hormones and functionality

[Lorileah]

In response to Quote Originally Posted by Dianne S
OK, this is a bit tangential, but loss of male sexual functioning is not an inevitable consequence of HRT. Some people can continue to function, especially once their bodies adjust to the new levels of hormones.
Reine D responded.

Not according to reports from the bulk of TSs who have been on female hormones for years, although the time it takes to do this may vary
If anyone wants to engage in a discussion about the effectiveness of HRT on various people, please start a different thread. I really would like to keep this thread on track.

So I will.

This is a fairly common misconception among people who aren't transitioning. That when you take estrogen you become totally non-functional.

Just a few thoughts that most people don't consider.

Eunuchs may have been there to guard the harem, but that didn't stop their "desires". Maybe with time the physical parts would shrink, but they still were sexual beings and there were reports of "dalliances" between slaves and the eunuchs. The king (or whatever) didn't care about that. They just wanted to make sure that the children born were theirs.

Transsexuals are still sexually responsive and receptive. You see, you really don't need testosterone to function. It may take awhile and physical parameters may not be the same (Think size...) but TS's can and DO react like males....right up until the physical part is gone.

It seems interesting to me that GGs buy this when they are sexual beings themselves who physiologically respond, albeit in a smaller yet similar fashion, to stimulation. Think analogous parts and then think what happens. No you don't see an obvious change unless you look closely, but the same change occurs. It is a fundamental part of what SRS surgeons are striving for. sexual function. We can do it!

Now it is true that how quickly and how long it lasts does vary. But when a male is 18 response and recovery time are significantly faster than at 50. Now there is where testosterone plays a part...how quickly one can become...interested.

If you ask 100 TS's here (which would not be a good idea if you value your existence) you will get results varying from totally working to not working at all.

In otherwords, don't buy that testosterone is the ONLY hormone that makes things work.

Also, so as not to hijack the other thread, I have to wonder where the line between transitioning and NOT transitioning is. So many there said they would take hormones and live with the consequences BUT they didn't want to transition. I would be very interested in hearing how you could take hormones, have surgery and even as some said change you name and not be transitioning? Please don't make this a debate over semantics, but state your feelings on where the tipping point is. In some states you need the surgery to get the marker change. Is getting the marker change the criteria?

BTW, anyone can respond.

[Donnagirl]

I tend to agree.... And I'm not sure where I fit...
I'm more than a simple happy cross dresser, (probably) not quite TS.
Hormones - yes...
Still functional - yes.... Following doctors instructions, pretty much the more you use it the better function will remain. Wife happy and wants it to stay.
Transitioning - probably not see above.
Presenting full time - eventually I think it's inevitable...
Change name - my wife recently had a mental blank and forgot my male name introducing me, she hadn't used it for so long.... It's only Donna with her...

[Jennifer in CO]

Texas 1980's While "transitioned", over time I had to get two drivers licenses. In both cases, and even though outwardly I appeared totally female, because I still had something between my legs my DL said "male". The second time I even pushed the limits of social acceptance and wore a marginal bikini top with a thin cover shirt so that the girls were big and on display.
Didn't matter.
Since I didn't have a Dr's statement stating I HAD transitioned (ie SRS) I was still "officially" male to the State of Texas. Six months later I started my transition back to the guy side anyway so it didn't matter. EXCEPT...that dang photograph now on my license that was obviously a girl and I was now trying to be a boy. THAT was more problems that using my license the other way.
So my take is its not whats in your head or body or hormones or anything else. Its when you can convince the State your in that your now the opposite sex. THEN you have transitioned.

[Lorileah]

So my take is its not whats in your head or body or hormones or anything else. Its when you can convince the State your in that your now the opposite sex. THEN you have transitioned.

so the state gets to decide? My DL says F. The state gave that...(can of worms here huh? )

[PaulaQ]

My sexual experiences are substantially better now that I'm on HRT. There are a lot of ways to be stimulated and fulfilled - I'm quite certain a lot more than most people who's libido's are still powered by testosterone know about. I didn't particularly enjoy having sex the way heterosexual men are generally expected to do it.

My expectation is that this is liable to be better, and I'll enjoy it more, once I've had GRS.

The downside, from my perspective, is that it can sometimes be more difficult sometimes to climax (if my mood isn't there, it's not happening). A fair amount of this is psychological - until I have surgery, it's possible for a careless partner to make me feel pretty dysphoric. (This is a fairly common issue for partnering with a trans person - you have to know and avoid triggers.) The upside is that while I have a fairly healthy libido, it's a lot easier for me to ignore it than it was before.

As for the loss of male sexual function - mine isn't all gone, but I'll certainly be glad when it is. Good riddance! It's mostly gone though - I certainly couldn't penetrate anything, not effectively. Again, that isn't a problem, it's a benefit from my perspective.

I have plenty of sexual function - I found the assertion in another thread that I did not to be pretty insulting, particularly since most of the readers of that thread are likely to have any idea that other things are possible. When you have an erection, it's very difficult to pay attention to much else. Without that distraction, so many other possibilities are available.

I believe there are multiple types of transition, which is why the issue of "when are you transitioning" is problematical to discuss. It's not a single thing:
- social transition - coming out, subsequently beginning live your life as the gender you identify as
- job transition - you deal with having a job as part of your social transition
- medical transition - you begin to take medical treatments that are gender related: HRT, hair removal, facial surgery, breast augmentation, gender reassignment surgery, etc.
- legal transition - you alter your state / federal identity documents to match your gender

Not everyone will do all of these. Not everyone can do all of these.

[Bria]

Transition is a process of moving from one state to another, for this discussion, M2F, F2M. Paula has suggested a number of logical markers and also points out that not al transitioners will tick all of those boxes.

I think that one has completed the process when THEY say that they are done, however it would seem that one would tick at least two of Paula's boxes, but I think it's each to their own. When are you happy with yourself, when are you comfortable with your position in society.

My 2 cents!

Hugs, Bria

[flatlander_48]

In otherwords, don't buy that testosterone is the ONLY hormone that makes things work.

Looking at it another way, this is approximately how the aging process works. As men age, we have less testosterone available, but as far as I know we are not producing more of other substances.


DeeAnn

[docrobbysherry]

I DO find the range of TS's confusing until I know where they r now and where they plan to end up?

Maybe we need a TS scale of 1 thru 10? With 1 being a closet crossdresser. And, 10 being a TS with fully functioning female parts?

[LilSissyStevie]

I haven't had much "male functionality" in a while. I don't care because "normal" sex doesn't excite me in the least. For a while I tried those magic pills. They work but give me a headache. That doesn't mean I don't have sex, I just don't have "normal" AKA boring sex. There is more than one way to skin a "cat" as they say. Not everybody has my situation though. My wife is as kinky as me and has much higher libido. She's not limited to a narrow repertoire of sexual practices. So we can make sex work without whatsisname getting involved.

[Lorileah]

OK but the question is...when is one TS? Is it when you describe yourself as a woman? I am just a bit confused here. You can take hormones, you can get a DL with gender marker change and not be TS?

Paula says

- social transition - coming out, subsequently beginning live your life as the gender you identify as

So the question is now, those those people who dress 24/7 aren't TS but are hard core CDs? If they live as a woman (i.e. clothing actions telling people their name is the femme name) they are transitioning or not?
-

job transition - you deal with having a job as part of your social transition

just this week ago a member here asked if it would be OK to dress at work sometimes.

- medical transition - you begin to take medical treatments that are gender related: HRT, hair removal, facial surgery, breast augmentation, gender reassignment surgery, etc.

the other thread was asking that question. If you could take hormones/FFS/ Breast enhancement...are you still then a male who is dressing or is that the step to transitioning?

- legal transition - you alter your state / federal identity documents to match your gender

see post#3 above. What IF your state says not without surgery...you are still transitioning right? Or do you remain a man?

OK the point here is that how we decide to do or NOT do things is confusing, not only to those around us but ESPECIALLY to our SO's. Can you see the angst that a SO has when her (husband/partner) says "Honey, I just want boobs, I promise nothing else will change" Or when you take hormones to shift body shape... and then you say "I am just a man who like looking like a woman". Isn't that confusing to anyone else? Sort of like going to a buffet and seeing what your table mate got and saying...Geez I wish I had that and then going back ti get it? If your SO said "Honey I want to grow a beard because I think they look cool...but I am still going to be a woman, however the side effects may make it so we can't have the same relationship..." Don't you see why SO's are nervous and confused?

There is no right answer but I just think some need a different perspective...

[flatlander_48]

The problem is that you would need to define an infinite number of points on the transgender scale from occasional crossdressing to post-op transsexual. Personally, I believe that to be a fool's errand...

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

taking that then, why even have the definitions? Why do some object to said definitions? Good argument for just calling everyone transgender, right? Otherwise there has to be a tipping point. Bachelors->Masters->PhD. There are lines. Same with the trades. Same with aging (albeit arbitrary):infant, toddler, tween, teen, young adult, adult, middle age...yet it is a spectrum. To me and many other TSs it isn't a spectrum, it is a we "know". But the reason for the question is that so many CDs are set in stone that they are men in women's clothing and nothing more except...hormones, or hair removal, or FFS, or the big one wanting to be with a man ONLY when dressed.

I fully understand there is no right answer here. Everyone has their line in the sand. I was just curious where that line is for different people

(not sure I like being called a "fool" either. Questions that you may not find challenging have meaning to others )

[Nadine Spirit]

Very interesting thread. My opinion is that transition is when someone has decided to live full time, basically exclusively, as the opposite gender as they have been living as. To me, what you do like HRT or GRS is not as relevant as how you are choosing to face the world. I know that what a state will put on your license, M or F, is very important to many people, but to me it has no relevance in a discussion about when one has transitioned. No state can decide such things for you.

[ReineD]

Lori, thanks for posting this. I've just changed the wording in the first paragraph of my thread from [complete loss of sexual functioning] to [partial to complete loss of male sexual functioning], to be more precise.

I went by what people have told me and what I have read in this forum. This is the basis for my statement:

1.

• All three wives (that I know personally) of transitioned TSs who have not had SRS have told me there was a complete loss of sexual functioning.

2. A recent post by a transitioned TS in a Loved Ones thread:

• "It's my understanding that there is no such thing as "low dose HRT" where one gains psychological benefits (whatever those might be, I suspect placebo in most cases) but one does not begin to alter ones chemistry and subsequently ones body. There is a threshold dose below which nothing happens and above which chemical transition occurs. If the dose is low but above the threshold it will just take longer to work its magic. This is the opinion of my endocrinologist, I asked some time ago as this question routinely comes up in the TS section in one way or another."

3. This is what I read in the Ask-A-Transsexual thread just in the last few months, in response to specific questions about sex:

• "Don't touch hormones if you don't want anything affecting your "package." (#205)
  
  
• "took just a few weeks to lose the "morning wood" after about 2 years it will not function at all in a male way." (#206)
  
  
• "the results are variable in what happens to your body, however, the package will be affected." (#207)
  
  
• "I lost my libido early on in HRT" (although has an interest in sex post-op). (#218)
  
  
• "Sex is an issue for both of us and does crop up from time to time but so far we are making it work and not focusing on the physical side we are both missing (for my part the addition of decapeptyl anti androgen helped me immensely in that department!). (#223)
  
  
• "Sex has been off the table for a very, very long time." (#227)
  
  
• "We do have sex. It isn't like it used to be and it isn't like it will be (I am scheduled for surgery). Without details, the closest I can say it is exploratory." (#228)
  
  
• "It's really nothing like having sex as a male." (#229)

4. I don't have the time to comb through each thread in the TS section to isolate all the instances I have read when people have mentioned shrinkage and non-male-functioning, but I did find one thread that discussed this specifically. I gather the responses vary because people have been on HRT for different amounts of time.

Summary of Responses:

• Tanked.
  
  
• Went to nothing, is now up but in a different way than ever before.
  
  
• Down then up then down and came back after SRS but very different.
  
  
• Can't find my libido.
  
  
• After a year, no libido.
  
  
• Libido never completely went away but has been drastically reduced.
  
  
• Libido changed in about 3 months. Not completely in the tank, orgasm though is out of the equation.
  
  
• The physical side sleeps most of the time, and rarely wakes up for visuals anymore.
  
  
• The interest is still there only less often … but happy to have less libido.
  
  
• Libido went down dramatically as soon as I decided that Yes, I was definitely going to go ahead with HRT (psychological component).
  
  
• Mine has been zero for quite some time.
  
  
• Libido still hasn't dropped, yet tissue shrinkage has begun.
  
  
• libido did drop a bit, but in many ways that was a relief.
  
  
• My libido has been all over the map … I seem to be at my "best" when my T is up a little.
  
  
• 13 months on hrt, and my libido is MIA.
  
  
• Used to be very sexual but now it is rare that I even think of it and when I do it is just a fleeting thought that lasts maybe 30 seconds.

I DO find the range of TS's confusing until I know where they r now and where they plan to end up?

Maybe we need a TS scale of 1 thru 10? With 1 being a closet crossdresser. And, 10 being a TS with fully functioning female parts?

Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with such a scale, but I don't know how well regarded it is in current trans-circles:

http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Origi...ginalChart.jpg

[flatlander_48]

taking that then, why even have the definitions?

Definitions are the linguistic tools that facilitate communication. Without definitions, it would be much more difficult to communicate. You could say a black, round rubber device that, when attached to a vehicle, may maintain traction with the ground or paved surfaces in order to provide directional stability. Or, you could just say: Tire...

Why do some object to said definitions?

I believe it is because some people are afraid to claim their appropriate identities and that they would like to avoid the notion as much as possible.

Good argument for just calling everyone transgender, right?

No, it is a very generalized term. The next level is needed. The thought processes and behaviors of crossdressers are very different from those of transsexuals.

To me and many other TSs it isn't a spectrum, it is a we "know".

I don't understand this.

But the reason for the question is that so many CDs are set in stone that they are men in women's clothing and nothing more except...hormones, or hair removal, or FFS, or the big one wanting to be with a man ONLY when dressed.

As far as I know, no one has created a name for this. Even if one did exist, I don't think it would serve much purpose.

(not sure I like being called a "fool" either. Questions that you may not find challenging have meaning to others )

Fool's Errand = a effort with little or no chance of success; a wild goose chase...

Trying to split hairs and define all of the infinite number of variations between crossdresser and transsexual is a Fool's Errand, as I stated previously. And no, you were not being called a fool.

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

i think Lorileah is asking for non-semantic answers. Where is our boundary of TS/not TS?

I'm on the non-TS side, as i'm mostly "man in a dress", but then i have small natural moobs, and i'd like them bigger. Having had vasectomy long time ago its like a eunuch, might go there one day, but would want to keep normal sexual function as male, like the idea of estrogen for boobs, but id still say i'm male or perhaps gender-fluid in that case. Does it make me TS? not in my mind.

[ReineD]

OK but the question is...when is one TS? Is it when you describe yourself as a woman? I am just a bit confused here. You can take hormones, you can get a DL with gender marker change and not be TS?

A lot of people here have their very own personal definition of "TS", "TG", and even "CD". For example, a post-op's definition of TS is different than a CDer's who says he is TS because he wants to have breasts and hide them while in male mode. Some people think that CD refers to fetish only, and dressing to go out and blend is "TG", while some non-fetish CDers quite happily refer to themselves as CD. Even the terms "man" or "woman" are in question here at times. I've read posts from CDers who attach a conditional meaning to the term "woman" when they refer to themselves as such while dressed, but not while in male mode.

So I'm afraid it has become useless to define anyone by "CD", "TG", "TS" in this forum, if you are talking one-on-one with them. The definition might better be, "I identify fundamentally as a man, as a woman, as a mix of both genders, or as no gender". And hopefully most people will share the same definition of what is fundamentally a man and a woman. I honestly think there are only a few people who mix things up. (Parenthetically, when referring to groups as a whole in this forum I think it's pretty safe to use the shorthand "CD" for people who will not transition, "TS" for people who will, and "TG" for the community at large.)

So what is transition? I suppose this depends on a person's end point. If the end goal is to completely adopt the physical characteristics, social conventions, and change all legal markers to the sex opposite than birth, and live it 24/7, this is full transition.

If the end point is to adopt some of the physical characteristics (i.e. boobs only but otherwise presenting as male) and some of the social conventions (i.e. dressing up sometimes), or only change to "F" on the driver's license and a credit card but nothing else and retain a male name and be known as a man to certain groups of people, then this is partial transition.

For the few people whose definitions of "man" and "woman" differ from what is considered usual in our society, we cannot argue when they say they are women despite having no intention of living as one. They have the right to their own definitions.

But, we can point out that the other side of the coin is how we are perceived by others. What enables the efficient exchange of ideas in any language is having common definitions. It does no good to order a banana split at a restaurant and be served broccoli in cheese sauce, because this is the waitress' personal definition of a banana split. We live in societies that define men and women primarily by their facial appearance, their body shapes, the clothes they wear, their voices, their legal names, and the consistency of these things. All of these things are necessary not one or two of them or not some of one and some of the other. I left out genitals because few people see them. I am speaking of perceptions at large.

So a person can define themselves as a woman as much as they want to, but until they actually take the steps to undergo full transition they won't be perceived as one. If they enjoy living this way, so be it, but they cannot blame others for not thinking they are women, not even some of the members of this community. If on the other hand they do present mixed gender cues then it would be more accurate to tell people they are gender fluid; the presentation would match the label. Or they can say they identify as women but choose to live as men who dress sometimes, and allow that others will likely perceive them as males.

Sorry for the length of this post and the other.

[Sandie70]

This is an interesting thread. Certainly, for me, there is a strong sexual component to crossdressing, but I find a level of satisfaction that goes beyond the physical. There is an eroticism to dressing that I find quite exciting - something that happens within ones mind and doesn't need a physical response. Of course, I do have thoughts of carrying things to a higher level... hormones, etc., but to be honest, when I think of transitioning, I am mostly interested in feminizing myself - not fully transitioning. I can even see myself getting breast augmentation at some point. But what I suppose I'm saying is that I would be quite happy to live as a woman, but retain my male functionality. And to be completely honest, I am bi... something that greatly skews the whole equation. As I am attracted to men as well as women sexually, I find gender role changing to be a puzzle that is both daunting and pleasurable at the same time. I guess when it comes down to it, this is one of those things where you simply close your eyes and enjoy the journey. As Doris Day once sang: Que sera, sera / Whatever will be, will be / The future's not ours to see / Que sera, sera.

[PaulaQ]

We don't need definitions to define others. People need to define themselves. That is the crux of the problem here. Yeah, there are people who are binary like me - I'm a woman. Its that simple. I'm undergoing medical treatment to make my body match what my mind tells me it's supposed to be. My identity as a woman is very strong.

Not everyone feels this way, and even though such persons may be hard to relate to for most non - transgender people, they deserve to be treated with dignity.

[Teresa]

Lorileah,
Going back to your original question on hormones and functionality !
I've often thought what my feelings towards Cding be if my testosterone level dropped ? My dressing started as sexual and has remained so ! Ok I enjoy the dressing beyond that now but it is not diminishing as much as other members say, even for my age ! I've never looked into cases of how late in life it can exist, so when it does it's going to be interesting if the need to dress continues ! Maybe I'll stop completely or be like most members and find that other feelings have taken over and the need is still there even to the point of taking hormones !
I feel very much like Bruce Jenner that I've enjoyed doing the male things, and fathering of children, but those feeling are diminishing and something else is taking over !
Unlike BJ I'm in a DADT situation so my only outlet for my thoughts is the forum ! Thank goodness it exists !!!

[flatlander_48]

So what is transition? I suppose this depends on a person's end point. If the end goal is to completely adopt the physical characteristics, social conventions, and change all legal markers to the sex opposite than birth, and live it 24/7, this is full transition.

If the end point is to adopt some of the physical characteristics (i.e. boobs only but otherwise presenting as male) and some of the social conventions (i.e. dressing up sometimes), or only change to "F" on the driver's license and a credit card but nothing else and retain a male name and be known as a man to certain groups of people, then this is partial transition.

With respect to those who would like to transition, but for various reasons they cannot, it would seem that they do fit here.

DeeAnn

[Dianne S]

I believe Reine was referring specifically to male sexual functioning, which I interpret as the ability to get an erection and perform as a male.

I've only been on hormones for a short time (about 7 weeks). Although my libido has decreased tremendously, which is a good thing seeing as I'm not in a relationship, I know for sure I'm still "functional".

I have a TS friend who's been on HRT for more than one year and she reports similarly. As with everything transition-related, we need to preface blanket statements with a YMMV.

Edit: I suspect that a lot of what's interpreted as a loss of functionality is really a loss of interest. My therapist gave stats that I've heard bandied about elsewhere, that about 1/3 of MTFs continue to be attracted to women, 1/3 to men and 1/3 become disinterested in either. In my case, I don't really care if I "function" as a male or not because I'm not interested in that except very rarely when a bit of sexual tension builds up and needs release.

[ReineD]

With respect to those who would like to transition, but for various reasons they cannot, it would seem that they do fit here.

It's a question of assigning responsibility and determining who, in the end, exercises the choices.

When you say, "they cannot", the reality is that they "choose" not to. They follow their own priorities which in most cases are to maintain relationships with families, keep jobs, and not subject themselves to potentially being outcast by the communities they live in. It is still their choice. I know it's difficult having gender issues but at what point does one stop being a victim and start taking responsibility for one's own actions. If the priority was to transition above maintaining the status-quo, they would.

The exception to this would be a medical reason for not being able to undergo SRS. But, someone in that position can certainly transition fully in terms of living 24/7 and changing all the legal markers, or as many as are possible under the laws of their State.

[karenpayneoregon]

I had functionality right up to a week prior to GRS which is when I said C'est la vie to the old parts and had been using those parts for the entire time on female hormones about once or twice a month.

[Tammy Kenderson]

I want to do the right thing and use doctors for SRS, but 1) do not have the money (disabled) 2) no one will take my case. I recently had a double hernia op.