Helping the "cause"

Some CDers here and on other sites indicate they feel that a good job must be done on our feminine appearance, especially when going out in public to help the "cause" of CDing. Slipshod feminine dressing, they say. works against the "cause" and makes others shun us and/or berate us. They often cite that doing a good job of dressing helps us to "pass" or "blend" and look like women. But, in reality does "passing" or "blending" really help any "cause" especially if others think we are women? I thought the idea is "Hey I'm a man but I like to dress as a woman, I have rights." I've never seen any formal declaration of anyone striving for CD rights, nor have I ever seen any "CD Suffragettes" put in jail for picketing, sit ins or marches. Personally I feel the best way to help any such "cause" is to not make a big deal about it and just be ourselves. That would tend to win others over one person at a time the way I see it. :)

I don't worry about a "cause" but I do think that when John or Jane Q. Public sees an obvious male prancing around in public in the all too common hooker's outfit it puts a bad taste in their mouth. In that sense it's "hurting the cause" because it makes it more difficult for those of us who would like to just slide by under the radar. It becomes the mental image they see when they hear the term "crossdresser".

In any 'cause', there are going to be some on the front lines, and others who lend support as best we can from a distance. I do my best to preach toleration for all, whenever I see or hear someone making fun of others the way so many make fun of us. However, I won't out myself just to further the cause. I feel that I've had enough misery in my life and simply don't need another bit of spending a lot of time arguing with morons over a case for crossdressing rights. There are some who will never accept us, and no amount of arguing will help. Things are changing; the current teenagers are way more tolerant of gender variations, and hopefully that will continue to expand. But it won't happen soon enough; those of my generation won't live long enough for that. So in the meantime, many of us simply take the path of least resistance: We just stay out of the way, and often, out of sight.

Hi,

Lets look at another side , ... The look... seems to be much of what this is about yet you dont find many women hiding them selfs in public with makeup hair and adornment,s or disguising them selfs most you see their face and more so those with short hair , and when you you talk with them its natural not forced , just their normal voice ,

and are they accepted in the normal world of detail commitees work and clubs sports and so on , most are just accepted for who they are no hiding no cover up and no trying to be other than they are for most any way .

So would those dressers walk down the road in a dress or skirt and lets say no makeup no added hair or wigs show your face and to those you work with and know in other words no hiding behind a false mask just talk normaly and be who you are no disguise,

Ill concede a little makeup lippy some adornments and look nice at the very least, and perfume now is that acceptable and come join a group or two be involved with your communitys around where you live be on a commitee or two,

Did the men in the 1400 -1700 dress like women skirts dress,s makeup heavy perfume adornment heeled shoes and the whole of it yet how many were trying to be like women with breasts and hiding what ever again very few if at all

so how does that sound, best get my flack jacket quick smart..... maybe i know that answer ....nope....

yes in society... you... have rights yet for men or many men they wont more.

You brought up about CD suffragettes funny that not seen any put in jail for picketing sit ins marches ,or other,

Yet when.... we.... females did picketing marches and stood up for women to have a say and not be slaves and owned by men and propiety rights and voting , we were abused thrown in jail beaten starved and thrown out on the streets and thats okay , well 1860 -1920.s ,

Yet who lies to their wifes girlfriends and new relationships starting up all in the name of dressing and thats okay as well ,

And then the demanding of your right to dress when and where ever .

I wonder why so many wifes dont like or put up with it was that in the signed contract... you... signed the day... you... married,,, your,,, spouse .

You wont acceptance then come clean and dont hide tell your family and friends and you know as well as i you most likely will have a big lose ,

The right to dress earn it dont demand it be open and no hiding then maybe just maybe you may be accepted, because you are man enough to admit you are a little different from other men .

...noeleena...

Kate,
Media stereotypes could be behind some of those feelings ! The public get the impression that a Cder wants to look like a cross between a hooker and a pantomime dame ! They probably didn't think that they may have just walked passed a CDer and not realised it ! The problem is we are far too over sensitive, everything must be perfect to blend without causing ridicule or embarrassment and in doing so we go OTT ! We have to accept we step outside the normal box !

Where I live CD's are pretty well received so its not a problem.
90% of them are "blenders". Most people don't pay that much attention so If they see womens clothes,hair,make up they assume its a woman.

I definitely think that wherever a type of persons are discriminated, there must be union to fight in some way. Then there you have a cause! The thing here is that going in public and expect for acceptance from others means that you're putting yourself as highest priority. You need to love yourself as a whole to be capable of loving others, and I'm talking about your family, friends, work mates and the rest...
hugs!
Gabriela

I think wearing bedroom clothes in public is not appropriate regardless of the gender of the wearer. I also think that when I am in public I only need the worry about making myself happy with my clothing choices - i do not wear a wig, but I do like wearing minimal makeup and jewelry. Not sure if being concerned about the cause has anything to do with how I present.

Of course each of us who goes out in public is deemed as representing other CDrs and the broader transgendered population. As such, we do have an obligation to present ourselves to the best of our ability., and appropriate to the situation. Those rare individuals who can consistently pass are not detracting in any way from the impression...in fact just the opposite. Those who pass or blend make it easier for those who follow by illustrating how blurred the gender lines can be.

Sometimes Miss, You kind of said it all for me, too. I was bullied by older twin brothers, also by boys at school many years, still bullied by evil older brothers, mean sister, and was picked on at work, wet the bed until 20. I have had enough ridicule and emotional torture, and am hesitant to go out in public much, and receive MORE. Times i have been out, i got laughed at, pointed at, parent told kids to not look. I still take a very rare trip out the door, and I agree with Kate, one person at a time, but i , in my gut feeling, realize, that the vast majority of people think crossdressing is unnatural, and strange, and a small minority will actually accept it, though more may tolerate it.

I don't think that there is a cause per se, but there are definitely issues. I think the main issues are three:

1. Crossdressing should be legal everywhere. This is no longer an issue in the USA, but it is still an issue in many parts of the world.

2. Crossdressers should be allowed to use the restroom that corresponds to their presentation gender. A less ideal alternative would be unisex toilets, but only if they were commonplace.

3. The public needs to be educated about us. The public needs to see us as ordinary people. We want the same things that everybody wants: a safe environment for ourselves and our children, respect for our lifestyle choices, a good job that provides financial security for our families, the chance to excel at our chosen profession, and a better life for our children.

I can understand why some of us are turned off by the idea of a 60 year old man parading around in hot pants and fishnet stockings, because it perpetuates a cliche that is untrue for most of us, and it is visible. The much more common CD who passes, or at least blends, is not.

Washington State has many law protecting all transgenders: gays, lesbians, transgenders, cross dressers. We are protected under the hate crime laws. We are protected in housing, employment, public accommodations, etc. If one just wants to wear women's clothing because of the style, feel of the cloth, array of colors, etc and wear a beard and have hairy arms and chest, go for it. I think the majority of us do not know why we do what we do. There is something that is working in our brains that say we want to appear as a woman. There is some inner conflict that says in order to feel at ease with ourselves we must appear as a woman. I lost any acceptance from my wife when she said she could not understand why I bought a bra when I have nothing to "stuff in it!" She could not figure that out! I cannot either other than it is a part of me trying to emulate someone I really know I physically am not!

Since Washington State passed the laws and my mid size city further enhanced the law I have yet to read about a cross dresser asserting their right to dress at work. Cross dressers seem to dress as a hobbyist. And, yes, there are news reports of conflicts arising with men and women transitioning. But, I do not consider them to be cross dressers.

While "passing" is not essential for the cause.
A bearded, or NON-Passing lady will cause a public reaction (even a non-verbal reaction) when using the ladies room, or the mens room, or the changing rooms.
Also there has been big public backlash and Media Hype when 30 or so, in see through nighties were working the streets of a local shopping area at night.

So for me - helping the cause means showing the public that there are some of us, who are just "regular girls" wanting a normal "girls life", and that we are not all night workers in see through nighties, trying to make money from their dads and husbands

If we do a good enough job, there's no issue as we won't be recognized. :)

For most of us, we are detectable only under close examination. Most people do not examine us closely enough to see anything but a woman.

Someone who sees me closely may detect something out of the ordinary. When fully dressed I could be a CDer, or I might just be a tall 50something woman who inherited some unfortunate genes. Politeness demands that those I interact with acknowledge me as I present and I conform to societal norms to make this easier for them.

Most CDers, while not adhering to society's norm concerning presenting as their birth gender, do adhere closely to society's norm for the gender binary while dressed. For whatever reason, we want to be acknowledged as female and we won't do anything that might preclude that.

Now, I'm not so careful when in male mode. I won't wear a skirt, but I will wear clothes and colors that are androgynous. Being misgendered in male mode doesn't bother me at all. My feeling is that I am not perceived as a CDer in this mode, simply a male with somewhat effeminate tastes.

The one bugaboo seems to be the matter of hair, both facial and body. Even GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair. My electrologist makes the bulk of her income from this. Facial hair is probably the strongest gender cue, to the point where a "bearded lady" is a stereotypical circus freak. The combination of an undeniably male cue like a beard and undeniable female cue like a skirt and hose seems to be culturally jarring both to ordinary members of society and to many of us. Unfortunately, this is the only kind of CDer that many members of society have ever perceived, since the ones who blend go unnoticed.

This leads to a considerable problem. I desire so much to be accepted as a woman when dressed that there is no way that I would want to acknowledge that I am TG. If I am doing a good job in this I'm obviously not a good ambassador for the TG community.

I don't really have a solution to this, as being "Loud and Proud" about being TG is not compatible with presenting as a normal female.

Presentation matters because you have to get through the presentation to see to substance. When someone is offended by something rightly or wrongly pushing their offense to extreme's will only make the skeptics react more strongly and be even less amenable to tolerance or reason. It's not just the case with crossdresser's. Anyone who is obviously a member of a stigmatized group that presents themselves poorly does a disservice to those who wish to promote a less off-putting view of that group.

Most here may wish that no one would be ridiculed for their clothing choices. But a morbidly obese unshaven man in a mini-dress and 6" heels strutting around the mall will not make people that are already skeptical of crossdressers inclined to move past their preconceptions and look for the substance.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

If we do a good enough job, there's no issue as we won't be recognized. :)

For most of us, we are detectable only under close examination. Most people do not examine us closely enough to see anything but a woman.

Someone who sees me closely may detect something out of the ordinary. When fully dressed I could be a CDer, or I might just be a tall 50something woman who inherited some unfortunate genes. Politeness demands that those I interact with acknowledge me as I present and I conform to societal norms to make this easier for them.



This leads to a considerable problem. I desire so much to be accepted as a woman when dressed that there is no way that I would want to acknowledge that I am TG.

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I don't see it that way in my 10 years of being out in the mainstream..You "pass" to some,and others you don't. That is the way it is. So,because you look so presentable in appearance and manners,ALL accept you and the people[mostly observant women] are impressed by you which goes to further the "T cause". So it does not matter if you think you pass cause mostly people are very polite and accepting to those that try and are comfortable and confident in their own skin.

I do my best to present female but know that I don't pass. I usually dress neatly but not age appropriately so I don't blend and therefore attract a degree of interest. If passing or blending is the goal then some would say that I'm a poor role model for the 'cause'.

What I am though is genuinely friendly, caring and thoughtful about those that I meet. I am very fortunate in femme presentation to have a number of really good friends. Sometimes we get too hung up on presentation when what really matters is how we treat people and the positive vibes we give. That is what helps the 'cause'.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Even GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair. My electrologist makes the bulk of her income from this. Facial hair is probably the strongest gender cue, to the point where a "bearded lady" is a stereotypical circus freak.

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That's it! I'll get to the thread topic in a moment, but this is the answer to the CDers who often say in this forum that it's not fair that women can be masculine, but men can't be feminine without being judged. Women ARE judged just as severely when they show cues that are commonly associated with males and facial hair is an excellent example of this. I just finished looking at cosmetic procedure statistics in another thread and there are indeed many women who get their facial hair removed.

OK … back to the topic at hand. There do seem to be two major camps here, those who know they don't pass so they are satisfied with presenting the best they can as males presenting as females (what else can they do?), and those who wish to and feel they pass as women.

It's debatable whether people in the mainstream do read the members of the second camp. I tend to think that most do when they take the time to look closely and especially if there is personal interaction. The reason I say this is that TSs who have been on hormones for years go ahead with FFS. If they weren't read (and these are people who live full time, have had electrolysis, have their own hair and nails, and of course are on HRT), I dare say that FFS would not be necessary.

Age comes into play here as well. I think it is easier for both a young person and an older person to pass, but less so for someone in between (generally), unless they've won the TG genetic lottery. Obviously younger males haven't had their features fully altered yet by the continuing effect of testosterone that comes with age, but older males tend to be subconsciously compared to older females who have lost estrogen (people do sort and classify others according to age brackets among other things) so the playing field is more level; there is less contrast between a 60s-ish+ male and female than there is when they are both in their 30s or 40s (generally).

So the question - does it really matter if a TG is obviously or less obviously male? I think to the general public it doesn't matter. Most will lump everyone in the same boat, simply because their knowledge of gender diversity is so limited. But, the way they look at it will vary. Some will be judgmental, some will be mildly accepting although they will have the NIMBY attitude, a few will champion the TG for having the courage to be herself, and some will shrug their shoulders and move on. But it is true that the vast majority will keep their opinions to themselves at least in the presence of the TG (I'm reminded of Isha's mall experiment), except of course the people who have something positive to say.

This was difficult for my SO to come to terms with. She did realize eventually that the people she interacted with directly knew that she was not a GG and for many years before this, she would not have gone out without the certainty that she was not being read. But, knowing this now does not deter her from self-expression.

The cause to me is that individuals should be able to wear whatever they want to. If one wants to dress in a way that shocks the general public they still aren't hurting anyone. I see people dressed (not CDs so much) outlandishly quite often which sometimes I find disrespectful, but it's their right. I'm for individual freedom, not group think.

I have to disagree with the notion that dressing exclusively for oneself, even in a deliberately shocking manner, is solely a matter of personal freedom. I can imagine a lot of different get ups that one might find personally fulfilling which would violate any reasonable standard of decency...stuff I wouldn't want my kids to see at the mall. And to narrow a bit to the topic, one outlandish CD presentation may reinforce stereotypes that hold back all of us who go out in public.

I don't wish to intrude upon, or interject myself into the lives of strangers, by virtue of how I'm dressed. I wish to leave them to their lives and live my own. That's not group think, but rather common courtesy.

Kate - I'm assuming your use of "bunny ears quotations" around "cause" indicates an acknowledgement that the "cause" is ill-defined at best, or just fragmented at worst... :) With the exception of our full-time TS members, we represent such a diverse group that I think we struggle to understand the motivations of many segments and therefore what "cause" there could be to have us all support..? Or perhaps you're indicating you think the "cause" of "passing" CDers is a little demeaning to others who would struggle more with blending...? In which case, I would probably agree with you... :straightface:

There are some of us who - as others have said - are gifted with being more blendable than many... blessed they may be, but the need and drive to present femme for those who are not so fortuitously endowed is no less... To adapt your example (Kate), it would have been like the GG suffragettes of Edwardian times having some sort of arbitrary bar against GGs who weren't fashionable (or some other subjective criteria...). We have quite a few members here who choose to present androgynous, some who present 'mixed' (NDDs - 'neck-down-dressers'), and many who are probably somewhere in between, but from a support forum perspective, I don't believe we are justified in questioning their motivation or suggesting that they are not part of this community. This is no different to the vanilla world where most folk dress to conform, some dress 'well' and others not so, and some dress deliberately to be non-conforming and in some cases - yes - to be provocative or shocking.

I think too much is read into our behaviour and not as much into the haters in society. Most people will generally be accepting of anyone regardless of the nature of their dress, as long as it doesn't impact them detrimentally.

The haters and bigots will find a reason to ridicule, abuse or hate however well or unconventionally we're dressed - I don't believe that 'convincing' CDers dressing their best will do much to sway these people from their unaccepting stance. Sadly... :(

Katey x

I wear what are considered women's clothes. I am obviously male, since i have a full beard, and I still have a construction worker's body and am not overweight, and I wear the same as what women would be wearing in the environments I go to, and I have been driving to Rainbow Gatherings all over the US dressed like this and getting out and eating in restaurants and checking into motels and campgrounds in small towns, and mostly I get no reactions, and of the ones I do get, there are more positive ones than negative. What can I say? I can do it, and you all can too.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Women ARE judged just as severely when they show cues that are commonly associated with males and facial hair is an excellent example of this...

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They are judged, but I disagree on the "as severely" part. A woman showing masculine cues is considered "edgy", as evidenced by the various "man-tailored" fashions that crop up periodically. You seldom see "woman-tailored" looks for men. Levi's tried marketing close-fitting "ex-girlfriend jeans" but they were unsuccessful. Here's a clip of the Ellen Degeneris show where she not only ridicules a man wearing the jeans ("take those off so you can have more kids"), but afterwards takes stabs at males wearing panties and dresses. Ms. Degeneris should know better, but being a accepted "masculine L" does not seem to give her very much empathy for those who are "feminine Ts."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ktXa8fvB8

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Originally Posted by ReineD

OK … back to the topic at hand. There do seem to be two major camps here, those who know they don't pass so they are satisfied with presenting the best they can as males presenting as females (what else can they do?), and those who wish to and feel they pass as women....

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There's a third camp (though the camps don't have distinct boundaries). There are those who wish to dress in feminine fashion but who don't present as female, stereotyped as the "bearded guy in a dress." Philosophically, I feel empathy for them and think that if they were accepted it would be better for everyone. Despite this, I still get a sense that, by so drastically flaunting societal norms, they are not really helping overall acceptance because they are too far from the norm to be accepted and, by association, it causes the rest of us to be misunderstood.

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I can imagine a lot of different get ups that one might find personally fulfilling which would violate any reasonable standard of decency...stuff I wouldn't want my kids to see at the mall.

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Just avoid Walmart when shopping with your children. Kids are exposed to so much now days aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Eryn

... a clip of the Ellen Degeneris show where she not only ridicules a man wearing the jeans ("take those off so you can have more kids"), but afterwards takes stabs at males wearing panties and dresses. Ms. Degeneris should know better, but being a accepted "masculine L" does not seem to give her very much empathy for those who are "feminine Ts."

...

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Eryn, I totally disagree. Ellen is a comedian. Her job is to make the show funny but she does not take a stab at cross dressers at all. She is drawing the ridiculous line from "ex-girlfriend jeans" to mother-in-law panties, ex-wife, mistress, clothing. The premise is base don what Levi's launched. All of it was meant in jest and was intended to be ridiculous.