Problem

[Krisi]

For the second time in a few years, I find I have to do business with a person that I can't figure out if it's a "he" or a "she". The voice is higher pitched than a typical male but the body is short and not at all masculine or feminine. The hands look a bit masculine but the type of work the person does would "defeminize" hands over time. The hair could be either way. This person gave me their business card (I thought that might be the giveaway) but the name on the card is "E. Smith" (not really smith). I don't know if the "E" stands for Eleanor or Edward. People call the person "E".

This isn't a one time deal. it could last for years so I don't want to say anything insulting. Eventually I'll be able to ask the other customers but it would be easier if I knew up front.

My wife couldn't figure it out either.

What to do?

[Ressie]

See if this person has a facebook account. You might get a clue if he/she does.

[Pat]

Why does it matter? Call them "E" and focus on the reason you're doing business. Or just amiably admit you don't know and ask. We retired folk get an out in that we can always blame our age for not being able to figure these things out. ;)

[Ariana225]

This person could possibly be non binary. It’s ok to not know. They might prefer neither he or she. Just treat them as a person and refer to them as the name they choose on their business card. They will correct you if they wish you to call them something else. I don’t know what else to tell you, just my best advise under your circumstance.

[NicoleScott]

Ask what the E stands for. Is E really your name or an initial?

Sometimes I wonder is such people are being intentionally vague, baiting others to ask something they can take offense to.

[Jaylyn]

Krisi I agree with Roberta just let them be who they want to be, isn't that the way we want to be treated? Sometimes I read post on here saying they think they saw another CDer, and think they want to talk to them. I say just say hi if they talk to you and carry on business as usual. We sometimes get over excited about things related to our CD'ing and want them to know we know what your doing. I've seen a guy in a dress before and he made eye contact with me in a mall once I smiled and just kept walking. That's his business not mine. That's the way I see it. If E is looking to visit then by all means visit with her/ him but I wouldn't be the one to start the conversation.

[Krisi]

A lot of people on this forum seem to be intentionally vague, at least in their clothing and shoes. And they brag about it here. The person made a point of being called "E". Name or initial, I don't know.

As for not knowing, that's a problem in real situations. Imagine this phone call:

Me: "Is E there?"

Person on the phone: "No"

Me: "When will ____ return?"

I can't say "he" and I can't say "she". It's pretty awkward to say "When will E return?" after I've just used his/her name in the conversation.

And no, you don't walk up to someone and ask them if they are male or female. At least where I live or have lived. Remember I said I would likely be doing business with this person for years and I don't want to start off on the wrong foot.

I should add that this person is in a traditionally male position but that doesn't really mean anything these days.

[CONSUELO]

I don't see what the problem is. Does it really matter that you know exactly the sex of the person? Perhaps they are truly androgynous. Why not just ask the person how they would like to be addressed?

[Princess Chantal]

I usually use the words “they” or “their” in those types of situations

*addition* Just like consuelo had just done

[Cheryl T]

Ask the person for their first name.

[Micki_Finn]

“They” “their” has become accepted gender neutral pronoun in a lot of style manuals if that helps at all. Or you could have a friend call and pretend to be a telemarketer asking for “Mr Smith” and see if they get corrected but that sounds a bit like the Lucy route.

[Stephanie47]

If you're going to have a business relationship with this person what form of payment is going to be used if the person is buying products or getting services from you? If you're really trying to vet the person try checking your governmental data bases for licenses, etc. Even if you find out the birth gender of the person is it his or her preferred gender? I'd be willing to bet the person has already confronted the effects of the confusion he or she receives in the course of his or her life. The person may be intentionally choosing to use "E" to gauge reactions of the people doing business with her, whether a buyer or seller.

[BillieS]

I can see it being a source of curiosity. But in the end, if it’s a business relationship does the person’s gender make a difference?

As Micki points out, “they” is a natural way to refer to E with other people.

[docrobbysherry]

Sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill to me, Krisi.

I had an apt. manager that presented as a woman but looked and sounded very masculine. I simply referred to her by her name. Never "he" or "she". It worked fine for over a year when she moved.

[Stephanie Julianna]

This reminds me of a recurring skit on SNL years ago called 'Androgenous Pat'. Just call this person 'E' until you get a hint if ever. I have to think he or she is laughing her or his head off in private.

[Ariana225]

If “E” is what they go by, then I’m pretty sure they don’t like their name and they’re trying to mask that name and possibly any gender associated by it. And when did it become socially unacceptable to say someone’s name in back to back sentences/questions?

Everyone, including you, on this forum gets to choose what they wish to go by. Sure it’s not necessarily a reality by what they/you go by... but we do it out of respect for each other as people. They gave you a business card that says E, go by that until they tell you otherwise out of respect.

I’m not trying to target you solely, I just think it’s a good lesion for all of us to respect one another as the human beings.

[Helen_Highwater]

You could wait and see which toilet they use..... err, that's not going to work either is it!

Being referred to by a single letter isn't that unique or strange. I knew someone who was always referred to as "H", short for Harry. Set aside the gender issue and simply ask as part of polite general chit chat.

[Sarah Doepner]

There are a lot of non-binary people who don't mind if you ask them what pronouns they prefer. It acknowledges their control over how they are perceived and can show you are supportive of their choice on how they present.

[AllieSF]

I like the approach to asking what the "E" stands for and then if the person is still vague ask which pronouns they prefer that you use. That is a fair, direct and honest question, especially if you preface your question based on "We most likely will be doing business together for a number of years into the future and you prefer to get it right now".

[Jenny22]

In the course of business conversation, tell E that you are completely accepting of LGBT people should that question ever arise. That might crack the door open a bit for further conversation.

[Pat]

Imagine this phone call:

Me: "Is E there?"

Person on the phone: "No"

Me: "When will ____ return?"

"they" -- when will they return? Totally correct English from the 14th century to present.

[DaisyLawrence]

"they" -- when will they return? Totally correct English from the 14th century to present.

Not in England it isn't.

Me: is John there?
Person on phone: No.
Me: when will they return?
Person on phone: Sorry? They? There is only one John here. I do not understand, sorry.

[Dana44]

I would just call he or she 'E' until you figure it out.

[Tracii G]

Pat wikipedia is not a good source for information when it comes to using the English language correctly.
Krisi I would just ask for the first name and say its for your records.

[Pat]

Pat wikipedia is not a good source for information when it comes to using the English language correctly.

Thanks for that tip. You should contact Shakespeare and see if he's aware of it. I'm sorry, if he WAS aware of it since he was writing in the fifteenth century --

"There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend"

"They" as an indefinite pronoun has been used for centuries. "Each person is responsible for their own notebook." is a construction that I've heard all my life though admittedly I don't go quite as far back as that.

If you like a more modern spin on it, try this: http://iheartsingularthey.com/



Me: is John there?
Person on phone: No.
Me: when will they return?
Person on phone: Sorry? They? There is only one John here. I do not understand, sorry.

I don't believe that's apples-to-apples in this case. John is a gendered name and of course you'd match the pronoun. "E" is not a gendered name so it's appropriate to use the indefinite pronoun unless you have personal knowledge of "E" which would allow you to use the pronoun they prefer. (See what I did there?)

But do you really think "When will they return" would totally flummox your imaginary conversational partner? I'm a little shocked.

[DaisyLawrence]

But do you really think "When will they return" would totally flummox your imaginary conversational partner? I'm a little shocked.

Some people yes. Maybe not in the states but here. I gendered it for explanation. The person on the phone presumably knows who 'E' is and therefore knows their gender so would be confused by the plural. Despite being the face of a company, we in the UK seem to think answering the phone is a meanial task for the lowest paid worker only and English as a first language no longer seems to be in the job description. Drives me mad but there we are. Don't be shocked.

[April Rose]

The simple answer to this is to ask what their pronouns are. They may be male bodied and prefer female pronouns, or vise-versa, or they may prefer gender neutral pronouns, like they, ze or xe. By simply asking about pronouns you avoid being intrusive, in a bodily way, and signal to them that you are sensitive enough to be concerned about their comfort. Even if they are conservative, at least they will not be offended.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Krisi :hugs:, That brings to mind the Crocodile Dundee movie and the scene in the bar. >Orchid ..o:daydreaming:

[NicoleScott]

E knows E presents an androgynous look so it should come as no surprise when people ask, just wanting to get it right in a professional setting. So ask in a tactful or more direct way. Using "they" and other neutral terms is silly, and no, not proper use of language, just a way to avoid the elephant in the room. Suck it up, ask, and the elephant goes away.

[Ariana225]

NicoleScott,

You do know some people think it is silly to call a biological man a “she” right? But out of respect for who that person is we respect them right? And call them the proper pronoun? It’s the same way with people that are non binary and wish not to be labeled as she or him. With all the struggles trans people go through, you think we would know better.

[~Renee~]

That's a tough one since we are conditioned to use gender specific pronouns automatically. Preventing an inadvertent error is going to be difficult. I would approach the situation by telling them you have never seen someone with a first name E, and ask if it is short for something. Maybe that leads to an obvious answer or conversation. If not you can say ok, E and hope as you learn about them they will divulge more.

[Jodie_Lynn]

If you are planning on doing long term business with E, you could just ask to see their Drivers License and say it's to verify their info for your billing records. Tell them you've had issues in the past. Gender is listed on the license, if you really, positively have to know their gender.

[NicoleScott]

Roberta, if I knew a biological man identifies as a woman, I would use "she". But in this case it's not known how E identifies. Maybe non-binary, maybe binary M or F. Calling E "they" is an assumption that E identifies as non-binary. It's really a silly game in which E sends mixed signals and others are supposed to guess right. Guess wrong and offend E. We have members here who present as women but are men and don't want to be called "she". But convention is to refer to people as they present, unless we know different. How do we know? We don't, so we need to find out, tactfully and respectfully, and avoid constantly walking on eggshells.

[docrobbysherry]

Unless you're getting engaged, why is calling a business associate E a problem? I don't see the problem! As in:

Hello is E there?

No, E isn't.
Ok, could u have E call me when E returns?:brolleyes:

[Marianne S]

"E" sounds masculine, among that subset of British speakers who drop their H's.

"'Ello, is 'e there?"

"No, 'e isn't."

"OK, could you 'ave 'im call me when 'e returns?"

Anyway I'm betting "E" stands for "Enigma."

"Hello, Enigma Smith speaking. How may I help you?..."

[Jodie_Lynn]

LOL 'is name is Edward Nigma = E. Nigma, AKA The Riddler

[Ressie]

So you'll be doing business with E. F. Hutton?


Total silence....

[Krisi]

Not in England it isn't.

Me: is John there?
Person on phone: No.
Me: when will they return?
Person on phone: Sorry? They? There is only one John here. I do not understand, sorry.

OK, one person understood my example. "They" is plural.

I can't ask for the name for my records because it is me who will be a customer of E's business, not the other way around. And this person made a point of being called "E" so it would seem pushy to ask what it stands for.

I didn't really expect any solutions by asking here, there's nothing reasonable that I hadn't thought of myself. My problem does highlight the difficulties created for other people when we try to hide our gender by dressing in an androgynous manner which many members here apparently do from time to time.

I'll just ask another customer when I get the chance but I may not get the chance before I have to deal with E again.

I don't care if "E" is male or female, I just don't want to embarrass myself by getting it wrong.

[Teresa]

Krisi,
I can see the point you are making, it's not a one off situation but ongoing so you are trying to be polite and not offend. If they aren't offended maybe the best solution is to politely ask their first name so if you have to Email or write to them you can address them correctly . Usually if I'm in that situation I will great them with a hand shake and tell them my first name, most people will respond in the same way .

[JenniferMBlack]

The simplest thing get a kid to meet her/ him and the child will most likely ask. No one takes offense if a child asks a question like are you a boy or a girl. They just answer and move on.

[jennifer0918]

Eeeeeeeee your in a pickle

[April Rose]

Believe it or not , or agree with it or not, there are non binary people who prefer "they" as their pronoun. I still maintain that simply asking what pronouns E prefers you will make the problem go away.

[BettyMorgan]

Why would this be considered a "problem "?
Call this person E. or use they if necessary. Despite the people arguing the grammar of the singular they, we have to accept that language changes and evolves. It's 2018 and language is changing to be more inclusive. Isn't that a good thing?

[Marianne S]

Gee, I'm wondering how they handle this in French, among other languages. They don't have the option of a genderless "they" or "them."

[Cassandra Lynn]

I'll leave the grammar issue alone, and for that matter, the how or what to do thing too.

But the frustration of satisfying our curious natures is something on my mind. I do know the truly right answer is to let it go, but gosh darn it's hard sometimes!:straightface:

I see this 20 something person at a convenience store fairly regularly and 'he' could be FtM and in transition, or 'she' could be MtF in transition or also quite possibly be non-binary and totally comfortable.

No positive tells in the hands, body shape, or voice and the name (on the name tag) is one of those new age ones that could go either way.
Whichever, this person is beautiful to look at, and the vibe (or aura, if you will) is just as lovely.......very friendly and positive and such.

While i'm curious and would love to know, I mostly just want to say......"your beautiful" and give him/her an encouraging and easy smile.
But in my mid-fifties and in a world where personal boundaries should be observed I worry about coming off wrong.

Best of luck........and for the record, in your situation I don't really see that asking (if done politely and carefully) would be that bad. It's not like walking up to a stranger in public and asking.

[Krisi]

See if this person has a facebook account. You might get a clue if he/she does.

BINGO!!! It was a long shot, but I found the person on Facebook. Very little information but the job, company and city were listed. And Facebook said "If you know E, send her a friend request."

So thank you Ressie.

- - - Updated - - -


Krisi,
I can see the point you are making, it's not a one off situation but ongoing so you are trying to be polite and not offend. If they aren't offended maybe the best solution is to politely ask their first name so if you have to Email or write to them you can address them correctly . Usually if I'm in that situation I will great them with a hand shake and tell them my first name, most people will respond in the same way .

She made a point of telling me her (I know now) name was "E". And that's how her business card reads. And her email is the company and position, not the name.

- - - Updated - - -


Why would this be considered a "problem "?
Call this person E. or use they if necessary. Despite the people arguing the grammar of the singular they, we have to accept that language changes and evolves. It's 2018 and language is changing to be more inclusive. Isn't that a good thing?
I thought I answered that in my example about the phone call.

[LilSissyStevie]

You could always try the 'ol "I'll let you see mine if you let me see yours." :heehee:

[Teresa]

Krisi,
Judging by your replies the person concerned appears to be determined to hide certain aspects of his/her life , I'm afraid if people won't divulge certain information they are going to be offended by someone , if not by you but possibly by another customer.

Do you know of any other customers who could feel in the same situation with " E" ?

[Leslie Langford]

Not in England it isn't.

Me: is John there?
Person on phone: No.
Me: when will they return?
Person on phone: Sorry? They? There is only one John here. I do not understand, sorry.

Hmmm...and yet, the Brits don't seem to have a problem with the "Royal We"...as in Queen Victoria's famous phrase "WE are not amused!", even when referring specifically to herself only.

Curious and curiouser...

[MarinaTwelve200]

Ask them how their name is spelled

[Krisi]

Krisi,
Judging by your replies the person concerned appears to be determined to hide certain aspects of his/her life , I'm afraid if people won't divulge certain information they are going to be offended by someone , if not by you but possibly by another customer.

Do you know of any other customers who could feel in the same situation with " E" ?

I'm not sure there is an intent to hide the name or certain aspects of the life. I know people who use something other than their given name with no intent to hide. A good friend goes by "Buddy". His real name is Robert. Another goes by "BJ". I've known him for 20 years and don't know his actual name.

Anyhow, as I posted a few posts ago it turns out "E" is female so that should do it for this thread. Also, from her Facebook page, I suspect she is of the lesbian persuasion. Not that it matters to me but that may explain her dress and mannerisms and my confusion.

[NicoleScott]

I'd rather ask if "E" is a man or woman than ask BJ why his buddies call him that. haha

[DaisyLawrence]

Hmmm...and yet, the Brits don't seem to have a problem with the "Royal We"...as in Queen Victoria's famous phrase "WE are not amused!", even when referring specifically to herself only.

Curious and curiouser...

Even way back in Victorian England no-one else would have used the 'royal we'. That is why the phrase is famous, obviously, and why we refer to it as 'the royal we'. Pat quoted the use of singular 'they' right back to Shakepseares' time but I can tell you one thing, if you give Shakespeare to the general English population today the vast majority can not understand a word of it, ask any schoolkid! :)

[ReineD]

I don't know if the "E" stands for Eleanor or Edward. People call the person "E".


There's your answer. E doesn't want to be placed in a gender box. I know a few people who feel the same way and who dress/appear purposely as gender neutral. Not many can get away with it and so E is very fortunate.

So just go ahead and refer to this person as E. You could ask E if the "E" stands for anything, but if the answer is that E prefers to be addressed as E, then you should respect this.

When we speak directly to a person, we use the 2nd person pronoun, namely "you". We don't use 3rd person pronouns (he or she), and so you needn't worry about it, since "you" is also gender neutral.

If you are talking to someone else about E whether E is present or not, then just substitute "E" whenever you might want to use a "he" or a "she". I do this and it hasn't proven difficult.

[Krisi]

Sigh! It's apparent that many folks were in such a hurry to respond that they didn't read my entire post. I tried to explain in another post how I could be put in the position of saying either "he" or "she" but again, some folks didn't read it either.

Anyway, the problem is solved thanks to the suggestion to see if E had a Facebook page, which she does.

[Leslie Langford]

Even way back in Victorian England no-one else would have used the 'royal we'. That is why the phrase is famous, obviously, and why we refer to it as 'the royal we'. Pat quoted the use of singular 'they' right back to Shakepseares' time but I can tell you one thing, if you give Shakespeare to the general English population today the vast majority can not understand a word of it, ask any schoolkid! :)

Whatever thou sayest... ;)

[Thumbelina]

If E. is all they give you, then just go with E. If they have a problem with that it's on them.

[Ressie]

Anyway, the problem is solved thanks to the suggestion to see if E had a Facebook page, which she does.

E is a she! I feel like a won a contest.

[jennifer0918]

Eeeeeeeeeeazy breeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzyyyy

[ReineD]

I tried to explain in another post how I could be put in the position of saying either "he" or "she" but again, some folks didn't read it either.

As I mentioned in my post #54, just replace "he" or "she" with E. Example: "I saw E yesterday and E told me to go ahead with it". I do this for my non-gendered friend and it really is the best of all solutions. It's not that hard.

[Krisi]

As I mentioned in my post #54, just replace "he" or "she" with E. Example: "I saw E yesterday and E told me to go ahead with it". I do this for my non-gendered friend and it really is the best of all solutions. It's not that hard.
Just say this to yourself and see how awkward it sounds. Apparently, you haven't read the entire thread because I used this example in post #7.

And as I posted in post #46, the issue has been resolved and I don't need any more "help".

Case closed.

[Pat]

If the OP says it's closed, it's closed.