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As we know, us trans girls who either don't pass or are otherwise known to be TG catch a lot of things like "OMG that's a dude!" or "fag" or whatever from strangers.
Family tends to act stupid about it like for me "but you are such a good looking man..."
Or, the GG's just don't really treat us like we are one of them.
What challenges do the FTM's have to deal with?
Somehow I always believed the FTMs had things easier but I have heard the contrary, so what about it? Just curious
i've had plenty of genetic men not treat me as male, and some very rudely too...
i've had comments like 'when you become a man'....ive also had 'why would you want to become a man because you are such a pretty girl'....ive even had some people say 'i'll never see you as a man even when you have facial hair'....i get the same things as some of my mtf friends like being called ma'am in restaurants and shops where i have to constantly correct people, i think FtMs and MtFs share the same challenges in life, just in a different way
Condescention is a big one. There are people who think it's 'cute' how we're 'trying to be macho' and some think we can't possibly be male because we're 'just girls' and there's a lot of sexism involved. There's also the feminists who say we're 'betraying our gender'.
It's a little off topic, but...
Let me assure you that you don't have to be FTM to hear about not really being a man. Everyone who was born with a pens has to put up with that, and there is a good measure of truth to it. Having a penis makes a person "male," physically at least, but being male and being a man are two distinctly different things. Honestly being a man has a LOT less to do with a beard, drinking beer, driving a truck, being a womanizer, or being macho than a lot of males think it does; in fact, in almost every case, those things are indicators that one is NOT a man.
You want to be a man? Devote yourself to something larger than yourself. Work hard, but don't seek recognition for it. Sacrifice for the benefit of others. Seek excellence. Challenge yourself - not others. Be fearless, but not reckless, or just stupid. Be unfailingly generous and kind to others. Be well educated, well spoken, and well mannered. Don't be afraid to get dirty, but unless you are getting dirty - be clean. Be disciplined. Don't brag. Read some Hemingway - that guy was a pro, Kipling won't hurt you either.
Ugh, I hate Hemmingway.
I've got people who think who I am is funny...or entertaining to watch...
I get a lot of "You'll never be a real man", but I just laugh at them, because, who the **** are they to tell me what a real man is? I know what a real man is, and it's me.
Wow guys, it sounds like it is not much different for our brothers.
One thing I don't quite get though -
OK, GM's might seem to treat FTM like they are less than, but GG's aren't quite as bad when it comes to how they normally treat MTF.
And for ANY gender, isn't it nice that there will always be someone telling you that you are not a "real" man/woman, kind of like what Hope said
All of the above that the other boys have said - I have had the "why on earth would you want to become a man, you were such a pretty girl!" from across the board (family and non-family); I constantly get "you will never be a man" (usually with "...because you will never have a penis" tacked on the end) and the whole condescending/patronising attitude of "aww, how cute, look at you trying so hard to be a man".
Also the "you're not a real man" thing, and people who despite being able to identify me as male by the way I look, insist on pointing out all the "less than male" characteristics they think I have (such as being compassionate or considerate, and pretty much anything that doesn't fit the "men are all ignorant, inconsiderate boofheads" stereotype). Never mind that cisgendered people cross these stereotypical boundaries every day, but people don't even NOTICE it, BECAUSE they are cisgendered.
Like 4serrus I have also encountered a lot of lesbians and feminists who have called me a traitor and basically abused me for "switching camps" or "betraying my gender". I have also been told that because I am a man, I CAN'T be a feminist o.O
As for Hemingway and Kipling....I think to some extent even they are buying into the stereotypes of what makes a man. My biggest role model for the kind of man I want to be is John Butler (the musician). He's very masculine but in a kind of...feline way I guess is the best way to describe it (if you see a picture of him you will understand what I mean), but he's a totally devoted husband and family man, a vocal environmental, political and social activist, a humanitarian, and has started a foundation to support up and coming independent young musicians out of the money he has made from his career. He's an all-round damn nice guy, too.
I have found so far that the worst sexism and stuff I have encountered has actually come from MtFs - GMs tend to be pretty accepting of me for the most part (with the notable exception of those in my family who have a bee in their bonnet about me somehow threatening their masculinity or SOMETHING lol) and GGs usually don't have a problem - I do notice that sometimes I get treated a bit differently by GGs than the bio guys do (and yes, it has to do with me having been raised and socialised female because I understand girls better than bio guys do and because it seems that the girls feel more comfortable around me than they do around bio guys because I treat them differently to the way most of the bio guys do). I don't have a problem with that though because I see it as a social advantage, if anything.
Of course there are a few exceptions - there have been a few (straight) GGs who have been quite rude and sexist toward me, but for the most part I find that once people SEE me and actually start talking to me, they don't question my masculinity in the slightest. Even when I am teased sometimes for being a "fag boy" or whatever by my friends lol, they all seem to have the ability to recognise that I am definitely a man, just a very broadly defined one who is comfortable with having the ability and the scope to skate all over the male side of the gender spectrum ;)
I think it comes down to what Thornton said, who is anyone else to tell us who we are or what a "real" man is? If we are comfortable with our own masculinity and we KNOW that's who we are, that's what counts - and nobody else's opinion should change that level of comfort and knowledge of our identity. I also like to think that FtMs are kind of a "new breed" of man - in the sense that we have the privilege of being able to SEE the BS around gender indoctrination and pick and choose to an extent which parts of that we want to keep and which to discard to shape ourselves into the kind of man we WANT to be, rather than being dictated to by society as to what THEY think we should be.
Yeah, I can pretty much only repeat everything that's been said already.
-Being mocked.
-Being told we don't exist.
-Viewed as being "cute" because we're "trying" to be guys.
-Being rejected by certain feminist groups because we're "betrayers of our gender."
-Being told we'll never "really" be men.
-Being viewed as a "dyke."
-Being asked such things as "Why do you want to get rid of your beautiful body?" or "But you're such a pretty girl! It'll be such a loss/waste!"
-Being given advice on how to be a man when it wasn't asked for.
-Not being taken as seriously as MtFs.
-Having our issues minimized with various excuses.
-Despite all this, being told we "have it easier."
I think that last one may be the one that hurts the most when coming from within the TG community itself. Actually, any of the above statements hurt even more when said to you within the trans community. It can seriously make you feel like everybody is rejecting you or minimizing your problems. You don't even find solace with the group of people that's supposed to get you. Yet they're going through the exact same things! It gets so maddening sometimes that you don't even want to think about it.
Well, first of all, we either get labelled “lesbians” even if we like men…or confused, of course, the classic confused!
My family always said “but you were a model, a beautiful girl” no. I was a beautiful boy who presented as female because I had little choice.
Every partner I have had has wanted me as something I am not. They thought they could “turn me back into a girl” haha, haha, hahaaaaa…you can’t turn someone into something they weren’t beforehand. I’ve had lesbians pretend to like men, pretend to ID as bisexual to attempt to get with me. I’ve had men think I am less than them.
“When you become a man” yeah had that Kieron. Idiots, eh? OR! “I know you were a woman before” LOLAGE! I’ve had men ask me what size my chest is, if I have been “tampered with” erm, I’m not electronic you know?! [And other disgusting stuff]
BUT!, this is my favourite, said to me by a transwoman “you should be grateful with what you have cause I’d kill for your body, why get rid of it?” or “why would you want to be a man?”
-cripples laughing-
Oh and I had a lesbian spike me and attack me because I told her I was a male and she didn’t like that because I was a “traitor to women” =/ right…okay…
My previous girlfriend was domestically violent and knew she could get away with it because she had forced me to burn all bridges with my family, then started the physical and then AFTER saying all this bullsh*t about wanting me to feel what she felt sexually [as in touching me, WHAT?!] and then I got angry she said I couldn’t shout at her or hit her cause I was a man and it wasn’t allowed…I wouldn’t have hit her but wtf? LMAO…
I have more but it gets more and more violent and I am in a good mood right now so don’t really want to anger myself thinking about it.
We all get it tough, on both sides, everyone can encounter this sh*t, sexism whatever…but that is only a few examples of personal insults. I have received offensive comments from males, females and people from the whole LGBT “scene”. I’m sure MtFs get equal amounts of crap.
:eek: What a clueless, self-centered, and idiotic thing to say! If anybody ought to understand, it's another trans person. :Angry3: I'm curious, was she THAT self-centered or did she just have the IQ of a fence post?Quote:
Originally Posted by NiCo
Wow, you gents here sound to actually have things a bit worse than us women.
Look guys, Don't let anyone tell you that you are "not real men"
For people in the trans community seeming to reject, I think that is common for all TG folks. I once was friends with this TS woman years ago who said she didn't want to see me en femme, it is like "are you for real?"
Hey look at some of the advantages the FTM's have - they look like younger men than what they might actually be. :thumbsup:
Ya know, on this board, I have yet to see an FTM who didn't pass as male very convincingly. I know we hate the word "pass" but for lack of better terms.
You guys are quite strong. It takes a real man to put up with this kind of crap. Me, being MTF, while I can relate to the same things, it is breaking me down quite fast.
I love being told I am/was a "good looking man". Yeah thanks but no thanks.
Erin
Guess I will add to the list here....well.....I was told by My mother (as she was informing Me that I was being kicked out of My family) that I "killed her daughter" and "made Myself ugly" because I "used to be beautiful" and have now "ruined Myself"....I have been told that I am crazy...that I will never be a man because I don't have a penis....When I inform people that T does, in FACT, change your genitals, I have actually had people ask if they could SEE it ( I am not kidding)....as well as most of what the other guys have written here...and these are the things that come to mind off the top of My head...There are a lot of examples of problems that we face at all stages of transition and beyond....It's not an easy road, that's for sure....but, for Me, there IS no price too high to pay to be who I am....and being willing to pay that price and keep on fighting the good fight IS being a man. :thumbsup::drink:
Wow... just wow... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by NiCo
Fence post sounds about right, but than that would be a insult to fence posts. But yeah too many self centered people i today society to the point where it makes me sick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith_G
Oh well guess we'll just have to make the best out of what we can get. :straightface:
I think that you'd expect other trans people to accept you since we're on the same boat. At least this is what I believed.I've heard gay men say they hated when cisgendered/straight people discriminated against them, yet some of them even discriminated against transvestites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole Erin
I think that when non-trans people see a a person born as a male in a dress or a person born female at birth with short hair and girly features, they immediately bracket the former with gay men and the latter with lesbians.
Those who define somebody's sexuality just by looking at how they look, talk or walk are very prone to skate on thin ice.
We don't have to let those comments, giggles or stares bring us down. They can't hold us down.
Trey, perhaps some people when they asked you if they could see your genitals mightn't have meant badly yet they obviously failed to see that people don't go about life asking other to show their intimate parts. Curiosity was stronger than common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
Years ago, at a bar I used to hang out at, there was a guy who was a bit homophobic.
He just seemed to make too many gay jokes and put down (in a somewhat friendly, not realy threatening mannor) anyone he thought might be gay, etc.
However, one day a someone who I suspected) might be a transmam stated coming to the bar.
Long story short.... he started going balistic on the transman.
To me he seemd to be really threatened by him and it went to the core of his masculinity. In his mind If a woman can act like and become a man, it diminished his mascilinity.
In other words the a-hole was insecure about his own masculinty and he was confronted by it whenever the transman was around
I suspect this is a common reason for transman bashing.
Wow, what an eye opener!! I am really sorry you guys have to put up all that BS. The view from the other side of the hill in a way. Most of the time I read what other cds do to pass. But its tough to see what you guys have to put up with. All I can say is good luck and stick with it. Hopefully things will change for the better for you.
This is not unique to those who are gender variant. Last I heard, about 7% of relationships are abusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by NiCo
According to my psychiatrist, abusers rarely admit to having a problem unless they are convicted of an abuse-related offence in a court of law, and even then, there are no guarantees.
If the only way to stop the abuse is breaking all contact, so be it.
Don't you find it a bit ironic that on a sight where we struggle against gender stereotyping to take it upon yourself to define what constitutes being a man? Just sayin'Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
I second this observation, I have noticed that a lot of bio guys seem to be very insecure about their masculinity around me and act accordingly - it's like I am treading on their sacred turf or something lol, you know, "only XY men can be masculine and you're trespassing on MY territory!" I have never been physically attacked yet, but verbally, yes, a lot. They seem to feel a need to belittle me and bring me down to their level to make themselves feel like more of a man. If I am in a group of bio guys who don't KNOW that I am trans, it isn't a problem, but if I'm in a space where it's common knowledge (like a trans-friendly pub for example), the bio guys (with the exception for some reason of the majority of gay men, not sure why that is but I suspect it's because they are often not stereotypically masculine so are less threatened by someone else's expression of masculinity?) can be really nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara Jo
A lot of this is because guys size each other up. Especially, young ones. You have to act right, talk right, look right. Once you pass the unspoken criteria, they relax around you. You have to comport yourself like you are already a member of the club. I remember one time, I went into a long-haired, quasi-biker bar dressed in corporate gear from my job. Guys bumped into me walking by me, looked at me funny, etc. The very next time I came in I had on blue jeans, boots, and a black t-shirt. This time, I was given space while walking by, etc.! I was one of them. Hmmmm....I guess transguys have to worry about passing too.
Thank you, gentlemen, for sharing your experiences. It is indeed an eye-opener.
Good on ya for patiently educating those of us what need educatin'.
I think sometimes people mean well, but might say something stupid unintentionally because they don't understand who you are. It's in our animal natures to at least somewhat go by first impressions. It's a survival instinct... but some people take it way too far and never get to know the individual. And then some people are just jerks. :(
I find this really interesting. I had ignorantly assumed that FtM would have an easier time than MtF. I was certainly wrong. It seems we all get treated rather horridly at times. Well at least we all have one another to talk to.:hugs:
yeah, it's not easier. It's equally hard in different ways....
I thought of something the other day. Has anyone ever had to deal with being called "it"? That's another one I've learned to watch out for...
I think this is somehow related but I've perceived that some straight people think that trans people (tv's and MtF cders in particular) seem to go about life trying to pork others and that they're ready to give a b-job to anyone who asks them.
I think that if tv's or MtF cders try to help someone I don't know by telling him how to get to a place or even smile, some think that Tv's or MtF are trying to pick them up. Some might be on the hunt for a quickie but that doesn't mean we're all are like that.
Does this or something similar happen to transmen/ FtM crossdressers?