Integration

In the recent thread I have given a lot of thought ....., Dannie speaks of keeping the same femme name as her male name in order to reflect that all aspects of her psyche are integrated. She does not feel she has separate male and female selves.

This gave rise to a few questions. :)

I'm sure there will be as many different viewpoints are there are people in this forum. But for now, I would prefer a CDer's outlook since I imagine TSs have no issues with integrating feminine personality traits, as obviously they are women to begin with.

In Dannie's thread, Satrana put it best:

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Originally Posted by Satrana

Containing feelings is a method typically deployed to limit psychological damage or constrain destructive behavior. By keeping our femininity separate from our male selves, CDs are acknowledging the two are incompatible or undesirable to be merged into one. In other words we are kowtowing to society's prejudices.

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I take Satrana's explanation to mean a CDer feels, while young, that he will be rejected by his family, peers, and society if he allows them to see his more feminine self, hence the compartmentalization. For now, I'll define femininity by describing myself as compared to the stereotypical male: being gentle and compassionate, having a lack of aggressiveness and a more cooperative approach to life than the traditional male competitiveness, feeling free to express emotion (in private .. mature GGs also do not like to cry in public), or perhaps having a lack of interest in traditional male pursuits preferring the gentler pastimes such as developing a taste for fine arts, dancing, music and the like. I read once a theory explaining that an urge to dress in a feminine manner develops as a way to provide an outlet for repressed femininity. I do not know if this is a valid explanation.

I do know many non-TG men who are not stereotypically macho. They are gentle and sensitive in a way that every woman dreams of finding in a partner. I've raised my sons to be like this. They are all very compassionate and nurturing. One of my sons is artistic. The other even loves to shop for clothes. The middle is sensitive to a degree I've seldom seen in a GG. I do not know if they display different, (more manly?) behaviors when they are in the company of other males alone, although I've noticed they were slightly more dogmatic in the presence of their males friends than in female company. I do know they are well liked by everyone and no one makes fun of them. My sons and the other gentle men I know seem to have integrated what might traditionally be defined as feminine personality traits. I do prefer to call these traits human, as I do not believe GGs have exclusive rights to them.

First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

Many thanks for your responses and for your continued patience with my questions.
:love:

Quite honestly Reine, the answer to most of it is programming. There are different types, programming by others (parents, friends, authority figures, etc.), programming by society in general as to what is "expected" of our gender and sex and self programming, which is based on self identity and entails what we "permit" ourselves to experience and demonstrate.

In the beginning we may compartmentalize, due to being unsure of or not having a handle on the feelings according to how we are "expected" to act. This actually places unnecessary strains and restrictions on us as individuals. A lot depends upon how our loved ones perceive who we are as well and this may indeed be a determining factor on how we, ourselves, handle the feelings.

A person who is really interested enough will put forth the effort to understand, balance and integrate the feelings to become more of a full spectrum person overall and can become more compassionate and empathetic with others. Fringe efforts do not work and can actually keep us on a see-saw for years , going back and forth with the feelings. That has been my experience anyway. In the long run we only get out what we put in and each individual must decide how much time and effort to expend on becoming genuine.:)

I actually hadn't yet read that other thread so I've done so retrospectively as this is a subject that touches on some of my own issues.

About a year or so ago I used to still refer to myself almost as two separate people; a male and female version as it were. My girlfriend of the time brought it to my attention one day and asked me to analyse myself, to decide whether I was in fact creating a separate persona or whether I was in fact talking about the same person. MissConstrued's comment in the other thread summed that up for me.

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There isn't anyone else inside my head -- it's just me.

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So rather than have a male name and a female name I decided instead to integrate the two and add a name to my given name, a name which represents me as a whole. Changing my name entirely would have been too much of a step for many people to accept I think so I opted for a slower integrated approach.

Which brings me to the questions at hand.

First question.

There is nothing at all wrong with males who like to go to the theatre, dance, paint and so forth. Personally I think that TG have an issue with this not because males in general can't do such things but because they are scared that their secret will be revealed if they do those things. Therefore they create an alternative them so that they can do those things in isolation from their usual lives. They might even have male friends who do those things but they are scared to do those things themselves because there is an underlying issue in their particular cases and they're afraid it will be revealed. I think that for a great many crossdressers, the activity is akin to a form of live action fantasy role play and that's why their "characters" are sometimes larger than life when compared to GG. An example might be swirling round the house in a ballgown when no GG would normally do so. I mean I spent yesterday wearing a simple black female tee shirt, camo short shorts (I have nice legs :p) and black Uggs, just mooching round the apartment, doing jobs, taking out the stuff for recycling (OMG outdoors where other people roam freely!), cooking, watching a DVD and general everyday stuff.

Second Question

I think that's a very astute observation ReineD. I think in the context of how you've defined it there may be less instances of crossdressing if males were generally more encouraged to express feminine emotions and attributes. I think the largest problem there is peer pressure though. I tend to hang out more with GG and I find they're extremely accepting and encouraging although I do have GM friends who are just as accepting. GM in my experience tend to encourage the group to express male emotions and attributes and often each member of the group ends up trying to be more male than the others ("holier-than-thou" as it were), boasting about how many pints of uber-curry they drank last Saturday, how fast their car is and so on. This however is mostly out of fear of being outed as "not male enough".

Third Question

Being treated as a female is nice simply because it means that people are recognising me for who I am rather than what they wish/expect me to be. It means they are respecting me as a person and respecting the choices I have made.

...as while I'm a man who wears women's clothing, I don't, for the most part, attempt to present as a woman. Nonetheless, your questions do seem to be addressed to all GMs who, for whatever reason, wear items of female apparel, so I figure I might as well give my two cents' worth. Anyway, here goes...

First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

Hmm, I'd have to say right off the bat that, as well-meaning as it no doubt is, the integration theory you outlined (you wouldn't have gotten it from Jung by any chance, would you?) really, really bugs me. It sort of implies that, if only I learnt to express my femininity in a more "socially acceptable" (snore) manner, I'd be only too happy to throw away all this cross-dressing nonsense, and become the virtual embodiment of the man in the grey flannel suit. No thanks! I don't think my CDing really comes from a failure to "integrate" anything anyway. I've never had much of a problem (not since my teens at any rate) with the fact I've a strong feminine side, and I don't think my family and friends have either (although I sometimes think the former group of individuals would rather I found a decidedly blander way in which to express that side). As far as I'm concerned, both my CDing and all the other "feminine" aspects of my personality have the same (no doubt neurological) origin; in fact, I often jokingly blame - no, credit! - my father's service in Vietnam for the way I've turned out - all that Agent Orange floating around over there back then must have somehow played a part! Interestingly enough, I've often been told that women's clothing really suits me, as, for as long as I can remember, I've had a rather slim, girlish build, and a pretty baby face that people sometimes go so far as to describe as feminine. This only reinforces my belief that wearing ladies' attire is "right" for me. It certainly appears so when I look at myself in the mirror thus garbed!

Interestingly, while my "feminine" side finds expression in a somewhat extreme manner, so does my "masculine" side. For example, I love heavy metal, hip-hop, industrial and other "hostile" forms of music; have a rather twisted obsession with tyrants, mobsters, and other evildoers; have had assorted body piercings for years (and have often toyed with the idea of getting tattoos as well); love to shock people; and, perhaps most outrageously of all, spent a couple of years during the '90s visiting (and developing a close friendship with) a convicted murderer in my own corner of the world! Funnily enough, people I've met have often come up with theories very similar to the "integration" one you mentioned to explain why I do the disturbing, extremely "male" things I do. Maybe because they find it impossible to square all those things with my innocent looks and generally soft, sensitive demeanour, they seem to assume my doing them must just be all part of some big defence mechanism I employ to keep people from seeing the "real" me (who, from the way they go on about him, must be so nice and inoffensive he'd pretty much bore to death anyone who had the misfortune to meet him). Really, though, I love being a mass of contradictions - it's so much more interesting than being totally consistent (and therefore dull and predictable) - and have no desire to ever change that part of me either. To use a somewhat poetic (or wanky, depending on your POV) analogy, I see the opposite extremes of my personality as being like fire and ice. I'd much rather keep them apart and let each retain its unique character and power than have them come together and end up as nothing more than so much lukewarm water. Yuck!

Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

There wasn't. See above.

Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

Depends on what you mean by being treated as a woman (oh, hold on, that's one of the questions you asked). While I don't, as I said, attempt to "pass" for the most part, I have sometimes found that people treat me differently (in a good way) when I'm dressed up in my feminine (or simply effeminate) finery. Some of my male friends and acquaintances become a little more physically affectionate with me (nothing sordid - just hugs, joking kisses, friendly touching, that sort of thing), which I quite like, while I also get noticed a lot more. As is often noted on this board, male clothing is still, unfortunately, pretty damn boring for the most part, and I've no desire to end up just another instantly forgettable guy in a drab suit (thankfully, my job doesn't require me to wear one), or, if I'm going to a formal event, tuxedo (yuck to the tenth power!). Indeed, if I go too long without wearing something eye-catching in public, my self-esteem starts to suffer. I think I'm pretty special, and feel my clothing should let the rest of the world know that too!

Anyway, there're a few other things you said that I'd like to comment on or ask questions about, so I'll address those now.

For now, I'll define femininity by describing myself as compared to the stereotypical male: being gentle and compassionate, having a lack of aggressiveness and a more cooperative approach to life than the traditional male competitiveness...

Hmm, you really think females are more cooperative? Sorry to be a cynic, but working over a decade in a female-dominated industry (aged care) has disabused me of that rather warm, fuzzy notion. Where I work there's always been a lot of bitchiness, back-stabbing and petty politics, not to mention a BIG problem with the various departments not cooperating with one another.

...feeling free to express emotion (in private .. mature GGs also do not like to cry in public)...

Interesting point. I must say I have little patience with women who "turn on the waterworks" in an attempt to manipulate me.

...or perhaps having a lack of interest in traditional male pursuits preferring the gentler pastimes such as developing a taste for fine arts, dancing, music and the like.

No offence, but where, where, where does this regrettably widespread idea come from that any interest in the arts is automatically feminine? It can't be that long ago, surely, that a proper interest in the arts was something that every civilized, educated man was expected to have. And I've always been particularly baffled by this notion that music is "feminine". If that's so, why is it that the dream of every teenage boy seems to be starting his own rock band? What about all the "hostile" forms of music I mentioned above? Is death metal "feminine"? Is gangsta rap "feminine"? Is punk, for that matter, or thumping hardcore techno? (Waits for people to start trying to evade the question by saying, "Those aren't music!") Going back to art in general, what about more macho forms of this: tattooing, say, or sculpture, or even war stories?

I do know many non-TG men who are not stereotypically macho. They are gentle and sensitive in a way that every woman dreams of finding in a partner. I've raised my sons to be like this. They are all very compassionate and nurturing. One of my sons is artistic. The other even loves to shop for clothes. The middle is sensitive to a degree I've seldom seen in a GG. I do not know if they display different, (more manly?) behaviors when they are in the company of other males alone, although I've noticed they were slightly more dogmatic in the presence of their males friends than in female company. I do know they are well liked by everyone and no one makes fun of them. My sons and the other gentle men I know seem to have integrated what might traditionally be defined as feminine personality traits. I do prefer to call these traits human, as I do not believe GGs have exclusive rights to them.

Congratulations on raising your sons this way; it's most interesting (and inspiring!) to hear how they've turned out. I gather none of them are cross-dressers, but do any of them have a style of dress that is, if nothing else, a little more adventurous than that of the average male? Does your artistic son's creativity extend to the way he clothes himself, for example? Is your "shopper" son a bit of a metrosexual? I'm actually an aspiring artist myself (a writer), and one interesting thing I've noticed is that a lot of people guess that from the way I dress (which for me is just another excellent reason to keep on doing it). Actually, I feel that my having an artistic temperament explains a LOT about me - why I cross-dress; why I can be sensitive and emotional on the one hand, yet crave extreme "male" experiences on the other; why I have no desire to express my "softer side" in the way my parents would no doubt rather I did ie by becoming a loving, loyal, hardworking husband and father, with a nice house in suburbia, two-point-whatever kids, a dog etc. Sorry, but that's not the life for me! (Actually, funnily enough, they also had this fantasy for a time that I was going to grow up to be a Catholic priest - another decidedly "non-macho" vocation. Unfortunately, that idea's also fallen by the wayside - I've simply become far too much of a cynic about religion.)

I think some of us are scared of acknowledging all we are.

But I think some of us are simply bi-gendered people who need to express themselves as boh men and women alternately.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

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I would say it's because it is just plain difficult to switch back and forth from one persona to another, each one having their own unique characteristics. We separate the two personas because we feel (is it just us or society causing this?) that the feminine traits would be frowned upon ,if we went too deep, by others (family, friends, acquaintences). I know if I appeared too sensitive at times, or too empathetic, I would be labelled something unflattering (take your pick of adjectives).
I, personally, find it difficult to integrate the two, at least very overtly, because my wife for one, doesn't like that side of me. She is not alone. My typical male friends would have made fun, etc. This all, despite the fact that this side of me is part of what people like about me. i am a little more thoughtful, a little more accepting, empathetic, etc. It's just that I can not let the whole cat out of the bag, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

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Exactly, I agree, a good question. In many instances, the cding started as a sexually charged event. Is that where it started, or were we drawn to that because of a lack of emotional release? I suspect the cders emotional make up AND need to dress are linked. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

Many thanks for your responses and for your continued patience with my questions.
:love:

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It is this lack of ability to integrate that causes the elation from looking like and being treated as a woman for most, imo.
It frees us to be totally who we are in an emotional sense, completely.

Its not that we can't be compassionate, gentle, or sensitive in our males personas. We can. But there is only so much that society can take (I feel). So the integration (such as it is) is incomplete.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

Many thanks for your responses and for your continued patience with my questions.
:love:

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It seems to me that much of what is "male" or "female" is taught. Just for example, let's say you have the duty of babysitting a four year old child for the day. The parent drops the kid off in a green and yellow Sesame Street outfit and says, "please take good care of Chris", then the parent leaves. Chris won't say much but is open to your suggestions as far as toys or tv shows or outdoor activities go. Would you entertain the child according to their likes and dislikes, or steer them toward things based on your best guess of their gender? There were times when I stayed at my Grandpa's when I wanted to go out and play "army" in the field, but also times when I wanted to sneak into an upstairs bedroom and pick through old clothes of my aunt's and find something pretty to wear. There was no sexuality to it at that time, it was just what I wanted to do (knowing the latter was not what I was supposed to do, but never knowing why - and I still don't know).

Second question - It is easier for me if someone has no issues with my personality, the need to show it externally is lessened. I had one GG friend who knew all about me and we'd go out to lunch now and then, I never felt the need to dress up more than what i wear every day, but I didn't have to hide it in conversation either. I got to know her as Ivy first, so she saw all there was to see and was okay with it. Yes, the need is still there. It's the same feeling as from my childhood, it was just something I liked and now I feel free enough to do it. It's still sexual sometimes, I can't say I understand the connection but I also feel a sexual disconnection at times when I have to be at my most male. Not always, it's a bit of a see-saw for me.

Third Question - There's a mix of vanity and sexuality in the visual aspect, the immediate attention for doing something I enjoy is a boost, but I get an even greater satisfaction if someone tells me that I "converse like a woman" or "it feels like I'm talking to my sister". I don't make an effort to do those things or really know what "talking like a woman" means, it's just me. It's very gratifying, no matter how I am dressed. Why? I have no idea.

I wasn't quite sure how to reply, until I read Marshchild's post. I couldn't have said it better. While I'm not quite so flamboyant, and take the feminine appearance a bit further when I go that way, I still don't change my name, my voice, or how I behave. Dressing up occasionally seems just enough to balance the quotidian maleness, so I won't psychoanalyze it beyond that. I'm happy, so what would be the point?

As to theatre and "the arts," well, they bore me. It's not because I think I'm not, as a male, supposed to like them. I just don't. I like going to the symphony when they're playing something I like, but for the most part, I see the "patrons of the arts" (those who ooh and ahh over "modern art") as pretentious, phony, and lacking in taste. I don't care for football -- American or otherwise -- because it's boring too. But I do like plenty of other blood&guts sports.

I'll buy the "mass of contradictions" t-shirt, and wear it proudly.

Excuse me sir, but I am vaguely offended by your line of questioning. I wonder how a smart man, such as you, could not already know the answers you are seeking. What? You are not a man? I don’t believe you! No real woman could possibly be so manly in her intellectual presentation. Please explain to me all of the ways you are not really the person you claim to be.

Some people would like feminine males and masculine females (remember them?) to integrate themselves out of existence. Out of a modest amount of respect for other people, I assume that everyone is able to correctly self-identify themselves. They have balanced their personalities and the balance has settled to its proper position. There is no need to adjust the scale to get a different result.

What is wrong with all of the fake people who are not singularly feminine females or singularly masculine males? How can we fix them? How can they fix themselves? Somebody should do something.

There is nothing wrong with sex and gender diversity. There is nothing wrong with people who have normal gender attributes, and there is nothing wrong with people who have atypical gender attributes or transgender attributes. People can’t be homogenized the way we homogenize our social stereotypes.

I suspect that most women would be unhappy if they were regularly perceived as men by other people. Likewise, feminine women probably prefer to be perceived as feminine. There have been several noticeable instances of outrage from GGs on this site when anyone challenges the gender presentation of any GG anywhere, known or unknown. Is it really so hard to understand why anyone else might want their self-identified sex or gender to be perceived correctly by other people? It shouldn’t be. Everyone, not just normal people, wants social affirmation of their true selves.

First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

Unless we want to be perceived as gay, we suppress any outward display of female behavior. Some of us (of course myself for example) have a hard enough time being taken seriously as a guy because of our job choice, so we don't need any other things that would make anyone question our sexuality.

Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?
I'm not 'out', so I don't 'present' to anyone other than myself. I don't spend much time looking at myself when dressed, but I can feel the difference in the clothing I'm wearing. For me, when dressed in male clothes, there's always the feeling of being in the wrong outfit. Kind of like an itch you cannot scratch. Which goes away when I'm dressed as a girl. I pretty much continue everything else in my life exactly the same whether dressed as a guy or as a girl. I don't change my voice, my walk, but other things may alter a bit simply because they must; a long wig, for example means keeping it out of my face, so more attention is diverted there. And of course when wearing a dress or skirt, I try not to sit with my legs widely spread apart as I might when dressed as a man wearing pants. Other than that, nothing changes.

Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

I've never been treated as a woman. I don't treat women differently than men either. So, I'm not sure I can answer the last question. The closest I came was for a brief time, a gay female friend who knew about me mentioned that talking with me was very much like talking to another woman, but she didn't appear to be acting differently towards me than she had before she knew about my crossdressing.

This is an educative thread wish i can chip in but its too "deep" for me so go on with the contributions cos to me CDing is a phenomenon which need all inputs from all sources, CDing is damn complicated.........OK CDing or human sexuallity? yeah human sexuallity is so complicated.

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Originally Posted by Marshchild

Hmm, I'd have to say right off
the bat that, as well-meaning as it no doubt is, the integration theory you outlined (you wouldn't have gotten it from Jung by any chance, would you?) really, really bugs me. It sort of implies that, if only I learnt to express my femininity in a more "socially acceptable" (snore) manner, I'd be only too happy to throw away all this cross-dressing nonsense, and become the virtual embodiment of the man in the grey flannel suit.

Hmm, you really think females are more cooperative?

No offence, but where, where, where does this regrettably widespread idea come from that any interest in the arts is automatically feminine?

Congratulations on raising your sons this way; it's most interesting (and inspiring!) to hear how they've turned out. I gather none of them are cross-dressers, but do any of them have a style of dress that is, if nothing else, a little more adventurous than that of the average male?

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Originally Posted by Pink Person

Excuse me sir, but I am vaguely offended by your line of questioning.

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To everyone who responded, a big thank you! :love:

And to Marshchild and Pink Person, I am sorry if I offended you. I've heard the explanation before (about integration and dressing to compensate for repressed feminity) and I wanted to ask the question here to get some feedback. I'm actually quite clueless when it comes to understanding some of the deeper reasons for CDing, especially as they are as varied as there are members of the TG community. I don't spend much time over analyzing it (I much prefer to enjoy the CDing with my SO), but every once in awhile I'll read a post that gives rise to a question.

Pink Person, I do agree that everyone should express themselves as they wish and that diversity is to be celebrated, not put down.

To answer your other questions, Marshchild, not having an ability to encapsulate what it means to me to be feminine, I defined it in a stereotypical way and used words such as 'perhaps'. I agree not everyone fits in the same mold, but it has been my observation that generally GGs are less competitive than GMs. Whether this is conditioning or hard-wiring is beyond my ability to determine.

In terms of having an appreciation for the arts or experiencing the 'softer' propensities or emotions, my point exactly is that it is not exclusively within the GG domain to enjoy these things. I wish everyone would come to see these traits as being generally 'human' as opposed to being male vs. female (or anything else all around or in between). :)

My sons ... yes, two of them are more adventurous in the way they dress, preferring to express their individuality. One is painfully reluctant to step out of the box and interestingly enough, this was the son who played dress-up most when he was little. He absolutely lived in his fantasies and vividly 'became' the character he was portraying as a child. None of them wish to CDress to my knowledge. If they did, I would support them.

Again, thank you and everyone else for your responses. I'll refer to this thread again the next time such a question pops into my head. There is much insight here.

:hugs:

As for me, I have and will always take the position that we are born to be

CDs or TSs - somewhere deep within our being are these female parts of brain

and mind and body and they are there just as much as our male parts are

there - we are taught by society to be males while our female side has to

exist in secrecy, shame and guilt - eventually that female side HAS to come

out - it just has to - or we self destruct


JoAnne Wheeler

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Originally Posted by ReineD

First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

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IME, it's often TSs who have the hardest time dealing with their masculine traits - I know one girl who always used to refer to 'him' as 'The Thing'. But perhaps it's also important for the people who know you - it's much easier for them to deal with just one gender?

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Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

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I think many of us go through a journey when exploring our feminine side.. Personally, at one time it felt like I had two faces, looking different ways - but over time, they sort of came together and now I definitely feel like one person, although people definitely react to me very differently in the two modes?

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Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

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I've said many times before, I believe there are different forms of gender dysphoria - one of those is certainly a wish to be treated as female (or, perhaps for some, just NOT as a male)? There is a very big difference in the expectations and reactions of people to a male, than a female?


Think how you react to a male, even a familiar one - there's usually a degree of wariness, there are things you would discuss with a girlfriend you wouldn't with a man?

When we are accepted into the 'tribe', that can feel hugely validating of the femininity we see within ourselves?

With gender, I see it as a role that we assume. Actually, in our lives, we may assume many roles, and actually move between them. We are the parent, then we are the child. We are the teacher, then we assume the role of student. And on and on. We are always moving between our roles.

But although we change roles, we do not really change who we are. While gender is a very strong role, I do not see it inherently different than other roles we assume in our life. So to be a man, or to be a woman, does not change who I am. It only changes how I interact with the rest of society.

Another way to look at it is gender acts as a prism that my person reflects through. The masculine and feminine prisms reflect my person differently, but my person is the same.

As to what value I get out of it, I would suggest that human beings are very social creatures. We get value, important value, out of our social interactions. One way to describe it is our souls are fed by our social interaction. In addition, our gender roles feed our souls quite differently.

I would suggest that for most people, they are satisfied with the 'food' that their assigned gender role provides. Most males are quite satisfied with the masculine social 'food'. But for some people, just due to the diversity of being human, their souls need something different. Perhaps they just need the food of feminine social interaction, or perhaps like me, they need both.

The point is that as social animals, our gender interactions are important to our basic persons, and that is the value we receive by diverging from the standard gender roles.

Marla

Reine

You really are casing after the Holy Grail of CDing. Warning - no matter how close you think you are to it, it will forever be out of reach. LOL.

My thoughts:

1. Integration is difficult because we are aware of our gender dichotomy. We fear it, are puzzled by it and are continuously thinking and dreaming about it. It quickly becomes a central component of our thoughts and our identity begins to revolve around it. We become very sensitive to tiny nuances between the genders that other people never pick up on. And on top of this we gravitate towards stereotypical female role models with heightened feminine characteristics to copy to offset our masculinity.

Where we end up is becoming our own worse enemy. We become paranoid that any slip of the tongue or revelation of a interest in a female pastime etc will instantly unmask us as a CD ie major time pervert and wierdo.

In contrast the gentle males you describe who are not CDs are not aware of any gender dichotomy. Unlike CDs they never correlate any feminine behavior they exhibit or female pastime can only be accessed by becoming a female. CDs do entrap themselves in this idea because we become too sensitized to the taboo status.

CDs use clothes as a gateway into the forbidden zone. It is a highly symbolic act. There is both a physical and mental transformation in the process of dressing. We enter the world of our dreams like Alice through the Looking Glass, but this world is inconsistent with reality so a division in our heads becomes necessary. One foot in fantasy, the other in reality. Integration seems an impossible dream.


2. Your question can only exist in a world devoid of gender prejudice where women's clothes are unisex as well. In such a culture parents would dress their boys in dresses so boys would take for granted access to traditional feminine looks and behaviors. It is hard to imagine how a CD could develop since he would be enjoying a safe mainstream lifestyle. There would be lots of male role models. lots of Brad Pitts in sexy LBDs, and of course lots of girls chasing after pretty men. In this scenario only those individuals with extreme gender dysphoria ie TS would be apparent.

3. Being treated as a woman is important because it validates our femininity as being real. It is the realization of our fantasies turning into reality. It is the reward for all the hard effort in learning the skills and tricks of the transformation and the years spent in secrecy and shame. It is the equivalent of the poor man winning the lottery, the loser becoming powerful, the ugly man winning the heart of a beautiful woman. It does not get any better than this.

[quote=ReineD;1657391]

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First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

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Reine,

Thank you for your thought provoking post. There is so much to consider with your prefacing remarks and questions. This could be likened to giving the precise dimensions of a fog bank because the answers can be all over the place.

My comments are opinions that are based on my personal experience. Therefore I will refrain from generalizing on behalf the of the CD universe.

Now to the question at hand; I believe that I was born with both feminine and masculine feelings. For as long as I can remember, I have felt this way. I don't recall any instance of developing a female gender identity experience.

When I was younger, I repressed my emotions and what some consider to be feminine personality traits. Yes, they were firmly there but out of fear for reprisals and/or sanctions, these had to be kept hidden. Now that I am older and no one is trying to emotionally shape my masculinity into the "perfect alpha male", I live as I choose. Please don't get me wrong, but I don't strive to be either a male or a female. Instead, I just want to be a good person that enjoys being female too. So if I want to have an interests in the arts (which I do) or show emotion, then so be it because it is really OK.

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Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

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Sure and why not? I have a lot of motivations for presenting female beyond love, need, or sexual thrill. Unless you are really interested, I will refrain from creating a novel on the subject.

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Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

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Your final question seems to have 3 parts.
a. ... being treated as a woman.... and what does it mean to me? This question is making an assumption that women are only treated in one fashion and you have asked us to define that concept. To be dressed female, I would prefer to be treated like a "lady" with all of its good implications. Sadly, not all real GGs are treated well and I would not wish this on anyone nor myself. b. How...different than...male? Some males might expect to be treated as the "testosterone ridden, alpha male". Some people might automatically treat males as such too. Then again, there may be some that do not. Note that I said "some". Maybe we have limited our behaviors with regard to male or female to some mysterious rules of social stereotyping. Thus my mantra; let's be different for a change.
c. ...integrating compassion, gentleness, and sensitivity in one's personality? I wasn't sure of your question within this part. I think everyone has these attributes. My question becomes to what degree can or are they utilized? Then too, are you implying their limitations to females alone, thus their blending into the male's counter-personality is likened to oil mixing with water?

That's my two cents worth for the moment. Thank you challenging my thought process.

Babette

Early in my life, I found that I enjoyed wearing dresses. As a guy, I had no experience of it, but was always fascinated at the fact that the girls wore clothing that I not only never had the opportunity to try, but was actually forbidden by the rules of society to wear at all. I tried on a pair of pantyhose once, for reasons unrelated to this curiosity, and I was hooked. I've been dressing in feminine attire ever since.

I found that doing so allowed me to express a feminine quality that was dormant inside of me. Although I don't act at all overtly feminine in my daily life, I am at all times drawn to femininity in my experiences and encounters as I go about my day. Since I'm an otherwise rather normal heterosexual male, there are times when I find the whole feminine experience sexually attractive and erotic. Not always. But I think it's normal if that happens. It doesn't bother me a bit. In fact, I rather like it, and I'd consider it abnormal not to.

Crossdressing does indeed allow a softer part of me to emerge. Marla is more compassionate and caring, non-competitive for the most part, and is quite passive. As a guy, I'm sometimes more aggressive and competitive, opinionated and less empathetic to others. That's not to say I'm a callous SOB, but in comparison, Marla is softer.

As for being treated as a woman, I have little experience with that, since I only rarely go out. But it's nice to have people hold doors for you and do the whole "ladies first" bit. Everyone appreciates common courtesy.

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Originally Posted by Katie B

It's the clothes, sure, but not just the clothes.

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:yt:
Transgender is (at least) about Gender Identity, Gender expression and Gender Roles. There is a recent trend to refer to GIE - Gender Identity and Expression - in discussion of transgender rights.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

1. Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits?

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This is the Gender Identity piece. I am not sure that integration is inherently more difficult for TGs. Some GMs are comfortable with their more gentle and sensitive side, but in general (generalizing I know) these attributes are not nurtured in school, work or play. These are human traits but our culture does not reinforce it in the male population. On the contrary, many who feel that this is part of their Gender Identity may go to lengths to hide or suppress it rather than integrate it.

This is changing. Reina, your description of you sons is remarkably similar to my twin sons. That could be a whole case study in itself as they are Mirror Identical twins, one macho, one metro-sexual.

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2. If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

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My answer is yes. This is the Gender Expression piece. We all have a need to express ourselves, TG or not. Integrating the masculine and feminine does not eliminate the need for expression. Gender Expression in a transgendered person would still likely incorporate a feminine expression. I would hypothesize that, amongst GGs, the "tomboy" look is a form of masculine gender expression.

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3. Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

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IMHO, this is recognition and validation of that component of the transgendered inner being. The greater the internal struggle to get in touch with that inner being, the greater the elation. I am very comfortable with maintaining a gender middle ground. It doesn't bother me which way I am treated. If people see my male energy through my clothes, makeup and accessories so be it, that is part of who I am. It is also nice to have my 'feminine' energy recognized too, because that is also part of who I am.

"How is it different than being treated as a male? " I worked with a female colleague for some time. She frequently talked and consulted with me on how to deal with her errant teenage daughter. She wasn't looking for a male perspective or a female perspective, just my perspective. She valued my advice and support and in fact her daughter did well in the end. About a year later, I told her of my transgender. Her response was that she was not at all surprised as she always saw a feminine quality about me. Without labels, without clothes and props, without concious effort, she responded to my feminine qualities. It appeared to me in hindsight that she confided in me as she would a female peer because of the "integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in my personality". Yes, I felt elated with her comment, because it validated the femininity in who I am.

Thank you for posting such a thought provoking post. :love:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

This gave rise to a few questions. :)

I'm sure there will be as many different viewpoints are there are people in this forum. But for now, I would prefer a CDer's outlook since I imagine TSs have no issues with integrating feminine personality traits, as obviously they are women to begin with.

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I'm not sure I buy that TS's are women to begin with as a general rule. I've known a number of CD/TG types who eventually moved on and transitioned and had SRS. The main, but not exclusive, difference between them and the non-transitioners I noted was inherent passability, not necessarily a more authentic "inner woman". I know several TS's who don't vibe female much at all.

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I take Satrana's explanation to mean a CDer feels, while young, that he will be rejected by his family, peers, and society if he allows them to see his more feminine self, hence the compartmentalization. For now, I'll define femininity by describing myself as compared to the stereotypical male: being gentle and compassionate, having a lack of aggressiveness and a more cooperative approach to life than the traditional male competitiveness, feeling free to express emotion (in private .. mature GGs also do not like to cry in public), or perhaps having a lack of interest in traditional male pursuits preferring the gentler pastimes such as developing a taste for fine arts, dancing, music and the like. I read once a theory explaining that an urge to dress in a feminine manner develops as a way to provide an outlet for repressed femininity. I do not know if this is a valid explanation.

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I think in our modern society as a male one can integrate all this stuff without being a TG. TG means that you want to be percieved and treated as a woman socially (and all that implies).

In computer systems, there is the notion of the kernel and the shell. The kernel is the inner essence and capabilities of a system. The shell is the presentation layer. In human terms, the presentation layer determines our percieved gender: how we groom ourselves, behave, move, talk, the particular gender-specific social rules we adhere to (which are quite numerous).

But the kernel values can be quite typically feminine and a male will have no problems as long as he maintains a resonable male "shell".

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I do know many non-TG men who are not stereotypically macho. They are gentle and sensitive in a way that every woman dreams of finding in a partner. I've raised my sons to be like this. They are all very compassionate and nurturing. One of my sons is artistic. The other even loves to shop for clothes. The middle is sensitive to a degree I've seldom seen in a GG. I do not know if they display different, (more manly?) behaviors when they are in the company of other males alone, although I've noticed they were slightly more dogmatic in the presence of their males friends than in female company.

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Confident dogmatism, or a degree of it, is one of the male social norms -- it's expected, one of the playful dominance/status games men play with each other. A woman might simply conspicuously brandish her $1500 designer bag for the same effect :-)

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I do know they are well liked by everyone and no one makes fun of them. My sons and the other gentle men I know seem to have integrated what might traditionally be defined as feminine personality traits. I do prefer to call these traits human, as I do not believe GGs have exclusive rights to them.

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Quite true.

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First question:
Why has integration been more difficult for TGs, or is there more to it? Does a GM who develops a female gender identity experience more than a difficulty integrating feminine emotion and personality traits? My SO once told me that having his feminine self allowed him to develop an interest in art and ballroom dancing. I never did ask how to explain GMs who love to engage in these activities and who are not TG or gay.

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My view is that Tg-ness (however you wish to define it) is an internal primal force, not understood even by us victims :-). Therefore, we come up with all these reasons why we do it: eg, it's the only way I can integrate my unexpressed sensitivity. I don't think there are logical, intellectual reasons why we are TG, it's so basic that it defies rationalization.

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Second question:
If there had never been an issue with integrating the femininity (if I've defined it correctly above) with the male physical self, would there still be a love, or a need, or a sexual thrill for presenting female?

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Well, as explained above, I think the whole "integration need" argument is false: the desire to present as female is it's own reward. As far as sexual thrill, I think that if you are heterosexual as a male, and you have a desire to present as female, that you will likely be turned on by yourself, and this adds all kinds of complications to the whole issue.

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Which leads me to my last question:
Why does being treated as a woman bring such a sense of elation, and what does being treated as a woman mean to you? How is it different than being treated as a male? It seems this would have nothing to do with integrating compassion, gentleness and sensitivity in one's personality?

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I personally think that the TG's among us (those who want to be percieved socially as a female, not just dress in an article of clothing or two for personal fun), feel that exhiliration because the primal need has been met.

There's probably a brain area that says "you want to identify and be percieved as female". Some say it's the bst-c (caudal nucleus of the basal straitum), it may be something else. But I think it's primal and beyond rationalization.