case study

This is an atempt to portray a possible CD vs SO situation. Please be objective in your observations if you wish to respond. This is an exercise to possibly bring some insight into where each person is comming from and how to find some common ground. Neither side is good or bad.

CD: When not crossdressing the cd is moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative. Personal human interaction is replaced with surfing the internet. When the cd has free time to spend with the SO and if crossdressing is not suggested, the CD finds some activity that does not include their SO and seldom suggests activities that do not involve crossdressing. The CD seems to have no interest in suggested activities like going to a movie or junk shopping unless the focus is on finding dresses or shoes for themselves. The CD only reluctantly participates in activities that the SO finds important or are obligations to family or friends such as weddings, annaversaries etc. Get togethers with work friends is not very important but the CD will go reluctantly and bring it up as a proof that he participates in the SO's life. The CD feels that the SO controls the crossdressing because the SO's participation is crucial in the eyes of the CD.

SO: When not crossdressing the SO is trying to fill free time with activities that promote friendship and create memories for the CD and the SO to share. Family and friend obligations fall to the SO to arrange and place on a calander. The SO tries to find time to interact with friends and wishes desperately that the CD will also interact and develope friendships with non CD people. When interaction wth CD couples arrises the SO participates willingly. The SO is enthusiastic about participating in the crossdressing and even accompanies the CD to outings with other CD's in different situations. (halloween party, dinner at a mainstream resturant, and clubbing). Over time when the SO feels that the enthusiasim for non-cd activities is less than she puts out for cd activities the SO becomes hurt and angry that the enthusiasim is not reciprocated and starts to slow down the participation in cd activities. The SO starts to feel like an object only necessary when fullfilling the CD's desires.

Questions to ponder:

How do the CD and the SO find some common ground?

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?

Will the CD always consider it as a form of control over the CD by the SO?

If caring and enthusiasim are not forthcomming from the CD for activities that are important to the SO how will the SO ever shed the feeling of being an object?

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

This is an exercise to attempt to gain empathy and understanding for each point of view. I think that many CD couples can relate to this thread so please respond objectivly so that others main gain some higher understanding about where their spouses are comming from. I thank you all in advance for your insightful responses. :hugs: Kitty

I have found your words to be very close to my situation. Yes, my SO does plan our activities for us. Yes, my SO wishes that I be happy, but is at this time not very open to give me the freedom to CD as I need to do.

The only common ground at this time are activities like visiting family, buying groceries and being together, but not while I am CD.

She knows that CD is important to me, but does not want to discuse it with me, so I have to make do by myself.

As I stated, you have some very good points on how we(CD) thinks, I will spend the day pondering more on your questions, I am a little happy and sad, but, and wil continue trying to help my SO to better understand me.

Hmmm interesting.

Quote:

---

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?

---

I'd suggest direct plain cut-to-the-point statements. Also, ask 'why' (tone is crucial when it's done though). Perhaps even frame it in a 'talking about your emotions is a feminine thing to do' discussion to help them learn to slowly open up. Many guys (skirts notwithstanding) are thoroughly emotionally repressed and have very little emotional vocabulary or self-awareness so that might be a slow process.

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets. Lots of social events can be a nasty and cruel reminder of what I'm locked away from too and withdrawing, isolating oneself is sometimes the only way to cope.

The CD may feel less controlled if things are put as requests rather than demands. An appeal to fairness would probably work if it appeals to the notion of an opt-in bargain or trade. Like 'I'll go to this with you if you go to that with me' but not 'I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me'.

Quote:

---

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets.

---

Even worse, it can be hard to be out and about around women sometimes for the same reason. I remember this customer that came into the restaurant wearing the most beautiful sundress and it just made me bitter that I couldn't.

It seems to me that the CD is controlling the relationship by using crossdressing as an emotional battering ram. His life is ruled by his activities and he expects others to toe the line. I think that it has become a life fetish and he probably needs to get some kind of therapy in order to add balance to his life.

Its probably a danger that many of us face and i can certainly recognise elements in me.

mitch

these are intresting points cd/so relations are like many others and are also more sensetive and a veriaty of things come to play honesty, the cd and so have to be open minded with each other NO single focused agendas ,balance has to be achieved respect, and very good communications learn to listen to each other and be sensetive and thoughtfull of the other person when they are trying to talk about important subjects to them family is the key to most GG'S as should be to most people with out them we have very little this has worked pretty good for me for the last 35 years :hugs:

susie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by battybattybats

Hmmm interesting.



I'd suggest direct plain cut-to-the-point statements. Also, ask 'why' (tone is crucial when it's done though). Perhaps even frame it in a 'talking about your emotions is a feminine thing to do' discussion to help them learn to slowly open up. Many guys (skirts notwithstanding) are thoroughly emotionally repressed and have very little emotional vocabulary or self-awareness so that might be a slow process.

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets. Lots of social events can be a nasty and cruel reminder of what I'm locked away from too and withdrawing, isolating oneself is sometimes the only way to cope.

The CD may feel less controlled if things are put as requests rather than demands. An appeal to fairness would probably work if it appeals to the notion of an opt-in bargain or trade. Like 'I'll go to this with you if you go to that with me' but not 'I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me'.

---

You bring up some good points. The diabetic analogy is a good one. The oposite could be true for the SO. The crossdressing becomes the object of disdain because the SO feels forced to put the emphasis on the crossdressing over her own desires to socialize and participate in family activities and obligations. By isolating himself the CD is performing a passive agressive form of punishment in the eyes of the SO.

I am guilty of the "I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me" statment. Us SO's really don't want to control our partners. We do things that we don't like willingly without dramma and bad body language and figure that if our spouses love us they will return the favor. I personally want a partner not a person that I control or mother.

I whole heartedly agree with your first statement that tone of voice can make or break any conversation. The crossdressing issue is such an emotional one for both parties that it is sort of hard to remain calm and maintain an agreeable tone of voice. Things can degrage in an instant as we all know. I also agree with the statement that men don't really have the emotional vocabulary with which to express their feelings. So's can understand that especially if they seem to attempt to express their feelings without yelling or becoming emotional. I think that dramma and arguments are the alternative for a person who finds it difficult to verbally express their feelings.

Good stuff so far. I not only hope that this discussion will help me but many others as well. Anyone else have any thoughts? :hugs: Kitty

Wowsers! Do I dare jump in?

You have asked for objectivity, but you have presented only half of the story. How would he/she describe the problem? Obviously you are hurting - and angry - and more confused than you probably realize. I don't see a single positive reference to your SO in the writeup - surely there is something special and nice about him (and her) that makes you want to be together?

My guess is that you are tremendously good sport who grits her teeth and participates willingly in something she doesn't like very much. But I am sensing that you also do it "from a distance" and let the SO know in subtle (or maybe not so subtle) ways that she "owes you" for it. So the times you spend with her are perhaps less satifying for her, in that they don't offer the relief and comfort and acceptance she most probably is seeking. And those same times are less satisfying for you, because at some level you think you should be building "points" for times in which he to do what you want. At some level she probably resents this, and it carries through in his sulleness and isolation. Wow - is that deep or what?

There are two (or more) ways to solve the problem - the simple way is to create some sort of mutual scoring system that you can both agree to. You get five points for taking her shopping at Vickies, and he gets 3 points for spending an evening with your sister and obnoxious brother-in-law. The negotiations for point values could be a lot of fun. At the end of the month you balance the accounts, and at some (superficial) level, you both feel that your needs have been fairly met. A lot of long term, happy marriages are based on such barter systems, with any number of different issues being negotiated.

A deeper (and probably more satisfying) solution would be based on a commitment to understanding and acceptance. This one is much, much harder and much,much,much less common. You can read a large number of threads in this forum about disapproving and deceived wives, but there are also a few truely wonderful storys of love and happiness. Whether you two can achieve the latter state is entirely up to each of you as well as both of you together. He/she must overcome the selfish and self-centered attitudes that seem inherent to CDs (there are hundreds of justifiable reasons for this trait, but it is clearly rampant among us - just read the forum :) ). You must overcome the cultural (and probably sexual) expectations of a "perfect" husband. And you need to trust each other, without judgement. Simple enough?

Hopefully, you'll succeed togther and in the future you'll look back at some incident and not be able to remember whether she was dressed or he wasn't when it happened.

I wish you two the very best - I love to read the happy stories!

jj

A second thought, if I may.

In case I seemed judgemental about GG SOs who don't completely understand and accept their CD guys, I didn't me to be. It is a very difficult concept to embrace.

If you look at the many threads in the forum about almost getting caught or how to hide what we do, it is clear that many of us CD guys don't understand and completely accept ourselves either.

Please be gentle and kind - most of us are hurting more than we let on.

jj

Jennifer,
I was attempting to portray a situation that many SO's of CD's find themselves in. This is not my story alone. I am attemting to gain some insight from CD's and to hopefully lend some understanding of the thoughts and feelings of a SO.

You don't know me but let me tell you you couldn't be farther from the truth about me being a "good sport". I try to have fun in every situation that I find myself in. I am a people person and can find some common ground with just about anyone.

I do sort of like your scoring card suggestion as a means to put "perceptions" about the lack of participation in the others interest to rest. I might use it as a learning tool rather than a life philosophy though.
Thanks for your comments
Kitty

OMG Kitty, my immediate thought is no, this will never work. There is just no hint of cooperation from the CDer. Marriage is a compromise and without compromise you will never get it to work at all. My quick judgment of this relationship is that it's headed down the road to disolution, bigtime. So no, it's not possible for this CD/SO coouple to have a sucessful partnership if the current attitudes are maintained.

And there's the key, right there. It looks to me like you are the managing director of this situation, and I would say that if you can lay down the law, i.e. provide a framework that demands an equal participation from both parties, you may be able to save it. Although you may not want to do it, it may be time for those words we all dread, "It's my way or the highway". At the present time it seems that those are the words you are receiving from the CDer even though they are not really being spoken, only acted.

I think that CDing is not relevant to this issue at all. This is just a very one-sided selfish relationship and it can't work this way. Substitute my favorite, "fishing" for CDing and you have described a fishing fanatic who is working hard to destroy his marriage. Substitute any activity that you want here, and taken to the extreme you describe, with the thoughtlessness and inconsideration you describe, and you have a picture of someone hell bent on dissoving a relationship. This is not to say some relationships do work under these conditions. We have all heard of the "fishing widow", and I know one couple were the husband is a policeman, and I truly don't know if the man even exists. In the 10 years I have known them, I have NEVER even seen him. He is always on the job, or training, or hanging out with his buds, or, if home, he's sleeping. He could be immaginary for all I know, except that he has fathered two children. I know another couple in which the man builds Kentucky long rifles for a hobby and I never see him either except at meal times.

I think that waiting for Mr CDer to fix his behavior here is a lost cause. Unless you are able to set some rules, and rules with teeth, I don't see how this will work. Perhaps the threat of absolute refusal to alow ANY CDing at all in return for FULL participation in the relationship would work, but it's a little late to hold out much hope. As I said, I think CDing is a non issue here. It's the refusal to participate in a relationship that's that's causing the trouble here. Fix that, and the CDing won't matter.

JMHO dear,

Stephenie

God... I'd hate to have that life... Sounds more like crossdressing isn't the whole problem... In my opinion..

I think the CD should figure out if he got married and had a family for a reason... And if it still holds true then its the family first and he needs to learn to work his crossdressing around the needs of the family not make them suffer because of it.. In my opinion..

Karren

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephenie S

As I said, I think CDing is a non issue here. It's the refusal to participate in a relationship that's that's causing the trouble here. Fix that, and the CDing won't matter.

JMHO dear,

Stephenie

---

Stephanie, this is the head of the nail. Where does this come from?

Behind many total narcissist you will find an overbearing, enabeling, do everything for and give everything to her kids mother. When parents do this to their children they grow up lacking the skills it takes to gain balance, have empathy for others and give of themselves. They grow up with a false perception of their importance in the world at large. They have trouble expressing themselves, they have very little self confidence because they never needed to, mom did everything, and they have very low self esteem.

Just because you grow up this way does not mean that you can't change, it just takes some work because most of us learned these skills as we were growing up. My own mother tried to make us dependant on her but with my personality I just couldn't allow that to happen. My sister is a victim though and and has trouble being independent to this day and she has a PhD.

Self acceptance and balance is something that I feel strongly about. You can't give that to someone though so what does a SO do in the mean time. Do you throw in the towel? Do you keep trying to be heard until you finally wear out? It is a matter of empathizing with your partner, giving , receiving love, sharing a life but staying true to yourself. :hugs: Kitty

Kitty,

Oh dear - I fear I've offended you. That was the farthest thing from my intentions! I meant the "good sport" in a very positive way; if this is indeed your personal story, it seems that you are very generous and giving person. I would certainly love to have you as a friend, no matter how I'm dressed.

I do hear some frustration or anger in your description of the situation, and I understand why that would be so. As described, he doesn't seem like much fun to be with. Is he happier as she? Is she happy with herself dressed, or does she wish she had more hair, or could shave, or had real breasts, or whatever? Does she want/need more girl time? Would she be happier 24/7?

I'm not suggesting this as a solution, but rather as an avenue to understanding. If she wants more time, but can't have it - what is the constraining factor?

Here are lots of other things I don't know:

Is your involvement something recent after years of hiding and repression on his part? How old is he? how long has he been dressing? Is he just going through the "pink haze" phase? I love that term - I read it someplace here, but don't know whom to credit for it.

How did you find out? Does he feel guilty about the girl time, and how it affects you? There is a lot of potential for self-loathing in this activity; is he transferring his own feelings of confusion onto you?

How long has this been a problem? Weeks, months, years, decades? It may just take some time (probably longer that we'd expect) for it to find its level.

One more thought. Are you reasonably sure that the excessive crossdressing is the cause of the problem and not the result of something else entirely? Dressing up as somebody else is an awfully good way to avoid other problems in your life. I'm not suggesting that he is a crossdresser because of some traumatic event or problem, but rather that it's any easy place to hide when other things are bothering him.

Please, please, please accept my good wishes and admiration. My favorite person in the whole world is still having trouble with the same issues, and she has had decades to adjust.

jj

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jenniferj

Wowsers! Do I dare jump in?

<snip>

---

saved me a huge long post. Thank you!


Louise.

Wow, I think that the CD needs to slow down and rember they are a very lucky individual to be loved and understood by their SO, not many CD are as fortunate. If CD is takeing up that much space running through the sysnapses, CD may want to revisit who realy matters. Maybe even find some type of counseling to get her behavior under control. Marriage and relationships are based on love, trust, understanding, and a lot of compromise on both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittypw GG

This is an atempt to portray a possible CD vs SO situation. Please be objective in your observations if you wish to respond. This is an exercise to possibly bring some insight into where each person is comming from and how to find some common ground. Neither side is good or bad.

---

is there bitterness on the part of the SO? If so that is palpable to the CDer without the SO or the CDer even consciously knowing it and a deathknell for future understanding IMO.


the CDer sounds like a most selfish human being and the SO the long suffering martyr. Not exactly balanced and so it is unfair to ask for an objective response. The original post is not objective in ANY way.


Louise.

Wow Louise I didn't expect to see another gg being so negative. One would think that you would have a sympathetic pov. I asked for objectivity but maybe I should have asked for people to not be mean. I know for a fact that many SO's of CD's have expirenced this situation. I thought that there could be an honest discussion about how the cd might feel controlled by the so and how the so might feel shut out and used by the cd. I thought that perhaps it might help some of us come to a better understanding. I understand that you have a great and wonderful relationsip with your hubby but you don't have to be hurtful to others who may not have that in their relationship.
Kitty

I read bitterness and anger from kitty's original post. Of course not all situation are the same. I've been with my husband for almost 2 decades and although I new for almost the whole time, I choose to "reject it" and "control him". 3 years ago, after sitting together and without pointing fingers and blame, asked of course millions of questions and I realized the "hell & agony" I had been putting him tru by not letting him be "himself".

We than started to "play" together. My husband is very comfortable in he's sexuality and mostly does it as a "fetish". I trust him and I'm soo in love with him. I KNOW this as brought us closer to each other. We have fun together. I love him as a husband and "en femme". I love his feminity when he dresses. I ENJOY it. I buy things for her, give her pointer's:tongueout

I give him the freedom that he needs. We have kids, and strongly beleive it is between the two of us and no one else's. That said, sometimes it makes it difficult for us to "play together" so I make sure I go out for an afternoon and take the kids with me while I leave him at home and he can dress. I always give him the time we will get back, so there's no risk in "getting caught" OR we make plans just the 2 of us for a weekend get away in another city......very exciting!! We also do it at night while the kids are sleeping. I also go away for 2 weeks in the summer with the kids and make sure it's during he's "days off" so if he wants to, he can stay dressed all day!! We have a very strong relationship and communicate a lot.

I beleive lots of GG's are doing it to "please" their CD husband and it creates lots of anger and bitterness. I do it cause I ENJOY it. I don't believe love keeps tab's: I did it for you, you do it for me. It's not fair to make someone do and be someone they are not. There's lots of things my husband don't enjoy and I do. We do things "alone" and "together", dressed or not. Life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, if you cannot "forgive""forget" and move on , than "move out". I'm not saying this applies to you cause I don't know your situation. But that's my opinion. Life is too short to be angry and bitter and that's what this post sounds like to me.

Sincerely,
Wifeofsissy GG

i think kitty is trying to come up with a common ground. so we can all understand how to deal with CD issues , it must be the hardest thing a woman as to deal with , then when she give us an inch we take a mile and can't understand why our S.O are upset
it must be painful for the wife to see her man in a dress or understand why he wants to go out en femme even worse want the S.O to go out with them and do this almost over night
what if your S.O wanted to dress as a guy ? try making love with the thought of making out with a guy in your head how would you feel then ..
we need to find balance and understanding how can we do that if all we do is take take take .. there as to be some give as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wifeofsissy GG

I read bitterness and anger. Of course not all situation are the same.

---

I agree and did not mean to be mean in my responses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittypw GG

Wow Louise I didn't expect to see another gg being so negative.

---

I have been the long suffering martyr in the past. carin has been the withdrawn, everything revolves around CDing husband. I KNOW this story. I have lived it! I was trying to be honest not hurtful and for that I apologize.



Louise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wifeofsissy GG

I beleive lots of GG's are doing it to "please" their CD husband and it creates lots of anger and bitterness. I do it cause I ENJOY it. I don't believe love keeps tab's: I did it for you, you do it for me. It's not fair to make someone do and be someone they are not. There's lots of things my husband don't enjoy and I do. We do things "alone" and "together", dressed or not. Life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, if you cannot "forgive""forget" and move on , than "move out". I'm not saying this applies to you cause I don't know your situation. But that's my opinion. Life is too short to be angry and bitter and that's what this post sounds like to me.

Sincerely,
Wifeofsissy GG

---

You make a good point, doing something you don't enjoy does cause bitterness and anger. I myself enjoy my hubby's cd'ing I just don't want to enjoy it as often as he does. My hubby is also free to cd at his leasure since he is mostly at home all day alone. He does the laundry so I would never know if he is taking advantage of his freedom or how often.

Both people in the relationship have to meet somewhere in the middle.
What is the key thing to understand about eachother to get to a point of mutual sastifaction do you think?

I think communication is paramount. Doing the isolation thing only lends for misunderstand and misinterpretation of the reasons behind it. Just a thought.
:hugs: Kitty

I personally think that Stephenie may be the closest to this situation. It is the obsession with doing what you want and ignoring the desires of the other person that causes most of the problems, in my opinion. I personally know 2 men who ended up divorced because they would rather spend time working on their model railroad then spending time with their wife. When anything becomes an obsession, you better hope that your SO shares the enthusiasm for that activity or you'll be heading down a one way street to being alone, unless you can step back from it and realise that your SO didn't marry you to be alone. I know this from personal experience, I killed my first marriage that way, she wanted me to partisipate in some of her outdoor activitys, but I was too busy to take the time to be with her. She was lonely for a long time and finally found someone else to share her activitys with. My fault! that was 10 years ago and it still is a regret for me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt me to take some time and go for a walk in the woods with her, but I was too wrapped up in my workaholic nature, and my long standing depression that I didn't know was depression.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

This whole thing can become a ravaging monster if not checked. It becomes a power struggle where there are no winners and which leaves both partners with hurt and bitterness. Trust me, I know. I have to cite what Karren brought up. Why did the CDer get married to begin with and possibly have a family if he did not want to share his life with his SO? Obviously, he loved her of course, probably very much so the way a man loves a woman. A man, however, with conflicting feelings and emotions that co-erce him to act on those feelings in a very demonstrative way with no deference to the feelings of his beloved SO.
This society is indeed a tough one. Men are supposed to be strong, confident and self-assured. This is a lot of pressure sometimes and while most of us do enjoy being a man and everything that goes along with it, our softer feelings come up and are very hard to deal with sometimes because we are supposed to be "tough guys". Yeah, right! I cry more at weddings and sad movies than my wife ever did and get very emotional.I cried for joy with my wife when all our babies were born and I mourned with her when she lost one. This was a true partnership and those years and times are golden to me.
Still, undrneath it all, there is a nagging feeling that we, personally, are not complete. I think some of us are born this way or at least pre-disposed to it and maybe childhood enhances it and we get envious that girls seem to be treated preferentially and we wanted the same thing. I felt that way and there was no way you were going to knock that out of my head. So, why get married? Quite simple really, she was a woman, I was a man, seems simple enough, for most people anyway.
When I first came out to her two years after we were married, we had a lot of discussions. She tried to convince me that there is nothing "glamouous" about being a woman no doubt with the physiological effects in mind but I just couldn't see it. All I could see was the "glitter" and prettiness of it which merely adorn the body of a person with a beautiful spirit. Most of us unknowingly want to emulate that spirit but all our obvious physical efforts pale in comparison at best.
Back to Kitty's topic, we know what the issues are and we are a couple. We love each other and want to make this work, despite the fact that it does not appear to be "normal". We need to talk to each other, work with each other. We are obligated to think of the other person and not just ourselves, especially if we are in a committed relationship and most especially if we have a family. It's not about "me", its about "we". Love and mutual respect goes a long way and certainly covers a multitude of sins. I know I preach a lot about respecting one another for the person we are inside and it's no different here, more so in a relationship.
It all looks good on paper, my friends. When we get down the nitty gritty raw bones things that motivate us to do what we do, do we pass muster? Does it really work? That is what shows who we truely are as a person and what is really in our hearts. The whole is truely greater than the sum of it's parts in this case. The results depend on us and our sincere loving efforts.:happy:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmberTG

I personally think that Stephenie may be the closest to this situation. It is the obsession with doing what you want and ignoring the desires of the other person that causes most of the problems, in my opinion. I personally know 2 men who ended up divorced because they would rather spend time working on their model railroad then spending time with their wife. When anything becomes an obsession, you better hope that your SO shares the enthusiasm for that activity or you'll be heading down a one way street to being alone, unless you can step back from it and realise that your SO didn't marry you to be alone. I know this from personal experience, I killed my first marriage that way, she wanted me to partisipate in some of her outdoor activitys, but I was too busy to take the time to be with her. She was lonely for a long time and finally found someone else to share her activitys with. My fault! that was 10 years ago and it still is a regret for me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt me to take some time and go for a walk in the woods with her, but I was too wrapped up in my workaholic nature, and my long standing depression that I didn't know was depression.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

---

when the TG/CDer has a partner that is not fully on board and is trying to control the CDing situation. I know this because I was this!


Louise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carin's Wife GG

when the TG/CDer has a partner that is not fully on board and is trying to control the CDing situation. I know this because I was this!


Louise.

---

Oh but Louise who is controlling who? There are two sides to every coin. If a partner is ok with the cd'ing but doesn't want a steady diet of it, and gives the ok for them to dress when they are home alone whenever they feel like it and if the CD still resents the SO for their lack of participation then, isn't the CD being unreasonable and somewhat controlling himself? I guess that if my hubby came up to me and explained that it would mean a lot for me to participate on any given night I would probably oblige him. But if he just quitely resents me for not participating then his anguish is of his own doing. I see this very thing happening a lot. Instead of really talking to their partners, the CD quietly resents his situation accuses their partner of being unaccepting and isolates himself. The SO feels resentful, about being shut out of her hubby's life and crossdressing easily gets blamed there by causing them to not want to participate. In my own head I guess I keep comming back to communication, and mutual respect for eachother.

Thanks for the appology by the way, I don't hold grudges and everyone is entitled to their own opinion it is hard to tell sometimes what people intend to convey when you don't have the benifit of body language and a real time conversation. :hugs: Kitty

A little background before I answer questions. I have never had a girlfriend that knew about my crossdressing. Though I did some (at her request) with a girlfriend in high school. Excited then scared, asked to stop.
I love going shopping when asked, but always through a bit of "huff" as to cover my tracks. I was reluctant to do things with my last girlfriends family and some of her interest but I think that was mainly due to being a selfish jack-ass at the time, not related to CDing. Anyway thought that might help put my answers in perspective...

How do the CD and SO find common ground?
I don't know if common ground is any different to find than with a non-CD, and if I knew that I probably wouldn't be single right now.. :D

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?
This is a tricky one. All I got is "I love sharing CDing with you, and I would love it if we shared some of these other things too"

Will the CD always consider it as a form of control over the CD by the SO?
I could see it being easy for a CDer who came out after the relationship got serious to feel that their CDing is only allowed at the whim of the SO.

If caring and enthusiasim are not forthcomming from the CD for activities that are important to the SO how will the SO ever shed the feeling of being an object?
I don't think everything needs caring and enthusiasim from the other person. I also don't think that is what you where saying. If all that is in common is each other then there isn't much there in my opinion.

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

Well in the given senario the SO seems like she as becoming miserable so, no I don't thing that is or the makings of a successful partnership. The CD is kind of a jerk/bitch and the SO seems perfect. Though I don't doubt those relationships exist, I just wanted to point that out somewhere.

The CD in this situation might possibly be helped by talking with a therapist to get a clear understanding of what the crossdressing means to them- not necessarily in this case, but some CD's wish to live 24/7, without going the route of hormones & surgery. Complete disinterest in anything not involved with CD'ing indicates something is going on that needs investigation.
Couples therapy would be helpful for both in the relationship, to work on communication & some kind of compromise if possible. The SO's passive-aggressive response indicates that some communication is lacking on both sides.

i feel that the cd is acting like a spoiled child and either needs to be spanked or needs to seek therapy or counseling. if he cannot live with the the relationship where she helps him then he is not adult enough to be in a relationship and should go back to wearing diapers and having mom take care of him.life is for sharing, not just what you want but what also what your partner wants ( also your boss and your freinds.)

I realize now I'm not alone in saying wow! This is a great discussion, Lawren and I already are talking about some of the things I've wondered about, and thank you for bringing this up and the honesty I've read in here.

Hi

I agree with Stephiene too. The arangements that we CDs get our self into is tough enough. I THANK GOD I am in a different situation my SO thinks I don't dress enough. The CD in question is like a little kid, [ if I don't get to dress ,go shoping , clubing with my girl friends I will hold my breath until I turn blue]. If you are married an your SO will do all those types of things that you like, you better kiss her you know what. If you are willing to let her go, put her name an adress on here an start the bidding you have a CDers gold mine. I have one an I will tell you I go to concerts, plays her friends homes, we have a pact that if there is any one that she thinks should know we have a signal or I we will talk about it first in privite an then go with the flow. If this is a case study I feel sad for the SO an would like to hold her an tell her she is a great girl. I let my SO know all the time how much I appreatate all aspecks of her life.


Josephine

Kitty,

If I miss more then a few days working out, well I get grumpy, miss meeting the boys for shooting, etc. But on the same hand I get grumpy when my wife and I don't get a chance to be with each other, going out to dinner, camping hanging out at the mall. Sometimes I get a bit carried away with CD'ing, or working out, or hanging with the boys, even my wife and I reach a point where we both need our space. To me, Family comes first, then work, keeping the house clean....................and on.

Just my thoughts.

Kisses.

SandyR

Well, I'll give this a shot. First of all, for those of you who don't know, I am married to a most wonderful lady. I self-impose some restrictions on my CDing, not because she asked me to but because I love her and I know some things would make her uncomfortable. But then again, that's true of many other non-CDing activities as well, so point number one would be that CDing is not the issue but a symptom of some other issue. Many have mentioned it... it's communication, or more specifically, the lack of it!

But I would suggest that there may be a deeper issue here that needs to be addressed. I have to question whether the relationship, as described, is based on love. Love is not about keeping scorecards, or bartering, or, positioning ourselves in the relationship, or seeing what is in it for ourselves. Love is not at all about self but is all about dying to self. It's about putting our partner's needs and well being ahead of our own. If both partners approach the relationship with that kind of attitude, I guarantee that that both partners will be fully satisfied emotionally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually.

Of course this is an ideal situation but then again, this is hypothetical situation... but it should give us all a goal to strive for. "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (I Corinthians 13:4-7, NIV)

Holly you are so sweet. I love that Corinthians verse. I think that you are so right but don't you think that you have come to this conclusion because you have accepted and love yourself? When this is achieved then you don't sweat the small stuff so much. There is no need for sneeking, hiding or lying about your desires. Heck you may not even be lying but more unsure of who or what you are. Don't you think a lot of the struggles that some go through are directly related to self hatred or confusion about where on the CD spectrum you are?

For So's, and I have said this before, it is fear of the unknown that causes most all of the anguish. Yeah some are oposed to crossdressing due to religion or upbrining but most of it is fear. I have known about and started to get involved in the cd community about 8 years ago. Ever since the first day I had contact with other SO's I have heard complaint after complaint that their husbands shut them out. They isolate themselves, are moody and get caught at lies either directly or by words and actions not matching.

I understand the risk that some are taking by being honest about their inner feelings but isn't the imagined always the worse senerio? Why shut someone out of your life that you suposedly love? Even if you don't know where things are going wouldn't it be better to keep your SO in the loop?

So many questions and very few answers it seems. I do think that self acceptance and self forgiveness should be the goal of every individual.
Kitty

So I return from a service call where I have admitted that I damaged a component of a customers instrument, and insist that we need to provide a replacement free of charge. My manager looks at me and says "You know what I really like about you most - your honesty and integrity". He pauses and says "You know what I really hate about you? Your honesty and integrity". We have a good laugh, I get and install the part I damaged and everyone is happy.
Well, as regards Kitty's post, I would have to admit that I am pretty guilty of just about everything she has written, although perhaps not to the degree implied. There's no way around it, I'm not going to get all excited and worked up about a visit to her relatives (mine all live thousands of miles from here).
My wife has accused me of exactly what Kitty has written, and I'm not fool enough to argue it is not based in truth. She gets angry that I don't come up with ideas for places to go - it bugs the hell outta her that she has to plan it all. For example, she loves to go camping, but after 12 years in the Army, I HATE camping. There is no happy medium there! :-)
Right, wrong, darned if I know, but there are some things that excite and thrill me, and there are somethings that don't. I don't fight and make her drag me kicking and screaming to visit her family, and I also don't give her a bad attitude and make her feel guilty for it while there. Am I excited and enthusiastic "come on babe, let's load up the rug rats and go!"- not really.
No answers here I guess, just ranting . . .
Kim (the bad husband)

ok, problem#1, obviously this is not a purely hypothetical situation, by the way it is written there are some(at least) personal issues involved here. it is not possible to give a purely objective opinion when you know someone elses feelings are involved. by our nature we lean a bit on the sensitive side, and tend to be careful not to be offensive. if you want a truly objective opinion, ask a group of people who have no stake in the hypothetical situation. 90% of the people here are either CDers or SOs and will feel some empathy to one side or the other, eliminating the possibility for objectivity.
problem#2 honesty. neither side seems to be communicating their needs clearly. being honest about your desires and objectives for your relationship is the only way to build something that will stand the test of time. anything less is a self inflicted shot to the head.
IMHO this relationship, hypothetical or not, has much larger issues than CDing. honesty,understanding,maturity, and a sense of compassion on both parts, for all issues, seem to me to be the primary issues that need to be adressed before either person could be happy. above all else, a marriage,or any committed relationship, is a partnership. if both people are not on the same page in that aspect,then there is no chance of success. one last thought, for those of us that are married and finding these issues to be a stumbling block. how important are your vows to you? what value can you place on the words"for better or worse"? in my personal experience, my wife and i have put each other through hell and back several times in our 7 years of marriage, yet each time we have worked things out and come out stronger and more committed to each other every time. we are just beginning our journey into this aspect of our life,and i dont expect it to be any easier than any thing that has come before,but previous experience has taught me that if we try, we will find the strength to make it. my absolute best wish is the same strength and devotion for all of you!

Christina Marie,
You are right the senerio is not totally hypothetical but a sort of combination of personal expirence and the expirences of other gg's that I have listened to over the years. You are also right about not being totally objective. If my hubby had come up with the senerio's there would have been a slightly different slant. I wanted to attempt to start a discussion on spousal acceptance and bring up the fact that many SO's feel shut out of their CD's life.

Most often when I read posts from CD's complaining about their wive's non acceptance I feel that it is really not related to crossdressing at all. The same can be said for the So's position. Her non accptance really has little to do with the crossdressing but more to do with fear. Sometimes we can be our own worst enemies.

For instance, CD tells So that he doesn't want to be a women just emulate one occasionally. So trys to accept that but catches hubby at a lie about chatting with others on the internet or catches him spending lots of time watching transexual porn. He also goes overboard with the dressing. So goes into fear mode because words and actions don't match and CD is shutting her
out. Since we can't read eachothers minds, it is human nature to make up possible reasons for the words and the actions not matching. He must be gay, he must want to be a women, I hate the crossdressing. Really she hates the lies and the lack of communication. He hates the reprocussions that her fears bring. Not really about crossdressing.

Again we come back to a lack of communication. The relationship errodes to the point of dissolution and crossdressing gets the blame from both the CD and the SO. So lets think beyond the crossdressing and get to the nitty gritty. The things that we can do to make our situations better.
What can the CD do to help eliminate the fears of his SO? What can the SO do to help the CD be honest about his feelings and desires?
:hugs: Kitty

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittypw GG

CD: When not crossdressing the cd is moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative. Personal human interaction is replaced with surfing the internet. When the cd has free time to spend with the SO and if crossdressing is not suggested, the CD finds some activity that does not include their SO and seldom suggests activities that do not involve crossdressing. The CD seems to have no interest in suggested activities like going to a movie or junk shopping unless the focus is on finding dresses or shoes for themselves. The CD only reluctantly participates in activities that the SO finds important or are obligations to family or friends such as weddings, annaversaries etc. Get togethers with work friends is not very important but the CD will go reluctantly and bring it up as a proof that he participates in the SO's life. The CD feels that the SO controls the crossdressing because the SO's participation is crucial in the eyes of the CD.

---

If you replaced crossdressing with a hobby and showed this to non-cd wives then many would recognize it and cry out "That's my husband!" These behaviors have got nothing to do with crossdressing itself and everything to do with a "hobby" which has become a dominating factor in a relationship and which the two partners cannot agree upon how it should be handled which causes resentment and hurt on both sides.

If the relationship is not working as it should but you still want to stay together then you need to agree to take stock of what has transpired and start again from scratch, this time building a new framework together from the ground up which actually works. This requires both parties to be honest about their needs and wants, likes and dislikes, forgetting whatever has been said or done in the past.

The couple may find that there is no possible framework that works in which case they would be happier apart. I would also suggest that in any new framework that crossdressing does not take central stage and is not made a BIG issue. I think the nature of the relationship has made crossdressing balloon into a major problem when it should really just be another tick in the checklist of relationship issues.

Good suggestions Satrana, :D :hugs: Kitty

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittypw GG

What can the CD do to help eliminate the fears of his SO? What can the SO do to help the CD be honest about his feelings and desires?

---

Fear is often irrational - fear of the dark, fear of spiders etc. In the case of SOs I guess fear of the unknown. No matter how many times a CD may say he does not want to transition, is not bisexual etc, does the fear not remain?

For me this is really just a mindset. Does the SO trust her husband implicitly, if so she must believe him and let go of the fear. Similarly a CD must trust his SO and not fear that she will one day turn around and call him a freak, pervert and walk out on him. If not he will continue to hide or downplay behavior which he thinks will make him an even bigger wierdo in the eyes of his SO.

Hi Kitty----given the scenario you have drawn in your post (and what I know about your personal situation) your problem is one faced by many women and by some men. If you left out the cd part of it (which in moderation you are not only ok with but actually enjoy) it is the old familiar story of one spouse trying to do everything in a marraige to make it work and the other spouse totally insisting on having everything their way 100&#37; of the time. Most successful marriages where both couples are reasonably happy (and nobody is happy 100% of the time) consist of a series of compromises to make both parties satisfied. For example, if the husband likes golf and the wife doesn't, the husband will still stay at home with his wife one day in a weekend on a regular basis, not because he wants to give up a golf day, but because he knows that doing so will make his spouse happy. Likewise the wife won't begrudge her husband playing golf once a week. The problem occurrs when one spouse wants their way all the time---playing golf two days a weekend and three nights a week, or never playing at all. It sounds like your husband needs a life outside of cding---from what I can tell, he sounds like an obsessive/compulsive type of person who has an all or nothing attitude. The fact of the matter is the picture you have drawn of him is that of a selfish overindulged child who is using crossdressing as a way of controlling you. I assume that you have talked to him about it on many occasions to no avail. Have you tried marriage counselling? If so and it hasn't worked, then you have a decision to make, and not a very easy one but one only you can make---nobody can do it for you. Good luck

"I am confused..." OK I don't really know if he did say that, but probably!:straightface:

Albeit a pseudo-hypothetical situation, the original tone is clearly a one-sided expression, so I will NOT comment on the hypothecy. Objectivity is not possible without access to both perspectives.

Nonetheless, some of the questions have validity in the context of any relationship where there is a dominant concern riding on the relationship, in a generic sense but also in the specific of crossdressing/transgendered behaviors.

There are two questions in particular, pardon me of rearranging the order and editing out the qualifier:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittypw GG

Questions to ponder:

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership?

How do the CD and the SO find some common ground?

---

My answers to those questions are Yes, and, It requires hard work of a persoal nature.

IMHO, crucial to a relationship with dominant issues is the concept of ownership of those issues, and responsibility of the effects. By example, if both partners have a devout interest in cooking, then they take joint ownership in the pursuit of that activity. If one partner, but not the other has a strong interest in Buddism then that partner must take ownership of that interest and take responsibility for the effects or consequences (good or bad) of that on the relationship.

Ownership of the activity and responsibility for the outcomes go hand in hand. Consideration for the relationship plays an important part in the activity, but does not convey any rights of ownership or responsibility. I own what I do, I am responsible for what I do. This applies to both partners, and servers to seperate out practical or emotional control of each other from control of the activity.

In the context of crossdressing there is often a blindness factor on both sides. Who knows where this desire came from? Who knows what this is exactly? Who knows where it is going? Be prepared for a legitiimate "I don't know" answer from the crossdresser as well as from the SO. Even when I thought I knew the answers to those questions, I did not. Not because I was being deceptive to my SO or even to myself. I didn't know what I didn't know.

So how DO you find common ground. Start with ownership. The crossdresser owns the crossdressing. She takes responsibility for the crossdressing and its consequences - good or bad. Just as she would take ownership of primary hobby, a strong interest in a particular religion, participation in a volunteer orginazition. She owns responsibility for the activity and responsibility for the consequences of that activity. The spouse also takes ownership of her own activities, and their consequences. How do you equate or balance a Crossdresser's desire to dress with an SO's desire to visit family. You don't. They are seperate topics with sepearate ownership.

The crossdresser and the SO also own their own individual feelings and must also take responsibility of those feelings. By example, if the cd likes to wear a nite-dress to bed, she owns that decision and must take responsibility for the consequences - good or bad. The SO might get turned on by it and the fun begins, or the SO might reject the concept as unacceptable and they sleep seperated. Both partners must take responsibility for their own desires and feelings and for the impact and consequences on their partner. Each must convey (communications!! the perennial challenge) their feelings - good and bad - so that the other understands the consequences of their actions.

A Common Ground
The exploration of the workings of the human pshche can be most interesting. When the human is your partner, it can even get exciting. Few topics present a forum for exploration as well as the phenomenon of crossdressing /TG. In a relationship where the concept of TG is open, understanding your partners feelings through discussion and honest communication can be very enriching.

The Hard Work
Its not easy. Open and honest communication includes times of feeling rejected (both sides of the partnership). That is not easy. Taking responsibility for engaging in a particular activity that was received as hurtful by your partner is hard work. Being honest with yourself is hard work. This society does not condition us to to be honest with ourselves. We prefer to transfer culpability anywhere else. Getting what your partner was trying to say instead of reacting to what they actually said is hard work.

It doesnt work all the time. We don't know what to say. We are afraid to say. We say stupid things. We are human.

Relationships
My definition of 'Relationship' is "How we relate to each other". Human nature and survival of the species dictates that we start out in relationships at a more physical level. Evolution and time shifts that to a more emphatic, caring and nurturing level. When we get past what we do for each other we find what we feel for each other. When we get past what we feel for each other we find what the other is feeling.

Hmmm. That was a bit longwinded. But that is my :2c: worth.

Kitty, This is an outstanding thread been reading with much interest .
On your questions to ponder....except for the last ( come to that in a min)
I just do not know how you convey to him how these things should be important to you both or finding a common ground......because the control issues..... and he trys to turn everything around on you by being moody, sulking ect and acting the way he does when in social situations......I feel he is being passive-aggressive and he gets trys to get his way by stalling and withdrawing, sulking.How someone deals with that...I just do not have an answer.For me I'd prob not deal with it and go off and do my own thing....a recipie for disaster....
Now the last question to ponder..Is it possible the CD/SO couple to have a successful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

I'd say not with the status quo ...................but I know that there's always hope that you can save your relationship, to be willing to somehow comes to a compromise you both can live with.

In my experience of the way men tend to behave, when a man withdraws it is almost always (generalisation but true in most of my experience) not to elicit a particular response or get their own way in a form of passive aggression but instead is because of their own incapacity to handle their personal emotional turmoil. I have known plenty of guys (including relatives) who react just like this. They might throw themselves into work or a hobby, they may take up a new pasttime almost at random and devote every waking hour to it, they may go with barely an hours sleep for days on end.

This isn't done out of selfishness nor as a way of getting their own way but instead because they don't know how to handle, deal with, control, contain or even live with profound emotional states so they will avoid thinking about the actual problem and instead try and fill their every moment with something else until the situation changes or their unconcious minds have processed their feelings for them.

Any emotion can cause this, as long as it is strong, unfamiliar or difficult for the man. I've seen it happen with Love where the person fairly fled the woman he was interested in and spent all his time on a hobby. I've seen it happen with Fear, of aging, of failure, of mortality. I've seen it happen with grief, profound or even seemingly insignificant.

This isn't childishness but a profound and ingrained reflex heavily conditioned into boys from an early age. This is exactly how many boys are taught to deal with emotions in life.

I think that this is a perfect example of what is wrong with current masculine culture, with societies expectations of men. Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw. They are taught not to cry, not to show fear, not to show emotion, not to show sympathy, not to show too much interest in women unless it is sexual. They are taught to be thoroughly emotionally disfunctional.

I have seen women as well as men take part in this conditioning, mothers teacthing these lessons to children as much as their fathers or peers. I think it comes from artificial false and/or edxaggerated ideas of what males should be like. I have also seen that this can lead to violence (and I am not excusing that violence in any way) as I have observed that many men when unable to handle their feelings if forced to face an issue that they are trying to avoid even if it is tangentially related to their emotion will react with intense anger. It can be easier for some men to lash out physically at people trying to help them than to face their feelings.

Thankfully I have seen some improvement with these things over my lifetime, with the broader victories of feminism and the breakdown of traditional male roles, with reductions in entrenched cultural homophobia that had many men acting as extreme parodies of supposed 'proper' male behaviour to avoid the stigma of seeming gay, with the rise of acceptance of small displays of emotions.

There is still a massive amount of work needed before we can finally destroy the repressive ideas of a limited acceptable masculinity that have chained, twisted and stunted men for generations fueling self-hatred, fear and hatred of the different and inspiring many forms of violence. How many women, gays, transgenders and others have been bullied, assaulted or murdered because of their transgressions of these rules of acceptable masculinity? Because their actions against these remind the repressed of their own trapped inner conflicts?

How much suffering exists in the world because men are not able/allowed/encouraged to come to terms with their own inner nature whether emotional, sexual or gender expression?

Now I'm not sure if that is what is happening in this case, but I have seen this kind of behaviour hundreds of times. Certainly I think the CD in this scenario needs to explore and come to terms with whatever emotions are seething beneath the surface, causing the withdrawel. Communication is key, but there must also be a non-judgemental acceptance/acknowledgement of feelings-even ones that are selfish. The cause of the feelings could be seemingly small, but unless it can be admitted and faced it can't be dealt with.

Unfortunately, this is sort of what's been happening with Leah B and I. He can't seem to be satisfied with anything that happens because he hasn't yet gotten everything he wants. I tell him that it'll take time and we need to go slow but he gets upset. He very much resembles the original post CD right now. It's causing some relationship problems. Luckily, he's looking into going to a therapist and group meetings and stuff.

What an enlightening discussion, thank you Kittypw!!

I think so many things have been provoking good thought. But this just gave me an "AH-Ha!" moment!!:eek:
battybattybats wrote:
"Boys, especially in rural areas, are taught to disregard their emotions, to reject them alongside anything remotely considered feminine as weakness and a flaw."
I was raised by 2 older brothers, just like this!! Ok, enlightenment.

And , WOW, People, do you understand this? No one wants to, IMHO>
What Carin said, about BEING RESPONSIBLE AND OWNING YOUR ACTIONS. You can't make someone do something, without threat of harm, can you? Or why would you want to be responsible for someone else, isn't itHARD WORK ENOUGHto be responsible for yourself?

Like Carin said:"IT'S HARD WORK!!" :thumbsup: And many of us are taught by mentors, at very young ages had it BEAT into "us", that to work hard at making ourselves a better person can be sign of weakness!!
+? Isn't it a sign of your "Power" to make others take the blame for something you should "work hard" to do?
So, Kitty, this would take the question full circle? A CD fighting with ones self image is using the "male" ihherited right of "Power" to make someone else take the blame for not working hard/getting help/understanding how....for their "hobby"?

is in large part what has allowed Carin and I to get to where we are today. So thank you dear for pointing that out!



Louise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

Unfortunately, this is sort of what's been happening with Leah B and I. He can't seem to be satisfied with anything that happens because he hasn't yet gotten everything he wants. I tell him that it'll take time and we need to go slow but he gets upset. He very much resembles the original post CD right now. It's causing some relationship problems. Luckily, he's looking into going to a therapist and group meetings and stuff.

---

before we realized that neither one could change the other. It goes two ways. Both you and Leah are going through such a rough time right now. Looking at it from a distance it is all so familiar (and painful).

(I did it again, posted two posts when I could have just done one, so sorry mods!)

:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:


Louise.

First of all let me say that I am very impressed with the intelligent and thoughtful replys to this thread. I know that it will be helpful to more than just me.

Carin,
I think you are right, we all have to be responsible for and take ownership of our actions and our feelings. I think that when we place too much of the responsibility onto our spouses and they fail us in either not having the enthusiasim or the interest in whatever activity we want them to participate in we feel let down and many emotions can surface. I like what TxKimberly said about hating camping. Kim also said that he doesn't make it miserable or go kicking and screaming to activities that his wife really wants him to participate in when he is less than enthusiastic about participating. Sometimes you just have to buck up and put a smile on your face. I guess in a way you are responsible for wether or not you will have a good time. If you participate with a lousy attitude, lousy is what you will receive in return. If you participate with a good attitude, you might just have the time of your life. It is the law of attraction.

I want to thank you Battybattybats for your insight into the male expirence. You have brought up things I have not thought about. I do look at my hubby's withdrawal as passive aggression. I never really thought that he may not have the ability to handle or deal with the emotional turmoil that he might be going through. He was a career military man, tough as nails for 22 years. Now he wants to wear skirts???? I think that confusses him more than me. He also has it ingrained in him to dictate what we do and how often we do it in terms of the dressing. I think that is the master seargent in him. I guess that was his training. I am definately non military and get my neck hair up when the master seargent comes out. :straightface:

I feel sad that we as a culture can't give our boys more of an emotional training. I feel that I have done so for my son. He hasn't always appreciated it though. He was brought up to be sensitive and thoughtful and has the abiltiy to talk about his feelings. These traits have gotten him some ridicule though because these traits in a boy are considered "GAY" and he is certainly not gay but had some confusion about himself because he did not fit the traditional male model. Now he is proud to consider himself a feminist :happy:
He has gotten past the trying to fit in stage and is trying to be true to himself.

Batty I have read and reread your words and will take them to heart. It has given me cause to think a little differently and will apply that slant to situations in my relationship to my hubby. I thank you for that.

Now here is a question in response to your comments. Do men want to change this pattern? Do men want to get in touch with their feelings and find a way to deal with their emotional turmoil? Or is it too late to change and establish some introspective emotional language?
:hugs:Kitty

Kitty, To answer your questions in a personal way, I wanted to change the pattern. I found a way to get in touch with my feelings to end the conflicts and emotional turmoil. I found out that it's never too late and an old "dog" can learn new tricks. You have to want to do it though and it is not easy but well worth the effort. You also have to be totally honest with yourself and hold nothing back even if it's painful. In the end, you do take ownership of yourself.:happy:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salandra

Kitty, To answer your questions in a personal way, I wanted to change the pattern. I found a way to get in touch with my feelings to end the conflicts and emotional turmoil. I found out that it's never too late and an old "dog" can learn new tricks. You have to want to do it though and it is not easy but well worth the effort. You also have to be totally honest with yourself and hold nothing back even if it's painful. In the end, you do take ownership of yourself.:happy:

---

Sal, you give me hope and inspiration :love: Kitty