Hard to post here

I've been lurking so much and writing so little. On the one hand, there is so much to say. On the other hand, I have had a whole lot of the marginalization that seems to be a part of the ftm experience.

It's a little irritating to be drawn relentlessly into series of realizations about the nature of me and my concept of self only to have any attempt at even mentioning it being met with a whole lot of *yawn*. Or the helpful individuals who lectured me about how rude it is to use the word "queer".

My general attitude towards me being stuck in a female life that is so full there is just no room for contemplating transition at all can pretty much be summed up in the phrase "Suck it up Marine!" (Although the Marines wouldn't take me.) I don't like a lot of fuss and bother, another reason I present as female nearly all the time, so I generally just deal.

But from time to time that is unsatisfying. I find myself very self-consciously self-editing. Instead of trying to be as expressive as possible for the sake of precision, I find myself deleting everything I write before posting. Saying anything at all doesn't seem masculine enough around real guys who have really transitioned/really are transitioning.

In my daily life I struggle to deal gracefully, or at least appropriately, with trying to fit in to various feminine things that I just don't understand. One of the places I work is staffed entirely with slightly older women and the chintz and scented candles and fancy teas and generally overpowering femininity of the place really gets to me, things like that. Or a yoga instructor always maundering on aobut how various poses are so good for "all those girl problems like bloating and such. (Yuk! Please don't call me a girl, and can we not talk about bloating?) But here, I find myself self-editing into silence.

A little while ago, I wrote, and actually posted, some thoughts about childhood and identity, and that sort of took my breath away. Somehow I've conflated silence with masculinity. I guess just because I find myself needing to keep quiet about my feelings much of the time doesn't mean that this in necesarily a part of the male experience, or a prerequisite for somehow qualifying as transmasculine or genderqueer or whatever the heck I am (I prefer gender ambivalent, but that seems to be a phrase only I use)

Still, oddly frustrated and uncomfortable by the opportunity to finally stop being frustrated and uncomfortable. Irritating paradox.

Not sure what to tell you, Alpha. Maybe start small until you get comfortable here. And times are changing. Our fathers and grandfathers may have had a taboo about talking about their feelings, but we don't have to. :hugs:

Thanks Anne. Yeah, that's what I've been doing. I seem to be doing an orgy of posting tonight, probably because of the combination of can't seem to get to sleep and prescription pain meds loosening my metaphorical tongue.

I guess I'm just curious if anyone else feels similarly. While I have loved the idea of gender flexibility since I learned that such a thing is so common and has such a vibrant culture, the flamboyance of many aspects of MtF culture are so very foreign to me.

I don't want to "dress" or have special garments or anything. I just want wear a decent suit, have a dignified voice, be strong and look, well, not so feminine. Seems like masculinity for me is a lot about not having to endlessly dissect gender.

So here I be, endlessly dissecting the desire to not have to endlessly focus on perfecting one's gendered appearance. :hypnotized:

ETA: And funnily enough, I'm of Jewish descent, from a fundamentalist background. I really don't come from a culture of men hiding their feelings at all. That seems to be my own bizarre creation/interpretation. How weird is that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpha12

I seem to be doing an orgy of posting tonight, probably because of the combination of can't seem to get to sleep and prescription pain meds loosening my metaphorical tongue.

---

Haha, good. :)
...Hope you're feeling better soon though.

Quote:

---

I guess I'm just curious if anyone else feels similarly.

---

Yeah, but not about talking about feelings. My hangup is about asking for help. I don't mind at all if someone asks me for help, and don't think badly of the person, but I can't shake the (possibly irrational) feeling that for me, it's a sign of weakness.

Quote:

---

I don't want to "dress" or have special garments or anything. I just want wear a decent suit, have a dignified voice, be strong and look, well, not so feminine.

---

Yeah, I could never pass for a guy, and I don't feel a need to transition. I just want to be seen as less of a wuss. That about sums it up.

Quote:

---

So here I be, endlessly dissecting the desire to not have to endlessly focus on perfecting one's gendered appearance. :hypnotized:

---

:doh: Stop over-thinking it, willya? Just be yourself, whoever that is at any given moment.

Quote:

---

ETA: And funnily enough, I'm of Jewish descent, from a fundamentalist background.

---

By the way, Jewish guys are hot. :we:

Quote:

---

I really don't come from a culture of men hiding their feelings at all. That seems to be my own bizarre creation/interpretation. How weird is that?

---

Sounds pretty normal to me. We pick things up (good and bad) not only from our family, but from just about everywhere else in society. It's a pain to unlearn them. Even when intellectually we know some things make no sense, it can be hard to shake certain thought patterns.

Eh, I'm a lawyer. Overthinking rather goes with the territory.

The pain meds are all part of the gender issue. Recovering from from diagnostics to figure out if my shoulder can be repaired. Tore it the first time playing judo--in an all-male dojo dominated by large and heavy former military types.

Re-tore it recently bench-pressing. More than a little crushed that my modest attempts at building some upper body muscle are likely permanently at an end. Not even gonna try explaining gender dysphoria to an orthopedic surgeon. I've been watching muscle practically melt away for the past couple of weeks. This is a downright bitter experience.

But yes, agreement on the cultural oddities and the desirability of getting past them.

Hmmm. I'll admit it. Someone who runs around in circles philosophically will bore me (if that's what you mean by getting a lot of *yawn*). I am new to this place so I don't know the climate or people here at all really. The forums are a tad slow and the rules are also semi-strict so I am very careful.

I am not sure why you feel stuck as a female... I mean, yes, FtMs cannot get penises, but we can do just about everything else. The way I see it is that the vast majority of people will not be seeing me naked, so "passing" won't be an issue. My lack of penis will really only be an issue in the bedroom, and I know many FtMs can work around that. I will never be satisfied with my genitals but I also cannot "settle" with being a woman. Because I'm not a woman. Even if I couldn't change my outside, I'd still be a man.

Presenting as female was the worst "fuss and bother" possible for me. Anything would be better. I could not "deal" with being a girl because I was unable to really be, behave, or look like one in the first place. Even before transition I was too masculine. I did not really have much of a female puberty so I've pretty much always looked like a little boy. I was always playing catch up and trying to be like the "other" girls but it simply was not possible for me. I had to give in and do what nature intended. Oddly enough, many believe our transitions to be unnatural, but for me, nothing could be more natural than being a man.

I really feel you should speak your mind, and that you shouldn't let it bother you if we think it's "too feminine" or whatever. I know I am a chatterbox and fairly feminine in my uh... "way" of going about things. I am very inspired by a man who was very much like me, and nothing was "girl" about him. I encourage all FtMs to find a cisgender man who is like them so they can feel grounded and safe and secure in their manhood. If you have to, look at gay men for a point of reference. It really does help to say, "Hey, he's a man, and he's more feminine than me even!" It helps you realize that men come in all shapes and sizes.

Also, I don't think transitioning makes us "real men." I think I was a "real man" as soon as I came out and started presenting as male.

Honestly. Despite not understanding women, I do understand femininity. I would love an environment filled with scented candles and fancy teas. I'm that kind of man. I really like the gentle, the calm, the peaceful, and the heartwarming. Some things about me seem overpoweringly "feminine" but then I turn around and say, "No, guys A B and C like/d the same things I do, and there's no doubt in my mind they were men." Again, that point of reference helps. I remember that men like me did and do exist.

When I was in yoga, my instructor did mention "girl issues" and how they relate to yoga. But I was not the only guy in the class. It wasn't like I was the odd one out. And heck, myself and other guys DID do the poses that help for "female health." Because it's yoga. We're not just gonna sit out and watch during the "girly poses." Yoga is an ancient art and was originally practiced by only men.

A lot male-identified people, trans or not, get wrapped up in what's "masculine." Gender expression is variant among both sexes. There are feminine men and masculine women. That "reversal" of roles does not invalidate their identities, just like wearing ascots and cowboy boots does not invalidate mine...

Really I think the most important here is to not worry about sounding "too feminine." They way I see it, men are generally blunt and open. Withholding in my mind is a feminine thing to do. So I say let all your guts out, even if that means writing annoying rants. I'm pretty sure after some time you'll let a lot of that old stuff out, and eventually have less to say. I've found that I can write massive rants but still manage to sound masculine. That is my nature... Now even if you do end up sounding feminine, remember that men can be feminine and still be men.

Edit: Whoops, sorry if any of this was intimidating or aggressive. I can get kind of like that sometimes and not watch myself. I have a bad habit of dealing some dishes cold. Just know I mean you the best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bones

Edit: Whoops, sorry if any of this was intimidating or aggressive. I can get kind of like that sometimes and not watch myself. I have a bad habit of dealing some dishes cold. Just know I mean you the best.

---

Somehow, after your litany of reasons why my approach to my life is wrong and inappropriate and your recognition that your litany was aggressive and the implicit suggestion that you intimidate me, I find your insistence of well-meaning a little meaningless.

If you want to intimidate me you are going to need to try harder, but I don't think that this is really the place for those games.

Alpha, I read what you said. I am a cisgen woman. So I cannot talk from 'ftm experience'. But I get the feeling your mind is shooting thoughts in all directions. And you are ambivalent about your gender and transition is just a small seed of thought in your mind.

Here is what you can do:

A) read as much as you can about transexualism, transgender issues.

B) dont try to fix and force yourself into an identity so you can 'get rid of thinking of the issue'. Don't tear yourself for answers either. The human mind is amazing. When you are ready to cope with the realization of what and who you are, answers about your identity will bubble to the surface. To ensure this happens faster, read and read and read and read. And meditate and meditate and meditate and meditate. The answers of the universe are ALL inside you. When you meditate they come to the surface of your consciousness, faster.

I hope this helps you a bit. hope to see you more on the forum. Take care.
There is a zen saying 'When the student is ready, the teacher will come'.

alpha, I get where you're coming from. I'm also kind of gender-weird. Before I accepted that my marriage was over completely, I pretty much accepted that I would never be able to transition and would have to find a way to balance 'being technically female' and not being 'feminine'. Funny how having to start from square one makes you rethink things, but whatever.

I get feeling outnumbered, even here. Most of these guys are either actively transitioning or desperately trying to. I don't even bind every day and I'm not sure if I'll ever want to have surgery (and when the hell am I ever going to get 8 thousand dollars anway). And like you I don't talk a whole lot. I don't know if that's 'masculine' or just me being me. In my experience, as much as guys say they don't like talking, they do talk about their problems (if not their feelings so much outside of 'this pisses me off'). So...I don't really know.

I can relate to the bulk of your existential woes and your sticky gendered paradoxes, Alpha. Good for you for voicing them; that sort of stuff really needs to be said. There are numerous paradoxes that transpeople are living in, and yet most transpeople are curiously blind to them. And at worst, they actually reinforce the paradoxes and problems and make their brothers, sisters, and other-gendered siblings actually feel bad. How is that progress?

So once again, good for you. Thinking makes life awesome, even if the process sucks. :hugs: You'll be (and probably already are) a better person for it, identity and otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpha12

I prefer gender ambivalent, but that seems to be a phrase only I use

---

That sounds like a good phrase. I don't fit neatly into a category or box as far as gender, or in almost any other area of my life for that matter... although society pretty much demands that I do. *shrug*

Welcome to the forum Alpha nice to meet you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpha12

Somehow, after your litany of reasons why my approach to my life is wrong and inappropriate and your recognition that your litany was aggressive and the implicit suggestion that you intimidate me, I find your insistence of well-meaning a little meaningless.

If you want to intimidate me you are going to need to try harder, but I don't think that this is really the place for those games.

---

Fair enough. Though I did not make any implicit suggestion in any fashion. I was trying to prevent your lashing out because I had anticipated it but I guess that was simply an inevitable consequence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bones

I was trying to prevent your lashing out because I had anticipated it but I guess that was simply an inevitable consequence.

---

Isn't it just amazing the way our passive-aggressive attempts to control other people so rarely work out the way we decide they should? :heehee:

Mod mode

Everybody better have it out of their systems now because I want this thread back on topic.

/Mod mode

You never said how old you are. I am 57 and over the years have gone though the same thinks. Take it slow we are all trying to figure it out, some are closer than other but I think we are all in the dark. The only one that counts is you and how you feel. What other say take it or leave it. We are all on different paths. I read most of the post and use what right for me.
Take care hugs

being trans means we don't have to box our selves in as being the same as the next man or woman :)...not everything that is wrote here do i agree with or feel i relate to...so sometimes i too find it hard to post on certain threads even though i've been here for years, we are all on the different versions of the same path but that doesn't mean we can relate to everything someone else says, all we can do is post our own truths and with a bit of luck, it will help someone with their own truths...keep on posting Alpha, you'll find your own way

Really good advice, Kieron. I think we do really need to keep in mind that men and women (and everyone else) come in all shapes and sizes. There are no expectations here. In this forum I see a lot of very reasonable people willing to hear you out, even if they disagree. I've only seen a little bit of bucking heads and really people seem to work things out quite civilly. So I think even someone with a "bizarre" gender identity/presentation would feel fairly at home here. :happy:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bones

Really good advice, Andrew.

---

its Kieron...

I can fix that.
I have a habit of calling people by their last name (if it is visible). :doh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpha12

In my daily life I struggle to deal gracefully, or at least appropriately, with trying to fit in to various feminine things that I just don't understand. One of the places I work is staffed entirely with slightly older women and the chintz and scented candles and fancy teas and generally overpowering femininity of the place really gets to me, things like that.

---

I can't offer advice or anything. I'm not trans. But I can draw an interesting parallel. I shuddered when I read your above paragraph. "Overpowering femininity" is a great description. It reminds me of my late step-grandma's and my mother's houses. Chintz and florals, etageres filled with porcelain ladies, pom-poms on the curtains, frills and doilies on all the pillows, the sickly sweet smell of the place. Her finely powdered, pale face with fragile, flabby-soft skin and red-red lipstick. Her prim and proper dresses and hearing the clack-clack of her heels on the linoleum floor. All accompanied by this sense of decorum about what *A Lady* should say and how she should always behave. Ick. It just made me determined to not be like that. How could my grandfather and my father live in places like this?

My mother trying to tell me that when I grew up I should always keep myself looking nice for MY HUSBAND (she even told me that I had to be especially careful to always wash down there so it wouldn't smell bad), should always have great meals ready when HE came home, the place looking nice and tidied, and the kids all nice and neat and behaved. Double ick. That's not a partner, it's a servant. I always hated pink and those frilly, catty, mindless girls at school. Thank God I was a teenager after the 60s. There were enough of us who weren't into the makeup.

I remember the women at work with all their little cutesy things all over their desks and pinned all over their bulletin boards. I didn't get it either.

Anyway, I'm sorry for what you're going through and I hope you'll work through it soon. I do find it interesting that I can relate to some of what you've said. The irony though, is I do use the makeup now to hide the signs of aging. Who would have guessed this 35 years ago? :p

<adminmode>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bones

I can fix that.

---

Yes you fixed it... however... an apology wouldn't have gone amiss would it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bones

I have a habit of calling people by their last name (if it is visible). :doh:

---

Maybe you have a habit of doing that, but imho, it's just plain rude! Arrogance doesn't do anyone any favours... being polite and knowing where to draw the line does... ¿comprende?

</adminmode>

Hi Alpha 12,

I am Kaz, I have no need nor reason for rank nor number. I am who I am and I hope you can accept this.

PM me.

Love Kaz xx :hugs:

A long time ago, when I starting to use the web, I was also interested in flying kites. My first large kite was a 12-foot Delta, a kite so called because of its shape.

I have used iterations of greek letters and numbers, usually 12, as identifiers for various things ever since. The numbers are handy because often the letters are not available in large communities without a number. Alpha12 is close to meaningless in and of itself. If you prefer, you may call me Theo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpha12

you may call me Theo.

---

Hey I really like that name, its a good strong name :)