Crossing dressing and dating guys?

[PhillyGuy2Girl]

I have determined I am a dyed-in-the-wool lesbian. I use to ask myself the same question about men, and yes, I did some "experimenting", and it was deeply disappointing. The fantasy was much better and only served to reinforce the fact that I LOVE LOVE LOVE women!

Same Here. I love women and always attracted to the female form. As someone said earlier I'm figuring how GG's are attracted to men.



Felicity :)

[erika130]

I love women and always attracted to the female form . As someone said earlier I'm figuring how GG's are attracted to men. Felicity :)

Couldn't have said it better !!

[Karen Smith]

well, women too sometimes, but less frequently and explicitly. I'm shy (still a virgin :sad:) but i love the confidence and direct way men have. I've always fantasized about intimacy, too. I'm kind of a tease--will flirt with men if they start it, but tend to back off if they seem like they're serious about following through.

Thanks to all those who have shared--some really expressive thoughts here.

[renneeists]

the girl in me thinks of it.
I'm hoping someday I get enough courage meet another crossdresser and discover if I really want to,
I don't think I'd be interested in a man otherwise

[t-girlxsophie]

After my First marriage ended,and I started my journey as Sophie.I found myself thinking that I would be alone,for no woman would surely want a guy who dresses up as a female.

So once I got out of closet,I would enjoy male company as much as I could,met guys who treated me like a woman,even down to opening doors for me and treating me to gifts.I enjoyed being with men,(me always femme)and feeling so womanly in their company.And have you noticed how many straight guys (so they say:devil:) are into TVs?

Looking back maybe I was trying to fill a void in my life,or maybe I just enjoyed the feelings It gave me,That was then and now I HAVE found loving and understanding woman.And am in a good place,wont forget the past it was right for me then and Is right for so many of you out there

[Joann0830]

I enjoy the Company of a Woman Very Much and the only time that I was in the company of a male was when my CD Friend had left work late and we had made dinner arraignments for us as GIRLS Nite out and he showed up in his male attire for dinner and I told him to eat dinner as I did not feel threatened so I ate dinner with him and left the restaurant as friends and joined up with the other ladies, He later showed in as the Girlfriend that we all knew and appoligized to me. I told him when he came in to meet with the other Ladies that I would not deny him eating with me as Joann and we both laughed, Joann0830:battingeyelashes::heehee::love:

I would never have had it get anywhere but as friends eating dinner. I value Friendship:battingeyelashes::heehee:

[Ada Ant]

I have thought about being with a man while dressed and I still wonder what it would be like! The problem is I dont believe I could be attracted to a man enless he was dressed to. I love the ladies but need a lil bit more in the bedroom!!!!!

[willowgurl]

Hiya, I guess I'm the exception to the statistics, I date only guys, and have for a very long time. Willow

[Mistybtm]

Hiya, I guess I'm the exception to the statistics, I date only guys, and have for a very long time. Willow
Nothing wrong with that I may do the same thing All i have had is bad luck and a lot of heart ack with woman.:2c:

[Karinsamatha]

When fully dressed there is a small attraction to men, that is something that is a recent development, and happened as Karin has become more integrated in me mentally. I still very much love to be with a women as a man, or woman. :)
:drink:

[CDSamantha]

I would love to date a man as long as he treated me like a lady, in all ways!

[Samantha_Smile]

Dont remember if Ive posted here before.
I'd deffinately be lesbian if I were actually a girl.
No two ways about it, femininity is so much more attractive.

[thenewgirl]

i must admit i do find myself fantasizing about being intimate with a cute guy but more so a T-Girl

[Simply_Vanessa]

Ever since I had relations as a woman with a guy, let just say I haven't really thought about being with a woman since then :heehee: Oddly enough, If I am not in my fem mode, the thought of a guy with a guy kind of disgusts me. Oh, I am so confused...

[Cassandra]

I'm dating a guy right now. We've been together for 3 months, he knows that I crossdress but he likes it and so do I and we're doing great together. Everyone else doesn't know and thinks I'm a woman so it's no big deal. My boyfriend is pretty cute too so I'm not worried about anything.

[hose_n_heelz]

I would be and have been with a man. Something about being in hose and heels makes me want to please. A long night on the couch french kissing a man is a nice thought. French kissing another CD while in drag (at a club or anywhere would be fun too.)

[willowgurl]

Attracting guys is the reason I crossdress. Willow

[StayceeCD]

I used to think I'd never be interested in a man till I was out one night and got alot if positive attention from a guy. Well one thing led to another and I ended up kissing him. It was exciting and it felt good to get attention and compliments from a man. It felt so good to be treated like a lady. So yes, being with a man is something I enjoy while dressed. That being said, I don't think I could ever really have an emotional attachment to a man. I'm also not at all interested in men when not dressed.

[dawnforever]

I'm with smile... If I were a GG, I'd definately be COMPLETELY Lesbian. As a man, I don't "think" men are disgusting, I actually know. I hate watching my brethren sometimes because of the STUPID things they do in the name of masculinity.

[Soriya]

I am like a lot in this thread. I have never been attracted to men nor have I ever experimented with one, no desire but I must admit when I have been dressed in the past, I would also fantasize about it. Of course this had always confused me because as soon as I was back in 'man mode' there was nothing.

Someone said it in this thread. For some of us, we are looking like a woman, feeling like a woman, and thinking like a woman so perhaps the thoughts while dressed are coming from our female sides.

[Robyn2006]

For me, the thought of being out on a date with that perfect guy and to be treated as the woman I feel myself to be inside... Good lord, all my fantasies always end up there! Perhaps someday...

I know many here are not on this page and only enjoy the wonderment of becoming female. But for me, when I dress... I find it a completely transformational experience, bringing on all the feelings, hopes, and desires of any woman. With that last lipstick stroke, what else could be more natural???

Robyn

[SexiBobbi]

In my case, I am bi-sexual. However, I am WAY more attracted to women than men. (I eve married a woman).
I am new to dressing and one of the things I need to work on when Bobbi is in public is oogling attractive women.
That being said, I would love to be taken out and treated as a women. I couldn't get intimate because I am married, so it would be best if I didn't. Too many affairs start with dinner as friends.

[Tamara Croft]

I'm married and very attracted to women, but, would love to experience taking a submissive female role to a man.I'm sure your wife would just love that eh? :rolleyes:

[ReineD]

This thread is mind-boggling. If any GG ever wants to be a fly on the wall to learn how men think, she only needs to join cd.com and read threads like these.

Am I naive in thinking that there are far more GMs who are in a relationship that fantasize about cheating as there are GGs in similar situations? Doesn't matter if it is fantasizing about other men or women. Except a GG in a relationship with a GM cannot compete with another man. There's nothing she can do to keep her guy interested if he wants to be with another guy. :sad:

I don't know. Maybe everyone, GMs and GGs, fantasizes about others after they've been with a partner for awhile. Sex can become staid and it is certainly much easier to get that 'high' with someone new than working on the current sexual relationship. :sad:

[Presh GG]

Sadly this thread is on an open forum that anyone "Joe or Jane Public" could read and we wonder why the public thinks ill of or doesn't want to know about trans-people.
How do we justify such fantasy?

Presh GG

[ReineD]

Presh, honestly even if you went to a non-CD, men only site, I'm guessing you would find much similar thinking. Not about having sex with other men, just fantasizing about sex outside the relationship.

[sonja]

love men love women in all ways :love:

[Di]

This thread is mind-boggling. If any GG ever wants to be a fly on the wall to learn how men think, she only needs to join cd.com and read threads like these.
:sad:

Totally AGREE :doh: ever time I see another thread like this I :doh: .....the comments, the fantasizing the preoccuption just SCREAMS MEN.
Sorry just do not get the dwelling on it....but it seems like a
Mars vs. Venus: kinda thing and I relate more to a woman I guess.:o

[Sarah_GG]

Totally AGREE :doh: ever time I see another thread like this I :doh: .....the comments, the fantasizing the preoccuption just SCREAMS MEN.
Sorry just do not get the dwelling on it....but it seems like a
Mars vs. Venus: kinda thing and I relate more to a woman I guess.:o

You're so right Di. It's a MEN thing! :straightface:

But, on the positive side, I guess it's honest. At least we can see what goes on in the minds of many men and what their preoccupations are. For many newly knowing partners, the contents of this thread would confirm many a fear. But, it's had a lot of response and interest so there must be something in it?

[Sasha Anne Meadows]

I don't judge my sisters so those of whom want to be with guys are fine with me. Personally I don't find anything attractive about men. I don't even like myself as a man so I am in female mode almost all the time. I guess then if we are looking for labels I am a lesbian.

[Daintre]

I will always say that fidelity is utmost in a relationship, however, fantasy can take you to many places. Many men and women fantasize about a myriad of things at times. Is the thought of being with a man so out there? of course not. If you have made a life commitment, then stand by that. There is a huge difference between reality and fantasy, what we think is not always translated into action.

[MJ]

Sadly this thread is on an open forum that anyone "Joe or Jane Public" could read and we wonder why the public thinks ill of or doesn't want to know about trans-people.
How do we justify such fantasy?

Presh GG

We are complicated beings one box does not fit all. and how do you justify saying we are all trans ?. clearly we are not and "Joe or Jane Public" don't have the time to take an in depth look at our world, what they see on Jerry springer must be true cause it's on TV right.

fantasy is one thing and can be healthy for gg or gm but to cheat on your S.O now that's wrong. fantasy land is fine if it stays there..

Trust me from a real t-girl ..there are married men out there who hunt us down for real sex then go home to there wife's how sad is that...:straightface:

now if the person is single then hey whatever floats your boat.

me no thanks i don't care for men or woman way too much drama.

[Sophie_C]

This thread is mind-boggling. If any GG ever wants to be a fly on the wall to learn how men think, she only needs to join cd.com and read threads like these.

Am I naive in thinking that there are far more GMs who are in a relationship that fantasize about cheating as there are GGs in similar situations? Doesn't matter if it is fantasizing about other men or women. Except a GG in a relationship with a GM cannot compete with another man. There's nothing she can do to keep her guy interested if he wants to be with another guy. :sad:

I don't know. Maybe everyone, GMs and GGs, fantasizes about others after they've been with a partner for awhile. Sex can become staid and it is certainly much easier to get that 'high' with someone new than working on the current sexual relationship. :sad:

ReineD, don't feel so down in this. First off, remember that MANY people, such as myself are single here, and nothing is wrong with what is posted, in that case, at all. I think you may be focusing on the lesser amount of those who are in relationships, or worse, married, who are thinking or seriously considering cheating, which are only a handful of people in this ever-so-long thread.

Secondly, do remember, that it is in the nature of men to "spread their seed" so to speak, and even in healthy, nearly ideal relationships, the will have fantasies of being with others. And, remember, a fantasy is not a genuine interest. They're two entirely different things, with a line that should never be crossed.

And, to be fair, if men have a nature to be with many women and the handle that nature through fantasy, how can you hate them for it? They are choosing to do that instead of cheat, and most men have done that their entire lives. I mean, what is pornography, but fantasies of other people, set in a visual method? And, virtually all men look at it, which reaffirms that notion.

But, of course, it's only when they choose the fantasy over the woman next to them, when it becomes wrong, in and of itself. And, that's where the line which should never be crossed.

[zoe m]

Sexual attraction and arousal are complicated stuff... In my case, while dressed as a man I've been on a kind of date with a man and also went to some gay clubs , and I've had a few men who were after me. They were all very nice, but I didn't feel anything so it never went anywhere. Other than maybe the hope that it might be a situation where I could dress as a woman (which didn't happen). While dressed, I never used to fantasize about being with a man, it wasn't part of my original fantasies. But in the last few years I have started to occasionally fantasize about it, and it definitely does something for me. I like to think about the contrast between a masculine man and me dressed as a woman, 'cause it highlights my femininity. And I think I just like the naughtiness of it :battingeyelashes:. The thought of the actual sex with the man doesn't horrify me, I've got nothing against it, but it doesn't do much for me and it seems more like a gymnastic chore than anything :). That said, I agree with whoever was that said "don't knock it till you try it!" :)

I like to assume that most of us are bisexual and go from there. If I'm sometime in a position where I can have sex as a woman with a man, I might try it and see what happens. Why not? (if I'm single, that is). If I don't get to I won't be too let down (whereas my TV issues are not something I can forget about). There's lots of things in the world that I'm curious about. It's just not that strong for me. It's natural for people to fantasize about other people even if they're in a relationship, it's not something to be ashamed about. When I've been in relationships with women I've often fantasized about other girls, more often than any fantasies of being a woman with a man. And I'm ok with the person I'm with having fantasies also. It's a question of the force and nature of the fantasies. If they become greater than your actual love for your partner, and the joy and sexual excitement you get from the relationship, then it can become a problem. It's normal for long relationships to go stale, but it's also sad. But that's a general problem that everyone faces, not just crossdressers. And there's a lot written about that so I won't go into it. Same with cheating - it's human and it's a mistake many people have made, but it's still something you don't wanna do. That's true for TVs, TSs, gay men, straight men, lesbians, everybody. If you have an overwhelming urge (not just an occasional fantasy) to be with someone else and you're in a long-term relationship, then that's gonna be a problem, regardless of your gender or the one you're attracted to. You just have to decide what's best and try not to hurt people while also being honest to yourself and your partner, I guess.

If you're single or in an open relationship, then I say go ahead and try it, sure, why not!

[joannemarie barker]

i'm single and whether i choose a man or a woman to be with i would never cheat on anybody.

[ReineD]

ReineD, don't feel so down in this.

You bring up several very good points, Sophie, thank you. :) :hugs: And I do tend to assume that many of the CDs are married. Perhaps this is wrong.

I just want to tell everyone that my objection is not about CDs wanting to be with men. I have no bias against any sexual preference. What bothers me are the people who are in relationships and who use the fantasy as a way to remove the energy from their sexual relationship with their partners. I've been reading threads in this forum long enough to know that for most of you (according to what you post), nothing compares to the excitement you feel when you are dressed. Nothing. So it is not such a stretch to believe that the sexual fantasies you have when dressed are more gratifying to you than having real sex with your wives, and there are many posts that confirm this as well. So don't you think your wives feel this too?


But that's a general problem that everyone faces, not just crossdressers. And there's a lot written about that so I won't go into it.

That was my point earlier too. Yes, much of it has to do with the frequency and the strength of the fantasy. Occasional, passing fantasies are harmless whether someone CDs or not. But I sometimes wonder if more CDs than non-CDs' fantasies are much more powerful since the CDing is akin to an obsession (this is not a judgment, but the way I have of describing how important it is to most of you). I also get the impression that many CDs don't believe their fantasies 'count' while dressed since in this state, the wives are not being deprived of their male partners' attention. :sad:

No one knows, other than the CDer and his wife, how much the fantasies are getting in the way of their sexual relationship reaching its full potential.

But I can tell you this thread has upset more than one GG. :sad:

[Soriya]

Pondering some thoughts
Hiya everyone

First I have to say this forum has been so helpful for me in the week I have been here and it's answered so many questions for me in that short time. One of the biggest questions it seems a lot of us have are about the idea of being with a man while dressed as a woman, including myself so after reading many posts and the thread about dating guys, I have been thinking about it a lot and why that may be since I know I am not gay or Bi-sexual according to the labels that have been given to those attractions.

I am really starting to believe that these desires while dressed is very normal and actually very heterosexual for those of us that are not attracted to men while in 'man mode'. When we dress, we are presenting as a woman, feeling like a woman, and most importantly, thinking like a woman. It's as if we are placing our male side to the background and bringing our female side to the foreground. of course I am not saying we all should act on them, just thinking of why it occurs. Using the 3 main terms associated with sexuality if I got this correct...

Heterosexual: Male attracted to Female and Female attracted to Male
Bisexual: Male attracted to both Male and Female and Female attracted to both Male and Female
Homosexual: Male attracted to Male and Female attracted to Female.

Now using those descriptions, I am really starting to believe when we are thinking like a woman, it's natural to have have desires for the opposite sex since we are mentally a woman despite our physical 'plumbing'. I guess I could take it a step further say that for those of us that think about women or other CD's while dressed are bisexual but from a female perspective.

I don't know, I am really starting to think overall, that people like us are more 'complete' as individuals then most and it's the scripted society that we live in that labels us otherwise. Think about it, have we really evolved as a race? Sure we have in terms of technology and such, but under it all, we still live in a society that is 10's of thousand years old where Male is the more dominant sex. I mean, I don't know about all of you, but me being a people watcher, when I am out at a club or bar, wherever, and just watch the people around me, playing the 'game' of trying to attract the opposite sex, I think to myself I could watch the same thing on National Geographic! LOL

Just some random observations

XO

Soriya

[ReineD]

I am really starting to believe that these desires while dressed is very normal and actually very heterosexual for those of us that are not attracted to men while in 'man mode'. When we dress, we are presenting as a woman, feeling like a woman, and most importantly, thinking like a woman. It's as if we are placing our male side to the background and bringing our female side to the foreground.

... I am really starting to believe when we are thinking like a woman, it's natural to have have desires for the opposite sex since we are mentally a woman despite our physical 'plumbing'.

Hi Soriya, I'm not trying to be difficult, but that's my point exactly. So the wife is now married to only a part-time husband. This would create an imbalance in any relationship. The issue is not being attracted to a male vs. a female. It is about habitually being attracted to someone else outside the relationship. Of course, if the CD is single it is another story altogether.

[Robyn_mncd]

Put me in the Lesbian column too. Guys just don't do it for me.

[Soriya]

Hi Soriya, I'm not trying to be difficult, but that's my point exactly. So the wife is now married to only a part-time husband. This would create an imbalance in any relationship. The issue is not being attracted to a male vs. a female. It is about habitually being attracted to someone else outside the relationship. Of course, if the CD is single it is another story altogether.

Hiya Reine, your not being difficult at all IMO, I think this is a healthy discussion. I agree with you and what you are saying as I don't condone the actions of someone exploring any type of activity outside of a relationship such as even an 'emotional' affair. What I posted was more of a broad overview of possibly why the thoughts occur in the first place, more so trying to understand where they come from despite ones current relationship status. I should have clarified when I mentioned I thought it might be healthy to feel these desires while presenting as a woman but it's not healthy if it infringes into ones relationship. Excellent point about someone being a 'part-time' husband too but after going through a divorce over the last year and learning more about myself in that one year then in the previous 38, ignoring something that causes an imbalance in a relationship is not the way to go, nor does acting on them. Working through them either with your partner or with a therapist to understand them would perhaps be a better option IMO.

XO

Soriya

[zoe m]

I've been reading threads in this forum long enough to know that for most of you (according to what you post), nothing compares to the excitement you feel when you are dressed. Nothing.

I don't know about other people, but for me, there are plenty of things that excite me as much or much more than dressing as a woman. It's just that those are things that I can talk about openly, and so don't need an online forum to do it. Crossdressing does have the particular excitement of being forbidden, it's true. And also you start to feel deep down inside that it's not good or healthy to repress something that comes naturally. But that doesn't mean I value it more than other things in life.

Cheating is wrong regardless of who does it. As for fantasies, I feel like most men, including regular straight men, do fantasize with some frequency about other people. I assume it's the same for women, I could be wrong. It becomes a problem if it's about always about the same person, because then it means you are attracted to that person. And also if you no longer feel the spark and love with your partner. I wouldn't wanna be in a relationship with someone if I didn't feel happy in it.

Probably each CD in here has a slightly different sexual mix. If yours is such that it prevents you from being in a relationship with just one woman, then you probably shouldn't be in that kind of relationship (yeah, i know it's not that simple). And that's ok. I'm sure there are many here who can be in one and some who can't.

[Jenny Aurora]

Please bare with me, I am not the best in discussions but here goes :)


Hi Soriya, I'm not trying to be difficult, but that's my point exactly. So the wife is now married to only a part-time husband. This would create an imbalance in any relationship. The issue is not being attracted to a male vs. a female. It is about habitually being attracted to someone else outside the relationship. Of course, if the CD is single it is another story altogether.

Hi Reine. I would have to agree with Soriya about the part time husband part. I'm single and would never condone cheating (I hope thats the right word). But when I was with my first girlfriend, I think part of me was always emotionally unavailable to her and there was probably quite a lot missing from the relationship that would of been there if she was with a 'normal' person. It's something I am not proud of and I am really shameful/regretful that it happened, she did nothing to deserve that. At the time, I guess I only saw things one way. I guess it did not help that I did not understand much back then. What made me see this most of all was when I was in a later relationship and found that the person I was with was drifting away emotionally until I found out her heart was elsewhere. Emotionally cheating? It is such a horrible feeling to feel as if someone is not fully in the relationship, that anything is missing or that the person you are with would prefer you to be someone else, someone different. It's like a stab to the heart.

Maybe it is something that can be best seen when you experienced it yourself? It's too easy to get lost in your own little world.

I wonder though what the situation would be for a bi sexual person. If they were in a relationship with one sex, what happens to the attractions to the other side. Fantasies are one thing, but if they affect your current relationships then it stops becoming harmless.

[Jessy]

I am single myself as well, and it's been years since I had a so. Those days, I was still all the way closeted, so being a cd and having a relationship at the same time was more a problem for just myself. Still, the cd doesn't change who I am and who I love. I am heterosexual and if I am with a woman that I love, my feelings for her wouldn't be different when dressing up.

However things might become harder in a relationship when coming out. And I can understand very well that many ggs might have problems with cd. Like said before, they could feel like they only have a parttime husband. But that's all a matter how she feels about the whole cd subject, how far we feel like we need to go with our cd around her, and what sacrifices we are willing to make...

[zoe m]

But I sometimes wonder if more CDs than non-CDs' fantasies are much more powerful since the CDing is akin to an obsession (this is not a judgment, but the way I have of describing how important it is to most of you).

I wouldn't say it's really an obsesion for me - it's just one more thing, but it's something I have to really give some thought to because it's, well, a little out there :) and not really accepted by other people. It can sometims be tricky to figure out. But I think it's more likely to become an obsession if I try to suppress it or pretend it's not there. I'd rather live with it and not let it take over my life. For me it's less about the act of doing it than about knowing that I do like to do it and feeling ok about that.

Reine, I think you're bringing up good points for people to think about. I don't think a relationship with a CD is for everybody. Hopefully forums like these and greater tolerance in general will help CDs to come out to their partners earlier on in a relationship so they can figure it all out sooner.

In the end, I think for me some of it too is that since the whole CD thing is much less open in society than the gay community, I sometimes wanna think I'm bisexual so that I can be part of a community and not feel like a weirdo (though finding this site has been great!:)). The fantasies maybe come from that. But if I'm honest about it, there's really very little that pulls me towards men. I guess it's different for each CD or TV.

I think threads like these attract a lot of attention on this site because everyone assumes we're gay and so we're spend a lot of time trying to figure out if we are or not.

Maya

[Fab Karen]

And I do tend to assume that many of the CDs are married. Perhaps this is wrong.
Unless they say they're married, or hint at it, then don't assume they are.

I just want to tell everyone that my objection is not about CDs wanting to be with men. I have no bias against any sexual preference. What bothers me are the people who are in relationships and who use the fantasy as a way to remove the energy from their sexual relationship with their partners.
IF they're doing that, is it conscious? Regardless, they need to get honest with themselves and think about what their marriage means.

But I sometimes wonder if more CDs than non-CDs' fantasies are much more powerful since the CDing is akin to an obsession (this is not a judgment, but the way I have of describing how important it is to most of you). I also get the impression that many CDs don't believe their fantasies 'count' while dressed since in this state, the wives are not being deprived of their male partners' attention. :sad:
Throw out "many." Some are married, and SOME of those people may be selfish & deluding themselves so they can have their cake & eat it too ( & possibly remain in denial of their sexuality ). It isn't because they are CD's.

But I can tell you this thread has upset more than one GG. :sad:
Not all of us ( or even possibly "many" ) are married, and even fewer of those who are married are selfish people who'd use ANY excuse to cheat. I repeat, it isn't because they are CD's.

[kellycan27]

I can see where threads like this could be unnerving for gg's and the SO's of cders. Especially with all of the hiding deceitfulness that gets mentioned in a lot of the treads. How does the wife of SO of a cder separate fact from fantasy? These poor ladies are sitting here reading posts from their loved ones and people like their loved ones who are openly admitting to either wanting to experience sex with someone else, or fantasizing about it. Whether they follow through or not, it still plants the seeds of doubt. I am sure it may even leave them wondering about the future of their relationship. Couple that with all the threads regarding cder's who suddenly decide that they want to transition. Where does tis leave the wife or SO.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with expression,just that these type threads can lead to a lot of insecurity for loved ones.

[JulieK1980]

You bring up several very good points, Sophie, thank you. :) :hugs: And I do tend to assume that many of the CDs are married. Perhaps this is wrong.

I just want to tell everyone that my objection is not about CDs wanting to be with men. I have no bias against any sexual preference. What bothers me are the people who are in relationships and who use the fantasy as a way to remove the energy from their sexual relationship with their partners. I've been reading threads in this forum long enough to know that for most of you (according to what you post), nothing compares to the excitement you feel when you are dressed. Nothing. So it is not such a stretch to believe that the sexual fantasies you have when dressed are more gratifying to you than having real sex with your wives, and there are many posts that confirm this as well. So don't you think your wives feel this too?



That was my point earlier too. Yes, much of it has to do with the frequency and the strength of the fantasy. Occasional, passing fantasies are harmless whether someone CDs or not. But I sometimes wonder if more CDs than non-CDs' fantasies are much more powerful since the CDing is akin to an obsession (this is not a judgment, but the way I have of describing how important it is to most of you). I also get the impression that many CDs don't believe their fantasies 'count' while dressed since in this state, the wives are not being deprived of their male partners' attention. :sad:

No one knows, other than the CDer and his wife, how much the fantasies are getting in the way of their sexual relationship reaching its full potential.

But I can tell you this thread has upset more than one GG. :sad:

There are also a few of us that have "alternative" relationships with our spouses (that I won't go into detail on an open forum) that are consensual, and enjoyable by both of us.

That said, I don't think cheating in the sense of hiding it from your partner is good either. But I also think quite a few women fantasize about extramarital affairs as well, its not just a male thought process. :2c:

[kellycan27]

But I also think quite a few women fantasize about extramarital affairs as well, its not just a male thought process. :2c:

Maybe so, but how many of them go broadcasting it in front of their SO's and friends? or the SO's of their friends. I think that a lot of you miss the point. While a lot of you want to reassure your SO's that your cding is nothing more than that, you post how you fantasize or think about being with another man. How many of you that are in a committed relationship would want your SO to read what you write about it? What do you think that their reaction would be if they did read about it? How do you think that such admissions affect the supportive gg's who are a part of this group and trying to understand what their cross dressing SO is all about?

[julia ann]

I have fantasized about men while dressed and on one occasion, after maybe one to many, I said good bye to very nice gentlemen I had been speaking with all evening at a TG bar, not real sure where it came from but as I was leaving it seemed to come very natural to reach over a kiss him good night. Lasted much longer than I had anticipated and was a nice top off to being treated like a lady all evening. However to go further , for now, is out of the qyestion as I am currently married, a simple kiss was one thing but more would be to far at this time.

[JulieK1980]

Maybe so, but how many of them go broadcasting it in front of their SO's and friends? or the SO's of their friends. I think that a lot of you miss the point. While a lot of you want to reassure your SO's that your cding is nothing more than that, you post how you fantasize or think about being with another man. How many of you that are in a committed relationship would want your SO to read what you write about it? What do you think that their reaction would be if they did read about it? How do you think that such admissions affect the supportive gg's who are a part of this group and trying to understand what their cross dressing SO is all about?

I still say that's overly generalized. I'm hard-pressed to believe I'm the only one here that has a fully supportive wife AND still is completely open and honest with her. While I agree there are some that do not think of there spouse in the matter, or don't care to tell there SO about their fantasies or actions, I don't buy that its only men doing this, and its probably an equal statistic of women behaving in the same manner. Its more of a sad state for People in general vs. men or Women or CD'ers or Non-CD'ers.

What I'm trying to get across is that we don't necessarily have enough information to judge the actions or posts of others on here, as we are only getting the information they give. We don't know necessarily if there SO is aware or not, or what is acceptable in there relationship, as all relationships are different. If they are in fact "cheating" within the confines of there own relationship, then yes its bad, but for all we know they have a SO who is ok with what they do.

[ReineD]

But when I was with my first girlfriend, I think part of me was always emotionally unavailable to her and there was probably quite a lot missing from the relationship ... At the time, I guess I only saw things one way.
Maybe this happened because you didn't love her and she wasn't the one for you? Or do you mean the situation developed because you were wrapped up in femme fantasies and your ex gf sorta fell by the wayside? Either way, thanks for your honesty. :hugs:


It is such a horrible feeling to feel as if someone is not fully in the relationship, that anything is missing or that the person you are with would prefer you to be someone else, someone different. It's like a stab to the heart.

Maybe it is something that can be best seen when you experienced it yourself? It's too easy to get lost in your own little world.
I agree. You know, I've talked to a lot of people here and I've seen many threads where it appears as if partners (either the GG or CD) end up putting blinders on and settling for crumbs, and the intimacy (sexual intimacy is a huge part of it) slowly erodes to the point where they become two room mates who share a roof. :sad:

Like said before, they could feel like they only have a parttime husband. But that's all a matter how she feels about the whole cd subject, how far we feel like we need to go with our cd around her, and what sacrifices we are willing to make...
Although I agree that many GGs don't want to have anything to do with the CDing which makes it difficult for the CD, this particular thread is more about sexual desires. This thread has nearly 19,000 hits and more than 300 responses, well over half of which disclose fantasies about being with men (but only while dressed .. so it is assumed the responder is a hetero CD, perhaps or likely (?) in a relationship with a GG). Believe me, GGs do feel the disconnect.


Not all of us ( or even possibly "many" ) are married, and even fewer of those who are married are selfish people who'd use ANY excuse to cheat. I repeat, it isn't because they are CD's.

That's true! But the statistics or the 'buzz' (whether it is accurate or not, I don't know, since it is difficult to measure) is that most CDers are married, heterosexual men. Yet here is a sizable thread where a majority fantasize about being sexual as a woman with a man. This is something that a wife or a potential gf cannot compete with, no matter how sexually willing she is to be with her partner. Granted, non-CDers fantasize about having sex with women outside their relationships too, maybe this is your point. Someone else mentioned this too. But I should think it wouldn't be such a stretch for a non-CD to transfer a fantasy about some hot babe to his partner when they are making love, since the object of the fantasy and the person being made love to is the same gender. It stands to reason that it would be harder to enjoy a GG partner as much if the sexual desire was to be as a woman who wants to be with a man.

Karen, again I'm not wanting to be difficult, just pointing out a major reason why GGs have an issue with the CDing. This would even affect a bi GG, since she also would not measure up if her CDing husband wanted to be with a guy. OK, so the disclaimer is that CDs say they only feel this way when they are in femme mode, not guy mode, therefore the wife is not affected. But how many CDs have said they feel flat sexually in drab?



I am not saying that there is anything wrong with expression,just that these type threads can lead to a lot of insecurity for loved ones.

Bingo!

But, still I think it is important to discuss this. I would hate to see a thread like this go underground to the GM forum simply out of a desire to 'spare' the GGs from the truth, or even from the fantasies.

I took the time to post so many comments in this thread in order to try to point out to whoever might be interested why perhaps some wives (or exes) do not or did not like the CDing. It can be more than a mere distaste for a husband who occasionally wishes to be feminine. In other words, it is more than just about the clothes. GGs do feel the disconnect when there is one. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but there does seem to be a mindset here that whatever the wife doesn't know won't hurt her, especially when it comes to fantasies or sexual desires.

My point in going on about this (and I apologize to those who feel I am long-winded), is to encourage the CDs who have these fantasies to come clean with their wives, or to work towards bridging a gap if there is one, and to try to incorporate the fantasies in the marriage, even if it means becoming a little more flexible. :)


I don't buy that its only men doing this, and its probably an equal statistic of women behaving in the same manner.
Jody, I agree and I did mention the possibility in my post on page 12. But I would be willing to bet, if there was such a similar in FAB, that most GGs would much rather make love to their husbands than anyone else.

I do admire the open, alternative relationship you have with your wife. But I do not think this is the norm.

[JulieK1980]

Reine, I suspect your probably right, and I think in retrospect a lot of the females that I know usually end up in extramarital affairs because of the disconnect in their marriage. They don't get the emotional needs at home and go elsewhere. Whereas most men seem to be after the sexual gratification. Both situations are bad, but its definitely a relatively important distinction.

The "it won't hurt her if she doesn't find out" philosophy, is absolutely horrible, and destroys marriages, and people's sanity.

It also seems a similar instance to so many CDers who hide the CDing from their SO justifying it as not hurting anyone.

[KayC]

This isn't addressed to those who are single, but to those who have led their partner to believe that they were in a faithful and committed relationship.
As someone who was cheated on in my now former marriage, I can assure you that what one doesn't know can and does hurt them! I became physically ill when my husband's affair started, and it continued for months...I think subconsciously we know something is wrong and the stress affects our bodies. The pain and confusion associated with someone going outside the marriage is unbearable.
Further, when we have ASKED you if you ever thought of being with a guy and you have answered "no", it is all the more hurtful to learn that you actually fantasize about being with a guy. That is the one thing we can't be and shouldn't have to compete with. So many of you have stated how you wish you had a supportive GG...well, many of you do...but how supportive of a husband are you being when you fantasize about being with someone else?
To the single ones out there that are completely unattached, you're free to pursue whatever you want...to the rest, you've already made an obligation and if you can't live up to it, NOW is the time to tell your partner.

[Sheila]

When we have ASKED you if you ever thought of being with a guy and you have answered "no", it is all the more hurtful to learn that you actually fantasize about being with a guy. That is the one thing we can't be and shouldn't have to compete with. So many of you have stated how you wish you had a supportive GG...well, many of you do...but how supportive of a husband are you being when you fantasize about being with someone else?
To the single ones out there that are completely unattached, you're free to pursue whatever you want...to the rest, you've already made an obligation and if you can't live up to it, NOW is the time to tell your partner.

Well said KC ............ I will add however that when you answered no to us in the beginning, you may well have been being honest then, but when your interest/fantasy began to become real then also was another time you should have told us ........

For those who are cheating on their partners, I hope to hell you get caught and remember a recent revelation by one of your own had to come here and admit to having lied to you guys after his wife found out about his cding activities by coming here, and another recent thread where the son printed and gave to mum what dad had been saying ............ the next time it might be you and she might find out that you have cheated/want to cheat on your relationship, if it is I for one will give you no sympathy .......

and by the way ....... cheating while you are dressed is still cheating ......... you may change clothes but you do not change sex, you do not change your responsibilities or obligations to those who love you and whom you claim to love as well ........... you are the same person at core whatever your dress mode

If ever I came here and read debs was saying things that as Reine D said
remove the energy from [-]their[/-] our sexual relationship with [-]their partners[/-] me & I will also include emotion energy, then we would be no more, I will not condone cheating in RL and if her fantasy were ever to remove those from our relationship over a period of time then it would be time for her to go see if she could make her fantasy a reality without me .............. I deserve so much better than that

[MizT]

Nope...no men....

[Fab Karen]

"OK, so the disclaimer is that CDs say they only feel this way when they are in femme mode, not guy mode, therefore the wife is not affected. But how many CDs have said they feel flat sexually in drab?"
Some say that, not the majority. And of the ones who are married, seems to be a minority who as I said are the types who'd be finding an excuse to cheat regardless of being a CD. And/or they've got issues with their sexuality, and pretend they're Sybil when they're not, using it as an excuse to have their cake & eat it too.

[Sheila]

Some say that, not the majority. And of the ones who are married, seems to be a minority who as I said are the types who'd be finding an excuse to cheat regardless of being a CD. And/or they've got issues with their sexuality, and pretend they're Sybil when they're not, using it as an excuse to have their cake & eat it too.

But even if it is not the majority and only some .......... it is still said & at the end of the day, even if it is just some GG's saying it, it is still affecting relationships with some of their partners, (sometimes it is not the GG who is saying it that it is coming from, but rather they may be speaking on behalf of other GG's whom they know are feeling/have felt like this in the past ... I have done that on several occasions in several threads and am sure I will again in the future ) & it is with their CDing partners that they are saying it about which it is why it is being said in this thread (and other ones) on this forum :sad:............. if it was (and I am sure it will be said on train forums, stamp collecting forums, car forums etc etc about the activities their partners do affecting their relationship) then they would/will be saying it there :straightface:

Cheating is cheating and removing oneself for whatever reason, mentally emotionally or physically from your partner is going to cause ill feeling and perhaps eventually the end of your relationship ......... unless of course both parties are happy with the status quo .......... I wouldn't be but then that is me :straightface:

[Soriya]

I think most in here don't condone cheating but as you say Shelia, there are all sorts of things that lead to people straying in their relationship, and I hope that most would agree that no reason is a good reason. Of course there are some that just don't care, but god I hope most do.

Bottom line, in this thread, crossdressing can be used as that avenue and some have or are thinking about it. IMO, weather it's CD'ing or something else someone uses as an excuse, they should look deeper and ask themselves what is really wrong in their relationship as an excuse is just that, and excuse, not the reason.

[ReineD]

Some say that, not the majority.

I can't dispute whether most, many, or a few of the CDs who posted in this thread are married (or even if they are CD vs. TS), since not all the CDs who said they were interested in men disclosed their marital status or their gender ID. You are correct, only a few people did say they are married. This does not mean that the rest aren't or weren't.

I was using the premise that the majority of CDs are heterosexual men who are or have been married. This is admittedly Tri-Ess' viewpoint (http://www.tri-ess.org/cd01.html) (paragraph 5), and up til now I assumed that Tri-Ess had a pretty good handle on it. But, maybe they don't.

Granted, even if most of the CDs who posted in this thread (who did not disclose their marital status) are now divorced and they are free to do as they please, my points still apply. If during their marriages the CDing led them to desire men as women, chances are their wives felt this at some level and this was a greater factor in the divorce than a mere dislike of the husband wearing feminine clothing; this, and the CDer's decreasing (or decreased) interest in his wife. I do not condemn people for their sexual preferences or for the choices they make. I was merely pointing out that sexual fantasies especially of this nature do more harm to a relationship with a GG than perhaps CDers care to believe.

I was only trying to present my viewpoint as a GG, for the CDs whose marriages have become distant (or the single CDs who find it difficult maintaining a relationship with a GG) and who wish to turn things around for themselves.

[KayC]

Good take, Reine!

[Jacqueline Vasquez]

I have been with men before, but never dressed. My fantasy is to go out on a date with a man en femme, be treated like a lady, and taken back to his place and he has his way with me. I do prefer women over men, but hot sexy men get me going!! especially when they are well endowed! heehee :) <sizequeen>

[Mistybtm]

Jacqueline

Same for me could not have said it any better:battingeyelashes:

[Satrana]

I have deliberately ignored this thread up to now because fantasies are such a minefield to discuss. Some people keep fantasies and reality apart, others seek to merge them. This is an individual thing and there is no way to know where someone else stands on their fantasy-reality take. What I do know is if you are insecure about the issue another person's fantasy revolves around then for sure you will think the worst and assume that the person will desire to make their fantasy reality.

Ergo why some people think that because this thread has so many hits that it must say something profound about CDs.

I came here just out of curiosity to see how many pages this thread has stretched to. Now I see that some GGs are commenting on the damage this can do but as I read their comments I have spotted what I believe are 2 erroneous assumptions.


If during their marriages the CDing led them to desire men as women, chances are their wives felt this at some level and this was a greater factor in the divorce than a mere dislike of the husband wearing feminine clothing; this, and the CDer's decreasing (or decreased) interest in his wife.

I find this analysis misses the target because of the assumption that CDs will suddenly stumble upon the fantasy during the marriage and this may lead to decreased sexual relations. In reality all CDs fantasize about this idea because it is the ultimate in female role playing. And these thoughts have occupied the minds of CDs since their early adulthood when they became sexually aware/active.

Long before a CD marries the fantasy is already in place. It is hard then to argue that this is a contributing factor to a relationship breakup when it existed at the very start when presumably the sexual attraction was strong. Obviously this excludes situations where the CD is actively making his fantasies reality.

So the profound explanation of this thread is CDs do fantasize about sex with men as a woman and always have since their youth.

In all relationships men and women end up taking each other for granted. Men and women cheat on each other equally. And the idea that women do it for love and affection and men for sex is a myth. Surveys show tons of women do it for the sex and tons of men do it for the love and affection. There is no gender divide on the reasons behind cheating. I believe a lot is being read into normal situation of people growing apart which would have occurred anyway.

If there is a CD contribution to sexual intimacy problems it is that the fantasy is always stronger and more attractive than reality. So as sexual relations decline as they inevitably do in a relationship, the fantasy becomes increasingly more attractive in comparison and the CD's sexual energy is diverted into the role playing. And unlike most men who will struggle to enact their fantasy with a young beautiful woman, a CD is only a wardrobe away from jumping down the rabbit hole. When fantasy role playing is easily and routinely accessible then the draw becomes even more powerful.

If I were a GG my insecurity would be more focused on how my CD partner relates to his dressing habits. The more fantastic and fanciful the dressing, the more it is strictly compartmentalized, the more the CD will be drawn into his fantasy world and will become detached with the real world and his personal responsibilities.

The second point I wish to contest is the notion that it is unfair-impossible for GGs to compete against a CD fantasy of having sex with men. Again this to me says more about the insecurity of the partner than the issue itself.

How does a woman compete against any fantasy of any man? Is she going to have extensive plastic surgery and make her sexually submissive so she can compete with the 18 year old model in the man's mind? Truth is no-one can compete against another person's fantasy. Reality sucks compared to a fantasy so it really does not matter what the subject matter is, it does not affect the outcome.


the fantasizing the preoccuption just SCREAMS MEN.
Sorry just do not get the dwelling on it....but it seems like a
Mars vs. Venus: kinda thing and I relate more to a woman I guess.
Sorry that is nonsense. There is a huge market in female fantasy. 55% of all books sold are romance novels with billions of sales every year. From Wikipedia -

A survey of 600 regular romance readers "found that they mirror the general population in age, education, and marital and socioeconomic status." Over half of the women had at least some college education, and 40% were employed full-time. 60% of the women surveyed read at least one romance every two days. The heart of the U.S. romance novel readership is women aged 31–49 who are currently in a romantic relationship..

Seems many women are preoccupied with fantasies too.

[kellycan27]

I still say some of you are missing the point. How does one expcet a gg not to be insecure at times when their SO or people who engage in the same type of activity are talking about having sexual relations with another? How is a gg supposed to separate fact from fantasy? How many gg's wonder where this thing is leading and what is in their future? Look at all the threads about lies, secrecy and hiding, and deciet. Look at the threads where a cder suddenly decides that he is in fact a TS. How could all of these thing not have an impact?
No one is attacking cder's for having fantasys, or even discussing them. her point was more along the lines of reading about them and wondering if in fact there could be a possibility of someone carrying them out.
How many of you who have these fantasys would be willing to share them with their SO, or be comfortable with their SO reading about them? If you answer no you would not be comfortable.. Why not?
Blaming the insecurity on the gg, IMHO is a cop out.

[Sheila]

How many of you who have these fantasys would be willing to share them with their SO, or be comfortable with their SO reading about them? If you answer no you would not be comfortable.. Why not?
Blaming the insecurity on the gg, IMHO is a cop out.

Thank you Kelly, very well said

[Satrana]

I still say some of you are missing the point. How does one expcet a gg not to be insecure at times when their SO or people who engage in the same type of activity are talking about having sexual relations with another? How is a gg supposed to separate fact from fantasy?........ Blaming the insecurity on the gg, IMHO is a cop out.

The cop-out is to suggest that GGs have these doubts because of threads like this. The truth is that these doubts have been in place since the moment the GG learned of her partner's habit. Every GG automatically asks at the moment of revelation whether the CD is gay and if he intends to change sex. These are universal questions because this is what society believes drives crossdressing. Society does not believe these things because everyone comes here and reads threads like this. This is the historic ignorance and prejudice that drives CDs into the closet in the first place.

These doubts about sexuality and transsexualism always remain nagging at the back of every GG's mind that maybe one day in the future things will change and her partner will want to go full time or will become attracted to men. The fear never fully goes away. So of course these threads will only convince some GGs that their fears are justified.

This however is very unfair on CDs. You can find examples of every type of imaginable behavior, does that mean our partners should fear that we may do a million different things that would hurt her? Does generalizing about these matters mean you should stop seeing your partner as an individual and convict your partner as guilty without charge?

See its simple. You either trust your partner or you don't. There is no middle ground, it is either one or the other. If you have no evidence that your partner is cheating then you have wronged them in a major way. A relationship is worthless without trust and to destroy it based upon insecurities is a terrible thing.

By all means go look for evidence to support your insecurities in other people's fantasies and behavior. How does this help your relationship with your partner?

[mklinden2010]

I've ignored this topic for a long time because I already think that the major undercurrent of ALL crossdressing activity is or in time will be related to homosexual behavior. I'm fine with that, but I tire of hearing it debated as if it weren't the case.

Most women understand this "man on man" issue instinctively: "You're either going to do it with another man, or, you're going to be doing it with yourself - a man. Either way, this may be more or less than I thought I was getting into/already into."

It's a shame, really, that the OP didn't just call this, "Tell me about your gay life - the one in your head." Having had 19,000 views of the topic as it is labeled, is enough, I think, to make the point that most viewers of this site aren't here for fashion tips....

[ReineD]

What I do know is if you are insecure about the issue another person's fantasy revolves around then for sure you will think the worst and assume that the person will desire to make their fantasy reality.
It is not about feeling insecure about a partner's fantasies, but rather feeling insecure from within the relationship. Period. If a CDer should taylor his fantasies to involve his SO, there would be no cause for the insecurity. It is the remoteness that is hurtful. Jenny Aurora's post #294 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2101711&postcount=294) beautifully describes the situation when she writes, "I think part of me was always emotionally unavailable to her [the gf] and there was probably quite a lot missing from the relationship that would of been there"



I find this analysis misses the target because of the assumption that CDs will suddenly stumble upon the fantasy during the marriage and this may lead to decreased sexual relations.

The sexual relations do decrease when, as you mention below, the fantasies become stronger and more attractive than the reality of having sex with the wife. The wife feels the increasing distance, and this causes her to retreat as well. It is a turnoff for a GG to feel that her husband is just going through the motions.


Long before a CD marries the fantasy is already in place. It is hard then to argue that this is a contributing factor to a relationship breakup when it existed at the very start when presumably the sexual attraction was strong.

So the profound explanation of this thread is CDs do fantasize about sex with men as a woman and always have since their youth.
Then these CDs are not fully disclosing themselves to their GG partners when they initially say the CDing is only about the clothes or getting in touch with their feminine feelings (which a GG assumes is more about feelings of nurturing and caring, not a woman's sexual desire to be with a man). It is the non-disclosure and the erosion in trust that leads to insecurities. To blame the insecurities on the GG is not fair.


In all relationships men and women end up taking each other for granted. Men and women cheat on each other equally. And the idea that women do it for love and affection and men for sex is a myth. Surveys show tons of women do it for the sex and tons of men do it for the love and affection. There is no gender divide on the reasons behind cheating. I believe a lot is being read into normal situation of people growing apart which would have occurred anyway.
Yes, it is difficult to keep a relationship exciting and alive over time, even without the CDing. You can then well imagine why, if the CDer unapologetically places increasing importance on the CDing and the fantasies involved with it, it makes it even more difficult for marriages to thrive.


So as sexual relations decline as they inevitably do in a relationship, the fantasy becomes increasingly more attractive in comparison and the CD's sexual energy is diverted into the role playing. And unlike most men who will struggle to enact their fantasy with a young beautiful woman, a CD is only a wardrobe away from jumping down the rabbit hole. When fantasy role playing is easily and routinely accessible then the draw becomes even more powerful.
This is precisely why non-accepting GGs do not like the CDing. The dressing and the fantasies becomes the preferred activity above all else and as you say, "the CD's sexual energy is diverted into the role playing". The husband is not as motivated to work on their sexual issues since he has another outlet, and the GG feels this at a very deep level. This is when she realizes that the CDing is a lot more than just about the clothes.


How does a woman compete against any fantasy of any man? Is she going to have extensive plastic surgery and make her sexually submissive so she can compete with the 18 year old model in the man's mind?
No, but she can emphasize her own sexuality and it is not such a stretch for the husband to meld both, the fantasy about a young hottie and the physical and emotional pleasure he has from making love to his wive, since both the hottie and the wife have the same body parts and they share the same gender role, and the husband does love his wife. In this case, the husband would not be turned off because the wife is the wrong gender.



Truth is no-one can compete against another person's fantasy. Reality sucks compared to a fantasy so it really does not matter what the subject matter is, it does not affect the outcome.
I couldn't disagree more. In emotionally intimate relationships, people incorporate their fantasies together in their love making, and more importantly, their fantasies mesh rather than compete. As an non-gendered example, even in a BDSM relationship it takes a top and a bottom who each find gratification in their roles for the sparks to fly.



Seems many women are preoccupied with fantasies too.
This might be because they are not getting much action from their husbands or, in a marriage with a CD that is still sexually active, the love making has become more a dutiful chore since as you said, it does not compare with the fantasy of being a woman with a man. Or, the love making has become all about the husband having his needs met as a woman and the wife feels like an accessory.



These doubts about sexuality and transsexualism always remain nagging at the back of every GG's mind that maybe one day in the future things will change and her partner will want to go full time or will become attracted to men. The fear never fully goes away. So of course these threads will only convince some GGs that their fears are justified.

Precisely. Especially, as you've already noted, when the CDer increasingly becomes engaged in her fantasies of being a woman with a man. Do you not believe this to be the beginning of late onset transexualism? I am coming to the conclusion that a TS does not need to feel she needs SRS in order to be a TS. Not in this definition.



Does generalizing about these matters mean you should stop seeing your partner as an individual and convict your partner as guilty without charge?
Since I am the GG who has predominately posted in the thread, I will take your remark as being addressed to me. And no, I am not convicting anyone, least of all my partner. :Angry3: My motive as I've stated all along was to bring a GG's POV to the situation in explaining that the emotional distance caused by the fantasies associated with the CDing do cause more harm to the relationship than just the clothes, or as I've read some CDs post in this forum, the notion that their wives do not like their men to be nurturing. Which is nonsense.



See its simple. You either trust your partner or you don't.

There is no middle ground, it is either one or the other. If you have no evidence that your partner is cheating then you have wronged them in a major way. A relationship is worthless without trust and to destroy it based upon insecurities is a terrible thing.
This is not about trust. :Angry3: I am sure the wives whose husbands are remote from them sexually but are otherwise in the home physically know that their husbands have not had sex with others. It is all about the disconnect.



By all means go look for evidence to support your insecurities in other people's fantasies and behavior. How does this help your relationship with your partner?
I have not posted in this thread to address any issues or insecurities in my relationship with my SO. :Angry3: I'm posting here because I repeatedly read posts from CDs who decry their non accepting wives. I am merely pointing out they cannot expect their wives to feel cherished in the relationships if the CDers habitually engage in fantasies about others, and when, as you say, these fantasies become stronger and more exciting over time than the reality of being with their wives.

This point is most important:
If any husband, CD or non-CD should genuinely want his wife above all others and this shines through in his daily attitudes and in bed, I guarantee you his wife will follow him to the ends of the earth. But how can he do this when he is so busy wanting the same thing that she does? There is a conflict here and the wife feels this at her core.

[KayC]

OMG, Reine, you are indeed an extremely patient, tolerant person to even bother taking the time to so carefully address this response! I don't see any back up information in Satrana's post and it is IMHO, extremely errant. I don't have the time of day to go any further with this. Some people can be argumentative pot-stirrers who aren't interested in learning or applying anything...I'm outtahere, done with this!

[Sheila]

I don't have the time of day to go any further with this. Some people can be argumentative pot-stirrers who aren't interested in learning or applying anything...I'm outtahere, done with this!

You know that is sad KayC .......... and exactly what some of them want ..... GG's not to participate unless we are yelling "YOU GO GIRL GO" , no matter what others say GG's or CDER's if it does not agree with what they want to believe then it will be ignored or they will attempted to repudiate with a load of :BS: ........... fortunately there are some who do listen on both sides of the gender spectrum and not only listen, actually use it to make their own relationships better, for some though sadly it is "My way or Highway" :sad:

[Leigh58]

I agree, Reine, you are incredibily patient!!

[ReineD]

I just want to say that I respect Satrana very much. Her insight has helped me to understand many issues in the past. It looks as if we disagree on this one though, because the debate for me is not about what motivates or doesn't motivate someone to CD, but rather how the behaviors (when present) do affect the GGs.

The whole point for me in threads like these is to try to learn something, or in this case try to explain how GGs feel who are in these situations, in order to help bridge any gaps if at all possible. I agree with Sheila ... maybe one or two people will find this thread will help them improve their relationships.

Thanks for your vote of confidence though. :hugs:

[Nadia-Maria]

I found Satrana's ideas on the subject being way too shematic and abrupt and I praise very much what Reine wrote as a response. I believe she helped us to deeper understand the matter and the wife's point of view.
Thanks, Reine, for your dedication !

[JulieK1980]

I just want to say that I respect Satrana very much. Her insight has helped me to understand many issues in the past. It looks as if we disagree on this one though, because the debate for me is not about what motivates or doesn't motivate someone to CD, but rather how the behaviors (when present) do affect the GGs.

The whole point for me in threads like these is to try to learn something, or in this case try to explain how GGs feel who are in these situations, in order to help bridge any gaps if at all possible. I agree with Sheila ... maybe one or two people will find this thread will help them improve their relationships.

Thanks for your vote of confidence though. :hugs:

I have very much enjoyed reading this debate from both sides. I've learned a few things myself in this thread....

[sonja]

(my writing an typing skills suck just bare with me :P)
ok here's the deal for one if u dont tell the one you love everything there are to know about you (cding,or anything for that matter) then there no way your in love with that person dont give me that bullcrap i cant tell no one about this!! i was in closet more than anyone in the world but the day i woke up an knew my wife was my soulmate an i was going to ask her to spend her life with me i knew it was time to tell her about my wants to dress like a woman an being bi.so the night it all happen i just came clean told her how i wanted to dress an being bi ( i was waiting on her to say get out hehe :)) but she sat back an told me she loved me like no other an she could deal with me dressing an she told me she was bi but she did say that being bi was scary to her but she knew i loved her to the core an i would never cheat on my wife for the fact that i do love her like no other.that was 21 years ago. she knows everything about me an the same for me with her were best friends lovers she my everything an she knows it cause i make sure she knows it thats our job as husbands!my point is no matter what he or she does if there are not true love then yes most gg are not going to deal with cding or any other thing that goes wrong cause there just no love there
an same for men if there not true love there he&she will go else were to find it thats just the facts of life. no one can be happy with someone thats not there true love.
so to everyone that thinks cding or dreaming about guys while enfem is the reason there so is leaving there so wrong thats just a way to get out of something they did not want anyway thats just my point of view :love: sorry for the poor grammer the laptop is about dead doing this really fast hehe will say more when i get home :)

[Fab Karen]

I was using the premise that the majority of CDs are heterosexual men who are or have been married. This is admittedly Tri-Ess' viewpoint (http://www.tri-ess.org/cd01.html) (paragraph 5), and up til now I assumed that Tri-Ess had a pretty good handle on it. But, maybe they don't.

Remember what I said about assuming? Tri-Ess is an organization for hetero CD's. Their ideas about CD's in general are not to be taken as gospel about all of us. Rather than making blanket statements which help foster misunderstanding, address your comments to married CD's or in relationship with GG's who are having such issues. Just like GG's, just like black people, just like any group you can name, we are not all alike. No-one said not to talk about it- just don't talk like it is true of all of us.

[ReineD]

address your comments to married CD's or in relationship with GG's who are having such issues.

I thought I had.



Their [Tri-Ess] ideas about CD's in general are not to be taken as gospel about all of us.

As to Tri-Ess, I can only get my information from groups that are reputable. Perhaps I should join the meetup sites and find out how many of those CDs are or have been in relationships with GGs? If you can find some studies that show that the majority of CDs are homosexual, then please post the resources here.

Karen, I'm not the enemy and I'm sorry you're taking it this way. Perhaps you'd rather the GGs not come here and contribute their POV at all.

[Jacqueline Vasquez]

Jacqueline

Same for me could not have said it any better:battingeyelashes:

mmmmmmhmmmmmm girlfriend!

[CindyT]

I get the urges but could probably never bring myself to do it, unless it was in a perfect situation. However, I do dream of being the submissive one in a lesbian relationship...
On the other hand, wouldn't it be the ultimate fantasy to actually fullfill a male while dressed??? HMmm tough call. For me I guess it will always be just a fantasy...

[Satrana]

It is not about feeling insecure about a partner's fantasies, but rather feeling insecure from within the relationship. Period. If a CDer should taylor his fantasies to involve his SO, there would be no cause for the insecurity. It is the remoteness that is hurtful. Indeed if the GG wants to share in the fantasy then I can agree. But what %age of relationships are we talking about here? Most women don't want to even see their partner dressed or specifically state that they want it kept out of the bedroom.
So to be relevant this situation requires

the secret to be out
the GG to be 100% accepting
the GG wanting to be included in this sex role situation
the CD wanting to share a private fantasy and have it enacted by his wife

So we are talking about a very small minority of relationships in which a happy solution is possible. Now I am one of those lucky ones who qualifies on all the above points so I am not arguing this from a defensive position. I quite agree this is the way to go but I don't see a good solution in other relationships which are not open, accepting and accommodating. How can you tailor your fantasies? they are not conscious deliberate thoughts - some things just appeal to you. It is too individualistic a process to say if it can be tailored or not.

Remember that this is just one of many fantasies in a CD's head. To pinpoint this and state that this is a major reason for loss of sexual appetite is a stretch.

I do understand why this fantasy would be very disturbing to GGs and why it would become a lightning rod on sexual issues but I think it is largely a red herring. Reine you already pinpointed the real issue behind this - namely CDs fantasies are particularity powerful and compulsive. The internal looped feedback of autogynephilia intensifies the imagery and these thoughts can displace the sexual attraction to the wife especially in longer term relationships. This is why I have repeatedly stated over the years that the fantasy based crossdressing that most CDS are stuck in clearly can be detrimental to an intimate relationship unless the partner is included and is happy to partake. The sex with men fantasy is only one example of the fantasyland that CDs have nurtured and developed through a lifetime trapped in the closet.

I will say another thing which people will object to. CDs are damaged goods. The shame, guilt and closeted lifestyle twists our sense of perspective so we are no longer aligned with reality and what others seek. We can mask this well enough so it is not obvious but it is there buried deep inside. We can unlearn these bad habits and focus on the right things but only if we learn to accept ourselves and be honest in recognizing how our CDing has changed us - the good things and the bad things.


The wife feels the increasing distance, and this causes her to retreat as well. It is a turnoff for a GG to feel that her husband is just going through the motions. I quite agree but again this routinely happens in most relationships for many reasons and it is usually a two way street. The husband can feel his wife backing away as well. Both of them will get angry and depressed that the other is not showing the love and interest that they expect. It becomes self-reinforcing on both sides. In most CDing relationships there is already a lack of openness and communication on both sides, so the chances of CDing matters being discussed and resolved is not good.



Then these CDs are not fully disclosing themselves to their GG partners when they initially say the CDing is only about the clothes or getting in touch with their feminine feelings YES. The CD community is dishonest in wanting to describe only a positive outlook on their behavior while denying (even to themselves) the less appealing aspects. It is understandable why this happens but it results in a lack of progress in relationships and the community at large.


To blame the insecurities on the GG is not fair. Blame? Insecurities exist, we all have them. The insecurities that GGs feel about CDing came into being on the day of revelation. The issue at hand is how you deal with them and how much you will let them affect your behavior towards your partner. If there is no evidence that your partner wants to act on his fantasy then you must take personal responsibility for your own feelings.

Here is the nasty side of human behavior. We want to uncover evidence that confirms our worst fears, we want to feel our insecurities were justified and we were not silly to feel this way. We want to shout out - See! I knew it! I told you so! Insecurities can easily lead to destructive behavior and the breakdown in trust when nothing has taken place to justify it.


if the CDer unapologetically places increasing importance on the CDing and the fantasies involved with it, it makes it even more difficult for marriages to thrive. I agree which is why it is important that the CDer needs to exit both the physical closet and his fantasyland. But that can only be a realistic expectation if his SO is accepting and accommodating and wants involvement and openness. When the SO shuts out the CDing she is effectively keeping her partner in the closet. What effect do you think a rejecting SO has on the CDer's feelings of shame and guilt and willingness to divulge everything including the less appealing parts?



This is precisely why non-accepting GGs do not like the CDing. Are you not getting ahead of yourself? Non-accepting GGs do not accept the dressing period. Lets not confuse the ignorance and prejudice that precludes SO acceptance from the issue that CDs may focus on fantasies to the detriment of their sexual relationships.


This is when she realizes that the CDing is a lot more than just about the clothes. I would hope that everyone realizes this by now. The big problem is the "Tri-Ess effect" where the sexual aspect is swept under the carpet by both CDs and SOs. The prudence of Western society can be exacerbating.



In this case, the husband would not be turned off because the wife is the wrong gender. No you got this wrong. We are attracted only to women (assuming not gay or bi) and we are not turned off by them being the wrong gender. You are confusing a gender based fantasy with sexual attraction. If you look at the comments it is all about being with "men" - not a particular man. The men are just mannequins, their purpose is to enhance our desire to feel feminine by placing us in a certain role.



This might be because they are not getting much action from their husbands It could be that but the point is that 1/3 of western women regularly consume sexual fantasies and it happens in all age groups and all states of relationships. I was countering the idea that obsessing with fantasies is only a male activity. The damage you are describing where CDs focus excessively on fantasies also happens in other relationships such as women who seek their satisfaction from romance novels and not from her partner.


Do you not believe this to be the beginning of late onset transexualism? I am coming to the conclusion that a TS does not need to feel she needs SRS in order to be a TS. Not in this definition. Well that is a whole other thread! but yes I absolutely agree with you. I communicated extensively with three TS many years ago and I know the "female spirit trapped within a male body" is another example where the whole truth is being smudged for the purposes of societal acceptance. Secondary transsexualism is about the evolution of gender identity through crossdressing.



I will take your remark as being addressed to me. You know it was not. I was pointing out how *some will use this information to justify non-acceptance and will stop listening to what their partners are actually telling them.


This is not about trust. I am sure the wives whose husbands are remote from them sexually but are otherwise in the home physically know that their husbands have not had sex with others. It is all about the disconnect. And you think disconnect does not lead to distrust? Isn't the whole point that one or both parties is not telling the whole truth? How can doubts be dispersed that perhaps something will not happen in the future?


It looks as if we disagree on this one though, because the debate for me is not about what motivates or doesn't motivate someone to CD, but rather how the behaviors (when present) do affect the GGs.

Actually we agree on most things. However you are approaching this from a different angle focusing on the detail of the fantasy and the emotional hurt it can produce. I am saying there is a much bigger picture behind all of this which strikes at the heart of the problems CDs and SOs encounter even when there is a fair degree of acceptance. I think focusing on this particular fantasy can be counter-productive and misses the bigger opportunity to draw back the curtain on this whole charade.

There are so many obstacles in dealing with CDing in a relationship that I sometimes wonder how relationships survive. I wish I could say it was always through empathy and honesty but clearly denial plays a major part in many relationships.

I always enjoy debating with you Reine. There is always much to be learned when people actively engage in swapping ideas and experiences. I am dismayed at the close mindedness of those who cry derision listening to a different point of view.

[Sheila]

There is always much to be learned when people actively engage in swapping ideas and experiences.

This is true Satrana, but only if one engages with an open mind and heart


I am dismayed at the close mindedness of those who cry derision listening to a different point of view.

It dismays me when people make themselves appear to be open minded and accepting of other viewpoints while all the time digging at them and trying to be-little their view points and those of others they are trying to put across :straightface:

Whether you like it or not Satrana Reine and other GG's here are telling you how we/other GG's feel and how it affects us/their relationships ........... some GG's will not post int his section because of the flak they get from some of the CDERS, and that is sad and scary ........... all of us do not have the intellectual ability that you and Reine have to make your points and views know, but just because we don't, does not make them any less valid ............ whether you choose to believe what Reine and other GG's are saying about how things affect their/our relationships with their CDing partners is neither here nor there ................ we are saying those because it happens to be the truth ........... maybe our truth, and not yours or what you want to hear, but they are our truths non the less:straightface:

[Karen564]

Wow, this getting Way to deep for me....

Sorry, I guess this is my way to tell everyone to lighten up !

Love & Peace..:love:

[siantv2003]

But its not for me.

Given it some thought based on posts I've read here but it ... well, lets just say its no for this girl! Guess I'm a member of the lesbian side :-)

[Michelia]

I am dismayed by the "we" vs. "them" attitude by many of the posters here. I am also dismayed by the lack of allowance for different personalities. It seems many of the posters are being quite judgemental on both sides. Many of you are using your own feelings and viewpoints to create a "truth" for others to adhere to. We are all different, have different needs and wants. In the spirit of this forum, when we become so critical of others, we shut down effective communication.

Satrana has a lot of great points here and to dismiss them as stubborness or arrogance or her being argumentative is doing no one any good. I also respect Reine's point of view and she makes a compelling argument for coming clean with our partners. This may also be an ideal to aspire to, but it is not always within the reality of our lives, CD or no CD. And yes, many people in this world have to "settle" for a less than ideal relationship! This is true around the world! Like it or not! And please voice your concerns for all GG's but do not speak for all GG's. They are all different too. Thank goodness!

And the only "truth" about this subject that I know is this... This is a very complicated topic with no "easy" solutions. Thus, there is very little room for dogmatism.

As a CD with a boyfriend and married to the best GG in the world I know this from first hand experience. It takes a lot of work and communication to even broach the subject, much less discuss it in depth with your SO. This is not for everyone and I do not necessarily recommend it, specially if you do not already have a lot of common ground you have sown and harvested together. I am lucky to have a brilliant and open-minded GG who knows everything about me and helps guide me. I thank my lucky stars everyday she is in my life. I also thank her so for allowing me to explore another side of my life I did not even know existed.

I chose to post about my experiences elsewhere specifically to avoid the very exchanges displayed in this thread. But I would have loved to share them with all the great people I have come to love and respect on this site. So please, realize the harm you do when you get so carried away with your judgements of others.

By the way, Tri-ess has a history of canning and censoring members who disagree with them on this very topic. In spite of the good work they have done advancing the cause of the transgendered and promoting self-acceptance, they remain heavily politicized over-representing the CD population as strictly heterosexual at the expense of the bi-curious, bisexual, and gay CD population. Simply put, they lie about a lot of things.

[Satrana]

while all the time digging at them and trying to be-little their view points and those of others they are trying to put across So no-one else can have a different point of view or else you consider that to be belittling? My way or the highway indeed.


whether you choose to believe what Reine and other GG's are saying about how things affect their/our relationships If you had bothered to read my posts I have repeatedly acknowledged the hurt this can cause. I have never once questioned it does not occur. You have mis-characterized my posts. In fact you will see that I mostly agree with the points Reine and others have made.

I agree that this fantasy will cause distance between couples, will lead to pain, fear and misgivings and that CDs are being dishonest in not revealing to what degree their sexuality revolves around their crossdressing fantasies. What part of your "truth" am I not agreeing with?

You have now responded twice to me with dismissive put-downs and have not discussed even a single issue raised.
Why is it you insist that we must recognize your point of view as valid while mine apparently is not? :sad:

How is understanding going to develop if you refuse to acknowledge a different point of view and engage? If you think my thoughts misguided then feel free to explain why they are. I welcome positive engagement and the exchange of ideas. That is an important function of this forum. Tell me why I am wrong without the personal insults.:sad:

Lets leave the score-pointing to the politicians.:love:

Enuf said.




By the way, Tri-ess has a history of canning and censoring members who disagree with them on this very topic. In spite of the good work they have done advancing the cause of the transgendered and promoting self-acceptance, they remain heavily politicized over-representing the CD population as strictly heterosexual at the expense of the bi-curious, bisexual, and gay CD population. Simply put, they lie about a lot of things.
This is what I have repeatedly heard as well. It differs from chapter to chapter but some refuse to allow gay membership while others are more relaxed. It it not just the bi-homosexual angle that bugs me though. It is the suppression of all aspects of sexuality which also expands the lie. Their official line apparently is that crossdressing is primarily about emotions and release from stress and thus sexuality is minimized as an irrelevant side issue. The truth is the sexual angle is the dominant behavior for large numbers of CDs.
I guess the objective of Tri-ess is to make CDing as compatible and non-threatening as possible to encourage SO acceptance. Along the way truth lost out.

[Sarah_GG]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread, specifically the Reine and Satrana posts.

Uncomfortable issues have been aired and discussed intelligently and I'd like to thank both parties for expressing what I - for one - feel and intrinsically understand, but can't quite put into words in an articulate and coherent way.

There is plenty of food for thought here.

Thank you.

[Sue101]

I usually just read here but I wanted to express a big thanks to ReineD and Satrana for great postings. made me really think hard about waht I am doing and if it is a good thing to do. Made me question these things for the first time.

I have no idea why people are picking on Satrana. what they say is untrue. She writes forceful but balanced posts. I am really looking forward to Reine's reply. Keep up the good work this stuff changes lives :)

Go ReineD!

[Fab Karen]

I thought I had.
As to Tri-Ess, I can only get my information from groups that are reputable. Perhaps I should join the meetup sites and find out how many of those CDs are or have been in relationships with GGs? If you can find some studies that show that the majority of CDs are homosexual, then please post the resources here.

Karen, I'm not the enemy and I'm sorry you're taking it this way. Perhaps you'd rather the GGs not come here and contribute their POV at all.
There have been no reputable studies done to show the majority of CD's are hetero, gay, bi, pansexual, or even left-handed. You can play it safe by saying "many are ____"

You assumed all the CD's responding to this thread are married to or in relationship with a GG, I pointed out to you it isn't accurate to do so, and tends to encourage stereotypes. That's why I say for example create a post addressing such people rather than assuming all CD's are in a ( monogamous )relationship with a GG.
If you read back, you can see I agree with you about such people who don't communicate/lie/hide etc. I never viewed you as "the enemy," and did not & do not imply that GG's shouldn't come here and contribute. I FEEL QUITE THE OPPOSITE, I'm glad that you & they do.

[mklinden2010]

**The truth is the sexual angle is the dominant behavior for large numbers of CDs.


I absolutely agree with this - although I might say, "a sexual angle of some sort..." and wish it was put forward more often as "the" reason for everything CD related.

Having a "femme side" as an explanation just makes me sick - and it causes my four sisters to laugh at such foolishness:

"Yeah. Hey, let me get my boots, cutoffs, and crappy t-shirt and express my "masc" (masculine) side for an hour. I need a break from the horror of being me. Snark-snark-snark...")

Sex as a reason or explanation for behavior is universal common ground and the key to acceptance. "Oh, I get THAT!"

Gender desires are a bit murkier, but, "You think and dream what you think and dream..." Barring actual mental defect, abuse, or confusion, live life any way you want to.

In childhood and early adulthood, CDing is auto-erotic behavior sexual behavior and, I think, it then gets layered with various "explanations" as one lives one's life. You can start up a behavior, like collecting model trains, and layer on "reasons" for continuing the activity - as it may wind up having more uses - like it becomes an investment vehicle, a way to socialize, a way to understand things other people live with... Whatever.

I doubt, when you get down to it, that anyone disagrees with sex as "the" or "a" reason for many things. Then you get down to "which" or "what" sex to discuss.



**I guess the objective of Tri-ess is to make CDing as compatible and non-threatening as possible to encourage SO acceptance. Along the way truth lost out.


Tri-ess may just be a niche that some people file into and which those already "invested" want to maintain. It may work for couples because through membership they "agree" on "the rules" of the behavior in their lives. That's better than nothing, but, as noted, it's not the truth really. Meanwhile, for those who wonder about "those people" Tri-ess may serve as just enough of a touchstone for the mildly interested/concerned that they take the explanations given and go on with their lives without acting against, "those people." That's all to the good, as far as it goes.

My position is that CDing, to keep this simple, as an activity is "training wheels" for what logically and practically follows from taking/playing/living the role of the opposite sex. CDing, as a practical matter, I think, just barely crosses the line from "plain heterosexual" being to "slightly homosexual" being. A CDer begins to "get" things about "what's going on over there" that a non-CD might never consider in their heads.

I was very lucky to encounter some of my issues with CDing when it was already possible for people to say, "I might be a little gay... You know... Good looking guy with lots of money and too much tequila going around at the party. Oh, well..." I was also lucky to encounter some of these issues when it was more commonly held that "sex is just sex and it doesn't cause solar eclipses or crop failures."

Historically the main "problem" with "the gay issue" seems to not have originally been a church angle at all, but the abuse of one person by another. In ancient times, men and women engaged in the same behaviors people do now, but the abuse of one person over another - rape - was noted as a real problem in wartime (males taken and forced into sexual actions against their will) and, on a smaller scale, the strong male bully against the weaker male. Not to mention that "the boys" spending so much time with one another was time spent away from the women and (their) families. Women, you may recall, used to be more in charge of things in the ancient world... There were always more goddesses than gods... Yet, historically the "winners" write the history books.

And, speaking of history and sex, groups that could sell personal safety and family safety were groups likely to compete better and grow more successfully. And, here we are, 2,000 years later trying to figure out how we can all safely and happily live together given all the new living arrangements now possible - and necessary. Who after all, can know who's child is going to grow up and be happiest with someone of their own sex? Can't we all just be loved and be safe?

I don't have a problem with 20,000 people viewing this thread. I have a problem, however, with 19,990 viewing these posts mainly for it's possible sexual content and nothing more. Sex is sex, but everyone you have sex with, or, think about having sex with, is a person.

So, don't abuse people or yourself by imagining that this is just a short trip over the line. You'll be back. There's nothing wrong with what you're doing, it's mostly just how you're doing it. Be who you are, but be well and be kind.

[KayC]

Good post #332 Satrana...you and Reine have done an excellent job of covering this subject. I don't feel this should be an us vs them thing either, we are all here because we care about each other and want to learn. Sometimes, however, it can strike a chord in us or not come across how we intend. Not everyone, as Sheila pointed out, is as articulate as Satrana and Reine, but we all have our own valid perspectives...it's sometimes frustrating if we can't figure out how to get it across the right way.

I appreciated how Satrana put it:
"We are attracted only to women (assuming not gay or bi) and we are not turned off by them being the wrong gender. You are confusing a gender based fantasy with sexual attraction. If you look at the comments it is all about being with "men" - not a particular man. The men are just mannequins, their purpose is to enhance our desire to feel feminine by placing us in a certain role."
...however, I'm not sure that's the case for all CDers that want a male.

My biggest point I wanted to get across is if someone is in a committed relationship, to pursue someone else, regardless of gender issues, is harmful to their SO and relationship. Period. Honesty is the better road but yes, sometimes comes with a price...but so does dishonesty. For myself, dishonesty is a deal breaker. I don't think a person has to share every thought that goes on in their head, but if it's pertinent to the relationship, yes, it should be brought into the open.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Groups have differences...lots of crossdresser clubs exist...

i used to go to parties that were TG friendly...lots of crossdressers hang out and drink cosmo's and is lots of fun ...its pretty well attended and the host takes pictures and posts them (leaving out folks that don't want to be photographed)...that's all well in good...

but if you look at the pics, VERY FEW are of CD's in typical female clothing, even typical party/saturday nite female clothing...there are TONS of stiletto's, garters, garish makeup and a generally Sexed-up vibe

and when you look at more pics you often see pictures of girls sitting on each others laps or just pictures of fish nets on legs or legs in a red leather mini skirt and 5 inch heeled boots..

and this includes folks from TriEss and other "straight CD" groups

there is absolutely nothing wrong with this...but its impossible to say there is no sexual component and its difficult to say its not a primary motivation..

and btw...its a reasonable point to say that the sexual component is just a male way to release the anxiety of gender conflicts, but thats still a sexual thing, so at a minimum there is a sexual component to it...

if i was a married woman reading this thread i would be sending panicked emails to folks like Reine, Presh and Kay for support and understanding, because whether you like it or not, its going to make your SO feel more isolated and insecure about your dressing unless you have everything on the table.

[mklinden2010]

**My biggest point I wanted to get across is if someone is in a committed relationship, to pursue someone else, regardless of gender issues, is harmful to their SO and relationship. Period.


KayC,

I respect that your point is your point, but I do not think it's necessarily true that someone in a committed relationship pursuing someone else is harmful. In a particular relationship, the partner's knowledge and support of an activity - in the main here, a CD's perhaps convoluted pursuit of themselves - is important to their partner's and thus their own health and well-being.

I get it that when CDer's complain about their partner's lack of support or interest that they do have a valid need there somewhere. It's too bad, however, that few CDer's seem to understand, "She IS telling you what you need to know to reshape your game. Now, do that and improve your common relationship. Get on with it."

More commonly, their are "open" relationships where people are committed to one another, in marriage for example, but between themselves have worked out some particular variation(s) that suit them just fine. They're often called "open" relationships but it's more a term for "leave us be" than anything else. In reality, it may be a more intimate and functional model, for them, than any cookie-cutter, textbook, dictionary definition of what people's lives are "supposed" to be. So, I, for one, am content to, in fact, leave them be so long as I am free to go elsewhere if I chose to: "Your being honest gives me information to make choices too. Thank you."


**Honesty is the better road but yes, sometimes comes with a price...but so does dishonesty. For myself, dishonesty is a deal breaker. I don't think a person has to share every thought that goes on in their head, but if it's pertinent to the relationship, yes, it should be brought into the open.


Honesty with oneself and significant others is perhaps the most important of all things. I have been simply amazed at how my discussing my feelings and concerns with SOs has resulted in us being closer and happier. "Oh, is that all that's bothering you?" And, "So, where do I fit in all this. Can I do something to help?" It's not all been champagne and roses, but it has always been something that could be worked out and as it worked out we were both happier with it. I had, however, to do more than half the work to get the issue(s) on the table and to keep refining them until we got to, "Oh, well, that will be fine." Then, the only problem was I had to do what I'd been asking to do. These were no longer wishes; they were "Things to do" lists we'd agreed on. Very like singing in the shower and suddenly finding the wall slide open to a audience seated there waiting for the next verse...

To the OPs original post, the "man angle," I think - and as has already been noted - is always woven into the CD/TS/TG issues either before or after a certain age, no matter what one's maturity with the idea may be at any age or level of experience.

My SOs have always kept this in mind, even when I didn't. Some of their best advice has been:

"Well, yeah... But, be careful what you wish for. Most men are just jerks. Why do you think we - you and I - spend so much time together? You're one of the good ones."

That works.

[KayC]

I do not think it's necessarily true that someone in a committed relationship pursuing someone else is harmful.

Interesting take. I don't think "open relationships" are in the majority and I don't think they're as happy as they might at first think they'll be, but that's just my :2c: to each their own.

[JulieK1980]

Interesting take. I don't think "open relationships" are in the majority and I don't think they're as happy as they might at first think they'll be, but that's just my :2c: to each their own.

Then again some of us have been quite happy for years..... ;)


I don't think sexuality and CD'ing are linked, I think its more that everything in life has a connotation to sexuality. It tends to define us as people, whereas gender identity only partially defines us. I still say (perhaps my own bisexuality makes this biased) that Crossdressers are merely a microcosm of the general population. Whatever the normal percentage of Gays, Bisexual, and heterosexual are probably similar to the percentage of them in the Crossdressing community. Perhaps we are more likely to experiment than others, but that doesn't necessarily mean more of us are homosexual.

[mklinden2010]

Interesting take. I don't think "open relationships" are in the majority and I don't think they're as happy as they might at first think they'll be, but that's just my :2c: to each their own.



I think most relationships, if they work well and everyone is happy, are "open" in the sense that they have flexibility - via communication - within them. If they are "open" in that sense, and everyone is and stays happy, then they are what they are. Meanwhile, from that point of view, or, the other, I agree that the majority of all relationships aren't as happy as they could be.

I see no real point - if my SO says she is interested or finds someone attractive - to throwing a fit about it. Pay attention? Yes. Go nuts? No. Better, I think, to say, "Oh, really? Well, how do you feel about that? And, what might you want to do about it?" Usually it's just wanting to talk - and maybe talk again. Life is full of temptations, let's just be honest about it. I'm not in favor of keeping her locked up, but I am in favor of us discussing things that will impact us individually, as a couple, as a family, as members of the larger community.

Honesty, openness, and trust are "givens" in a good relationship. To the OP, I think if someone is CD and has sexual feelings and relationship fantasies about (other) men, that the best thing they can do - my opinion - is to talk to THEIR SO about it.

As I've already said, "men angles" are a component of every CD/TS/TG situation - my opinion - eventually and I'm willing to just say so and not worry about it. It is what it is... People may want to argue that it is not, not every time, and I can only wonder how either of us can prove our position short of discussing the reasonableness and likelihood of one thing flowing from another.

SOs have reasonably asked, "So, where is this going...?"

I'll say it again, the CD/TS/TG world would be better off to grant that "There is some shade of g-a-y to all that" and be done with that as a debate point. "So, you think about sex with men/women/sheep/basketballs/ice cream... Who doesn't?"

Meanwhile, in relating to your SO... Bad enough you should dwell on such things and wonder, worse to do it alone - digging a useless hole for both of you. And, as I have said, my SOs have, once they got the drift of my thinking, been surprisingly willing to talk about it and to supply some sensible cautions to such ideas.

(And, God bless they ones who volunteered, "I can get a guy for you if you want me to..." "Uh, no, thanks - very kind of you. But, I think you're getting ahead of me on that... Besides, I think it's the sort of "catch and release" thing I really should do myself. it just wouldn't be the same as doing my own homework..." Besides all that, I'm fully aware that picking up men as a CD is probably the worst way to approach, "the gay thing." You want to have sex with a man, as the joke sort of goes, just show up naked... Really naked.

Part of this being helpful to me (getting back to the SOs) may go back to trust, and/or just knowing me. They know me to be intelligent, and trustworthy to the point they don't have to worry about where I am and what I am doing at any time, much less all the time. And because of that feeling of trust and the caring that goes along with it, I think they feel good about being able to offer some useful advice and counsel:

"Hey, I can't follow you around and tell you what to do all the time, but here's a few things you might want to keep in mind about all that..."

Two heads ARE better than one. That is a big reason why we "couple up" in life, right?

[ReineD]

and this includes folks from TriEss and other "straight CD" groups

...but its impossible to say there is no sexual component and its difficult to say its not a primary motivation..
I see your point. My SO belongs to a TG support group and afterwards, many of the members would go to a particular, recurring private party such as you've described. The parties are no longer being held due to the host (an admirer) having become ill. But I've seen the pics. I do think the sexual component is the primary motivation and even my SO expressed interest in going once (on her own), but she ended up not going. We were going to attend together once too, but she did discourage it and now I understand why. This is not a place that mixes well with GGs.

Up til now I took it the guests were fetish CDs. I see now that they are not. They are regular CDs acting out on their fantasies, not necessarily with men, but "shaking their bootie" as my SO put it.



You assumed all the CD's responding to this thread are married to or in relationship with a GG
Please read my posts:


Granted, even if most of the CDs who posted in this thread (who did not disclose their marital status) are now divorced and they are free to do as they please,


Satrana, I'll get back to you. I'm working on a response. :)

[Cait]

I'm very much in the try everything once (and if you like it keep doing it) camp myself. I intend to try it.

[ReineD]

Satrana, thanks for your response and I do see now that we are in agreement, but discussing two different angles.



... and these thoughts can displace the sexual attraction to the wife especially in longer term relationships.

This is the prime issue as I see it too. In most of my prior posts to this thread (although sometimes my thoughts do become scattered :p), I was speaking from the point of view of a GG who accepts that her husband CDs yet she still feels him moving further and further away from her.



I will say another thing which people will object to. CDs are damaged goods. The shame, guilt and closeted lifestyle twists our sense of perspective so we are no longer aligned with reality and what others seek. We can mask this well enough so it is not obvious but it is there buried deep inside. We can unlearn these bad habits and focus on the right things but only if we learn to accept ourselves and be honest in recognizing how our CDing has changed us - the good things and the bad things.

You are speaking of having baggage. I sense this in threads and it is always a point on which I have a lot of compassion. But many GGs have their own baggage too, from their childhoods or from prior, perhaps abusive relationships. Speaking for myself (although I think that most GGs would agree with me), I'd be willing to move mountains if my SO were to let me in. So again, for those who are still reading this thread, I encourage doing what you can to incorporate your wife into your sexual fantasies, lest she should feel cast aside. Even if it means :eek: ... a lot of talking!



If there is no evidence that your partner wants to act on his fantasy then you must take personal responsibility for your own feelings.

But there doesn't need to be any evidence, any physical acting out with affairs. Just preferring to self-pleasure with the fantasies is enough to relegate the wife to second place. Also, if the wife senses on any level that her husband gets off more on his fantasies (using whatever fodder ... porn, the image of someone who is impossibly sexy, cybersex) than being with her, she will feel deeply hurt. It will make it even more difficult for her to believe that her husband's fantasies do not take away from his lust for her, especially if they have issues in the bedroom.



You are confusing a gender based fantasy with sexual attraction. If you look at the comments it is all about being with "men" - not a particular man. The men are just mannequins, their purpose is to enhance our desire to feel feminine by placing us in a certain role.

I see your point, but it's not the impression I got from this thread. How can someone want something so much yet refuse it if the opportunity should present itself? And there are posts by CDs who have tried it and they want more. Maybe everyone does have it in them to be bi, and CDs are more prone to experiment ... and then love it because it panders to their femme feelings. Why dress to attract men when out in public, even when it is done tastefully? Just the act of wanting something and seemingly dressing for it is enough to cast doubts in any GG. Especially, again, if they have issues in the bedroom.



I know the "female spirit trapped within a male body" is another example where the whole truth is being smudged for the purposes of societal acceptance. Secondary transsexualism is about the evolution of gender identity through crossdressing.

I do wonder if it is not more prevalent that people like to think it is. I can see it in this forum, in the many threads where the CDs say they would like to be women and do everything biologically that women do, yet they say they are not TS, nor do they wish to rid themselves of their male anatomy. It is difficult for a GG to rid herself of doubts about her SO when so many CDs seem to be in denial about themselves.


Their official line apparently is that crossdressing is primarily about emotions and release from stress and thus sexuality is minimized as an irrelevant side issue. The truth is the sexual angle is the dominant behavior for large numbers of CDs.
I guess the objective of Tri-ess is to make CDing as compatible and non-threatening as possible to encourage SO acceptance. Along the way truth lost out.

I see your, Michelia's and Misty's points about Tri-Ess and I do understand why they've adopted their stance. I wish they were more honest though, since eventually the wives who do accept the CDing will sense the deeper desires, it will affect their sex lives, and not having been told the truth up front can cause all kinds of issues.

I suppose I can understand a CD not wanting to tell his GG partner that he fantasizes about wanting to be a woman with a man. When you think of it, it should be obvious if you look at the way he dresses, in the same clothes that a GG would wear in order to attract men. Along the same vein, a non-CD husband wouldn't want to draw attention to the fact that he fantasizes about young hotties on a regular basis. I guess most men have the understanding that women would see this as a betrayal, since GGs tend to think about sex entirely differently. *Groan* and a GG married to a CD now has to contend with a double whammy! Her husband dreaming of young hotties AND sexy men! :eek:

But seriously, I need some time to absorb all your points. In all honesty, this thread is making me reexamine how I feel about having the CDing in my life. :sad:

[Karan49]

I've looked into this thread over twenty times and I think it goes beyond looky-loos or sexual titilation, rather there have been some wonderfully erudite explanations of what cross-dressing and even transgender behavior really means.

I'm impressed and I have examined my behavior. Reine, I also have come to consider what crossdressing in my life has come to mean. But I can't run or move away from it. I can but try to distance myself from it, but then I am refuting a part of me. I'm torn about what I can do. I transitioned over 22 years ago, divorced over 31 years ago and resolved to stay away from relationships as I did not want to inflict my behavior on another woman even though I told my wife to be before we married.

So many of the issues that Reine and Satranna brought up churn me up with long examined emotions and longings for a relationship, but I still don't have the answers of how to deal with myself in relating with another. It all seems so difficult and even impossible.

These discussions have been difficult but very neccessay. Thank you all for bringing them forth.

Karan

[NathalieX66]

Groups have differences...lots of crossdresser clubs exist...

and when you look at more pics you often see pictures of girls sitting on each others laps or just pictures of fish nets on legs or legs in a red leather mini skirt and 5 inch heeled boots..

and this includes folks from TriEss and other "straight CD" groups


Kaitlyn, pardon me for being naïve, but seeing that you are from NJ, I have yet to see what you've described from any support group in this area, Tri-Ess included from the half dozen months I've been at them.
Maybe your experience is different, or you saw things I haven't. maybe I'm boring, I'm not sure. You must've been at the Raven if you saw this kind of thing, no? The Tri-Ess crowd is mostly married guys looking for an outlet. So far most of the people I've met have been pretty low-key.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Kaitlyn, pardon me for being naïve, but seeing that you are from NJ, I have yet to see what you've described from any support group in this area, Tri-Ess included from the half dozen months I've been at them.
Maybe your experience is different, or you saw things I haven't. maybe I'm boring, I'm not sure. You must've been at the Raven if you saw this kind of thing, no? The Tri-Ess crowd is mostly married guys looking for an outlet. So far most of the people I've met have been pretty low-key.

i didnt say support group

perhaps i shouldnt have said crossdresser clubs, i meant clubs that cater to crossdressing and trans folks, sometimes even having events...

i have never been to the raven...is there something wrong about it that i don't know?

[Dixie]

I have tried it, it was a wonderful, fullfilling experiance. I guess I would do it again in th right situatuion.:o

[Sheila]

In all honesty, this thread is making me reexamine how I feel about having the CDing in my life. :sad:

Reine I find that statement to be heart wrenching, for someone who has given (and no doubt received) so much support from the community to feel this way is awful ................ please remember, as we tell all the newer GG's "NOT EVERYTHING YOU READ IS PERTINENT TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP", while many/some/a few feel this way, not all will, and like in any other relationship where there is another serious focus in our partners lives other than us, we need to talk to them and hear their voices & hearts speaking and not our own fears :hugs:

[danielle.cd]

I am still trying to figure out what in h3ll women find attractive about men!

i second that

[shannonFL]

My original fantasy was to have my wife be cool with my little voyage of personal discovery, alas, I should not have been so self-delusional.
"CD's are damaged goods".........I actually agree....from a GGs' perspective.
Yes, there is a lot going on inside the head of a CD, and also, inside the minds of everyone else. Why is it impossible for some of us to share who we really are with someone we have committed everything to? Back to the question....dating guys,..me....no...I can understand it though...someone to appreciate the girl side, showing interest, and just being nice.

[Sheila]

"CD's are damaged goods".........I actually agree....from a GGs' perspective.


I am a GG, and that is not my perspective, nor is it the perspective of some other GG's some of whom who are not involved in a "relationship" with a TG person ............ however I do see that said from many CDER's themselves that they view themselves as "damaged" or something similar :sad:

[zoe m]

I agree with what a couple people have said - maybe at first this thread was something people were looking at out of sexual interest itself (rather than interest in engaging with issues of sexuality), but I think now a lot of the views must be from people who are learning from all the complex arguments being presented. I have learned a lot myself.

[ReineD]

I don't know that "damaged goods" is an accurate description. It implies having more issues than others. I prefer to think of it as having some baggage, which we all have, GGs included.

And thanks, Sheila but it is natural to waiver. Even Marla, whose stickies are all over the place here, mentions it. This thread opened my eyes in a huge way and I do need to take the time so absorb it all. I did believe in the Tri-ess party line. It was the link my SO sent me when he first told me about the CDing.

Yesterday I read the online intro (first 3 chapters) to Alice in Genderland (http://books.google.com/books?id=XHm9s79izEEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=alice+in+genderland&hl=en&ei=f_29S5WNEo_WNe-T1JAK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false). I'd been to his site before, but I'd thought of him as "not the norm" if there is such a thing. Now I just don't know. After this thread, I'm now wondering if Novik's experiences (which seem to mirror everything that's been written here) are perhaps the reason why it is do difficult to talk about certain things in my own relationship.

[mklinden2010]

I generally think of most the CDers, etc. that I run into as "uncertain" goods, "questionable" goods, or, "expensive" goods. Quality (integrity) varies, cost (time) doesn't.

I was, years ago, lucky in that I lived a big city and my first out encounters with the CD/TG/TS community were, in every case, obviously stratified groups of CDers, etc. that could be clearly seen as, "Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced," "over-excited/clueless/naive," "self-gratifying/experimenting/predator."

None of this shocked me, since I tend to pay attention to rankings of people and things anyway. But, it was disturbing to see so many people put themselves (parents/wives/kids/jobs/friendships) at risk, be taken advantage of, and, wasting time and opportunity in pursuits they were generally not very good at and usually weren't sure they wanted to be good at.

Novic's book, as well as Helen Boyd's two books, both eventually end with the male being discussed moving towards being "a woman" and desiring and/or having sex with men. Since that is the case, I very often wonder why these are offered to SOs as things to read about "their" crossdresser, etc, unless the notion is that "If you're going to break the ice, break all of it." On the other hand, it's very possible that very few people recommending these books have actually read them all the way through. It wouldn't be the first time that happened with a topic or issue...

At any rate, over thirty years I've watched one of two things happen: either the CD gets stuck at some early stage of what seems to be an "evolution" - something of an infantile stage of ""Panties and bras, lipstick and hose, Honeys and Darlings and Gals - Oh, my!" or they move on down the path, or, down the slippery slope to to being who they ARE working on being which is a person more aligned with living and working as women and accepting that thoughts or actual sex with men is a given. "Well, you gotta live." CDing, etc. is not just "for fun" and most women realize this instinctively. Some, I have noted, get used to it and make a life with it, others cut themselves loose and live the life they've already created for themselves in THEIR minds and hearts. Good for them. Good for anybody. Usually.

Another thing I have noticed, and I was given a very early "heads up" on it, was that you'll see more beginners and predators floundering/working at meetings and clubs than you will people who are comfortable with themselves and happy to live their lives without so much surprise and drama. "Most people who have it together and aren't out to get something for nothing will never go to a support meeting or out to a gay club. Meetings and clubs not "real" life."

My SOs, and my community friends were very careful with their cautions about what to look out for, what to do and not do. Then they waited to see if I, or, anyone they advised would actually listen to their counsel. The "winners" get it and go live more normal lives (women do not turn themselves on with their workaday foundation garments and makeup) while the "losers" spent much of their time and energy finding various thrills and justifying staying just as they were: "I have a right to me!"

These rights are asserted while ignoring everyone else's right not to like them being who they are...

It was also perhaps lucky in that I was always willing to consider my thoughts and actions as "gay." There was a (secret?) "bonus" payoff in everything that I did. I didn't have to think about it; it was just there. And, it was there because you can't put on the train engineer's outfit without going, "Wooo-woo" at least every once in a while. There's no crime or harm in that - unless you want to deny the desire and argue that you just like the denim, the cap, and, the red hanky - "And, that's all there is to it!" Not so. You like anything enough to do it again and again, you'll find ways to get better at it and do it some more. Problem is what you think/feel "better" is and what amount of "more" is enough.

You can get off the merry-go-round if you want to. You don't have to wreck your life or fall off the roof. But, you do have to wise up and realize the entire scope and size of the activity you're dealing with really is and find a safe place to step aside and watch the rest of the parade go by.

There are various ways, I think, to look at CDing - just to keep this on the simplest example. It can be a gentle or a steep slope, it can be an uphill climb or a downhill slide. Perhaps it depends where you start and what you have to work with. But, I think there's no mistake to be made about what sort of activity it is. It's not a heterosexual activity - which, in my view, is fine. No harm, for example, in thinking about something.. a little... right? And, no harm if that's the way you are... "So long as you're not hurting anybody..." Weak, I know, but you hear it all the time.

My view is that it's a shade-of-gay and can go almost all one color or the other, but which has a difficult time being seen as "just" one particularly fine shade or another. Shades of gray are very hard to tell apart. Shades of gay are too.

I have no expectation that any human being is all one thing or another, not really. Just about anyone can be bought and sold; just about anyone can be tricked; any body can make a mistake; anyone can win the lottery. We're just people. And, as people, we're all heading somewhere in life. How we get there and how we get along with others (and ourselves) has to do with a lot of factors. This OP started with what I consider to be a very loaded question, "innocently" put. A very fine "fishing question", if ever there was one. But one that hides the facts in plain site. Those 22,000 views, for example, say more in raw numbers about those facts than the question seems to offer.

The question asked is:

"How many of us think about being with a guy while crossdressing?"

But, think about that... You're already with a guy.

What are you thinking about him?

What are you thinking you are doing with him/for him/to him?

And, that sort of thing would be...?

And, as for expressing your feminine side, is it generally the case that women "dress up" just to look at themselves?

No, they're acting with purpose and that purpose is directed at others. Certain others.

Get it now?

CDing is a purposeful activity, but, finely studied, it only has one ultimate destination.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that..."

Is there?

[Sheila]

And, as for expressing your feminine side, is it generally the case that women "dress up" just to look at themselves?

No, they're acting with purpose and that purpose is directed at others. Certain others.

Get it now?

CDing is a purposeful activity, but, finely studied, it only has one ultimate destination.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that..."

Is there?

How sad, the implication of your words above appears to me to be that CDER's ultimately dress to attract men, if not in the beginning, then in the end............ or am I reading this wrong ?


There may be nothing wrong with dressing to attract men at all, but there is for many of us if,

A) you are in a committed relationship where it is generally assumed that fidelity is part of the contract Written, verbal or by societal implication/usage as deemed to be "the Norm" (please note the usage of GENERALLY ASSUMED)

if your feelings toward the same sex change to include wanting to attract them, after you have entered into A above and you do not inform your current partner

Openness to others in an intimate way in your life is a good thing so long as all parties are in agreement .......... otherwise some people may end up very hurt and angry :sad:


If your words are read as I believe them to mean, then perhaps I am more in agreement with Reine D than I thought earlier ......... I certainly don't need CDing in my life if that is the ultimate outcome :sad: :sad:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Mk

I really liked your post

you said way too much to cover..but one thing i noticed is that i've mostly stopped going to tg outings..you describe the dynamic very well...i have been hit on many times by guys (which i like btw) and they always make a point to tell me they are not gay...i've also been propositioned by other cd's that claim they are not gay and swingers that come to tg events (i've been told i'm the best of both worlds, how romantic :straightface:...)..sex has been a big component in the community and i was very surprised by this at first

i think your characterization of winners and losers is too harsh but leaving that out, the description of the "arc" of many crossdressers is spot on

i have made some great friends and i'm keeping those friends, but now the "events' are dinner at my place or going to a movie...

i think you miss one fact that women do dress up to look at themselves and your idea of certain others should include other women..i think many women would take exception to the idea they only dress to impress men

but when u add it all up...as long as you are honest with yourself and your SO...

there is nothing wrong with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks

[Stacy L]

CDing is a purposeful activity, but, finely studied, it only has one ultimate destination.






That statement is so wrong! That's like saying that everyone that drives is a speeder.





.

[ReineD]

The "winners" get it and go live more normal lives (women do not turn themselves on with their workaday foundation garments and makeup) while the "losers" spent much of their time and energy finding various thrills and justifying staying just as they were: "I have a right to me!"

This is off topic, but I couldn't just let it go.

It is unfortunate that you find it necessary to label TGs who are at different points in their development as either being winners or losers just because their paths don't follow your own evolution.

If you want to debate this point, you should begin a new thread.

[Soriya]

I don't think she meant to call TG's winners and losers as a label Reine. I think it was more from the thinking of the 'winners' have a more clear understanding of what why they are dressing and all that comes with it for them, whereas the 'losers' as she put it are kind of stuck in gear, kidding themselves and exploring for the wrong reasons. Poor choice of words perhaps, but that is how I took it anyway. i could be wrong.

:)

[sonja]

Soriya

same way i took it all so

[ReineD]

No matter what motivates someone to CD, or where they are along the continuum, even those who are seemingly "stuck" according to someone else's standards, there are no losers. :Angry3:

We don't need to keep debating this.

[Lexine]

As I mentioned in another thread, I had very specific goals that I wanted to fulfill by CDing and none of them involved having any relationship/date with anyone of the same gender. I will, however, be open to the idea of attracting both men and women for the sake of friendship and, in women's case, something more if for some reason they accept me for what I am and why I do this.

With that said, I've already tried having a sexual relationship with another person of the same gender and, while my mind was telling me that "I can do this," my body's response when it came down to the wire was "No way."

[JulieK1980]

Reine I find that statement to be heart wrenching, for someone who has given (and no doubt received) so much support from the community to feel this way is awful ................ please remember, as we tell all the newer GG's "NOT EVERYTHING YOU READ IS PERTINENT TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP", while many/some/a few feel this way, not all will, and like in any other relationship where there is another serious focus in our partners lives other than us, we need to talk to them and hear their voices & hearts speaking and not our own fears :hugs:


Very eloquently put. We are all very different, and if you found 3,000 crossdressers, or TG you would have 3,000 different ideas, beliefs, and very different people. Please don't judge the whole on the few, Reine. As with any group of people, some of us are good, some of us are bad, and most of us believe our own world view is the best...:)

[Michelia]

Satrana, thanks for your response and I do see now that we are in agreement, but discussing two different angles.

This is the prime issue as I see it too. In most of my prior posts to this thread (although sometimes my thoughts do become scattered :p), I was speaking from the point of view of a GG who accepts that her husband CDs yet she still feels him moving further and further away from her.


You are speaking of having baggage. I sense this in threads and it is always a point on which I have a lot of compassion. But many GGs have their own baggage too, from their childhoods or from prior, perhaps abusive relationships. Speaking for myself (although I think that most GGs would agree with me), I'd be willing to move mountains if my SO were to let me in. So again, for those who are still reading this thread, I encourage doing what you can to incorporate your wife into your sexual fantasies, lest she should feel cast aside. Even if it means :eek: ... a lot of talking!



But there doesn't need to be any evidence, any physical acting out with affairs. Just preferring to self-pleasure with the fantasies is enough to relegate the wife to second place. Also, if the wife senses on any level that her husband gets off more on his fantasies (using whatever fodder ... porn, the image of someone who is impossibly sexy, cybersex) than being with her, she will feel deeply hurt. It will make it even more difficult for her to believe that her husband's fantasies do not take away from his lust for her, especially if they have issues in the bedroom.


I see your point, but it's not the impression I got from this thread. How can someone want something so much yet refuse it if the opportunity should present itself? And there are posts by CDs who have tried it and they want more. Maybe everyone does have it in them to be bi, and CDs are more prone to experiment ... and then love it because it panders to their femme feelings. Why dress to attract men when out in public, even when it is done tastefully? Just the act of wanting something and seemingly dressing for it is enough to cast doubts in any GG. Especially, again, if they have issues in the bedroom.


I do wonder if it is not more prevalent that people like to think it is. I can see it in this forum, in the many threads where the CDs say they would like to be women and do everything biologically that women do, yet they say they are not TS, nor do they wish to rid themselves of their male anatomy. It is difficult for a GG to rid herself of doubts about her SO when so many CDs seem to be in denial about themselves.



I see your, Michelia's and Misty's points about Tri-Ess and I do understand why they've adopted their stance. I wish they were more honest though, since eventually the wives who do accept the CDing will sense the deeper desires, it will affect their sex lives, and not having been told the truth up front can cause all kinds of issues.

I suppose I can understand a CD not wanting to tell his GG partner that he fantasizes about wanting to be a woman with a man. When you think of it, it should be obvious if you look at the way he dresses, in the same clothes that a GG would wear in order to attract men. Along the same vein, a non-CD husband wouldn't want to draw attention to the fact that he fantasizes about young hotties on a regular basis. I guess most men have the understanding that women would see this as a betrayal, since GGs tend to think about sex entirely differently. *Groan* and a GG married to a CD now has to contend with a double whammy! Her husband dreaming of young hotties AND sexy men! :eek:

But seriously, I need some time to absorb all your points. In all honesty, this thread is making me reexamine how I feel about having the CDing in my life. :sad:

Dear Reine:

I am really not being very good at avoiding getting sucked into this debate, but I have always found you to have a good heart and doing the best you can for all of us. I kind of want to stay out of it. I just let you know this, only because I have my own exhausting experience with my SO over this. I just cannot afford the time it takes as I have already spent it and continue to spend it with my girl. But I want to add some little tidbits that may help in whatever way but I cannot engage myself fully in this discussion for many reasons at this time.

First of all, there are still many generalizations being thrown about here. It is up to you to create, as my wise wife says, your own little world with your SO, and throw out the rest. All the points of view in this thread are valid (empty and harsh judgements aside) for educational and reference purposes.
Generalizations are OK as well, only as far as they help us understand the devils we face. We are all different and we must avoid assuming that what has happened with many will happen to us.

I will try and address some of your concerns in the same order they were expressed. This I will do in a personal sense reflecting my personal experience, as it is what I know.

Yes, at times it has been my SO's experience that we are being pulled apart by forces brought on by my CDing. Yet, she always manages to draw me back and focus on what is most important. But she is a dynamic and explorative partner, both mentally and sexually. Why would I ever go elsewhere? I am currently in a situation not unlike Alice Novic's but my wife has been involved in every part of my evolution and if she really wanted me to stop anything I am doing outside of our own sphere, I would do it now. Yet by her allowing me to wander, it has made our relationship stronger, not weaker. I love her more than ever. Like I said in any earlier post, this is not for everyone. We have spent zillions of hours working out our issues for years. But I can only tell you it has been worth every minute of it.


You speak of nudging husbands to incorporate their wives into their fantasies, yet in the same post you also mention that if we ever place our fantasies as a primary source of eroticism, then we are somehow relegating the wife to some sort of sexual abandonment. Your intentions are the right ones, but you cannot have your cake this way. Husbands and wives often think of many things while making love, not just while self-pleasuring. We do not typically share those thoughts as they would be very hurtful to the other partner. My SO and I have crossed that boundary. She no longer needs to know what I am thinking when I am making love to her because she has been hurt so often by knowing it before. Simply because she would ask me and I would be honest with her. Then she would be upset with me! Yet, as time goes by, I only want her more because we know each other so well. We do everything together and she knows everything I think. If I see a girl I like and I undress her in my mind, she already knows what I am thinking. I do not have to tell her. She does not consider it "cheating". She knows I adore her and I have never ever cheated on her. I should explain that when I see a girl like this I am not necessarily on a sexual thought plain. I love looking at the female form. I enjoy it almost as if I am looking at a beautiful scenery or a pretty garden. I try and not be obvious about it and I try to respect my better half and often I do not look because I am so absorbed looking at her beautiful eyes. And I will tell you the truth. I have absolutely no desire to be with any other woman.

Baggage. Let's not talk about the baggage a GG carries. It is equivalent to what a any given guy carries. Many guys come from abusive households, including myself. Let's stick with the baggage a CD or any tg person carries just because they are. There are high rates of alcoholism, suicide, depression amongst us. Not to mention unreliability, drug abuse, infidelity, etc. Much of this is because we are not accepted in our homes, our schools, our churches, or by our spouses or girlfriends. Worst, we are often not accepted by our own minds.

My quest to look for a guy came about in a very twisted way. Not at all like anyone would imagine. It is a very long story so I will omit it as this is already getting long. But I will say I never dressed to attract a guy. I always dress nicely but I must confess a deep fondness for fishnets and it is not really a sexual thrill for me. I love the way they look and feel. They are beautiful and I hate their historical association with bordellos. I will not let that stop me from wearing them if I like them! I know many GG's that dress nicely and/or sexily and they do not do it to attract guys. Now that I have a guy I will try to dress for him and the worst part is he could care less and does not even notice! The assumption that once we taste the pleasure of being with a guy we will want more and more is reasonable. But I do not see that happening in my case.

I do not want to be TS nor do I want to get rid of my anatomy, as you say. We need to keep some perspective. Many if not most of the members of this site are married and have families and function fairly well and have not interest in guys. There is wide diversity. We cannot say they are in denial of their own nature. But people can evolve and I am no longer sure we are born with a certain sexuality, at least not all of us. I always thought of myself as heterosexual and never thought I would end up where I am, but I have the type of woman that encourages me to pursue my fantasies. I do not think I would ever be in this situation if it was not because of her. I still think of myself as heterosexual as my relationship with my boyfriend is not sex-focused. We are friends first and I am in it more for the social interaction than anything else. It has been deeply gratifying but it will never replace my wife.

And to the final point, which I guess is what made me write this post in the first place. I am looking at it and maybe it makes no sense to send it to you. But since I spent all this time writing it, I will anyway. Just use whatever you want of it, if any, and discard the rest. Please do not be sad about being with a CD. The fact that we can be multi-faceted in the bedroom makes for very interesting and satisfying sex. You just have to be open to let it happen. We can also be very sensitive, intuitive, emotional, communicative, and many other things that many women find their men lacking. You have to decide if your partner is right for you, but not on the basis of his CDing. Just because he CDs does not mean he will be unfaithful either. You would not believe the hundreds of married men that approached me while I was looking for a guy. I was not interested in sex at the time, and I abhorred being looked at as a sex toy of some kind. But obviously this is what they wanted, all unbeknownst to their partners. I just cannot imagine what many regular (heterosexual) guys do behind their wives' backs. You are interesting, persistent, intelligent, hard-working, perceptive, and caring. You remind me a lot of my SO, to tell you the truth. We have put a lot of work into our relationship and it has worked for us and continues to work. I can not see my life without her. It made me sad to think you were sad about anything here. There are lots of happily married CD's here. Do not forget that.

To all those that may want to hammer me for anything I said here just save it. I realize there may be some contradictions, etc. I am very sensitive and I may not be able to handle it all. I also might not respond because I am a very busy girl. I am only meaning to help a bit. I thought about sending Reine a private, but she may be getting a lot of those anyway. And if there is anyone that can use any bit of my piece then it is a good thing...

[NathalieX66]

Mklinden2010, I read your post, though it took me a couple of readings to digest it. It's all worthy discussion. One thing I can't relate though, is how you mentioned that CD'ing isn not a heterosexual act. OK, maybe....but it isn't necessarily a homosexual act either. You would have to involve the thought of being with a same sex partner to be a homosexual act. All I know is, speaking for myself, when I was between the ages of 6-12, I found the whole aspect of women's garments and the way women groomed themselves very intriguing. I coould never understand why, at that age, such a thing was taboo if I engaged in such dressing. I've heard words like autogynephilia and paraphila, but since when does that apply as a rule? is crossdressing uniquely a western socioety phenomenon? At that age, I wanted all us boys & girls to be able to do the same things, without social repercussions. I had expectations that society would be one big gender blur, and that there was no such thing as gender-specific clothing. I really never developed any interest in boys. They are too physically like me, I thought....so what's the point?

[Vickie_CDTV]

I would never, ever give Alice Novic's book or Helen Boyd's books to a wife of a CD, and I can't imagine where the notion they would be good for wives came from. (Not all crossdressers are inevitable TSs and/or want to be with men, and reading those would just scare the heck out of a wife.)

If anyone is looking for a book to give your wife, I can't recommend "My Husband Wears My Clothes" highly enough. JoAnn Roberts' "Coping With Crossdressing" is also very good.

[ReineD]

First of all, there are still many generalizations being thrown about here. It is up to you to create, as my wise wife says, your own little world with your SO, and throw out the rest.

Michelia, thank you for your response. :)

For the record, I have been supportive of my SO's CDing since the beginning. It was because of my acceptance and encouragement that she gained the courage to begin going out in public. Her goal was to be able to do just about everything in gal mode that he does in guy mode. She did accomplish this and she does go out frequently in the mainstream, either alone or with me.

I've been in this forum for some time, talking to many GGs, here and in my personal life. My reasons for being here are to lend support and encouragement to the GGs who come here unsure of their SO's CDing. I am therefore familiar with the concerns that many GGs have in their relationships with their SOs. I am not saying that relationships with CDers are doomed, just that GGs do have concerns. This is not a stretch considering we do have a support forum specifically to address the GGs' concerns.

Most of my comments were attempts at bringing the GGs' concerns, based on my past conversations with them, to this thread. It was not meant as an attack.

In the process, I learned a few things that I was not previously aware of. That the Tri-ess stance omits certain truths. This thread corroborates this, as does Novic's book. So be it. If this is a generalization, then the generalization is not mine to make.

This does not mean that I believe that a relationship between a GG and a CD is now doomed to failure. Quite the contrary. But it does mean that it will only succeed if there is honesty and communication. Lots of it.

Thanks again for your thoughtful post.
:hugs:

[suziegirl]

First off, hello. New here...etc.... It's been a real pleasant eye opener for me to see a crossdressing forum that isn't mainly about fantasy and sex, especially on a thread which started as a question about, erm... sexual fantasies.

I've only skimmed this thread so apologies if I say things already mentioned. In answer to the original question, I've never really seen gender, only people and can be attracted to anyone if they push the right mental buttons. I have my sexual preferences but they are many, varied and my own. All legal, all consensual and, hopefully, morally fine. For all those espousing monogamy, faithfulness and honesty, I'm with you.

The one thing I've noticed which concerned me was the thought a GG would read this and ascribed views expressed to their own crossdressing partner. I can't stress enough how different we all are. The most glamorous, gorgeous, girly tv I have ever known runs an engineering firm, spend as much time fixing up motorbikes as fixing her make up, is 100% hetrosexual and - as far as I can tell - faithful.

I've found the only thing which connects all of us is the crossdressing. The range of views, attitudes, morals and sexualities is as diverse as in any other part of society. So please GGs, don't assume that because I love being with men means your partner is likely to. For many, crossdressing has been a solitary activity which involves making the most of what little time is available and that understandably leads to fantasising. Again for many, that's all it is and I think there are few of us who haven't dreamt of doing something we either can't or shouldn't. It doesn't mean we will do it or that we have something missing in our lives. A little private (as in, in the mind) escapism can be healthy.

Finally, and sorry if this is off topic, society doesn't accept transgenderism so it says a lot about a GG that she would even consider accepting it in her partner. Add to that the fact that it is extremely unlikely a hetrosexual woman would be attracted to a feminine appearance and that level of commitment is astonishing. Thank you to those who make any attempt at understanding and acceptance and please believe me when I say what any one of us says is likely to be a million miles from what your partner feels. x

[Rhonda Jean]

It seems we're all trying to describe all the shades of grey between black and white, with various amounts of pink thrown in. Impossible!

I could write a thesis on this, but would still not clarify a thing. I'll only offer a comment based on my own tragic experience. I'm divorced. I lost the love of my life over this. Not worth it! I would have and could have given it all up rather than divorce. Especially now, looking back, I can say that with absoulute certainty.

It was my fault. For decades I had lived on the barely-passing-as-a-male edge. At the time the sh*& hit the fan I was closer than I'd ever been. Far too close for her, as it turned out. She'd given me lots of freedom and encouragement over the years, but in the end she saw it all leading to me living full time as a woman. During what was perhaps our last "discussion" on the subject when I was trying unsucessfully to convince her that I was "just a crossdresser", she said, "No you're not! You're a WOMAN!

Several times over our three decades of marriage she had told me that she didn't know if she could "give me what I wanted", infering that I had some need or desire to be with a man. I assured her that I had no desire to be with a man. I suppose I was never able to convince her of that. It was the truth.

She saw all of this as a black and white issue. It's easy to see where she was coming from. The evidence was pretty overwhelming when looked at from an objective view. I didn't hide it. I didn't think I had to. I relished being in the open with her, never realizing that this put it all "in her face". I was oblivious. Over a period of time it wore on her. There was just no escaping it. Every day she saw the makeup, nailpolish, curlers, etc. on my side of the vanity. She washed my bras and panties and girlie clothes and put them away in overstuffed drawers and closets. She saw and felt my shaved body. She winced when someone would comment on my long nails or my long hair, or my earrings. My hair was longer than hers. My nails were longer than hers. My clothes were a smaller size. My clothes were more feminine, and I had more of them. I took time off work and time away from her to get my hair and nails done. I took overnight trips out of town specifically to indulge my feminine side. Irrefutable evidence that I wanted to be a woman (or was one), and in her black and white world, women want to be with men.

She was wrong about me wanting to be with a man, but on many other levels she was right. I loved "being a woman", and I had intentionally become more and more so, to the point that there just wasn't much male side left. What she either didn't realize, or it no longer mattered, was that all she had to do was say, "Baby, you've had your fun, and I thought I could play along, but I can't do it anymore. I don't want you to be my girlfriend anymore. I want you to be my husband."

It probably wouldn't have been immediate, and I wouldn't have been completely happy about it, but I would have and could have done it. The thing that made my life complete was being with her. Not being a woman. Certainly not being with a man. Her. It was too late.

I've been divorced for some time now. For a period of time I toyed with the idea that maybe she was right about me being a "woman". I'm not. As it turns out, I didn't have to give it all up, although I did for a while. My current girlfriend encourages a certian amount of cross-gender stuff. Her idea, not mine. I'm extremely lucky in that regard. I don't crossdress 1/100th that I did when I was married. Don't even feel the "need" to. I'll say again, I could have and would have given it all up. I wish I'd been given the opportunity to do so.

[ReineD]

During what was perhaps our last "discussion" on the subject when I was trying unsucessfully to convince her that I was "just a crossdresser", she said, "No you're not! You're a WOMAN!

... Irrefutable evidence that I wanted to be a woman (or was one), and in her black and white world, women want to be with men.


Wow. Rhonda Jean, your honesty is awe inspiring. :hugs: I wanted to quote your entire story, I appreciate your sharing it so much.

I do understand the part about your wife only being able to see the black and the white, and not the shades of gray. As GGs we understand our own motives, we understand the motives of non-CDs through our lifelong exposure to men, and so not being TG, it is difficult for us to understand anything in between.

I am so sorry that it played out this way for you. :sad:

Please tell me, what do you make of the majority of the respondents in this thread who want to be with men? Did you not fantasize about this? Didn't you go through a phase of wondering what it would be like? And what are your thoughts about those who point out that Tri-ess omits a basic truth about CDs, that fantasies about sex with men as a woman is a part of it and always has been since their youth?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this. I really do need to hear your answers.
:hugs:

[Lucypink]

I have been invited to dance or a drink by Guys at a local night club, and it is hilarating.
a few times they have eaven invited me to go out with them, and I have felt a strange rush and even think of going with them.... but I think they where not my type at first, and secondly I dont feel safe going out of safe area.
So I thought of it but never crosed the line.... Yet!!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I've been divorced for some time now. For a period of time I toyed with the idea that maybe she was right about me being a "woman". I'm not. ... I don't crossdress 1/100th that I did when I was married. Don't even feel the "need" to. I'll say again, I could have and would have given it all up. I wish I'd been given the opportunity to do so.

:hugs:

I really enjoyed your story and I learned something...i've never met anyone that mirrors your experience and you described it with warmth and honesty

:hugs:

[Rhonda Jean]

Thanks Reine and Kaitlyn for the kind words.

Reine... My thoughts about those who want to be with men... The reason I responded was that I knew that if my ex wife had read these responses that it would have most likely confirmed what she already felt about me when it's not me! She was absolutely convinced that she knew exactly what was going on in MY head! More so than I did, or at least more so than I'd admit to her. I imagine that there are other GG's reading this thread who are having the same reaction. My hope is that they'll re-think it.

Men just don't do it for me. Never ever have. Not even in fantasy. I fully realize that my appearance seems to contradict that. Within the realm of fantasy there is certainly room for a beautiful crossdresser, but I realize that that's not reality, nor do I want it to be.

I suppose the acid test was after my divorce. I was free to explore whatever I wanted, and even tried to convince myself that I should try it at least once. Remember... maybe she was right. I just couldn't conjure up any interest, attraction, or desire. Even with an attractive cd.

I attended two TG support group meetings. One was blah. I was the only cd. The rest were TS (and were convinced that I was, too. Even after just meeting me). Just wasn't my thing at all. The other meeting was all cds. They were all very feminine, engaging, and came across as genuinely nice people. Still, I was surprised at the amount of sexual banter and grab-ass. Not my thing, but there was my opportunity for something to happen with an attractive cd. Like I said... in the end I only wanted the fantasy.

I don't know much about Tri-Ess. As with any other group, I'm sure there are many imposters among their strictly-heterosexual-declared members, but who knows? I'm equally sure they fill an important niche.

I wear myself out analyzing this stuff. I've done a lot less of it over the last several months since getting into a serious relationship (with a beautiful GG!). I'm tired of the constant analysis consuming my life. I relish the feminine touches that are still very much a part of my life with my girlfriend, and glad I didn't have to give up everything, but I am no longer consumed by trying to attain some sort of personal feminine ideal and there is no particular destination. I'm already there.

[mklinden2010]

Rhonda Jean,

For all the success implied by being together for 30 years, I congratulate you and your wife. That things changed and this process put you both through all the pain that comes with change, you both have my sincere sympathy - and support. I hope, from all that, you both achieve even more happiness eventually.

Since you've been divorced "for some time now" I'll venture a further response. I do hope it's been at least of few years, however, and not less than two years. I am sorry for the things in life that cause us regret and any loss of this sort takes time to ease. Sometimes, "more IS better."

Actually, you did write a thesis. It seems to be, "Yes, I crossdressed for decades and took time away from my wife, our marriage, and ultimately myself - but it had nothing to do with men in any way, shape, or form.

My thesis, in this thread has been that it always has to do with at least one man: the crossdresser himself. I read nothing in your remarkable post to make me think I was far off the mark. In one way or another, CDing involves, as the original poster offered and the next 22,000 views seem to support, and which I have increasingly become convinced is the case, thoughts of being with another man are always there...

I don't think CDing is necessarily a bad thing. It comes about for someone because it has it's positives and it can be utilized for good or bad in one's life. I just happen to think the more positive approach to take with it is to accept that it as "a shade of gay" and to not kid oneself about having this particular element in one's being. You and your current SO, for example, are working with this element of yourself, and that may be all to the good. Long experience informs most of us that it's better to work with ourselves than against ourselves.

My SOs and I get along as well as we have, or, do, because I have learned to consider what time and energy I put into CDing and to balance that against our common goals and our progress towards them. I don't assume that anything I do is better because I do it more, nor do I assume that not doing it at all works better than some. Nothing new here, people argue for balance often in these forum pages...

What may be new is stating that CDing is a step across the line, if there is one, that separates "strictly heterosexual" behavior from "strictly homosexual" behavior and that taken that slight shading in one's life as a given frees the CDer from having to fight the gay/not gay battle entirely. Just shrug and go on. And, it makes common cause with the millions and millions of people who do battle daily for individual freedoms.

Thank you again for your post and I hope my thoughts might be of some positive use to you. It's unfortunate that we all seem to cause ourselves problems in one way or another, but this is very often how we learn to do better.

Good luck then.

[KayC]

Very well put, Reine!

MKL: Or...maybe Rhonda Jean means just what she says and doesn't need advice.

Rhonda Jean,
I'm glad you've come to a good place in your life. My best to you and your GG!

[Rhonda Jean]

Ahhh, MK,
Thoughtful insight and discourse is always good! You have your well-thought-out opinions and I have mine, each derived from our own realities. I'm not into men at all. It's just that simple. That cding is a "shade of gay" I couldn't agree more. My own shade is that when I'm out interacting with women and doing my best to "be one" for that period of time, I suspect that 99% of them assume I am into men, just as they are. It's an inevitable assumed commonality, given my appearance and demeanor. It's not even something that, during those interactions, I try to refute (unless asked, which it rarely is). I'm fine with being one of the girls in every way that it comes about. It's part of the deal, and probably enhances the whole experience. Fact is, though, that when they go home to their boyfriends and husbands, I'm going home to my girlfriend (or alone, as I currently am), and that's the only way I like it. I don't mind them thinking that I'm into men. If I saw someone who looked/dressed like me I'd bet the house that they were into men. I've even played along with them (the girls) in conversation, but when push comes to shove it's just not my thing, and I'm betting I'm not the only one.

I don't get it either. I've gone through more than one phase of dressing to be noticed, especially with the whole cleavage thing. Maybe I'm always dressing to be noticed, just sometimes more than others. Still, I'd rather avoid men altogether, if that were possible. It always makes me feel uncomfortable. Attention from men has never been something I sought nor enjoyed. My mode of dress would suggest otherwise. I wish I had a more insightful observation other than just to say, "It just ain't my thing." It'd make a lot more sense if it was.

[mklinden2010]

**MKL: Or...maybe Rhonda Jean means just what she says and doesn't need advice.

KayC,

Well, I may have missed a clear statement of, "I don't need advice."

What I read was, "This is what happened to me and this is what was and wasn't important about all that - as I understand things - as relates to this topic."

Had RJ not indicated a significant amount of time had passed, and had moved into another relationship, I would not have continued the discussion underway - at least not by replying to RJ's post - too soon, too tender...

It was, however, an excellent post and seemingly reasonable to respond to/with. In the midst of that post, it remained unclear if the issue raised by the OP and picked up on by the rest of us, "the man thing" wasn't a factor after all.

Reread what RJ wrote. Despite RJs conclusions about not being drawn to men in some way, etc. the written words belie that stated conclusion.

And, I'm not against, "the man thing." I am, however, interested in pointing out that it is/was there and is always a factor.

But, I have made my point now several times and will give this thread a rest until at least Monday.

Meanwhile, perhaps someone will start a new thread using RD's question to RJ:

"Please tell me, what do you make of the majority of the respondents in this thread who want to be with men? Did you not fantasize about this? Didn't you go through a phase of wondering what it would be like? And what are your thoughts about those who point out that Tri-ess omits a basic truth about CDs, that fantasies about sex with men as a woman is a part of it and always has been since their youth?"

[Sheila]

What are your thoughts about those who point out that Tri-ess omits a basic truth about CDs, that fantasies about sex with men as a woman is a part of it and always has been since their youth?"

Maybe Tr-ess omits a basic truth in some peoples eyes, but for others there never has been an attraction to men, or to dress to please men ......... Why is it so difficult for some to accept that as another's truth :confused: .......... there are several CDers on site that I know off that would never dream of dressing to attract/have sex with men ........ Debs is one, the others I refuse to divulge their names :straightface:

[JulieK1980]

Maybe Tr-ess omits a basic truth in some peoples eyes, but for others there never has been an attraction to men, or to dress to please men ......... Why is it so difficult for some to accept that as another's truth :confused: .......... there are several CDers on site that I know off that would never dream of dressing to attract/have sex with men ........ Debs is one, the others I refuse to divulge their names :straightface:




I'd say its absolutely a certainty that many CDers never want or fantasize about being with men.

The problem I personally had with Tri-ess was when I went to a few meetings, they insisted that there were NO homosexual or bisexual CDers. While this group is very supportive and helpful to those that are heterosexual, people like myself that are bisexual or homosexual were left out in the cold. It was kind of like someone saying to me, "sorry, but you don't actually exist." Its sort of the opposite thesis to MK's posts.


The real problem I think is that many of us due to our lack of a true understanding of Crossdressing wish to clump us all into a black and white mold of what a crossdresser is like usually one that fits our own mold, (this would probably make things much simpler for a GG) but alas we all don't fit into one mold or another, and I think we need to deal with each individual as an individual. What is a truth for me, is most certainly not a truth for every crossdresser.

[KayC]

MKL: Maybe the title of this thread attracts more that are into guys than those who are not, skewing the "majority" as a figure.

Rhonda Jean didn't ask for advice so I assumed she didn't need it, she sounds happy as she is, if I'm mistaken, my bad.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on most things. Have a great day, I intend to!

[ReineD]

Sheila, in this very thread there were CDs who said they are not attracted to men. But what came as a surprise was the majority who did. I dare say most GGs believe believe the line about the "majority" of CDs engaging in the CDing for stress release or for emotional expression. Tri-ess wants to have people believe that for the "majority" of CDs, sexual expression is not a part of it. This thread proves otherwise, as well as Novic's book which is about the CDing. Books written about TSs would not have the same issues.

I am talking about a tendency here, not individual cases. If both the GGs and the CDs can be real about the general tendencies and know they exist, they will be better prepared to enter a discussion about it in their individual circumstances, and perhaps it might explain issues they are having in other areas. In this particular thread, the truth coming out is that it is the rare CD who has not experienced fantasies of being a woman with a man, and this is something that should come out in the open, IMO. The degree to which these desires are present within individuals will vary. Whether it is an occasional, private, fun fantasy that doesn't take away from the sexual relationships with a wife, vs. a stronger fantasy that causes issues in the bedroom is up to the couple to determine. But the fantasies are real and they are much more prevalent than people like to admit, including Tri-ess.

[Soriya]

Reine, your last line is perfect...

But the fantasies are real and they are much more prevalent than people like to admit, including Tri-ess.

Oustide of the effects this has on an SO, being someone who is not attracted to men at all, in anyway, having those thoughts and fantasies pop up when they occurred was, and still is a very confusing thing because it just doesn't add up, for me anyway. As pointed out many times in this thread, with over 22,000 views, this IS clearly a thought process for most CD's and I would imagine for many, it is also one of the most confusing things to experience.

This discussion is great and has covered so many areas around it, but at the bottom of it all and perhaps a better question for many of us is why do these desires occur in the first place? Like me, a lot if not most have stated they are not attracted to men and only have these thoughts when dressed. I have been thinking about that a lot and made a seperate post about why that may be for us heterosexuals, but it got merged into this and is a few pages back. For me, I am trying to understand were they come from. If I can find MY reason, then I can better deal with it. :D

[ReineD]

As pointed out many times in this thread, with over 22,000 views, this IS clearly a thought process for most CD's and I would imagine for many, it is also one of the most confusing things to experience.

I am trying to understand were they come from.

I would say because it just is the way it is. It is all a part of the transgender feelings. Just like your eyes are the color that they are. (Sheila ... I am not saying that your SO experiences this. :) But the conclusion in this thread is that the majority do, to some degree).

But for CDs to say they are not attracted to men since it doesn't count when it is only present when they are dressed, and because of this there is no reason to involve the SO, does not help the SO deal with the issues that she faces.

And the other major point is that the degree of attraction would be individual. It is worth repeating that for some, it is an occasional, private, fun fantasy that doesn't take away from the sexual relationships with a wife. For others, it is a stronger fantasy that may cause issues in the bedroom with the wife and if this is the case, the wife needs to know this.

[Karen564]

MKL: Maybe the title of this thread attracts more that are into guys than those who are not, skewing the "majority" as a figure.



Just based on over 22,600 hits in less than 4 months, I would think those numbers speak for themselves.....

If some want to beleive otherwise, so be it...but just imagine if Every single person actually spilled the beans on their utmost deepest secret thoughts? which many will Never do here or anywhere, Ever!..but if they did, I bet it would totally blow many many minds....of course for many, they are just thoughts & fantasies & will never really act on them..but many others will if given that chance in total privacy...
I just hope the ones that do act on it also practice safe sex...thats all..

[Misty is Kindafem]

It is worth repeating that for some, it is an occasional, private, fun fantasy that doesn't take away from the sexual relationships with a wife. For others, it is a stronger fantasy that may cause issues in the bedroom with the wife and if this is the case, the wife needs to know this.

Bulls-eye Reine.

It's interesting to me that this is such a polarizing issue.

What is so wrong with having an occasional attraction to or fantasy about men? I think it's a shame that many GG's would hold their man to a standard that they themselves don't meet. Just because a guy can admit sexual feelings for another guy does not mean he's gay or even wants to be gay.

I got news for the hets, being gay is a lot more than sex. I've said it before but a fantasy about sex with a man or even having sex with a man does not make you gay. However, if your fantasies lean more toward romance with a man then you may very well have homo tendencies. Think of it like this, if you have a quickie with a guy at a wild party, you may or may not be gay. But if you spend all afternoon shopping while holding hands and snuggle together during a movie, you're definitely gay or bi, whether you had sex or not.

Personally I'm bi and can go either way anytime. I could be in a relationship happily with either gender. If I was with a woman, she wouldn't have to wonder if I liked men, she would know. I love men, so what? I wouldn't spend time trying to convince her I didn't like penises, I would spend time convincing her that she was the most important person in my life.

Honesty is the key, and the truth will set you free.

-Misty

[ReineD]

What is so wrong with having an occasional attraction to or fantasy about men? I think it's a shame that many GG's would hold their man to a standard that they themselves don't meet.

No Misty! :eek: We're going in circles here. I'll be blunt. If a GG has issues in the bedroom with her husband and then it becomes apparent that he spends time and energy with femme fantasies, it is a problem. It is obviously not an issue if their sex life is intact. But for a CD to um .... be auto-erotic and then to have sexual issues with his wife is problematic. This isn't so difficult to understand, is it?

It is not about being gay or bi. It is about a behavior that comes between a husband and a wife if they do have issues in the bedroom. But how many CDs who have such issues will believe that their auto-eroticsm doesn't count, or it isn't their wife's concern, since it is not done while they are in guy mode? In other words, just to make it clear, why the higher libido with the femme fantasies and the low libido with the wife? I imagine some GGs for reasons of their own are OK with this. Others are not.

And I'm not talking about the middle-aged CDs who have low libido issues all around due to their age, medications, or any other reason. It is the idea that a wife should be compartmentalized just like the dressing is for many CDs. Does this make sense?

[Misty is Kindafem]

No Misty! :eek: We're going in circles here.

No circles hon, we actually agree. I just didn't do a very good job of making my point.

Indeed, if there are sexual issues because of gay fantasies, then there is definitely a problem. However, I suspect that my plea for honesty would go a long way towards solving those problems.

My point was simply that fantasies or desires are NOT the problem. I fantasize about murdering someone nearly every morning during my drive to the office. Even though the fantasies can sometimes get fairly detailed involving all sorts of implements and explosives, I'm still certain that there is no law broken and no murder conviction will be forthcoming.

Speaking as someone who struggled with gay desires through two marriages until I finally came out during the first 6 months of my 2nd marriage (which ended it), I can say without a doubt that open and honest acknowledgment of my attraction to men would have absolutely saved my first marriage. Those feelings don't go away, they just get internalized and redirected as very harmful energy. The sexuality issues would not have bothered her, but nearly 10 years of mood swings and distance finally killed the marriage. Looking back, I would have left me too.

What price honesty? Would she have left if I would have let her in? Maybe, but the refusal to admit my desire, only bought me another few years of a bad marriage. The truth would have truly set me free.

I'm pretty sure that any straight or bi man who harbors secret gay fantasies would get "excited" by just talking about it with his wife if she was accepting and playful. Don't want a "submissive" husband? Then talk about it. Tell him what you want, do some role playing, compromise a bit. Make a deal, he can pretend to be a princess tonight if he'll pretend to be a fireman tomorrow. CD's love to dress up and and play, get some fun "manly" costumes and take turns wearing them.

Listen folks, almost all of us are of a "certain age" except me, so we need to stop acting like we're goofy teenagers and start acting like grownups when it comes to sexuality. We're ALL a little freaky in some way so let your freak flag fly.

Grow up and be honest with yourself and your lover.

-Misty

[ReineD]

Speaking as someone who struggled with gay desires through two marriages

It's interesting how you refer to it as having gay desires. I think most CDs do not use that term, because if they have the desires it is while they are dressed and they don't identify as men then, but as women. Do you mind if I ask how you identify your gender? ... If there is a simple answer to that. Lol.



What price honesty? Would she have left if I would have let her in? Maybe, but the refusal to admit my desire, only bought me another few years of a bad marriage. The truth would have truly set me free.

Thank you for saying this.



I'm pretty sure that any straight or bi man who harbors secret gay fantasies would get "excited" by just talking about it with his wife if she was accepting and playful. Don't want a "submissive" husband? Then talk about it. Tell him what you want, do some role playing, compromise a bit. Make a deal, he can pretend to be a princess tonight if he'll pretend to be a fireman tomorrow. CD's love to dress up and and play, get some fun "manly" costumes and take turns wearing them.

I don't know that CDs here will like to think of themselves as men, either straight or gay, but the rest of your suggestions for GGs are fantastic! :)


so we need to stop acting like we're goofy teenagers and start acting like grownups when it comes to sexuality. We're ALL a little freaky in some way so let your freak flag fly.

Grow up and be honest with yourself and your lover.

Well said. :D

[RichardCD]

For me Women all the way. Never even been a little curious about men. I just want to be with my SO dressed ( my fantasy ). May never happen, but I am still happy and love her with all my heart and soul. I would NEVER EVER cheat on her, even if it was with another woman who would let me be dressed up. (That would not happen as my SO is the only one besides this forum that know about my CDing)

I also feel to each is own and no one should have feel strange, bad, or feel that they have to justify their feelings, desires, or fantasies. Be who you are, let yourself feel what it feels. As long as no one gets hurt in any way and it is legal I say go for what you want.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Do you mind if I ask how you identify your gender? ... If there is a simple answer to that. Lol.

I'm a man. I have the same problem that all men have and that's a penis. My sexual desires are manifested outwardly in the form of an erection and a lifetime of managing that appendage has definitely hobbled my sense of femininity.

Having said that, I have always felt like an impostor as a man. Almost like I was wearing a "man suit" and all the other boys knew it.

I identify as a man who wishes to be a woman.

-Misty (even my name is a variation of mister)

[ReineD]

Misty, :hugs:

[PretzelGirl]

Sheila, in this very thread there were CDs who said they are not attracted to men. But what came as a surprise was the majority who did. I dare say most GGs believe believe the line about the "majority" of CDs engaging in the CDing for stress release or for emotional expression. Tri-ess wants to have people believe that for the "majority" of CDs, sexual expression is not a part of it. This thread proves otherwise, as well as Novic's book which is about the CDing. Books written about TSs would not have the same issues.

Sorry for going in a different path here than what the rest of your post went.

I don't necessarily agree that this thread proves anything on how many crossdressers are gay/bi. First take a look at the title, "Crossdressing and dating guys." For those that skim the forum, who is more likely to read this? Those that date guys or at least entertain the possibility. It reminds me of threads like "Are lefthanders more likely to crossdress?" Lefthanders will flock to the thread as it is something to relate to and righthanders move on to the next thread.

I know it has been said on this board before that some people feel that the percent of crossdressers that were either gay or bi was approximately the same as society in general. I would suspect that it is a little higher as crossdressers are already exploring themselves and accepting themselves for who they are. So it seems to make sense that it would then be easier to accept your own feelings of being gay or bi. But the responses here seem swung was in the other direction and I don't feel they can be used to determine which was crossdressers tend to go.

The truth is to me is that we may never really get a good feel on it as it is hard to get a good poll and there are just too many people who have repressed feelings or really just aren't sure.

[Sheila]

I don't necessarily agree that this thread proves anything on how many crossdressers are gay/bi. First take a look at the title, "Crossdressing and dating guys." For those that skim the forum, who is more likely to read this? Those that date guys or at least entertain the possibility. It reminds me of threads like "Are left-handers more likely to crossdress?" Left-handers will flock to the thread as it is something to relate to and right-handers move on to the next thread.

Thankyou Sue you make a good point about who the title may attract


The truth is to me is that we may never really get a good feel on it as it is hard to get a good poll and there are just too many people who have repressed feelings or really just aren't sure.

Or even after a while just afraid to come out and swim against the tide, then we have to remember that this is the Internet where people will sometimes just say anything for the heck of it and for shock value ..........

[Dixie]

In my short 42 year tender on this planet I have learned that there is one absolute in life when it comes to people. That absolute is:..................THAT THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES! We don't all fantisize about men when dressed, nor do we all NOT fantisize about men when dressed, and shocking as this may sound, ready....wait for it...., there are some of us who only sometimes fantisize!!!
If we were all "the same" life would be extremly boring. No not everyone has gone through a phase of curiousity about men, but some have. Of the ones that have not all have acted on it, and not all will for a thousand different reasons. I do not want to be put in a box and labeled. To quote Bob Seger "I'm not a number, dammit I'm a man!" well a man part of the time:heehee:, I hope we can quit trying to say that we all do ---------- just to make ourselves fill better or normal because we did----------.
Have a lovely day everyone:drink:

[Dutchess]

My husband is similar to most of the "lesbians " on the thread . He has never found anything attractive about a man ( including himself sadly ) at all ever. In fact he has slowly come to identify himself as a lesbian woman whether en femme or not and he is always worrying that will drive me away . It won't,, I dont care,, but the L theme is always present in fantasy or reality for him. He is kind of like a permanent tomboy/soft butch or the like.

Like the other posters have said ,, it is amazing how many shades of CD-er's there are.

[VickyMI]

Yes I have dated men before.

No I don't think I am very attracted to them but its still titilating to play the role of a woman out on a date. Walking into a room with a man at your side for dinner or lunch is soooo much like living like a real women. Maybe its the validation thing. Having someone open doors, hang up your coat for you seems to take it to another level. Much better than just going out to the mall and shopping by yourself.

I have been lucky to have a few long term relationships on the side. Love going to movies especially sitting in the back row..:battingeyelashes:.

[Michelia]

Bulls-eye Reine.


I got news for the hets, being gay is a lot more than sex. I've said it before but a fantasy about sex with a man or even having sex with a man does not make you gay. However, if your fantasies lean more toward romance with a man then you may very well have homo tendencies. Think of it like this, if you have a quickie with a guy at a wild party, you may or may not be gay. But if you spend all afternoon shopping while holding hands and snuggle together during a movie, you're definitely gay or bi, whether you had sex or not.

Honesty is the key, and the truth will set you free.

-Misty

Misty:

I guess I could now be classified as bi. Yet I do not really feel that way. And in no way do I feel like I am refusing to carry the description because I see it as something I do not want to be. But in the above quote you actually describe the opposite of the way I now feel. I am still not attracted to guys. I do not really fantasize having sex with them. I do not check them out. Yet I have a pretty romantic arrangement with a guy. I have come to like him a great deal and feel attracted to him now.

But the true woman in me has gotten to like him because of his personality, patience, and understanding, not his looks or his gender or his physique as a man. I like the way he tries to please me and takes me out where I want to go. It is the way he treats me like a lady all the time. I like his brains, too. He never criticizes me or is embarrassed by me. Suddenly, all those physical traits in men that I find so disgusting (and still do about all other men) have gone out the window.

The sexual part, while I do not seek to downplay it, is really not that important to me. So even if I have a boyfriend, I do not feel I "can swing either way". It is just not that simple for me. And maybe there are those of us that just do not fit in the usual categories. To me, I am still heterosexual. My boyfriend feels the same way as he has no attraction to guys. And people can insist on labeling us anyway they want, but I could care less. I guess I am saying in the end it is how we feel about ourselves that really counts.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Misty: I am still not attracted to guys. I do not really fantasize having sex with them. I do not check them out. Yet I have a pretty romantic arrangement with a guy. I have come to like him a great deal and feel attracted to him now.

Well, the above paragraph pretty much sums it up.

You're attracted to a man. You said yourself that this is more than sex, so maybe you're falling in love with a man.

I'm sincerely happy for you, but do yourself a favor and accept your feelings.

You ever see that Tshirt that says;
"I'm not gay but my boyfriend is" I'm gonna make my next guy wear one of those.

-Misty

[NiCo]

You ever see that Tshirt that says;
"I'm not gay but my boyfriend is" I'm gonna make my next guy wear one of those.

-Misty

My boyfriend would wear that T-shirt too...he's bi, I’m gay...makes sense lol.

[Satrana]

Hi Reine

Had some relatives arrive from overseas so have not had time to reply until now.



You are speaking of having baggage. I sense this in threads and it is always a point on which I have a lot of compassion. But many GGs have their own baggage too
Yes baggage is a better term. I think though my point is our baggage is different from other baggage like abusive or dysfunctional relationships. Our baggage is a social taboo, our baggage is our gender identity and sometimes our sexual orientation get twisted in unusual ways so it can be difficult for others to relate to. But importantly I think many CDs themselves are unaware what to what extent their behavior has been modified since they spend most of the time hiding behind a mask. It does not leave much time for serious introspection and an awareness how we affect others around us.


I encourage doing what you can to incorporate your wife into your sexual fantasies, lest she should feel cast aside. Even if it means :eek: ... a lot of talking!
That is probably harder than you make it sound if you know that your fantasies are likely to be interpreted as meaning something that is not true.

Take me for example. I am 100% hetero having never had even the slightest hint of attraction to a man. So how can I fantasize about being with men? Because all my fantasies irregardless of the details are all about situations where the focus is on me accessing my femininity.

You are probably aware of other fantasies like being a bride or going to a prom. GGs probably are not anxious about these fantasies as they tend to focus on the feminine dress but when you think about it they are very obviously male-female sexual/romantic situations. To my mind they are no different to fantasizing about sex with men, they have the same objective.

This is why I was questioning the statements from GGs about how to compete. In reality you can no more compete with a sex with men fantasy than you can with a bride of prom fantasy.


she will feel deeply hurt. It will make it even more difficult for her to believe that her husband's fantasies do not take away from his lust for her, especially if they have issues in the bedroom. I think men in general harbor fantasies that they keep to themselves because they know their wives will not understand that fantasies are just that. I don't think a man can control whatever images and ideas get him off anymore that you can control what colors you like.

If you look at hardcore porn which is pretty much exclusively targeted at men you know there is a lot of nasty and demeaning stuff in there. Lots of men look at this material even the sweetest most loving men do. You may not like the answer but I think you have to accept that males and females usually seek different things from sex and have a different mental route to obtaining it.



How can someone want something so much yet refuse it if the opportunity should present itself? Because there is a difference between an obtainable fantasy and an "out of this world" fantasy. Most people can separate a fantastic scenario from reality and keep it solely as a fantasy. If you are hetero then you really do not want to be with a man ever.



And there are posts by CDs who have tried it and they want more. Can I just throw some numbers in here. How many members of the population are gay or bi? I believe conservative estimates would place this around 10%. I understand there are 7000 active members here so that would mean 700 members who would reply with a positive answer. I have not checked but I would guess the number in this thread who said yes would be 100+.

I am throwing these numbers around to demonstrate that the perception that this thread with its large statistics must have real significance but perhaps it does not indicate anything unusual at all since the numbers fall easily within what you would expect from this forum's gay and bi membership.




Maybe everyone does have it in them to be bi, and CDs are more prone to experiment ... Undoubtedly CDing loosens up the tightly sprung coil of male sexuality which relies on homophobia to keep men emotionally distant from one another. So those with bi tendencies will definitely be likely to explore while others may just experiment to satisfy curiosity. If we look at young women today - surveys indicate that as many as 50% experiment with at least one lesbian experience. This is what happens when gender definitions are loosened and so you should expect a similar trend in CDs (those who have reached self acceptance).


It is difficult for a GG to rid herself of doubts about her SO when so many CDs seem to be in denial about themselves. I do not think it is denial. Rather it is an evolution of the gender identity over time until the choice to switch gender roles seems natural. There might be some denial at the end of the process when they are unaware of just how far they have traveled.



In all honesty, this thread is making me reexamine how I feel about having the CDing in my life. :sad:
Which is precisely why CDs keep quiet about this. In many ways this is a repeat performance over the issues of gender identity when pre-conceptions hit the wall of reality. Just as you needed to clear your mind of gender based norms, you need to understand that our baggage has affected our sexuality - not our sexual orientation per se but how we have integrated gender into our sexual drive.

It is difficult enough for CDs to convince our partners to be open minded about gender presentation, most balk at attempting to jump another hurdle. This is the real naivety of Tri-ess and the CD community in general - the desire to keep sexuality out of the equation because it seems like it is too much to cope with. Too many people unwilling to be fully honest about their deepest thoughts and desires. Although to be fair this is true of human race in general.

I am no exception. Despite being fully open about my gender from day one, my wife had to painfully extract my sexual thoughts like wisdom teeth one by one. It was not something I had the guts to reveal to her by myself. My sexual fantasy closet was one I was happy to keep closed but my wife was having none of it and pried it open. She knows what makes me tick and I in turn know what makes her tick. There is not much overlap so it is about taking turns with each other but we are learning to integrate it more together.

[Sheila]

Which is precisely why CDs keep quiet about this.

Which is why many GG's feel we are always having to play catch up, no sooner do some of us get used to one layer, when bam we get hit by yet another layer being peeled away



It is difficult enough for CDs to convince our partners to be open minded about gender presentation, most balk at attempting to jump another hurdle. This is the real naivety of Tri-ess and the CD community in general - the desire to keep sexuality out of the equation because it seems like it is too much to cope with. Too many people unwilling to be fully honest about their deepest thoughts and desires. Although to be fair this is true of human race in general.

If CDERs were open, honest and up front from the beginning, then we would have no need to balk at yet more and more.(and yes I know why you say you don't tell us, shame, guilt, you thought it would all go away in this new relationship, fear of losing us etc etc) ....... Many of us ask in the beginning the questions, "are you gay" (we may not ask "are you /bi/bi curious", although perhaps we should !!!! "do you want to be a woman full time/have srs", to those and similar asked questions we are told no, then wham time and again we are having to cope with the truth further down the line, which will yat again lead to trust problems, is it any wonder so many TG relationships flounder in this continued hide and seek relationship maze :sad:

I can honestly say not a lot has surprised me in this thread, I, a long time ago, read between many lines of what was said in many many posts and by many posters, talked with several and had my suspicions confirmed, what had saddened (if not surprised me) is the continued need for deception that many feel they have to practice with their partners, so many REFUSE to HEAR & ACCEPT, what we as GG's are saying ................. WE HATE THE LIES AND DECEPTION ................ they are what destroy relationships, (many not just in the TG world relationships), I am not advocating that we would jump up and down with joy, or even accept what we hear, but finding out after years of lying to us is not going to help the situation one bit ............... there again those are just my views and may be far wrong :straightface:

[anda_mouse]

actually having my first date with a guy on wednesday...dont know what to wear. so eexcited :)

[Satrana]

we are told no, then wham time and again we are having to cope with the truth further down the line If the CD knew at the time of asking then this is quite true. However often the CD is in denial or the subsequent issues we are discussing has not yet arisen. It takes time for the CDing behavior to influence other characteristics and like all things which proceed slowly, the changes can be imperceptible to the person until they become sufficiently large.

In most cases I think the issue is more about the CD learning about himself and how his behavior and thoughts evolve over time. So it is about the CD keeping his SO up to date with self-realizations and the progress in his gender identity. This is where the courage to be completely honest fails.


so many REFUSE to HEAR & ACCEPT, what we as GG's are saying ................. WE HATE THE LIES AND DECEPTION Do you really think they refuse to hear or is it they understand but from their point of view they are weighing up the pros and cons. If you fear certain information could end your relationship, that is a significant reason to keep quiet. Fear does not produce reasoned decisions.

[Mistybtm]

actually having my first date with a guy on wednesday...dont know what to wear. so eexcited :)

congrates have fun and be safe :battingeyelashes:

[StarrOfDelite]

[QUOTE=Satrana;2110500]Hi Reine



If you look at hardcore porn which is pretty much exclusively targeted at men you know there is a lot of nasty and demeaning stuff in there. Lots of men look at this material even the sweetest most loving men do. You may not like the answer but I think you have to accept that males and females usually seek different things from sex and have a different mental route to obtaining it.



I'm not sure if you mean gender men or hetero men or what with this generalization, but I can assure you that there is a boatload of pornographic material out there which caters almost exclusively to gay or bi- crossdressers and transvestites, to say nothing of the cuckold, sissy, and servant crowds, each of which has a niche in the market place. In the case of the fetish groups, I'm given to understand that verbal and mild physical abuse is part of the thrill, so it might not be nasty and demeaning to them.

Personally, I watch and read some of the better (i.e. quasi-romantic) transsexual hardcore porn and fantasize about myself as the feminine star. It is just as legitimate a fantasy as a fifty year old man with a beer gut who watches playmate-of-the-month pinup girls in hardcore.

Actually, if the men in the video porn industry were better looking I'd watch more of it, but I'm not attracted to fat, dark, hairy guys who resemble nothing so much as a shorter version of Hedo Turkoglu, and apparently that is part of the job description.

[Michelle8]

The more I dress the more I would be interested in dating
a guy.I could only do it dressed as a woman.i would love
to have a cute guy to do things with.

[Girl]

I love to fantasize about having sex with men. :o

Girl

[Georginamilnes]

Before my one and only purge,i had a relationship with a male,it was so good,when we kissed and made love I felt very feminine. He was gentle,loving,and considerate. At all times I felt just like a woman,and didnt even think of myself as anything else. I think its all about how you feel at the moment.:love:xx

[creigh]

May I interject from a male prospective.

I have dated Trans and have been surprised how many seem to be afraid to show their feminine side. This is more so with Cross dressers, them MtF.

I find them better companions, and more likely to be caring, and intimate.

But finding one that wishes to have a lasting, or long relationship is practically not available.

Although I have been in relationship that lasted more then one night, there seems to be reluctance to extend closeness.

Your points are well founded over all.

[Misty is Kindafem]

But finding one that wishes to have a lasting, or long relationship is practically not available.

Although I have been in relationship that lasted more then one night, there seems to be reluctance to extend closeness.
.


Hmmm, I think many of us would say the same thing about men!

We're obviously out here, we just can't seem to find each other I guess.

-Misty

[Katari]

I am still trying to figure out what in h3ll women find attractive about men!
I am like most here. I have had some thoughts about it but then again, I like Laura's response"I do NOT find Men attractive at ALL!!!
To this regard, I have not put it out altogether so as to say the same as Sherri "The only men that could get me interested are the ladies here. But then beauty is only skin deep and I would realize that they are men and slap myself silly and keep it straight".

Katari

[Alberta_Pat]

My wife and I have had this discussion in the past. Truthfully, I will not rule out such an experience, but at this time in my life I would not embrace it either.

On the sexuality scale (1= straight, 5 = bi, 10 = gay), I would put myself at about a 3.

I can appreciate beauty in men and women, but look more to the mind set of the individual.

My wife IS bi, and she disagrees with my scale. She feels that bi is not in the middle, but right there at the top!

[cj]

I've always considered myself totally attracted to girls. But when I dress I do get curious. I promised myself I would try it at least once and I did not too long ago. I met a nice sweet younger guy on craigslist and we chatted for a while.... then we ended up meeting at a local park for a walk. He was a total gentlemen.... I took him by the arm and we strolled around talking about everything. This was the first time I ever outted myself to another person... I was so scared at first. Our little walk ended and we sat in his car for a bit because it was so cold out. One thing led to another and he kissed me. It was kind of odd being kissed by a guy... it was like I was outside myself watching it... thinking here I am dressed to the nines and this guy is making out with me. It was quite a thrill I must admit. And I did get turned on.... but I think it was the idea of him seeing me and treating me as a woman more so that me being attracted to him. It's kinda confusing. But it was fun and I would do it again if I ever got the chance.

[nax66]

im attracted to men and women. I've never been in a relation with a man, but would definately welcome the opportunity with the right person.

i feel the same way

[MissyW]

Not interested at all

[Drakba]

Hmmm.... I guess I am a hard-core lesbian. I cannot for the life of me figure out what some people find attractive about masculinity.
When I have my fantasies, I dream about turning the entire world femme. Everyone is femine and beautiful. Lots of pink, and lipstick, and painted fingernails, silk and satin.

When I have erotic fantasies, the closest I come to thinking about dating a guy, is dating a non-op TS (which I had done for 3 years, when I was much younger.)

[nancy_babe4]

I find no attraction for men, but when I'm dressed it is very exciting to think of doing what a girl does with a man. I have limited experience, but would love to learn more. The thought of a man taking charge and having his way with me is ver very exciting. I also feel that is the girls responsibility to please the man she is with..... Hmmmm, did I just say all that...

[joannemarie barker]

I find no attraction for men, but when I'm dressed it is very exciting to think of doing what a girl does with a man. I have limited experience, but would love to learn more. The thought of a man taking charge and having his way with me is ver very exciting. I also feel that is the girls responsibility to please the man she is with..... Hmmmm, did I just say all that...

lol kinda how i feel too nancy :)

[nancy_babe4]

I do relate to the person who said being kissed by a man is kind of like an out of body experience. It's like is he really kissing me as a woman... I know I've been extremely nervious around a man until he kisses me, then I just totally melt... the passion comes out. :D

[ReineD]

It's like is he really kissing me as a woman...

That's an interesting question. When a bi male kisses, is the kiss different depending on whether the person being kissed is male or female? I should think that people just have their own kissing styles and they are expressing their sensuality, no matter who it is they are kissing.

Or maybe women kiss differently than men? But I have to say that some men are much more sensual than other men just as I imagine women have varying degrees of sensuality too.

[Sheila]

I also feel that is the girls responsibility to please the man she is with.....

ermmmmmmmmmm no, it is for both to please each other, regardless of the genders involved :straightface:

[kellycan27]

ermmmmmmmmmm no, it is for both to please each other, regardless of the genders involved :straightface:

While I do agree with you in regards to pleasing one another, I believe that by my taking a more submissive role and more or less pleasing his physical need, I am also pleased, as my need is more emotional than physical. In other words...if I can please him, he doesn't actually have to reciprocate in order that it be a satisfying experience for me. :)

Kel

[Perlita85]

I'm a TG person to rebel aginst things and persons male. So to anser the OP's question, Ain't no plans with a man here!

DITTO, a lesbian to the end

[Lacyfem]

I have been with a few men when dressed and loved it... However, when I'm not dressed I'm also not interested in men but do love the women... Go figure!

[nancy_babe4]

Some interesting thoughts.... My experience, such as it is, is that the thrill for me is that a man responds to me as a female and kisses me as a female. For that moment I am a female being kissed by a man and that is very exciting to me....:D

[Barbara Dugan]

That's an interesting question. When a bi male kisses, is the kiss different depending on whether the person being kissed is male or female? I should think that people just have their own kissing styles and they are expressing their sensuality, no matter who it is they are kissing.

Or maybe women kiss differently than men? But I have to say that some men are much more sensual than other men just as I imagine women have varying degrees of sensuality too.

That is something that I would like to know too...but since I never been kissed by a woman I wouldnt' know on the other hand I been kissed by guys on either mode and on my experience is quite different not sure how but while in femme think is more emotional and not lets forget the cuddling part too that is something I love to do :hugs:

[Angiemead12]

women only for me!

[ReineD]

That is something that I would like to know too..

I was PMing another member about this and it occurred to me that the greater psychological difference for a TG might be sheer body size. It is easier to feel engulfed more by being held in the arms of someone who is of equal size or larger, than it is holding and caressing a GG who is more apt to fit into the TGs arms?

For me, it has to do with feeling safe and protected (more than how someone might actually kiss), even though I know that it is ultimately my responsibility to protect myself.

[nancy_babe4]

I'm no tinker bell, so I do think she has a point. The idea of someone physically bigger than me taking me in their arms.... Yes, that is a very good point.

[danielle.cd]

I think I am very much a lesbian crossdresser in that regard.

although if there was a really hot ******* i dont know as if i wouldnt at least go on a date with them not necessarily sleep with them

[Barbara Dugan]

I was PMing another member about this and it occurred to me that the greater psychological difference for a TG might be sheer body size. It is easier to feel engulfed more by being held in the arms of someone who is of equal size or larger, than it is holding and caressing a GG who is more apt to fit into the TGs arms?

For me, it has to do with feeling safe and protected (more than how someone might actually kiss), even though I know that it is ultimately my responsibility to protect myself.

I think you have a good Point Reine. I am Hispanic and I always found kind of odd that I dont date Hispanics guys even when most of my friends are hispanic maybe because I am the same tall or even taller than the average hispanic guy. Big burly guys on the other end get more my attention :hugs:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I was PMing another member about this and it occurred to me that the greater psychological difference for a TG might be sheer body size. It is easier to feel engulfed more by being held in the arms of someone who is of equal size or larger, than it is holding and caressing a GG who is more apt to fit into the TGs arms?

For me, it has to do with feeling safe and protected (more than how someone might actually kiss), even though I know that it is ultimately my responsibility to protect myself.

This is a big deal for me...i'm 6'2 160 lbs...i particularly enjoy a guy friend of mine who is 6'3 200lbs...i enjoy the feeling of being taken or engulfed as you say...

[Angie G]

When I'm dressed it has crossed my mind. But it will never happen.My Wife would never let me have a boyfriend.:hugs:
Angie

[kellycan27]

Reine

You do have a point, there's nothing like having a big strong towering guy wrap his arms around you to make you feel small and safe. :battingeyelashes:

Kel

[mapletree]

never had had that thought or feeling
no not at all

[kellycan27]

never had had that thought or feeling
no not at all

It's not for everyone..............

[docrobbysherry]

Or maybe women kiss differently than men? But I have to say that some men are much more sensual than other men just as I imagine women have varying degrees of sensuality too.

Since I'm straight, they were ALL GGs!:)

Way too many to count! Remember, I'm over 60!:)
The number of women that REALLY got into kissing were VERY FEW! Most of them got HOTTER the farther we went!:o
Then, there was one at the TOP of my "good kissers" list. But, the WORST in bed!:doh: NEVER understood THAT one.:brolleyes:


I was PMing another member about this and it occurred to me that the greater psychological difference for a TG might be sheer body size. It is easier to feel engulfed more by being held in the arms of someone who is of equal size or larger, than it is holding and caressing a GG who is more apt to fit into the TGs arms?

For me, it has to do with feeling safe and protected (more than how someone might actually kiss), even though I know that it is ultimately my responsibility to protect myself.

Not sure how it is for others. I'm 5' 10". The most aggressive GGs I've been with were under 5' 4". THEY didn't care about being cradled! Two of the LEAST, were over 6'! I was bigger than both, tho, maybe I couldn't give them that?

I have been with 2 GGs that just their TOUCH on neutral parts of my body felt like electric fire!
With both, they were quite plain, and I didn't notice them until we touched!:eek:

If any of u folks r like that, I expect you could have an ENDLESS amount of partners of either sex! And, most anyone u WANT!:D

[kellycan27]

Since I'm straight, they were ALL GGs!:)

Way too many to count! Remember, I'm over 60!:)
The number of women that REALLY got into kissing were VERY FEW! Most of them got HOTTER the farther we went!:o
Then, there was one at the TOP of my "good kissers" list. But, the WORST in bed!:doh: NEVER understood THAT one.:brolleyes:



Not sure how it is for others. I'm 5' 10". The most aggressive GGs I've been with were under 5' 4". THEY didn't care about being cradled! Two of the LEAST, were over 6'! I was bigger than both, tho, maybe I couldn't give them that?

I have been with 2 GGs that just their TOUCH on neutral parts of my body felt like electric fire!
With both, they were quite plain, and I didn't notice them until we touched!:eek:

If any of u folks r like that, I expect you could have an ENDLESS amount of partners of either sex! And, most anyone u WANT!:D

Why you little minx you ! Kissing all the girls:heehee:

[unclejoann]

While I do agree with you in regards to pleasing one another, I believe that by my taking a more submissive role and more or less pleasing his physical need, I am also pleased, as my need is more emotional than physical. In other words...if I can please him, he doesn't actually have to reciprocate in order that it be a satisfying experience for me. :)

Kel

This is exactly how I feel sexually about men. I love to please them.

But that isn't the reason I dress. Totally different reasons to dress, since the men I've been with don't care about the dressing anyway.

[Mistybtm]

While I do agree with you in regards to pleasing one another, I believe that by my taking a more submissive role and more or less pleasing his physical need, I am also pleased, as my need is more emotional than physical. In other words...if I can please him, he doesn't actually have to reciprocate in order that it be a satisfying experience for me. :)

Kel

:battingeyelashes: I am also the same way you put it perfectly:battingeyelashes:

[jckie]

I love men, an intimate relation with a guy makes me feel even more feminine

[Michelle-Leigh]

How many of us think about being with a guy while crossdressing?

I know I do! I wanna be a naughty girl! :daydreaming:

Me too ! Even my sexual inclinations have long been more or less female....

[Elexia]

Myself, I've never been with a guy, not that I wouldn't, just u have never been attracted to one. So I'll never say I wouldn't, I've still only worn panties and don't know much about CD and thinking about guys, now I have always wondered how it would be with one, and when I find one I'm attracted too and is interested in me, whatever hapens, happens. I do have to say though that there's alot of you here that's very attractive and I could never tell you weren't female, so CD excites me on me and in others.

[Girl]

although if there was a really hot ******* i dont know as if i wouldnt at least go on a date with them not necessarily sleep with them
Sleeping with a really hot ******* - one of my ultimate fantasies!:o

[Elexia]

I have to agree, sleeping with a really hot ******* is also I big fantasy for me.

[nax66]

How many of us think about being with a guy while crossdressing?

I know I do! I wanna be a naughty girl! :daydreaming:

id love to try it:daydreaming::heehee::o

[Lacyfem]

When I'm dressed I'm afraid I'm very attracted to being with a man and my experience is that the men I've been with have been very attracted to me. That's just part of being a girl I guess.

[MissKara]

I have never thought about it ever, the simple act of thinking about going out on a date with a guy makes me want to throw up. I am very much a lesbian in that respect :heehee:

Lots of Love,
Miss Kara

[kellycan27]

Sleeping with a really hot ******* - one of my ultimate fantasies!:o

Here's a little tip.. if you ever wish to try this..DO NOT call them a *******. It's highly offensive...FYI

[Brooke Anderson]

I'm never been attracted to men and I'm very happy to have an understanding girlfriend that allows me to express my feminine side whenever I please. With that being said though, if the right guy came along I probably wouldn't mind playing the submissive female. :)

[Girl]

Here's a little tip.. if you ever wish to try this..DO NOT call them a *******. It's highly offensive...FYI

Thank you for the tip! (I was quoting an earlier post by someone else, though.)

[StarrOfDelite]

I was PMing another member about this and it occurred to me that the greater psychological difference for a TG might be sheer body size. It is easier to feel engulfed more by being held in the arms of someone who is of equal size or larger, than it is holding and caressing a GG who is more apt to fit into the TGs arms?

For me, it has to do with feeling safe and protected (more than how someone might actually kiss), even though I know that it is ultimately my responsibility to protect myself.

I think that part of the attraction of being Trans is being able to relax and not have to be 'on guard' against every other male in the world. I am aggressive and competitive in the business world, and being able to relax, release, and surrender as a woman is as much a part of the relationships I've had with men as the physical passion.

So, yes, I think that a physically larger man is an affirmation of the things I get from my CD/TV/TS behavior. One of the most satisfying experiences I've had was with a man who was six-five or six and weighed 300 lbs. I was terrified of being helpless and submissive to a creature that was twice as big as me, but when I relaxed and saw that he was just another vulnerable, needy human being, I really was able to release everything that held me to my male persona and become the receptive, loving female. Sadly, he lives hundreds of miles away, and I've only been able to be with him twice.

[paris3 GG]

Men are sexy, and since my partner has been becoming more and more feminine, I am finding lots of different men, so much more sexier than ever. There hairyness, there everything..
Love facial hair, where as my partner wants his gone completely, and It looks great on him.

[NatalieGirl]

I have never been with a man but have been hit on a couple times while dressed.

Would love to date a man, and perhaps take it a step further.

[Jacqueline Vasquez]

hey nataliegirl, u should try it. its nice and FUN to "experience everything" that GGs do!:daydreaming:

[Kristi Moore]

Tough finding the right one and being safe etc, though as of late the desire has become stronger and stronger. Odd when dressed all men and when not all woman as far as atttraction, thank god for my psychologist!!! LOL

[ReineD]

There are lots of respondents to this thread who say the desires keep getting stronger and they would be interested in being with men. I'd love to know how many would still feel the same way after having given it a go.

[JulieK1980]

There are lots of respondents to this thread who say the desires keep getting stronger and they would be interested in being with men. I'd love to know how many would still feel the same way after having given it a go.


The first time I ever did, the guilt and shame was like a punch in the gut. I'm actually very surprised I was able to come to grips with it. I'd be willing to bet, many would try it, and never do it again. Of course then there are others that realize we like it..... ;)

[ReineD]

I agree with you. Sometimes the fantasies are a lot more fun than the reality. :straightface:

[CD Jane]

I would be more intrested in the sex. I have thought about it for a long time. While I would like to give it a try, one of us need to be wearing some panties and lipstick

[Barbara Dugan]

There are lots of respondents to this thread who say the desires keep getting stronger and they would be interested in being with men. I'd love to know how many would still feel the same way after having given it a go.

I still have the same desire to being with men but is kind of different now before It was more anything goes and live the fantasy..now I want to connect on a more intimate and emotional way. I understand that is more complicated now because most men just want unattached sex but I will keep looking:hugs:

[JulieK1980]

I agree with you. Sometimes the fantasies are a lot more fun than the reality. :straightface:

So very, very true!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The first time I ever did, the guilt and shame was like a punch in the gut. I'm actually very surprised I was able to come to grips with it. I'd be willing to bet, many would try it, and never do it again. Of course then there are others that realize we like it..... ;)

This is a really interesting observation.....

having guilt and shame about trying it are a different thing than not doing it because its not part of your sexuality...

getting comfortable with a lover can be a long learning process..think of being a young kid...its not like the first kiss/grope/lick is easy for everyone

if the guilt and shame is what is stopping you, that doesnt mean you wouldnt enjoy it if you let go and trusted your own sexuality and instincts..

there is so much denial its hard to get through it...feeling like you are just like everybody else is a great way to get comfortable with yourself and to enjoy doing new things...many of us don't enjoy that blessing

[kellycan27]

Of course then there are others that realize we like it..... ;)

Yes, some of the lucky ones :heehee:

[JulieK1980]

Yes, some of the lucky ones :heehee:

I definitely agree with that! :heehee:

[jo_ann]

I have been with another crossdresser, don't know if I could do a "straight" guy, in the respect that he doesn't dress but likes guys dressed up as girls. And it's not because I think I'm skipping the "gay" label if the guy is dressed like a girl. Call me bi if you want, I find that another crossdresser understands more where I'm coming from, a guy has no clue what I'm thinking about. Plus I feel like if I were with a guy, it would just be sort of awkward, where with a crossdresser at least we'd have something to talk about.

That's not to say I wouldn't totally rule out a "straight" guy, many times I've become really close friends with guys because of common interests, and I sometimes think about what it would be like to take it one step further.

[jayme357]

The ultimate sense of being a female is to have experienced the affection of a true gentleman. I'm talking about someone that meets you at the door with a warm hug and a sensuous kiss. One who brings a really fine bottle of wine and who is sensitive to your feelngs. A person who is patient and who waits until you have relaxed and feeling safe and valued. I have been fortunate to have enjoyed such a man, and although I would never have described myself as other than pure heterosexual I would not trade that experience for anything I have ever done as a crossdresserouI have truly been spoiled! And I love it!

[fallen_rayne]

I certainly wouldn't mind being with a guy while being CD'ed. The only thing that I would be nervous about is them finding out. Unless of course you go out with a guy who knows, that's just different. A classic date would be nice, but I'm an old fashioned kinda girl. :heehee::daydreaming:

~Jamie~

[monica.missil]

The ultimate sense of being a female is to have experienced the affection of a true gentleman. I'm talking about someone that meets you at the door with a warm hug and a sensuous kiss. One who brings a really fine bottle of wine and who is sensitive to your feelngs. A person who is patient and who waits until you have relaxed and feeling safe and valued. I have been fortunate to have enjoyed such a man, and although I would never have described myself as other than pure heterosexual I would not trade that experience for anything I have ever done as a crossdresserouI have truly been spoiled! And I love it!

It sounds like your experience was perfect. My experience with men has only been getting want they want and off they go. I think that this has been my fault in wanting to have the experience and settling for something less than it can really be.

[Madilyn A.]

I have always been straight, althought the thought of being with some CDs has been very tempting. Lately, I have even thought of being a weekend housewife for someone and engaging in everything that would entail.

[Rachael502]

I would love to be with a nice sexy guy, but omg the attitudes of males out there! But that won't stop me from searching!:battingeyelashes:

[Terri Semes]

That was my experience too , they get what they want and then you never see them again.

[kellycan27]

That was my experience too , they get what they want and then you never see them again.

They get what you let them get.. and then you never see them again. When I was dating I was the one who decided if I wanted to have sex or not. They may have had a good game, but unless I wanted it.. not gonna happen. But when it did... I let them think it was their idea. As i stated in another dating thread.... The ones who are interested will come back even after you deny them a few times, the ones who were just looking for sex will fade away.
Come on ladies, this is basic "girl 101" :heehee: If you were out looking for sex, and got sex.. it's a draw! (you.. being used in the general sense , not you personally Terri) lol

Kel

[FemmeElastique]

Yes Yes Yes! I would totally want to date a guy that likes my CDing. It would turn me on to be treated like a woman all the time :-)

[tammygirl79]

I have dated and shared intimacy with a couple of males in the past, and enjoyed it very much. Though as far as a seriouse commited relationship goes....I would only be with a woman.

[Chrissi]

They get what you let them get.. and then you never see them again. When I was dating I was the one who decided if I wanted to have sex or not. They may have had a good game, but unless I wanted it.. not gonna happen. But when it did... I let them think it was their idea. As i stated in another dating thread.... The ones who are interested will come back even after you deny them a few times, the ones who were just looking for sex will fade away.
Come on ladies, this is basic "girl 101" :heehee: If you were out looking for sex, and got sex.. it's a draw! (you.. being used in the general sense , not you personally Terri) lol

Kel

Guys are no different with other guys, and it can hurt (the emotions) there too.

I have yet to CD and date a guy. I would like to go out, at least see what it is like. But I do know for sure, that whether in guy mode or en femme, I would only date or want to be with another man. Like some in here, I have been out for a number of years in various degree as a gay man, and have never, not once had a sexual attraction for another woman, since my earliest feelings.


Chrissy

[Krissie1962]

that is who I am .A women.if it takes a man to say sweet things to me "Krissie " I love your skirt, dont be shy may I kiss you? make me feel like the women I am ,then yes I have thought about a man treating me as a women.however........ ?:o

[Cheryl T]

I'm not really interested in men per se...
I would like to experience other aspects though. Would be nice to go out on a date for dinner and dancing. Just being treated as a woman in that type of situation would be nice.

[Krissie1962]

mayby . date a cd . in private we could be girls together. out I need to be the female .:daydreaming:

[cdliz15]

I don't want to be intimate with a man. But I have thought about being on a date with one. I think it would feel so girly to be escorted on a romantic date by a handsome gentleman. hehe

[Karentv]

Hi Girls,
I class myself as bisexual and find that when in drab I don't fancy men at all really although I have had a few encounters. However, when dressed as Karen I long to go out and be accepted and wanted as any proper girl would want to be by a man.
One of my main fantasies actually is to go out and have a really good night with a fella and then see where it leads but as yet I simply don't have that kind of confidence or courage.
When in drab I totally love my girls...all those soft squishy bits and interesting curves lol!!
Karen xxxx

[reina1321]

it depends on if the man was ftm for me because i'm also lesbian

[ReineD]

Oh reina ... you need to know that FtMs are NOT women, so if you identify as femme and you are attracted to a transman, it is an insult if you consider yourself to be a lesbian with him. Such a union would be hetero.

[NiCo]

it depends on if the man was ftm for me because i'm also lesbian


Oh reina ... you need to know that FtMs are NOT women, so if you identify as femme and you are attracted to a transman, it is an insult if you consider yourself to be a lesbian with him. Such a union would be hetero.

Yes, it is offensive, also a reason why I dislike lesbian women…[B]NO [/I]offence]. :doh:

It about time you do some research, like everyone else has to do cause if you said that to a transman's face you could get hurt. J/S. Or at leats I know if it was me, I wouldn't let them get away with it.

[Facts right = no problems] Simple.

[Edit: I’m getting SICK of this! Coming into almost every thread just to make sure people aren't being offensive against us. Just f*cking ban me for life already I’ve had enough of it!]

[Pythos]

I am definitely a lesbian :)

I like women pure and simple.

I couldn't even think of sexual realations with Mana, even when in his really feminine looking outfits.

On that note, I would "date" a good looking TG, TS, or CD, IF they allowed me to CD, or go androgynous as well.

I dream of being able to date a girl wearing or looking whatever I would like, and her liking it.

[CdChloe]

How many of us think about being with a guy while crossdressing?

I've thought about it a bit to be honest and I would, provided my wife could be there as a safety net should I decide I'm not ready for it, wouldn't mind the naughty stuff, but once again my wife would need to be involved (I need someone to teach me hehe)

[Tina P Hose]

The only way that i would date a man is IF he were another CD. and then let the chips fall where the may.

[Jo_Larens]

But there is no way that i would date a man. I could probly date a transman or a transwoman but overall the male physique is utterly unattractive to me. Something about musclebound stud just mskes me shudder. While I would LOVE to be treated as a woman deserves, I would much rather it come from a genetic female or at least someone who acts or thinks like a woman. No guy I have ever known except for my dear friend JB, who is in Iraq right now, is a true gentleman. The rest are just boys or horndogs

[faltenrock]

Not at all. I've met a few guys on parties or in pubs who wanted to talk or dance with me. They all asked what I would do later, where I stay and all that. I feel very uncomfortable talking to guys, I love woman. I'ld rather meet a female and spend an evening or a full days with her en femme. I would love to go shopping with a gf, that would be so wonderful.
Dating a women when dressed would be the best I can imagine.

[legz31]

I can't believe this thread is still goin strong :thumbsup: It must be a record or something if someone keeps score of such things. Where is that hot girl who had tallied up the votes, back in december!?! :)

[KendraGreen]

Being with a man was far from my mind when I began dressing. I still prefer women, but when I am with a man it gives me the complete feeling of being a woman. I do prefer to play with other CDs but when dressed I do find men and their anatomy very desirable.

[sherri]

I have even thought of being a weekend housewife for someone and engaging in everything that would entail. I agree with you, this seems like a good scenario for a less than full-time TG. I daydream about it often. Kinda hard to find though. Most guys lack the courage for even that.


They get what you let them get.. and then you never see them again. When I was dating I was the one who decided if I wanted to have sex or not. They may have had a good game, but unless I wanted it.. not gonna happen. But when it did... I let them think it was their idea. As i stated in another dating thread.... The ones who are interested will come back even after you deny them a few times, the ones who were just looking for sex will fade away.
Come on ladies, this is basic "girl 101" :heehee: If you were out looking for sex, and got sex.. it's a draw! (you.. being used in the general sense , not you personally Terri) lol

KelVery good advice. It's kinda hard to follow when your thermostat runs as hot as mine usually does. You hope that you can act on your desires spontaneously and still keep the guy coming back. That's not how most guys tick, however, plus there seems to be a general assumption that CDs/TGs are just out for sex, too. They really, really don't get that they're dealing with a feminine person, and they approach you with a crudeness and lack of sensitivity they would never dream of trying with a GG. Bottom line is, if you want sex but want something more too, you gotta curb your enthusiasm and play the game.

[kellycan27]

Very good advice. It's kinda hard to follow when your thermostat runs as hot as mine usually does. You hope that you can act on your desires spontaneously and still keep the guy coming back. That's not how most guys tick, however, plus there seems to be a general assumption that CDs/TGs are just out for sex, too. They really, really don't get that they're dealing with a feminine person, and they approach you with a crudeness and lack of sensitivity they would never dream of trying with a GG. Bottom line is, if you want sex but want something more too, you gotta curb your enthusiasm and
play the game.


Whether or not it's the gentleman or the rude crude dude we have the final say as to whether we are going to let him bed us. If you meet someone and end up in the sack with them the first night.. be prepared to never see him again, but don't beat him up because you were a willing participant.Guys might assume that because we are TG that it's all about sex, but we have the power to dispel that notion before too much time has passed. If your hormones were raging and you give it up...own it! If you are looking for more than just sex you might want to be a bit more circumspect in how you act.
Even then it's a crap shoot. WE just need to keep things in the proper prospective. I have found that the best way to keep them coming back is to keep them off balance.. keep them hungry so to speak. If you give up the prize.. what's the incentive other than for maybe another shot at you? In high school the "easy" girls might have been popular, but who wanted to call them their G/F? :heehee:
Yup you def have to play the game.. but you can make the rules.:2c:

kel

[ReineD]

Where is that hot girl who had tallied up the votes, back in december!?! :)

That would be me (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1990994&postcount=165). I've never had anyone refer to me as 'that hot girl' though. I like it! lol



I honestly since think over the course of this thread, I have personally changed regarding this matter. - just to clarify: I dont mean because of this thread -

But seriously, I've also noticed that attitudes about dating men increase over time and I've often wondered if this is because the fantasy builds up to a fevered pitch? Does sexual orientation really change (providing a TG is not on hormones), or would the reality of having sex with a guy severely disappoint if it were experienced in RL?

Or .. the big question: For those who are discovering an increasing desire for men, are they slowly getting out of denial over always having been homosexual? Have their sexual experiences with GGs been fulfilling all along or were these TGs just going through the motions because they felt they had to? I'm not saying this is the case but the questions do come to mind.

[sherri]

or would the reality of having sex with a guy severely disappoint if it were experienced in RL?I don't know if the reality of sex with a guy would disappoint, but the reality of dealing with guys might. I sometimes smile, not in a derogatory or superior way, when I listen to someone mulling over the question of dating guys, as if it is all up to her to simply decide to say yes and voila, Prince Charming comes riding in. Uh, not.


Or .. the big question: For those who are discovering an increasing desire for men, are they slowly getting out of denial over always having been homosexual? Have their sexual experiences with GGs been fulfilling all along or were these TGs just going through the motions because they felt they had to? I'm not saying this is the case but the questions do come to mind.I don't think -- in fact I know -- I wasn't just going through the motions with GGs, but I now believe the latent interest in sex with men was always there too. I suspect this true for many mtf TGs, whether they realize it or not. I told someone, a gay guy, recently that the best way I knew how to explain my bisexuality is that GGs are my native tongue and guys are my second language. :)