because they had not been used that much yet and the medical profession was not looking for the potential side effects) DES was prescribed to help "maintain" difficult pregnancies. Additionally it would appear that aggressive marketing of the drug (again remembering at the time hormonal preparations were a goldmine for pharmaceutical companies e.g. hormonal menstruation control i.e. the pill) may have contributed to it's overuse. Certainly despite significant quality evidence available in the 1950's that DES was ineffective in maintaining pregnancy, it continued to be used until it was withdrawn in the 1970's.

All this information is readily available online as are the many suggested and proven side effects of DES. Why repeat it here?

Pertaining to my earlier post. If your mother did take DES during your pregnancy it would have been at the advice of her doctor. She most certainly would not have thought she could possibly be doing something that would in any way hurt her child. My concern then is for your relationship with your parent. Say your mother did take DES during your pregnancy. And assuming that DES did cause your gender identity (a link that whilst possible is certainly way off proven). The DES that your mother took "caused" your "abnormal" gender identity. It is not a long jump from this likely true statement to your mother feeling that you blame her for a perceived problem, even if you don't say or believe this.

I can understand why people want to find a "cause". However I suspect that the "cause" is likely to be a collection of various factors including environment before and after birth and genetics. Trying to isolate it to one particular event I suspect is not likely to be truly reflective. I am also concerned that in doing so that one can inadvertantly cause emotional distress.

I in no way blame my mother

[Kate T]

Paula

I don't think you do. Just make sure she doesn't think so either!

Reine

Certainly the coincidence of likely DES exposure and members ages of the forum is interesting however I thought from other reading that the most likely age for a TG to "accept" and "expose" oneself was 40+. Generally once one is 40+ and certainly 50+ then children have left home, in most western societies financially one is usually at their most comfortable and time is "available" to express and act on TG feelings, i.e. once one hits 40+ means and opportunity become available.

Now, if someone (Shananigans reading this?) could be persuaded to do a case control study of DES versus non DES exposed individuals and look at the incidence of TG THEN we could really work out if there was a link (mind you that still assumes that there is full disclosure by participants of any TG activity). I don't think that analysis has been done, shall we say, scientifically correctly.

[Debb]

I don't blame mom. I don't "blame" anyone... it's just good to have information.

[Dealight]

Paula, I for one want to thank you for bringing up the question. Even if there are no satisfying answers....there is no harm at all in raising the issue! Not sure why there is a touch of chastisement going on in this thread.....I can think of MANY threads here that were baseless discussions and in poor taste; this is not one of them!

Sometimes, despite the fact we like to dress as women, our male side peeks through....As noted in some of the discussion above, those with a prediliction toward science would like to educate the rest of us. Let's fix the problem! Sometimes, fellas......a girl (gurl) just needs to be listened to.........

As a DES baby born in '59, a scientist (who would have thought?), and a heterosexual guy who LOVES to dress up in women's clothing, and have as far as I can remember....I find the questions interesting.

[SusanCACD]

I do not know about all of this stuff of DES, however I would like to find answers as to why I am like I am.
Susan

[ThiHi]

I think its the reason many of us are on these boards, to learn.

[Ann Thomas]

Wow this is a very interesting thread! I was born during that time, and *could* have been exposed to DES. Problem is, I've never heard of it before, and my mom now has dementia. I am planning on calling my aunt this weekend, so I'll ask her if she knows about it. My wife is convinced that I was exposed to elevated levels of female hormones before birth, contributing to my crossdressing. But, that doesn't explain why my dad was a crossdresser.

[Monica]

Been born in the early 50's, I remember asking my mother about that. All she remember is that she was given pills. In Quebec at the time, women were not to question anything from a doctor or a priest. With the amount of prescription pills she popped during the other pregnancies I witnessed in the early 60's, it is very likely I was exposed. Her MD was prescribing pills, lots of them. But she has no idea what they were.

Monica

[Ellen Renee Edwards]

I suspect that I too am a DES son. I first stumbled on the subject 4 years ago, and I fit the profile. I was born in 1956. My mother had several miscarriages before I was born. I cannot verify that she was on DES. She is now 96 and her memory has deteriorated. She also has outlasted 4 of her general practice doctors and any records they may have had are long since gone. I too took the CDC survey which indicated a good probability of DES history.

My D2 to D4 finger ratio is also dead even. I know this subject has been debated in the forums, but this does seem to be a marker that, statistically at least, our hormonal levels may have been outside the norm somewhere around the 14th week of mom’s pregnancy.

Most of the information I have found on DES (diethylstilbestrol) has come from the web, but a great chapter on the subject is found in the book, The Riddle of Gender: Science, Activism, and Transgender Rights, by Deborah Rudacille (ISBN-13: 978-0375421624).

I am not looking for something or someone to blame. Blame is only necessary if something is incorrect or wrong. After 55 years, I like who I am. It may have been easier to fit into the normal profile, but I don’t think I would change a thing. Would I want my sons to go through this? No, but it would have worked out if they had. Instead, the information I have seen on DES and endocrinology has come more as a eureka moment or a revelation.

The story doesn’t stop here nor eventually die out with those who were administered this chemical that was outlawed in the 1970’s. The number of endocrine disruptors acting in our post and prenatal environments continues to grow. Pseudo-estrogens have either been linked or suspected to cause problems in the development and wiring of our brain in the womb, to early onset of puberty and development in girls, breast cancer in women, and sperm quality degeneration and lower count in men. There are studies that suggest sperm count has dropped as much as 50% in some parts of industrialized locations in the last 50 years. Look up the works of Dr. Theo Colborn among others.

Sure, I am concerned about the environmental impacts on greenhouse gases and the ice sheets in Antarctica, but I am growing far more concerned about our environmental impacts on ourselves. I am beginning to think the icecaps may far outlive humanity. I’m not a gloom and doomer and I’m not against modern chemical science, but care, research, and the spread of information need to be a priority. My macho side says get up and do something and my nurturing side says pray for our children..

I have rambled on much further than I intended when my original purpose was to say yes, I really suspect that I may very well be one of the DES Other Daughters.

Love and balance to all,
Ellen