How do gays view CDs?

Hi, girls,

I have a question. What do you think the gay community thinks of us hetero crossdressers? I am thinking of introducing Stephanie to an old college buddy of mine who is gay and has no idea that I crossdress. He's pretty flamboyant and throws these wildly dramatic theme parties. I want to attend as Stephanie and make some new friends. I don't know if he or any of his other friends do drag. I'm wondering if he will be shocked? Offended? Critical? Intolerant? Pleased? Do any of you have gay friends and what do they think?

Love,
Stephanie

I told a gay lady friend of mine several years ago. All she said was more powerto you. She did not react badly but she was female as well.:2c:

One of my brothers is gay and he has a laugh every time he sees me. But he does tell me sometimes that I look good for a guy in a dress. Some of his friends seem OK with it, and some think it's an awful thing for a man to do.
It seems that they are just like everyone else in their opinions.

Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't..........

~~ Sandy ~~

he and his friends will have an attitude to it based on their individual character. IMO the fact they are Gay will not effect their thoughts for better or worse.
You know your friend, thats all you have to go on im affraid

I agree with the others that their acceptance will be based on their own individual feelings.

As a whole though, many don't believe the T should be in GLBT. And I can understand why. G, L & B are related to sexual orientation, while the T is not.

I don't know the whole story, but the T got lumped in with the GLB movement many years ago and I don't believe it has benefited either side very well.

Jaie

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Kay

What do you think the gay community thinks of us hetero crossdressers?

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Hi Stephanie,

What an interesting question. My own personal opinion is that truthfully, I don't think gay people really understand us anymore than the rest of the general population does. I think that they know about transsexuals, and they understand the (fairly recently) added "T" in GLBT has got something to do with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they would rather it not be there either. I also happen to think that they (perhaps?) will be more tolerant of us (or maybe should that be nonchalant) in the sense that they understand what being "different" is.

I don't personally have any gay friends but I do have CDing friends some of who have gay friends, and they have told me that when they came out to their gay friend, they didn't really get it, especially the married hetro part.

I guess it depends on the individual. If you do come out to your gay friend I don't think there's going to be a problem, but don't be surprised if they misunderstand what it's really all about either.

A log time ago, our group IXE use to meet at a place called GiGi's They had a bar/dance floor on the first level and food on the second.

One meeting I was talking with a young gay man about 24 or so. After a while it dawned on him that the person I had been speaking about (my wife) was not what he thought.

His next words were, "You're married to a WOMAN?!" He soon left and brought over three of his friends and again claimed, "She's married to a woman!"

None of them dreamed that any of us there were anything but gay like themselves. For many years now, IXE has participated in the local Pride weekend. Not to get new members, but to educate the gay population (and straight as well), that crossdressers and such are not necessarily gay as they might believe.

:tongueout

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Originally Posted by tvgirl4fun

I agree with the others that their acceptance will be based on their own individual feelings.

As a whole though, many don't believe the T should be in GLBT. And I can understand why. G, L & B are related to sexual orientation, while the T is not.

I don't know the whole story, but the T got lumped in with the GLB movement many years ago and I don't believe it has benefited either side very well.

Jaie

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Well, some of us translate the T as "transsexual" which, more is more commonly defined in the sense of a person with the brain/mind the opposite of their biosex. This is different than G L &B although a TS is technically homosexual, in the bio sense, its distinctively different from a typical gay whose mine matches his body but still has an attraction for the same sex/gender.

Some folks use T or TS as a catch-all for any behaviour of condition than involves unconventional sexuality ----But I think the folks that contrived the G L B & T had the first definition above in mind.

A CD is likely to be hetro (although some TSs dress to suit their mind) but those are for different reasons all together, Some gays may also CD, but for the same reasons hetros who's CD is not sexual, do.

Really, though I never could figgure out the Gay /CD connection. It dont make sense to me--and gay "Drag" shows? why? Gay guys are supposed to be attrected to other guys and other people who LOOK like men. It just dont make sense. One of those mysteries of life I suppose.---My only explanation is perhaps its the TS folks that do the drag shows, and make up the bulk of gay CDers, yet TS people are not quite the same "animals" as are regular gays .

Hi Stephanie,
Regarding the gay community and CD's.
Some are accepting, some are not. I have gone to bars and have had long conversations with gays then I have had ones that won't give you the time of day.

Regarding going to a party in CD and your friend doesn't know it.
I would let him know before you go. And ask if others CD also. From past threads surprising people no matter what the subject is not a good idea.

Tamera

Me Gay Mate in Calgary just doesn't get it and is very creeped out by transgenderism. Sometimes the world seems big and sometimes seems small.
We are all so different until we clone more often.

I think that this is right.

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Originally Posted by Angel Darling

Hi Stephanie,

What an interesting question. My own personal opinion is that truthfully, I don't think gay people really understand us anymore than the rest of the general population does. I think that they know about transsexuals, and they understand the (fairly recently) added "T" in GLBT has got something to do with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they would rather it not be there either. I also happen to think that they (perhaps?) will be more tolerant of us (or maybe should that be nonchalant) in the sense that they understand what being "different" is.

I don't personally have any gay friends but I do have CDing friends some of who have gay friends, and they have told me that when they came out to their gay friend, they didn't really get it, especially the married hetro part.

I guess it depends on the individual. If you do come out to your gay friend I don't think there's going to be a problem, but don't be surprised if they misunderstand what it's really all about either.

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Bottom Line ...Gays are just people ...You have GG's that accept or don't ....GM's..that do or don't ...Ive a few gay guys as friends and they totatly respect me for who I am ...

Gay people are as accepting (or not) as the rest of the population. Some accept us totally and others would prefer that we didn't exist. We can not generalize about any group in society, just because a person is gay does not make them any more or less tolerant.

Every one of my gay friends thinks Dominique is rather fascinating, although most of them have no desire to cross-dress. It is interseting that a great number of us hetero CDers find other CDers quite sexy and alluring, yet most, if not all, of my gay friends like the rugged guy look -- which makes sense to me.

Just like with heteros, you'll get various responses from gays. Some will approve, and some will not.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Angel. Most Gay Men that I encounter, just don't get us.

Also, they tend to shy away from us because a lot of them, in The Gay Community, have spent about the last twenty years trying to convince the rest of The World that aside from their desire to have relationships with persons of the same sex, they are just like everyone else. According to some of the people I have talked to, if overtly feminine and "flamboyant," we remind them of a lot of the old "Queen" Stereotypes and that may be a societal no-no for them.

One of my support groups interacts with The Gay Community a lot. The longer my Group is around, and the more accepting and friendly we have been, the less animosity and "standoffishness" we seem to encounter. I reckon people are still people and we just need to interact more, or at least try and take the initial steps.

When having a conversation with Gay Men, I often relate that I probably am homosexual too. Like most CDs, I would consider myself to be transgendered, and I like women as sexual partners. I think that would probably qualify me as a lesbian and a Homosexual. See, it's all in how you look at it. Anyway, it tends to be a good "icebreaker" and often tends to lead to more candid conversation.

Peace and Love, Joanie

I went to a CD support group meeting once in Memphis Tenn. There was a gay male there, who was informing people about some of the gay activities in Memphis. All of the members of the club were hetero-CDers. There was no problem, this guy was totally cool with it.

IMHO- Most, but not all gay men, do not have a problem with hetero-CDers. The few that I have met, have a "live and let live" mentality.

I have several cousins who are gay and lesbian.I have some gay freinds that know I'm a hetero male to female cd and they are nonplused about it.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Kay

Hi, girls,

I have a question. What do you think the gay community thinks of us hetero crossdressers? I am thinking of introducing Stephanie to an old college buddy of mine who is gay and has no idea that I crossdress. He's pretty flamboyant and throws these wildly dramatic theme parties. I want to attend as Stephanie and make some new friends. I don't know if he or any of his other friends do drag. I'm wondering if he will be shocked? Offended? Critical? Intolerant? Pleased? Do any of you have gay friends and what do they think?

Love,
Stephanie

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Why don't you just ask him, "Hey, are CDers gay? What do you think of them? Do you know any?".

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Originally Posted by Stephanie Kay

Hi, girls,

I have a question. What do you think the gay community thinks of us hetero crossdressers? I am thinking of introducing Stephanie to an old college buddy of mine who is gay and has no idea that I crossdress. He's pretty flamboyant and throws these wildly dramatic theme parties. I want to attend as Stephanie and make some new friends. I don't know if he or any of his other friends do drag. I'm wondering if he will be shocked? Offended? Critical? Intolerant? Pleased? Do any of you have gay friends and what do they think?

Love,
Stephanie

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Why not just ask what jews think, or hispanics, or blacks think of crossdressing. Expecting your college buddy to react the same way as somebody elses gay friend because they are both gay is really narrow minded.

I have ben going out as Paula for many years. I have also ben to every gay Bar in a 75 mile radius of our area ( Cincinnati). As a crossdresser you think of a gay bar as a accepting place, why?, because society no mater how hard you try to convince otherwise has you earmarked as being gay. But this is what I have found. When i'm in a gay bar for the biggist part it's like being on a Island by yourself, you get the feeling that you just don't fit in with the crowd. I had a gay guy ask to see my drivers liscense, he wanted to see what I looked like as a guy, and went on to ask my why I was in that skirt. I guess gay men like gay men, not women or someone dressed as one. When in a Gal or Lez bar I get the same feeling of not fitting in. These gals like real women and not someone who just dresses like one. Now my question is what is a Hetrosexual Crodresser?.........:love:

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Originally Posted by Paulacder

Now my question is what is a Hetrosexual Crodresser?.........:love:

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A lesbian in a mans body :devil:

***Runs away very quickly****

Maybe I'd be a therapist's dream. When I'm just me (non-dressing male), I date the opposite sex (male dating females). When I dress, I date the same sex (CD dating males).

There are so many levels of acceptance from either males or females, gay or straight. You just have to find the niche group that accepts you as you are.

Hi Stephanie,
Like others that have answered already, everyone has different opinions of us, doesnt matter gay or bi or straight. I only know a couple gay CD's and they seem ok with how I dress *S*
I have had great times out at GLB clubs, never fealt out of place,, several times had girls and guys sit down to chat and ask questions about being a CD,, one gg thought my friend and I were a couple and was amazed when we told her we both were hetero with wifes at home.
I do think even tho many gays may not understand us they are more open minded about our different lifestyle, but again some may just think we are strange *S*

Cindy

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Originally Posted by Angel Darling

Hi Stephanie,

What an interesting question. My own personal opinion is that truthfully, I don't think gay people really understand us anymore than the rest of the general population does. I think that they know about transsexuals, and they understand the (fairly recently) added "T" in GLBT has got something to do with that. I wouldn't be surprised if they would rather it not be there either. I also happen to think that they (perhaps?) will be more tolerant of us (or maybe should that be nonchalant) in the sense that they understand what being "different" is.

I don't personally have any gay friends but I do have CDing friends some of who have gay friends, and they have told me that when they came out to their gay friend, they didn't really get it, especially the married hetro part.

I guess it depends on the individual. If you do come out to your gay friend I don't think there's going to be a problem, but don't be surprised if they misunderstand what it's really all about either.

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I agree.
It is my expirence that the gay male population is not as understanding of CD's that are heterosexual. I have a couple of gay male friends. One has a drag queen boy friend . Neither one had very good things to say about cd's. Go figure, you would think that they of all people would be understanding and accepting. Kitty

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

I agree.
It is my expirence that the gay male population is not as understanding of CD's that are heterosexual. I have a couple of gay male friends. One has a drag queen boy friend . Neither one had very good things to say about cd's. Go figure, you would think that they of all people would be understanding and accepting. Kitty

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This may be true---Indeed, As one myself, I "get" Hetro CDing, but I do not understand GAY CDs

even within the LGB community the presence of "conflicts" can be noted.With gay men and women, disagreeing or being uncomfortable with Bi sexual people, and a certain level of impass within the attitudes between gay men and lesbian women. As a member of a LGB society during my degree, being transgendered my experience was that others in the LGB community were supportive, and freindly, they would sit me down and try to understand what being transgendered meant, and I was very grateful for their care as I progresssed with my transition. Its true, my presence in the LGB society wasnt about being L, G, or B. I was there because I identified with those with similar issue with regards to acceptance in society, and sharing support as a person without predominant reference to my being TG.

I tend to agree with most of the advice/opinions already offered in response to your post. But concerning coming out to a gay male friend, I thought I'd offer you aadvice that stems from my own experience:

Years ago, I came out to a good gay male friend of mine. He was mostly just intrigued by the news. But, It soon became clear to me that he didn't really understand/believe that I could be heterosexual if I wore women's clothing. It was as if he somehow thought that by coming out to him, I was also admitting that I secretely had an interest in men. Heck, he even offered to take me out shopping. As fun as that might have been, he had the wrong idea--at least so far as my sexual orientation was concerned--and it was clear that I was going to have to address this issue before it got out of hand. I sat my friend down and had another long talk with him...He still didn't understand crossdressing, but he understood that I was 100% heterosexual.

All of this to say that I would caution you to make absolutely certain that your buddy understands that, by coming out, you are not suggesting that you might be gay or bi. As long as there is no confusion here, I imagine everything will be ok. (Of course, if you are gay or bi, then you probably should make that clear, too, lol)

For whatever it's worth, I hope this helps.

Actually, thinking about this a bit... Aren't we actually BI?
As males, we prefer women... That makes us hetro.
As females, we still prefer women.. Doesn't that make us a lesbian?

So maybe we need a new term... HEBISHE or HSBI. Too complicated, I guess.

Marina, The "T" in GLBT stands for "transgender" (covers CD/TV/TS). And how can you make the assumption that a "TS is technically homosexual"? A TS is someone that has started taking hormones and is (usually) heading toward SRS. They currently have breasts and male genitalia. Many of them have no interest in men, either before or after surgery.

I forgot to mention in my original post that I used to bowl in a GLBT bowling league. I had no negative reactions from anyone. Guys or girls I bowled with nor the mangagement of the bowling centers, or the regular customers. And I traveled from upstate NY to VA to bowl in tournaments. All the while in girl mode.

Jaie

Interesting discussion!! Keep it up! I am going to email my friend today and tell him about myself and see what he thinks. I 'll tell you what he says.

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Originally Posted by Paulacder

I guess gay men like gay men, not women or someone dressed as one. When in a Gal or Lez bar, I get the same feeling of not fitting in. These gals like real women, and not someone who just dresses like one.

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I share this view.

From personal experience...I have to say that the gay persons that I work with and know that I am a CD....they are quite OK with it....As a funny side note...they do find it amusing when I disclose some crossdressing adventure that I have been out on. Their reaction sometimes is...."really?? you went out looking like that???...are you crazy???" It is all in good fun however.
Krissy

Stephanie If you never gave that friend grief about being gay why would he give it to you for crossdressing I'll bet he will say you go girl :hugs:
Angie

I thought GLB, stood for sexual issues, while the T stood for gender issues?
Isn't that why there are some CD'ers that are gay and or Bi, and this does not have anything to do with crossdressing?
Hetro's and gays all get confussed by this, as they all seem to think of these things in sexual terms, and not gender.
And Gay or straight, arn't we all just a bit confussed by what we don't know, and don't understand?
I have a Lesbian friend, that has been known to get a good laugh out of the way gay men act, she can understand a man wanting a woman, but she has trouble with the idea of anyone wanting a man!
It's all a crap shoot, sometimes we get surprized at who does except us, so why should it surprize us when someone in the GBLT does not except us.
And s far as what we are doing in the GLBT, isn't the old saying "Politics makes strange bed partners".
Thanks to the activst in all of those groups getting along, we have all moved forward.
I think we ahve anyway!
Tina B. :2c:

wow good post i went to a lesbian bar 2 weeks ago felt wellcome there how ever i went to a gay bar this weenend with several other cd s but i just did not fell so wellcome there i mean everyone was nice just felt like we were being put up with but thats just my :2c: worth

They need a club just for men who dress as women.

In San Diego, they have a club called SRO Lounge. It's mostly a gay hangout, but they're very welcoming to CD'ers.

http://www.srolounge.com/

To echo what others have said....

My experience is that gays and lesbians don't "get" crossdressing and trans issues any more than hetros. And yes, they also assume a man who crossdresses is gay.

Overall, my experience is that gays and lesbians are more tolerant. They may not understand us, but they're generally willing live and let live -- probably due to being familar to what it's like to be considered an outsider themselves. That said, certain segments of the lesbian community aren't trans friendly -- they still hold to a view that MTFs are at best making a mockery of women and are worse trying "to colonise feminist identification, culture, politics and sexuality" as Janice Raymond put it in her infamous "The Transsexual Empire." And a gay CD I know experience the worse harassment she'd ever had on Castro Street in SF.

Marina -- Being TS isn't inherently being "technically" homosexual because some MTFs are attracted to men and some to women. Unless you want to argue that someone's "technically" homosexual pre-op and the hetro post-op (or vice versa). Which is why it's far more useful to think in terms of androphillic or gynophillic (i.e. attracte to men or attracted to women).

As far as why the association of CD = gay, it's part of a long-standing false equivalence that "unmanly = feminine = gay." (And not it's not that most drag queens are TSs, the vast majority of them are gay men, thank you very much.) In part it goes back to theories several centuries ago that gays and lesbians were "sexual inverts" and therefore the thinking was that they must have been womanish men and mannish women. Also it probably is related that a number of gay men did crossdress in the late 1700s and early 1800s as a way of advertising their homosexuality. While female impersonation was predominately a hetrosexual artform up until WWII, afterwards for various reasons having a drag performer was a covert way of signaling that a club catered to gay clientele in an era when any overt advertising would've resulted in the club being shut down and the owner probably carted off to jail.

As far as the great degree of gender varience one see in the gay and lesbian communities, I think it's the flip side of the greater sexual varience seen in the trans community. Once you've stepped outside of "normal" in one dimension, it's easier to acknowlege "non-standard" feelings in the other. So you get feminine gays and masculine lesbians, although neither necessary get the greatest respect within the gay and lesbian communities (neither do femme lesbians), and CDs who are more willing to acknowledge bisexual fantasies, desires and behaviors. (Although arguably, based on the Kinsey spectrum, I don't think bisexuality is higher among CDs, I think they're just more likely to acknowledge it.)

[SIZE="3"]Great post, strayed a bit, talk to your friend get his feelings and see, coming out to him will answer all. We have so many answers here, gays don't understand us, at times we don't understand ourselves, when asked by a gay woman why I do this, I had to say to satisfy the need to portray who I think I am. [/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by sandyohio

wow good post i went to a lesbian bar 2 weeks ago felt wellcome there how ever i went to a gay bar this weenend with several other cd s but i just did not fell so wellcome there i mean everyone was nice just felt like we were being put up with but thats just my :2c: worth

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I have attended TV weekends in the UK and a group of us have attended gay bars dressed. In one club not one gay man spoke a word to us, in another bar only 1 gay man spoke and we chatted for a bit and he was really accepting.

When it came to the Lesbians in the bars and clubs they were more than happy to chat and ask about cd'ing etc.

So I tend to agree with you Sandy when you say that everyone is nice just feesl like we were being put up with."

The problem is that we the transgendered have been tagged onto the end of the gay scene. This is simply because society do not know where to put us and in general IMO the gay community do not appreciate that.

But we do not need anyone elses permission to be who we are. What i find sad is that the gay community know what it is like to be in our position regarding discrimination etc yet part of the community choose to judge us TV/CD's.

Understanding should be a two-way street. A person's sexual orientation should only matter if you would like to have sex with them. Other than that it should be a non-issue. Most of what has been written on this thread so far is, in my view, ill-informed. Only Marlena D. seems to have any understanding of the diversity of human nature. The bottom line is that you can't reasonably expect someone to go to the effort of understanding and accepting you unless you're prepared reach out and do likewise.

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Originally Posted by Marina Twelve

a TS is technically homosexual.

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:rolleyes:

All the comments are terrific, girls. Good discussion!

I haven't heard anyone comment about this aspect. I always thought that drag queens, since they were gay, were mocking women. That's why they "went over the top" with big boobs, big hair, very tight clothing, lot's of make-up, (eg. Divine, RuPaul, etc.). I'm not putting them down. I just don't understand. It seems to me that drag queen's exagerated dress and looks are an attempt to be noticed. I dress conservatively in public because I just want to feel like an ordinary woman and "fit in" and not be noticed! What do you think?+?

I think it really depends on the individual. Most gay people I know are toally accepting of my being a CDer. I have only run into one gay guy who was not. For him it was disgusting that a guy would dress as a woman. Needless to say that I no longer associate with this guy.

I have a long time homosexual friend, in my church. Like me, we both must keep our secrets, with church, though some of the people, understand his situation, and I have told one lady obout my cding. She told me I nned to stop, etc. My honosexual friend, when I told him about dressing up, did not understand why, and said, that gay men, are not really into that, and don't understand why a man would want to put on women clothes. However, there are a FEW gay men, who do like putting on women's clothes.

religion, dontcha just love it.....

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Originally Posted by Marlena Dahlstrom

That said, certain segments of the lesbian community aren't trans friendly -- they still hold to a view that MTFs are at best making a mockery of women and are worse trying "to colonise feminist identification, culture, politics and sexuality" as Janice Raymond put it in her infamous "The Transsexual Empire."

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Some of the CDing cliches don't help, either. "I CD but like women, so I'm a lesbian", "I CD so I know what it's like to be a woman", etc from people who ultimately still have all the privileges of being born male and who can return to those privileges by taking the clothes off. And rather ironically given drag's role in the stonewall riots, CDs don't tend to get involved in the fight for equal rights.

Sweeping generalisations, I know.

A gay friend of mine told me that gays don't usually like cds. I asked him why not? He said, "Because gays are not into women and cds try to be women, or look as much like them as they can. It's a turn off." I then asked him why many gays (sexually speaking, 'bottoms') try to act like women then. They talk, walk, have similar interests such as hair, fashion, cooking, designing, dance, etc. They want to do everything that women do the only difference is that they don't wear women's clothes. He couldn't answer that one. He did say though that knowing me has changed his opinion although he won't be turned on by anyone in a skirt or a dress. I said that's fine, just don't be against them.

Ask your friend his opinion. Tell him that you are a crossdresser no matter his answer then take it from there.

Bonnie

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Originally Posted by Bonnie D

I then asked him why many gays (sexually speaking, 'bottoms') try to act like women then. They talk, walk, have similar interests such as hair, fashion, cooking, designing, dance, etc. They want to do everything that women do the only difference is that they don't wear women's clothes.

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A couple of things:

1. Not all gay men that engage in so-called "women's interests" are "bottoms", and

2. I don't see why these should be called women's interests anyway since not all women are into cooking, clothes, decorating, etc. They're just interests - for anyone of any gender.

Yes, CaptLex, stereotyping is exactly what I was doing. I don't agree with it but used it to question my friend about his prejudice. My point being that there are effeminate gays who are accepted within the gay community but as soon as they put on a dress and not in drag queen effect then it changes things. It shouldn't.

Bonnie