Do we treat women differently than other males?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Rebecca, I have always respected women.

[ReineD]

Reine,I take offense at your comment about the construction field, ...

I was responding to this:

My wife works with contractors as a vendor, and she has a few that treat her very poorly including talking poorly of her to their mutual customers.

I took it that M/R was referring to construction contractors and it is not the first time that I read comments about men in the construction field who do not respect women as equals in their profession. My point earlier wasn't to say that all men who work in this field are sexist. I instead proposed the idea that since this is a field that requires more physical strength than say working in an office, it is not as heavily populated with women as other fields, and for this reason women might be accepted more slowly than in other fields. In other words, I was trying to tell M/R that his wife's experiences with rude male contractors is not typical among men as a whole.

I'm sorry if I offended you.

AND, yes we are better than most men!

Lol, M/R. When I was growing up, I was taught that it is arrogant and conceited to walk around thinking I am better than others, let alone saying it out loud!

One person is just as good as the next, whether they CD or not.

[Sammy777]

Asking this question is much akin to asking people what they think their IQ* is.

*Baseline of "Average IQ" is 100.
2% [Gifted or Genius] 130+ range
14% [Superior] 116-129 range.
34% [high average] 100-115 range.
34% [low average] 85-99 range.
16% [impaired/delayed] sub 85 range.

So 68% of the population makes up the hi/low average. Nothing wrong with being average right? Someone has to be.

Yet, if you were to ask 100 or 1000 or 10,000 people what range they think they fit into on the chart above?
A disproportionately high number of people will say the Superior or Genius range.
Why? Because people in general do not like to believe they are merely average, let alone below average.

I think the same rules can be applied here to the question at hand :D

[Katey888]

We-e-e-ll.... Some of us probably do... and some of us probably don't. Not much help I know, but it is the weekend...

Sexism and chauvinism is alive, well and kicking in more than just the construction industry - I think it's a little Utopian to think that we might be amongst the last generation that reflects these attitudes, but at least things are improving.

Personally, in business, I try to deal respectfully with everyone regardless of gender, race, culture or class (most societies do reflect a class element even though most will deny it) but I have a pet theory about human nature and that it's our conscious self that overcomes a natural tendency to be parochial - it's just that most folk (the 'average' ones Sammy has referenced) never bother to think about how their world view might be changed, broadened or improved. I think because we also cover such a broad range of behaviours here it's difficult to generalise about CDers even just on this forum - if we were talking about CDers that identify more as TG, then there might be something more deeply connected, but then women can be horrid to each other too... sometimes scarily so...

Katey x

[femmale]

Im polite towards everyone (more so towards females though) and dislike sexist comments made towards women. I get along far better with women and Im hopeless at making conversation with men especially at work.

[Jeninus]

Sometimes the differences can be frustrating. Two examples: I have, over the years, bought a lot of new cars. I have usually done my homework before entering the showroom. Typically, if you are dealing with a female sales agent and start asking specific questions about the car you are interested in - its features (engine, transmission, suspension, etc.) the female sales agent will, more likely than not, have to confer with a male sales person to get the answer. This can be very frustrating and leaves the impression that she is unprepared for her job and out of her depth. Can you respect her as much as the male sales person who has studied his product and knows the answer? If you don't - and I don't - I still treat her with the utmost respect. But then I am both TG and a lawyer (a field in which extremely smart female lawyers are everywhere and they will slice and dice you with consummate ease if you aren't prepared, so you gotta respect them and this bleeds over into other areas of life).

A second example is selling or buying a home. Females seem to predominate in home sales. My experience has been that they are highly professional and really know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale. In this case, they definitely have earned their respect, as opposed to the female new car sales agent.

Perhaps in the case of a woman who has to deal with contractors, a lack of deep knowledge about construction materials, supplies and methods has led to a lack of respect in a rough and highly competitive field dominated by hard-driving no-nonsense males.

[Ally 2112]

i was brought up to respect all people as best as i could as far as women go i respect them a little bit more .This could stem from being a crossdresser and kind of knowing what they go through on a daily basis and raising 2 daughters

[jamielynn_ca]

I think perhaps we have the opportunity to be more compassionate, whether or not all CD's take advantage of this is their own personal decision. I think those that are out and about in the vanilla and LGBT world on occasion can gain a better perspective of how women are really treated.

Here's an interesting quote from To Kill a Mockingbird, with "his" changed to "her" for our audience:

[...] You never really understand a person until you consider things from her point of view […] until you climb into her skin and walk around in it.

Consider the domestic violence stats in the US (source - http://www.thehotline.org/resources/statistics/)
- Nearly 3 in 10 women (29%) and 1 in 10 men (10%) in the US have experienced rape, physical violence and/or stalking by a partner and report a related impact on their functioning. (as a side note - I've been told by an activist that the number is even higher for TS women)
- From 1994 to 2010, about 4 in 5 victims of intimate partner violence (IPV) were female
- Nearly, 15% of women (14.8%) and 4% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included rape, physical violence and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

Having spent time en femme out, I've been cat-called by a group of guys from across the street (they didn't make me as TG), groped, slapped on the butt, experienced the "creepy eyed guy" in the bar watching me all night, and even fear of possible violence just walking one block to my car. I think I posted about that incident a while ago. The point is, having grown up with all sisters and myself having only daughters - I though I was already more compassionate towards women. But experiencing the fear first hand was a wake up call. And it made me sad that my daughters will have to face the possibility of violence every day of their lives.

So - get out there. Experience it. And I hope it DOES change your perspective and help you treat women differently.

[Mark/Rebecca]

Jamielynn, I think you cut off the last part of the quote "said Buffalo Bill" LOL. Of course I do agree with you.

Jeninus, as owner/partners and my wife being the manager, she is nothing but professional. This neanderthal just talks down to women particularly in authoritative positions. I do think I am an advocate of the female in business, and when asked my opinion, I have responded with "I tend to want to give her anything she wants" in the past. Perhaps my motives are not completely altruistic as this usually increases the size of the project.

Reine, I am glad you took it in the spirit it was intended.

[Jeninus]

Jeninus, as owner/partners and my wife being the manager, she is nothing but professional. This neanderthal just talks down to women particularly in authoritative positions.

M/R, this happens everywhere. Virtually every female attorney will tell you that she has been mistaken for a secretary or paralegal when approaching a new client - and some clients refuse to accept the professionalism of a female attorney. Female doctors are mistaken for nurses, etc. Perhaps it's a societal thing, with a mixture of low expectations and resentment founded on a baseless assumption of some sort of affirmative action advantage afforded to women.

Unfortunately, the Neanderthal gene appears to have survived the onslaught of the Cro-Magnon! According to some studies our fellow citizens out there have 1 - 4% Neanderthal genes. Your wife's antagonist may have a disproportionately high level. Perhaps he will, like many contractors, declare bankruptcy before too long and be out of her hair.

[Sammy777]

Typically, if you are dealing with a female sales agent and start asking specific questions about the car you are interested in - its features (engine, transmission, suspension, etc.) the female sales agent will, more likely than not, have to confer with a male sales person to get the answer.

A second example is selling or buying a home. Females seem to predominate in home sales. My experience has been that they are highly professional and really know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale.

I hate to burst your bubble, but do you realize just how sexist these comments really sound?
When it comes to a typically "Male Dominated" field and profession like automobiles and auto sales women are ill equipped to handle the job.

I know car sales people, and let me tell you that most men, specially in new cars, know little more about car specs, or cars for that matter then what they memorized from the sales brochure. There are also many sales women who are more then just a pretty face in a skirt.

In fact I've known more then a few men in the field who had ZERO knowledge about automobiles.
But when they're asked the same questions and have no clue it doesn't seem to matter.

Yet, in real estate sales women "know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale".
So women know how to clean a house, make it pretty and smell like cookies.
Yet like automobile saleswomen, just don't ask them about the heating system or hot water specs because they will probably have to confer to the male agent in the office right?

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Interesting thread! Becoming more femme has only underlined to me the differences between males and females.

Sammy777: crying 'sexist!' when you encounter statements like Jeninus's strikes me as a PC kneejerk based on idealism and ignoring an avalanche of evidence. Without getting too bogged down in such an old argument, perhaps you could suggest a reason why less than 1% of garage mechanics are female?

[pamela7]

i recently visited a nearby garage having first spoken on the phone several times with the lady who represented the service area. Let me tell you she more than knew everything. I don't think I've ever had such an informed and professional interaction.

I've in the past felt like a second-citizen at a garage as the mechanics clearly know things I don't and looked down on my lack of engine know-how - and that was me in drab long before CD-ing. It has been largely true that the man has to speak to the garage mechanic, the woman has to speak to the hairdresser about the kids. However, society is changing, there are far more home-care dads with wives out at work, single-parent families of either gender parent. The boundaries will continue to blur, and as they do the treatment issue will change.

[ReineD]

LOL. While reading all the comments here, it strikes me that responses (including my own) reflect the member's own views of gender disparity. So is there an unequivocal, unalterable, objective truth, or is it a question of an individual looking at the world as a glass half full or half empty. Are some of our members sexist and because if it they see this as being the norm?

Truth and reality are subjective. I don't see myself as less capable than a man. Therefore, I do not detect sexism among the males I interact with, except the very few who are flagrant about it but as I said earlier, these men are dominate among other men too. This is also true of dominate women who also are out there. Men do not have a monopoly on superiority.

[Lorileah]

LOL. While reading all the comments here, it strikes me that responses (including my own) reflect the member's own views of gender disparity.

sort of what the OP was asking isn't it? Do TGs treat GGs different than GMs. That's disparity

[ReineD]

No, I meant looking at it as if most non-TG-men are sexist, vs not. In my experience, in my day-to-day dealings with men, they are not. In someone else's experiences, they are. So where's the truth.

I don't think that TGs are particularly less sexist, since I don't personally experience it in the wider male population (except as stated, by a few just as I've run across some women who are also dismissive). And then again how do we define sexism. We've had quite a few threads about TGs who portray women in a manner that most women do not portray themselves, so is this a form of sexism?

[Jeninus]

I hate to burst your bubble, but do you realize just how sexist these comments really sound?
When it comes to a typically "Male Dominated" field and profession like automobiles and auto sales women are ill equipped to handle the job.

I know car sales people, and let me tell you that most men, specially in new cars, know little more about car specs, or cars for that matter then what they memorized from the sales brochure. There are also many sales women who are more then just a pretty face in a skirt.

In fact I've known more then a few men in the field who had ZERO knowledge about automobiles.
But when they're asked the same questions and have no clue it doesn't seem to matter.

Yet, in real estate sales women "know everything about how a home is to be prepared and presented for sale".
So women know how to clean a house, make it pretty and smell like cookies.
Yet like automobile saleswomen, just don't ask them about the heating system or hot water specs because they will probably have to confer to the male agent in the office right?

Your signature line says it all... it sums you up.
Sure, we could all be Totally Politically Correct here and pretend that some differences don't exist and that experience isn't a guide - not 100%, but still a guide. But then what's the point of having a discussion? For every question we would simply have to look up the PC template and there we'd find our answer.

[Sammy777]

Without getting too bogged down in such an old argument, perhaps you could suggest a reason why less than 1% of garage mechanics are female?

I could make a long post with plenty of reasons backed up with fancy pie charts and graphs. lol
Short version = From a very young age Girls are not encouraged to pursue such fields as science and industry.
And even when they still persist to show an interest they are often not taken seriously or met with ridicule.

Granted it may be better now (I hope!) but when I was in HS, Vocational school programs were all VERY male dominated. The small amount of females that did attend (surprise, surprise) wound up in the Culinary class, go figure?.

There was one girl who was in the automotive class with me. She lasted about three weeks. Why?
Not because she could not handle the work, or because of "just being a girl" changed her mind.
No, it was because she was never left alone, always getting singled out and patronized more times then not.
Not to mention the "she MUST be a Lesbian". Oh wait it wasn't put that nice, more like "Check out the Dyke".
She was basically run out of the "Boy's club". Plain and simple. Something I am sure still very much happens today.

It has been my personal experience that the majority of girls who have an automotive [mechanic's] background and pursued it as a career usually had a father, uncle, ect in the field. And more importantly, usually had either no older brothers, or was the only girl in a large family of sons. (Meaning she was probably treated as one of the boys)

I hate to generalize, but the avg girl has about the same chance of getting hired as a mechanic as a straight guy does getting hired in a hair salon "That was, I say that was a joke son" -Foghorn leghorn

[Mark/Rebecca]

I wasn't going to say it Jeninus, but your initial comment seemed to suggest that perhaps she was not qualified or competent for the work. I am sure you were just being the devils advocate or going through the motions of your job. Ultimately, perhaps Reine is right (as usual) that there is likely just as much deviation in our views of women as the general public. Perhaps though not as extreme in the negative sense, but lets face it, how many of us want to be Donna Reed.

[Jeninus]

I wasn't going to say it Jeninus, but your initial comment seemed to suggest that perhaps she was not qualified or competent for the work. I am sure you were just being the devils advocate or going through the motions of your job. Ultimately, perhaps Reine is right (as usual) that there is likely just as much deviation in our views of women as the general public. Perhaps though not as extreme in the negative sense, but lets face it, how many of us want to be Donna Reed.

You clarified in a later post that your wife was more than qualified to handle her job, so the issue clearly was with her antagonist who had no excuse for his reprehensible behavior toward your wife, and behind her back. The thread - as they so often do - expanded somewhat beyond your original posting toward a discussion regarding the difficulties many women face when they enter non-traditional fields.