Pushing CDing Acceptance Versus Pushing other CDs

I have started this tread to expand on a side topic of the "Trying on clothes, but hairy" post in the Clothing forum with out farther stealing the thread.

http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67256

I would love to hear other peoples thoughts on the following two questions.

- Do we as the TG community (CD,TG,TS,..) as whole need to push society more and get out more to increase acceptance? And how or what are ways we do this?

- Do we as CD's, TG's, TS's push others by the way in which we word some of our posts? Are we pushing them to be more of a CD/TG when we say things like:

"You can't be a gurl without shaved legs."

Need to PASS to go out.

One must act and be as girly as possible.

A guy in a skirt is a terrible look.

You can not have facial hair and be a CDer.

... a real CDer ....



I personally agree with Jamie very much so in that we need to each be a an advocate for all TG's. But at the same time we need to do this within our comfort and safety levels for us, our families and others.

When women pushed for rights, few husbands were going to divorce them and besides they were just woman, possessions of a male. Then at least in the USA during the war the women went into the factories and other places and took the place of men doing a man's job. When the blacks pushed for rights they had little to loose as they were already thought of as nothing and low life to many. In the gay movement, they did not have spouses or kids to think about, it was mostly them self they had to worry about.

Yes IMHO, we need to push for rights and acceptance of all TG's. Yes we should show others ways this can be done, but also need to respect each of us has our own life to live.

:rant: :rant: :rant:

And while we are pushing for TG acceptance I think we need to be very careful and not push TG's. So many TG's seem to just be finding out information and beginning a new task or continuing the task of figuring out who they are. We need to encourage others to look within them selves and see who they are and seek help from loved ones that are close to them and qualified professionals if needed. Encourage them to be their self and not be following some one else blindly. And we need to show them that being a TG is a wide, very wide spectrum and not just one type of person and actions. Each TG is very different, just as each person is very different. We need to encourage them to be them self, but also to stay within their comfort and responsibilities. Just because one CD/TG/TS does something does not mean each of us needs to do it or even try it. IMHO, if each of us truly looks within ourself, and sometimes with the proper guidance, we will know who and what we are. We can then be encouraged and guided by others to do and be who we are at our own pace and comfort level.

There is often a fine line between pushing for TG acceptance and pushing other TG's. And also a fine line between helping and encouraging other TG's to be who they are and Pushing them to do and be more.

:rant:

I don't believe I push other CDs to do anything EXCEPT to learn to love and accept who they are, and to try to find acceptable compromises with spouses that will consider such.

Now what can we do to push acceptance in general? I have started outting myself to anyone I believe that won't just up and kick the snot outta me. I feel if people realize I (in male mode) am the face of CD/TGism instead of the Jerry Springer crowd that just maybe some will think " You know, maybe there is more to this than the crackpots we see on trash TV." And I carry a photo of Em just in case they seem willing to chat further.


Emily Ann

Regardless of any so-called "good" that comes from rules or laws, they always cause some form of suppression or oppression!

This is a wonderful post Kimberly, with a very important message! I agree 100%! Yes, we need to help the world to grow in acceptance, not just for our sake, but for it's own as well! And NO, we don't need more rules to specify how we express our TG-ism as individuals! That's the problem in the 1st place!!
This group over here judging that group over there, who's non-accepting of this group, who tries to subjugate that other group, which wants to eliminate yet another group!!

The only real, working, permanent way is for all individuals & all groups, to be accepting of all others! Period!!
The only way to achieve that is by forgetting concepts like judgment, bigotry, & fear, & by replacing them with love for every one of us as an equal part of a single spirit... including all our many differences!!!

Whew, gotta get offa this soap-box now... getting dizzy! :silly:

Thanks Kimberly!

Loving hugz,

Veronica

P.S.- You rock too Emily, well said!!

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Originally Posted by KimberlyS

- Do we as the TG community (CD,TG,TS,..) as whole need to push society more and get out more to increase acceptance? And how or what are ways we do this?

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YES, because people will only learn when they have something to experience. You can't rise acceptance from the underground or closet.
How ?
The individual has three options:
a) Support those by words and action that are out (everybody can do this)
b) Going out, show yourself and interact with people. (some can, others can't)
c) Support support groups (actively or passively). They usually can reach a broader awareness (if they want to)

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- Do we as CD's, TG's, TS's push others by the way in which we word some of our posts? Are we pushing them to be more of a CD/TG when we say things like:

"You can't be a gurl without shaved legs."

Need to PASS to go out.

One must act and be as girly as possible.

A guy in a skirt is a terrible look.

You can not have facial hair and be a CDer.

... a real CDer ....

---

Yes and no.
Most of us are more or less isolated, and hardly know enough about the own self, nevertheless we tend to generalize our personal view and others tend to buy these generalizations.

There is nothing wrong with a personal view, we don't have any other. It becomes a problem when it is stated and understood as a general law.

A problem we all have/had is that we are not too confident about ourselves and are/feel like an outsider, at least at first.
That's the perfect condition where peer pressure, intended or unintended, will take effect.

IMO you only get rid of it with practice, practice, practice, experience, experience, experience learning a lot about yourself, become more self-secure, and see statements of others more relaxed, being aware that you might become an outsider again.

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I personally agree with Jamie very much so in that we need to each be a an advocate for all TG's. But at the same time we need to do this within our comfort and safety levels for us, our families and others.

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Yes.

Quote:

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When women pushed for rights, few husbands were going to divorce them and besides they were just woman, possessions of a male. Then at least in the USA during the war the women went into the factories and other places and took the place of men doing a man's job. When the blacks pushed for rights they had little to loose as they were already thought of as nothing and low life to many. In the gay movement, they did not have spouses or kids to think about, it was mostly them self they had to worry about.

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IMHO you got that part a bit wrong.
At least in the beginning I guess women had a really hard time. There would be countless examples to mention.
Even famous scientists like Lise Meitner had to take the back door of the university where she has been professor.
(She probably didn't get the Nobel Award, because she was a woman.)
Which man would have wanted a recalcitrant woman, which family would have been proud of her, what she could have done for a living ?
Blacks had to lose their life and physical health and that's partly true still today.
A lot of gays had/have spouses or kids because they tried to adjust to the norms as we do/did. They had and sometimes still have to fear to lose the job and a lot did. In Germany being homosexual was a crime up to the 1970s (the law was not applied though). Look what happens in Poland or other Western countries.

If you want to make a comparison take them as an example for the guts they had/have to do something for their rights on the risk to lose quite something.
A lot did suffer (women, blacks, gays), the majority just did profit from it (women, blacks, gays) without doing anything.
It is/will be the same for TGs.

Well not all of us want to go and push ourselves on an unwilling public so I guess its a No to the first

As for the second I agree with you in that I am sick of the this is the only way to CD brigade (actually mostly TG brigade) we are all individuals and should be treated as such

As Em said.. I don't feel I push anyone to do anything they don't want to do.. I just love what I do and if someone can learn something from me that great.. If not.. Ohh well.. That's life isn't it?

And as far as pushing for acceptence.. I accept my self and that's all that counts... Others can accept me or not and I could give a rat's ass one way or the other... I'm getting out of this what I want based on what I put into it.. That's it plain and simple...

You want to lead the charge, be my guest!! But don't bother holding a place for me in line.. I'll be shopping at the mall, charging my card!! Hehe.

And frankly, I don't even see this fine line between pushing for TG acceptence and pushing TG's.. No corelation except the words "pushing" and TG......

Karren

Look at what we do and our impact.

Where I go: I dress up and go out to party-on-the-town (with and without other TG/TS/CD people), shop, church, men's group/retreats (sometimes), support groups, TG Events.

Behavior: I'm certainly visible, and I don't pass. I AM generally pleasing to the eye of most, if a challenge to the gut instincts and expectations of many. I respect people while I am dressed, and treat them as I would want to be treated. I have fun and don't get sloppy drunk or rudely or overtly sexual (except in circumstances where that is an accepted parameter of the event). I encourage "gurls" who want to come out by meeting them in public, or privately,in Boys or Girls Clothes, as they are comfortable, and sharing what I know or taking them out on the town.


Impact: can't say. I hope it is positive and makes a positive impression for other TG/CD/TS people.

I think it is up to each of us who are OUT THERE to take responsibility for our impact on how other TG/CD/TS people are treated. If I behave respectfully, I contribute to general respect for my kind, and those associated with me. If I don't, I contribute to general disrespect, perhaps even fear, or anger.

I know it is good for me to share my experiences with any TG/CD/TS who is interested in travelling the same roads as I have.

If push a CD/TG/TS OUT THERE *without their permission*, then I am putting my personal agenda and spectatorship ahead of another person's personal growth and well being. Even for lofty spiritual and political aims, this is spiritually defunct, sick. Everyone gets to take their own time, and go their own path.

One difficult patch is counseling with CD/TG/TS who are not yet (fully) out to their loved ones. There are many opinions about how to do this, and all of them have worked or backfired in many cases. The best I can do is share what I have heard and experienced and let the person decide when and how much to come out. Letting someone take ownership of their process of coming out is more important than how they do it. It helps them to realize they are at choice, own the results, and can take the results to heart and can do so without being a victim. Coming out has personal and political consequences. It is spiritually corrupt to put political aims ahead of a persons inner well-being.

If there is ever a TG/CD/TS group dedicating to Outing People in order to expand Awareness...I'll pray as much for them as I do for the ones who out Gay persons for the same reason.

In Love and Service,

:rose: Roberta :rose:

Thank you all for your comments. I love the different views and input.

Emily Ann Brown, I agree, most of us here most of the time are not pushing others or intending to push others. And often where it may seem like some are pushing, it is just in how it has been written or worded. The written while it can be precise, it can also be very vague at times. But I guess after having to deal with a spouse that read posts and every word and phase was picked apart. That made me post and view posts in a different light. How would or could what I write or read be taken if I was a spouse new to CDing or more related to this post, if I was a green CDer here my first week trying to figure out what all this CDing was about and how do I fit in to it or do I even fit in. When I began looking at posts from that view I even got confused and very angry at some people until I could mentally separate that this was just their view or opinion. But as a newbie grossly seeking information, they just tend to absorb everything. I began to write differently. Try it some time looking at all you read as the ultimate in TG information and not knowing anything different.

Veronica, yea lets all just do a group hug in this world. :gh:
Or how does that song go, something like lets pour the world a drink so everyone loosen's and make it a better place.

Marla, I agree every oppressed group fighting for rights has had to live with a lot of injustice, pain, abuse, death and more. But for each one of us personally and individually, from the outside, a CD/TG with a wife, kids, decent job, house in a nice neighborhood, and the "Good" life everyone wants, it looks like we have a lot to loose. Mentally I do wonder at times.

Toyah, just being part of this forum and posting this message and your picture is more pushing "ourselves on an unwilling public" than many are willing to do. Look at those that come here and read to afraid to join or even register let alone post a reply to this or any other thread.

Karren, Oh Karren, you are pushing acceptance just in that you are out there both enfemme doing things and as a male shopping for femme things. You may not be leading the charge, but you are out on the lines doing it and making a difference. You and many others here.

Roberta, you, like Karren and others are out there being yourself and not afraid to be seen for who you are, even if it is as a guy who wears feminine things. I agree I do not know the impact of doing this, but it is much better than sitting in the closet whining to get out.

"I'm certainly visible, and I don't pass. I AM generally pleasing to the eye of most,.....If I behave respectfully, I contribute to general respect for my kind, and those associated with me."

Well said.

Thanks again for the responses.

Yup. Being yourself and accepting who you are and being comfortable with that and accepting others for who they are goes a long way in my book.:happy:

Kimberly please don't think I am against those who go out or that I am not supportive its just not for me or many others.
There are many here who are confused and upset by their dressing I would love to help and do my best but going out and being confused about something thats fun is very alien to me
I try to take everyone at face value but I just don't think anyone should be pushed at all unless a little encouragement towards things they want to do is called for :hugs:

of my first time out, when my racing heart slowed to a somewhat normal rythem, I became comfortable with myself.

After reading many posts by other girls, I gained the confidence, to go out anytime, anyplace, and I do.

Do I push a "TG Agenda"? No, I don't have one. But, if there's one thing very important to me, it's acceptence, so I will explain to people, if I'm asked, who I am and why I dress the way I do.

I went out to brunch this morning, with twenty guys. I was in my normal fem
mode and a customer, not one of our group, said. "Hey, I thought this was an
men only meeting". I smiled and said, "Honey, I'm the lady of the group.
Didn't you ever hear of equal rights?"
He replied, "Oh, sorry."
Another step towards acceptence

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Originally Posted by KimberlyS

Marla, I agree every oppressed group fighting for rights has had to live with a lot of injustice, pain, abuse, death and more. But for each one of us personally and individually, from the outside, a CD/TG with a wife, kids, decent job, house in a nice neighborhood, and the "Good" life everyone wants, it looks like we have a lot to loose. Mentally I do wonder at times.

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That's a bit what I tried to say in my other statement.
The own personal situation is one thing, a general idea (or generalization) is a complete different thing and it gets tricky when both are mixed or confused.
You can't compare a personal and individual situation to a movement.
'Women's movement had it more or less easy than me' is meaningless. A personal situation is not that of the TG community.
Other than that, there is nothing wrong with caring for the own life (situation) in the first instance.
Even the 'heros' or leaders of a movement usually do. It only looks like they would act unselfish.

No doubt that we (most) have a lot to lose. As most everything in life it's an appreciation of values finally. Win-win situations are rare.

A bit back to the main topic:
TG (CD for Toyah ;)) community could learn too to accept and encourage differences. That's finally the goal it wants to reach, society wise.
Let's celebrate our differences.

recesses of our closets, and had no idea that anyone else had similar urges, self-acceptance would be impossible.It is the self-acceptance that is pushing CD'ers n here out or the closet. The more "complete" feminine expression some experience after coming into the light is the product of self acceptance and self examination. It is only a byproduct of hearing others stories, not the direct result.

I came out of a CD community where CD's were uninvited to support meetings if they showed up in Drab because of home situations or bad circumstances, I've seen CD's rejected because they didn't dress or appear womanly enough and relegated to the back of the room and ignored by the other CD's. Where there was constant pressure to get the "look" and social status was more a beauty contest.

I could never in good conscience ever encourage a CD to go beyond their comfort point. If an old wig and thrift store dress and panty's and bra is all someone needs why push them farther, the farther in we get into this, the more complicated life gets, let the CD platau where they need to, if they go no further that's cool, if they want to do the whole dog and pony show that's cool too. but let THEM set their comfort and need level, not pressure from other CD's

I think often less is more IMHO :2c:

Kim,

I'm replying before I read the other replies.

Thank You!

Thank you for stating that TG's represent a spectrum, a multi-dimensional spectrum, and that it's okay to dress and have hairy legs and have a beard and ... I think I made my point.

Personally, I would love a world where I could dress anyway I felt like, as long as it was with taste. Styles come and styles go. Once men wore wigs and skirts and frills galore. Once, if a man dressed in a feminine manner, it was a sign of distinction and not to be condemned.

I look forward to the day when I can wear a nice skirt, a soft blouse, and a beard that was freshly trimmed.

Any responses?

Once you accept you are a CD you get an appetite for more and more.
It's often a dare x dare situation where you escalate the thrill.

CD Elitism is catty bullshit in my opinion and I steer well clear of that type of childish thinking!

But encouraging others out is quite natural because you know that once people start getting out they won't want to stop. Pushing boundaries is what life is all about isn't it? If we don't shake up our little selves how can we expect the rest of the world to buck up their little ideas and get with our program!

We CD because we get satisfaction (or something) out of it. We have absolutely no idea why we CD or how it got so out of hand but it did and it is. And we love it. And we want more tomorrow! The fun is contagious and there is nothing wrong in encouraging others to feel the thrill.

Degrees of CD: CD has to be a continuum of need - judging by the wide spectrum of girls comments just on this forum alone. This is no judgement - it just is. We are all in this together just some are more advanced than others.

To the outside world CD is misunderstood - most associate CD with gay men which is, as we all know, going in the wrong direction for many CDs!

So if we need to do anything political it would be to educate society about what CD is all about and what it is not all about. Give ourselves a point of difference and a pathway for closet CDs to follow. These two practical things alone would be helpful for all of us, and for those out there who are lost.
Hugs Jazzmine

Byllie,

I completely agree with you. I have no desire to "pass" but just to be a male that enjoys some feminine things. For me it's a fem hair style, purses, toenail polish, fem earrings, and an occasional skirt every once in a while. I am not trying to pass and don't really go out of my way to act in a feminine manner. It is just not my style. I am quite happy just being myself. I advocate that males should adopt fem fashion items while presenting in male mode whether it is earrings, fem hairstyle, toenail polish and the list goes on and on. Women have already done this years ago and are still adopting all articles of men's fashion as fast as they are invented and released. Men need to do the same. As men *RECLAIM* these fashion items that they once wore many years ago, the shock to society will "wear-off" and they will become commonplace. This is exactly what happened with long-hair on men and earrings on men. A lot of men decided to push the envelope and wear long hair or earrings. /the same is true today with shaved legs or other body parts. Many men now-a-days now have shaved legs because they just get other there and do it! I believe that by slowly adopting items from feminine fashion men can reclaim the fashion freedom that they once had. On the other hand, if we wait for other men to take the initiative and lead the charge, then we may be waiting a very long time. Another thing that I have found is that as CDs we tend to blow things out of proportion in our own minds. For example, if we shave our legs or pierce our ears and go out in public and among our family and friends, our world will not end. I have learned this first-hand after a lot of denial and therapy sessions. On the other hand, we cause ourselves so much internal strife and conflict by suppressing and not being who we really are. Of course there are limits to how far we can push the envelope and everyone's limits may be different depending upon their situation. For example, my wife would not approve of me completely crossdressing and attempting to pass. On the other hand, she doesn't have a problem with me adopting fem items as long as I am not trying to pass. That one of the reasons that I believe that we can make collective progress by adopting some fem fashion items such as earrings, shaved legs, etc while presenting in male mode. By doing this we will allow the genera; public to see that men are reclaiming feminine fashion items that once belonged to them! This process has already started with long-hair, earrings and hair color. We can help advance the process by reclaiming other fem fashions that once were ours.

:2c: Jamie
Fashion Freedom for All! :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Byllie

Kim,

I'm replying before I read the other replies.

Thank You!

Thank you for stating that TG's represent a spectrum, a multi-dimensional spectrum, and that it's okay to dress and have hairy legs and have a beard and ... I think I made my point.

Personally, I would love a world where I could dress anyway I felt like, as long as it was with taste. Styles come and styles go. Once men wore wigs and skirts and frills galore. Once, if a man dressed in a feminine manner, it was a sign of distinction and not to be condemned.

I look forward to the day when I can wear a nice skirt, a soft blouse, and a beard that was freshly trimmed.

Any responses?

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Well Kim, you and I have talked about this in our mutual chatroom. I will restate my opinion that I think NOW is the time for us to begin. We are way behind everyone else in the GLBT Community, and they want to know: "Where are you folks hiding?"

One fact is certain, if we don't get out and push for some sort of grudging tolerance....we will never achieve it!

All of those quoted phrases you mentioned, I can't remember ever saying one of them to a sista', or anything even similar. I try and avoid the trap of telling people what is acceptable and what they should do. But, I believe that we can achieve small victories, each and every one of us!

It makes me feel very happy and proud when I see a thread or get a personal account from someone about ANY type of advancement. If someone told me: "Last night for the first time, I walked out to the alley and put out the garbage while enfemme," I would applaud that effort also.

Each of us has to decide what they will do, what they will accomplish, what they will give up, to advance Crossdressing as an acceptable alternative lifestyle. I'm saddened that for a lot of folks the answer will be, "I'm not going to do a blessed thing." Too bad for you, if we never achieve any success, don't come on here and bellyache about how sad it is that people won't accept you....sometimes, you have to go out and demand acceptance!

Peace and Love, Joanie

I again want to thank everyone for their comments.

Genevera, Great examples of TG's being unaccepting of other TG's and where other TG's were at within the TG continuum. And then TG's pushing others to "Be More". Just goes to show we have narrow minded, unaccepting people within our TG community.

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Originally Posted by Genevera

I came out of a CD community where CD's were uninvited to support meetings if they showed up in Drab because of home situations or bad circumstances, I've seen CD's rejected because they didn't dress or appear womanly enough and relegated to the back of the room and ignored by the other CD's. Where there was constant pressure to get the "look" and social status was more a beauty contest.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byllie

...Personally, I would love a world where I could dress anyway I felt like, as long as it was with taste. Styles come and styles go.....I look forward to the day when I can wear a nice skirt, a soft blouse, and a beard that was freshly trimmed.

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Byllie, count me in on that one.

Jazzmine, I like where you are coming from. I am going to use your post as an example, and I am not picking on you, because from my understanding we are on the same page. The statements like following are what I am referring to:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jazzmine

Once you accept you are a CD you get an appetite for more and more.
It's often a dare x dare situation where you escalate the thrill.
.... some are more advanced than others.

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These type of statements, to me at least, make it seem that being a TG is always progressive and IMHO pushes others. While IMHO TG is a continuum or a better word, a spectrum of infinitely multiple paths and stopping points. Yes I agree some seem to move and do "more" and different things. IMHO those are people still in the process of figuring out where they belong, people who like to try things just for the fun or thrill of it, they are being pushed, or other possible reasons. They only seem like they are progressing because they have not reached their point within the spectrum. Saying being TG was a linear continuum would be like saying being a guy was a linear continuum from a geek to a jock that we are all traveling down.

And I do not wish to farther discuss the TG continuum within this post as I know there are different models and thoughts on how and what it is. So for farther discussion if we may use my view of the TG continuum.

Jamie, once again I agree with you. I just want to make the distinction between pushing for TG acceptance and pushing other TG's. Because as Karren said
"No correlation except the words "pushing""

Any more comments I will respond to after the weekend as I am heading out of town.

KimberlyS

Amen and well stated! In other words, if you don't go out and make something happen to advance acceptance, it may never happen. Don't wait for other folks to pave the road for you. :2c:

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Originally Posted by sterling12

Well Kim, you and I have talked about this in our mutual chatroom. I will restate my opinion that I think NOW is the time for us to begin. We are way behind everyone else in the GLBT Community, and they want to know: "Where are you folks hiding?"

One fact is certain, if we don't get out and push for some sort of grudging tolerance....we will never achieve it!

All of those quoted phrases you mentioned, I can't remember ever saying one of them to a sista', or anything even similar. I try and avoid the trap of telling people what is acceptable and what they should do. But, I believe that we can achieve small victories, each and every one of us!

It makes me feel very happy and proud when I see a thread or get a personal account from someone about ANY type of advancement. If someone told me: "Last night for the first time, I walked out to the alley and put out the garbage while enfemme," I would applaud that effort also.

Each of us has to decide what they will do, what they will accomplish, what they will give up, to advance Crossdressing as an acceptable alternative lifestyle. I'm saddened that for a lot of folks the answer will be, "I'm not going to do a blessed thing." Too bad for you, if we never achieve any success, don't come on here and bellyache about how sad it is that people won't accept you....sometimes, you have to go out and demand acceptance!

Peace and Love, Joanie

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I am reminded of the metrosexual male trend that arrived recently and how something as simple as groomed eyebrows and clear nail polish was treated with such derision. Such minor things that you hardly notice but it still made all the difference to those with prejudices.

The thing about long hair and earings is that these were things which macho men adopted. When a 250 pound man in black leather riding a Harley does it, it makes it OK for other men to follow. But if a moderately built groomed man does it, everyone thinks- Gay! which means it does not get accepted.

What we need to do is to bribe the Hell's Angels to start wearing skirts and before you know it, society's prejudices would evaporate.:D

Kimberly, this is a wonderful thread and very timely. It is important for us to consider every TGs situation is completely different. For some, going out with other TG girls and dancing may not be a big deal, but some of us, who are married, it just may not be something we can or want to engage in.

Different Strokes for Different Folks