Still a long long way to go

[natasha]

I had a Board of Director insurance meeting today (liability insurance no less) to discuss our premiums for the upcoming year (ouch). After the meeting and lunch the small talk started and low and behold one of the representatives (human resource director!!) starts explaining the difficulties she is having with a certain employee and fellow employees over the use of the work bathroom. I never liked this woman anyway, but she then starts making fun of employee who is obviously transitioning!!! I could'nt believe what I was hearing. Not only was she downgrading this courageous(sp) individual, but all of the others started making snyde comments and disgusting jokes. All of these people are "professionals" (human resources, finance directors, and other managers). As much as I wanted to fire back at this crude/rude/ and downright wrong conversation I calmly sat at the table wondering what the heck is wrong with society!!! Yes, human resource directors!!!! Sitting there with my now shoulder length hair, estrogen coursing through my body made me want to just scream!!!! I wont even mention the chastising I took for my long hair by these supposed properly groomed professional hynie kissing, hypocritical low lifes.

Society has a long long way to go!!!! (Somehow I feel better now)

[Melody Moore]

Oh dear - I would have recorded that crap & been talking to the girl involved & a lawyer because
there is massive lawsuit right there. I know I sound like a vindictive b!tch in saying that, but it's
the only way these bigoted transphobes will learn. Hit them in the hip pocket where it really hurts.

[Katesback]

This is one of the reasons I say that getting through the ambigious early stage of transition where you look different and often have not learned to keep your mouth shut is really important. It also illustrates the importance of moving on to a different job and hopefully place to live once you get past that phase. People really do NOT re-program and there is something priceless about starting a job and moving to a place where people NEVER knew the person before transiton.

Katie

[natasha]

It took all my energy to remain calm, believe me. Fortunately there were no names mentioned, but I can only imagine what this supposed professional says in other surroundings. I (and all of us) are fully aware of society's inability to accept those who do not fit into strict gender roles, but this person is the Human Resource director for the place she works. Someone who should know the inate responsibility that this job holds. Whomever the person is that is transitioning has far more courage than I think I could ever muster, that alone should garner respect above all. Situations similar to this is one of the main reasons most of us deny ourselves of becoming who we really are. It is a total shame, but I guess things are still better than they were even 10 years ago. Hopefully the day will come when people are more accepting. Unfortunatley, I will probably be flower food by that time.

[Sharon]

You can cause (most) people to watch what they say in your presence when you transition, but, as Kate wrote, you can't erase their memories or prejudices. The fact that such ignorance was so zealously discussed is disheartening to say the least, but at least you now know what you face. It really takes courage for most of us to proceed with transitioning.

Good luck, Natasha.

[Jorja]

Now imaging that, professional people showing just how uneducated and bigoted they really are. You should have brought them to task right then and there. Not because you are in transition yourself but because they were breaking the diversity laws and being unprofessional. I really don't think the GM and the president of the company would appricate their actions.

[Hope]

I know the area you live in. I used to live there too. I used to drive Massbach road at 70 - because I could. And so I understand the culture and the mindset of the people you are dealing with. We both know that for the most part these are not progressive, tolerant, loving people.

But if you want society to change - you have to be the agent of that change.

I don't expect anyone to stand up and out themselves when they are not ready - but when we sit quietly and allow bigotry to rage around us without saying something about it - we become complicit in it. I know that I have felt shame and frustration when I have been in similar situations to what you describe, and behaved in a way similar to what you describe. Those were not my greatest moments. I imagine you might feel similarly - so please understand my goal here is not to make you feel worse about yourself. Rather my goal is to give you a few tools to use in the future.

One way to diffuse a situation like this without outing yourself is to ask questions. Make the bigots explain to you that they are bigots - and do it until even they realize what they are doing. In the situation you described it might have been easy to say "Is this something you feel you should be talking about in this manner and in this place?" or "I'm surprised your employer doesn't require you to keep work place issues like this confidential?" or "Is it really appropriate for you to be sharing this information with us?" Instant wet blanket on the conversation. When the HR person back-peddles and says "well no, I suppose not, but it is such a funny story I had to tell someone!" You ask "I don't see why you have to tell any one... or for that matter I don't see what is funny about a situation that has obviously caused a fair amount of discomfort for a variety of people in your workplace?"

Another sort of thing you can do is ask a person to explain why a joke is funny. If you find someone making a joke about a guy in a dress, when they get to the punch-line and start laughing - look confused and ask "I don't get it... what is so funny?" Make the bigot explain to why a guy in a dress is funny. I have $50 that says he can't do it. Because the joke and the laughter is a way to manage the nervous energy created by gender non-conforming people... not a funny joke. There are healthier ways to manage that energy, and talking about and naming people's fears is a way to achieve that. This works well for stereotype jokes of all kinds - make the bigot explain to why he thinks black people are lazy, or why he thinks first nations are drunks, or why women are bad drivers. "I don't get it" is one of the most powerful weapons in the arsenal against bigoted jokes.

Another ploy is to sort of channel the person being taunted. "You know it seems to me that anyone willing to go through that sort of struggle, and endure this sort of taunting must be really hurting. I don't think people need to be kicked when they are down, and I am not really comfortable with hearing these sort of comments behind someone else's back. It is definitely not nice behavior and it is not the sort of thing my mother taught me to be a part of." If you can say that - you will have sucked the air out of the room - but you will not have outed yourself - just appealed to basic human decency.

If you want to be really bold - stand up for the girl in question, very directly. When you hear the joke about how bad she looks in her dress, you simply reply "I saw her out in that dress at the Piggly Wiggly, and I thought she looked very nice. I don't want to hear another word about it."

You are not going to change anyone's mind, but you will MAKE them think about what they are doing and saying. I decided that in Jo Davies county - that was a win.

[Jay Cee]

...One way to diffuse a situation like this without outing yourself is to ask questions. Make the bigots explain to you that they are bigots - and do it until even they realize what they are doing. In the situation you described it might have been easy to say "Is this something you feel you should be talking about in this manner and in this place?" or "I'm surprised your employer doesn't require you to keep work place issues like this confidential?" or "Is it really appropriate for you to be sharing this information with us?" Instant wet blanket on the conversation. When the HR person back-peddles and says "well no, I suppose not, but it is such a funny story I had to tell someone!" You ask "I don't see why you have to tell any one... or for that matter I don't see what is funny about a situation that has obviously caused a fair amount of discomfort for a variety of people in your workplace?"

Another sort of thing you can do is ask a person to explain why a joke is funny. If you find someone making a joke about a guy in a dress, when they get to the punch-line and start laughing - look confused and ask "I don't get it... what is so funny?" Make the bigot explain to why a guy in a dress is funny. I have $50 that says he can't do it. Because the joke and the laughter is a way to manage the nervous energy created by gender non-conforming people... not a funny joke. There are healthier ways to manage that energy, and talking about and naming people's fears is a way to achieve that. This works well for stereotype jokes of all kinds - make the bigot explain to why he thinks black people are lazy, or why he thinks first nations are drunks, or why women are bad drivers. "I don't get it" is one of the most powerful weapons in the arsenal against bigoted jokes.

Another ploy is to sort of channel the person being taunted. "You know it seems to me that anyone willing to go through that sort of struggle, and endure this sort of taunting must be really hurting. I don't think people need to be kicked when they are down, and I am not really comfortable with hearing these sort of comments behind someone else's back. It is definitely not nice behavior and it is not the sort of thing my mother taught me to be a part of." If you can say that - you will have sucked the air out of the room - but you will not have outed yourself - just appealed to basic human decency.

If you want to be really bold - stand up for the girl in question, very directly. When you hear the joke about how bad she looks in her dress, you simply reply "I saw her out in that dress at the Piggly Wiggly, and I thought she looked very nice. I don't want to hear another word about it."...

I couldn't have said it better myself. Well written, Hope!

I'm sorry you had to hear all that b.s., Natasha. Don't get discouraged, though. Society is slowly moving forward in matters like this.

[Sara Jessica]

This is really unfortunate. Consider the role of HR, particularly for major corporations across this nation, and the information they are privy to...not to mention the things that are disclosed to them under a reasonable expectation of confidentiality. Despite the fact these people are human beings, subject to their own world view (read prejudices if you will), they have an obligation not to let that color their actions in doing the right thing for the company's employee.

In this example, just imagine the lack of support coming from HR as filtered down when it comes to the issues which arise in the field. I feel for the person who is transitioning under such a scenario.


It also illustrates the importance of moving on to a different job and hopefully place to live once you get past that phase. People really do NOT re-program and there is something priceless about starting a job and moving to a place where people NEVER knew the person before transiton.

This is an unfortunate reality that must be considered, one which often results in destruction of career despite best efforts to make things work.

If someone is truly happy and successful in their field and are able to make the transition on the job, that is a huge step for them and represents a small step for those who might come after her. Sure, there's no hope for stealth in staying put but that is an acceptable trade-off, why should we have to run from our livelihoods in order to be true to ourselves?

[Michelle.M]

Consider the role of HR, particularly for major corporations across this nation, and the information they are privy to...not to mention the things that are disclosed to them under a reasonable expectation of confidentiality.

This, and Melody's remarks make me wonder what your company's HR diversity policies say. If your company's diversity policies affirm the dignity of all employees (whether they specifically include transgender employees or not) you may have a lawsuit in the making here, or at least a breach of trust caused by the public comments made by these managers. If they specifically address diversity policies this is even more distasteful and possibly grounds for their termination.

In my organization we do have a variety of equal opportunity policies and conduct regular training to try and cultivate a supportive and safe workplace. Every single employee knows they have the right, even the responsibility, to challenge others when they openly make such comments by reminding them that such comments are not supported by our organization's values and are not acceptable. Repeat offenders are formally counseled, and woe be unto the supervisor who fails to address this promptly and decisively.

To hear managers do this is especially disgusting, as these are the people who are charged with guiding the rest of the team on to higher levels of cohesiveness and productivity. Things like this are not only distasteful or illegal. The are regressive and will lead to high employee turnover and a reduced bottom line.

Study after study has shown that when a formerly successful company fails it's usually not due to market forces (assuming there is still a market for their product), but rather that ship sinks because of internal decay. When I see things like this happening I start looking at the company's competition to see how they do business, because they will be the ones who ultimately take this company's business away from them when they crumble from within.

Regressive personnel policies are a sign of internal decay, and if not addressed in a timely manner the company is doomed.

[Sara Jessica]

Consider the role of HR, particularly for major corporations across this nation, and the information they are privy to...not to mention the things that are disclosed to them under a reasonable expectation of confidentiality.


This, and Melody's remarks make me wonder what your company's HR diversity policies say.


Good points Michelle but I'd say that the best written diversity policy will collapse if those who are charged to implement it fail. In the example we are given, the failure is all too clear.

[Michelle.M]

Good points Michelle but I'd say that the best written diversity policy will collapse if those who are charged to implement it fail. In the example we are given, the failure is all too clear.

My point exactly. Companies that say they have good diversity policies need to walk their talk.

[Jenny Doolittle]

I dont mean to be critical, but doesn't it fall on us as not only a person in transition or as a CD, but also as a professional in the said meeting to speak up about how wrong these associates were in their conversations and jokes?

If we expect change in society we may have to be the first to stand up for what is right.

[arbon]

A trans woman moved to my town (think very small town) a little over a year ago and it stirred some nasty talk that I got to hear way to much of (she was from the area but had moved for a few years in which time she transitioned so there was no stealth when she came back). What timing! I was on the path and thinking I was going to be the first poor stupid soul to try to transition here. But then there she is and I was witnessing the reaction to her right as I was starting to come out more.

It was weird. It does not make you feel very good when you are going down that path to hear others talk like that. Your thinking well I am going to be the other freak they can all talk about.

Then I heard stuff about me even though most did not know it was about me they were talking about - the rumor was that there was another one of "them" that was going to come out soon. My wifes boss warned my wife about this other "it" without realizing that the rumor was about her husband! Crazy. It was almost like a contest to figure out who it was. Hurt my wife incredibly bad. But to her bosses credit he later apologized to my wife for his transphobic comments when my transition became more widely known in the community.

Despite all that it really was not as bad as I imagined it would be. I could imagine some pretty bad stuff - like being openly taunted all the time, having rocks thrown at ya or even chased down the street by a mob :-0 . And even though there was a lot of negative talk about this other trans woman it was also very encouraging to see a lot of women and a few men stand up for her. Likewise a lot of people have also stood up for me to.

Though I am sure I get talked about a lot behind my back (and sometimes I catch people laughing) I think to that a lot of people found themselves questioning there ideas / beliefs about trans people. It has really challenged them it a lot of ways rethink things and I think down the road it will keep getting easier for people to come out and they wont have to face as much of this crap.

The topic reminded me of all this. What that is like to listen to what people can say about us behind our backs.

As much room as there is still for acceptance in this society it has come a very long, long way for the better. I mean when you think about it it really was not that long ago when we could be thrown in jail for wearing to many articles of clothing of the opposite sex or be thrown in psych ward for a bit of elctro shock therapy.

Thanks for the topic

[Michelle.M]

I dont mean to be critical, but doesn't it fall on us as not only a person in transition or as a CD, but also as a professional in the said meeting to speak up about how wrong these associates were in their conversations and jokes?

If we expect change in society we may have to be the first to stand up for what is right.

Yes! This stuff continues because nobody is willing to say "Hey, that's wrong! This is a co-worker, a valued employee and a fellow human being with dignity. When you do this you devalue her, the organization and most of all yourself."

Will it work? Maybe not, but at least we reestablish a standard of decent behavior. Kind of hard to argue with that.

[Melody Moore]

I am about to start doing some work with the Salvation Army & I was reading through the paperwork earlier & here
is something I found very relevant & interesting in the ETHICAL BEHAVIOURAL STANDARDS of their staff polices This
is their own way of wording it, using Biblical scripture so the staff understand this so not to violate any laws in Equal
Employment Opportunities, Anti-discrimination or Human Rights. And it reads....


THE HISTORICAL & BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

A call to the gospel is a call to the wholeness and to a lifestyle which promotes wholeness.
The gospel recognises the dignity of human beings made in the image of God and requires
us to respect the integrity and freedom of all human beings.

Human Sexuality s a God-given gift, capable of wholesome expression, but also abuse. The
expression of any sexual behaviour, either speech or action, that denies human dignity, or
humiliates, degrades, overpowers, dominates or violates another is an offence to the gospel
and opposed to the lifestyle it promotes Instead the gospel calls us to look after the interests
of others rather than our own. (Phil. 2:4), to do good to all (1 Thess. 5:15b), to respect
everyone (1 Peter 2:17), and even to avoid the kind of thoughts that would lead to offensive
speech or action (Matt: 5:27-30).I think this human resources director & the other finance directors & managers need to re-examine themselves
and take a leaf out of the Salvation Army's book before they start passing judgement on others because they
are all way out of line. Finally I really do think this is a good discussion & there is a lot of valuable information
here that can go along way towards culling this type of ignorance & bigotry in the work place.

[Hope]

I have come to the conclusion recently that rural America is not a place to live - much less a place to transition. Every little town wants to recreate Mayberry and they can have it. Right down to the white-bread.


And even though there was a lot of negative talk about this other trans woman it was also very encouraging to see a lot of women and a few men stand up for her.

I hope that you were among their number?


Though I am sure I get talked about a lot behind my back (and sometimes I catch people laughing) I think to that a lot of people found themselves questioning there ideas / beliefs about trans people. It has really challenged them it a lot of ways rethink things and I think down the road it will keep getting easier for people to come out and they wont have to face as much of this crap.

The topic reminded me of all this. What that is like to listen to what people can say about us behind our backs.

I have come to the conclusion recently that most of the people laughing are laughing because they don't know how else to respond and they are burning off nervous energy. I can tolerate that. The laughs, the giggles, the double takes don't bother me so much. Those folks are the ones who are reach-able. Those are the ones who are probably having their first encounter with a trans-person and I try to always make that encounter a positive one. Even when they are laughing at me.

If it helps, remember the old punk quote "You laugh at me because I am different. I laugh at you because you are all the same." It has never been my favorite quote as it displays an air of superiority that isn't particularly helpful - but it sometimes helps me keep from lashing out. Well that and spiro.

The people that bother me are the angry cowards, the bullies, the people that make me feel like I need to carry pepper spray.

If you see me and you giggle, or even point, you will likely get a smile in return. Lots of times those smiles are genuine as I think "I just made that person's world bigger!" and that is a pretty awesome power to wield simply by existing. If you ask nicely I am usually willing to even pose for a picture. If however, you follow me into the ladies room, stand in the corner and spy on me while I pee, and then shout "Men belong in the men's room" as you scurry out before I leave the stall (as happened to me a few weeks ago) you better be ready to explain yourself when I catch up to you. And I am going to look for you.

[natasha]

While this isn't Mayberry, its close enough. I make that statement because I wasn't talking about a corporation, but rather local government (aka small town politics) the kind of situation where most people know most people. While I did get the feeling that the HR director was trying to deal with the person transitioning properly, she had no right to make disperiging comments on the matter. You don't know how many times I thought about pulling a cpl. Klinger on these people just to knock them all back on their heels...........but the mortgage has to be paid, kids college kinda slaps reallity up side your head.

[Melody Moore]

You don't know how many times I thought about pulling a cpl. Klinger on these people just to knock them all
back on their heels...........but the mortgage has to be paid, kids college kinda slaps reallity up side your head.

What are they going to do to you Natasha? Fire you & give you an early retirement & set you & your family up for life? :heehee:

See: http://www.chicagoemploymentlawyer.net/GenderDiscrimination.html


Sex & Gender Discrimination: Employers are forbidden from making decisions regarding hiring, promotion, demotion, termination, compensation, job training, or other terms and conditions of employment based on the employee’s sex or gender, including pregnancy. In other words, employers are forbidden from treating employees less favorably because of their sex or gender. Employers are also forbidden from creating a hostile work environment because of an employees sex/gender. Sex-based discrimination is prohibited by federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964; the Pregnancy Discrimination Act; and the Equal Pay Act), state law (the Illinois Human Rights Act), and local ordinances. Sexual harassment, pregnancy discrimination, and pay discrimination are forms of sex/gender discrimination.
Sexual Orientation Discrimination: The Illinois Human Rights Act, 775 ILCS 5/1, prohibits employers from discriminating against employees on the basis of sexual orientation. The Act defines sexual orientation as “actual or perceived heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, or gender‑related identity, whether or not traditionally associated with the person’s designated sex at birth.”