To Pass or Not to Pass?

Hello Tulip!
I don't know the degree with which I pass or do not pass. I think what I do accomplish is to be able to go out and blend. At stores, the mall or the movies I usually do not get stares, comments or hassled. When I go to places that I'm known I'm told that I have great outfits, look feminine and am pretty. For me, a 60 year old in a dress... that is great. I dress and try to be the best woman that I can be....and then scoot out the door. For me that is plenty, fun and an adventure each time that I go out.

Go for it, Tulip.
One of the up sides of getting older is that, in general, men and women do tend to become more andryogenous as the years add up. We all add a little girth, we all get kinda wrinkly, formerly perky breasts sag. Guys get man-boobs. In late middle age, when hotness isn't so much of a factor anymore, I think it's easier to 'pass'. At least that's what I'm banking on...

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

nor did I say that passing meant everything. I simply said that if one could pass... it 's pretty nice. What was it that I said that seems to have offended a couple of people?

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I realize it may not have been your intent, but your language sounded a bit smug.
You focused on what your experience has been, others of us focused on the bigger question: "Is it about passing so no one knows...or others know but the acceptance is the overall goal?"

This issue of passing or not is quite interesting. I have observed a lot of women who do not pass ;). I think passing can happen at times for most The desire has to be there first then the proper attitude. Learn how to hold yourself as a woman and the walk that would suit your frame. the right clothes a woman your age and build would wear. It would laso be nice to get a nice wig and have it professionally fitted and done up and then of course a good makeup artist. I think it you have broad shoulders then wear hip padding to balance your shoulders. Wear v neck to make your shoulders look narrower. These are a few things I have picked up on and there are probably many more. Observe women of all types you will be surprised at the variety there are out there.

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Originally Posted by Greymancd

This issue of passing or not is quite interesting. I have observed a lot of women who do not pass ;). I think passing can happen at times for most The desire has to be there first then the proper attitude. Learn how to hold yourself as a woman and the walk that would suit your frame. the right clothes a woman your age and build would wear. It would laso be nice to get a nice wig and have it professionally fitted and done up and then of course a good makeup artist. I think it you have broad shoulders then wear hip padding to balance your shoulders. Wear v neck to make your shoulders look narrower. These are a few things I have picked up on and there are probably many more. Observe women of all types you will be surprised at the variety there are out there.

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Touche! Agree completely!

A line skirts work! They lift the attention away from the waist and from the chest area. The trick is about drawing the eye away from your weak points... Clothes that minimise the shoulders and emphasise hips... Designing girls clothes is a mutli billion dollar industry! They spend their lives dedicated to understanding the clothes that work! This is not a natural male thing... get into the psyche...

There are very tall athletic women, what do they wear?

I think a major problem we all have is trying to be who we aren't, and this is true in real life. The key to success (and I am not there yet by a long stretch!) I suspect is playing to what we have ... that's what the girls do!

Firstly, I don't think I will ever pass. Mainly because of my height and athletic build. But ya know what....so what!

I present myself the best I can, and have a lot of fun getting out and about.

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Originally Posted by Phoebe Reece

I personally think "passing" is overrated. I used to worry about it when I first started going out, but soon realized that there was no way I would pass in all situations. Nothing ever bad happened as a result of being "read" as a crossdresser, so I stopped being concerned about it and started having a good time.

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Originally Posted by t-girlxsophie

I dont pass,but am happy to be out there enjoying my girlie time.

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I relate closely to these two posts.
Thank you Phoebe and Sophie.

Tash :)

'passing' (smile)

Some of my sisters, blessed with the right genetics and some talented make-up artistry and acting ability 'pass' so well that they can do anything and go anywhere.

Others like your SO, and me, will never 'pass' in that sense. However, as others have noted. 'Passing' is not the only goal. One can 'blend'. From a distance, no one pays any notice and, truth be told, even up close most people don't notice, don't care or like to prove how liberal minded they are ... and even if they do notice, they pretend not too. Is that enough. Hell yes. I don't care if I pass as long as people treat me with respect and I can be the me I want to be.

I may never be able to wear a bikini at the beach, as some of my sisters do (deep sigh) ... or fly en femme to a business meeting (at my height and weight, I'd be taken for a bad guy in disguise - smile) but I'm content to shop, go out to dinner and hang with friends (and, as you say, loved ones) when I can.

Your SO is a lucky guy to have you ...

Regards,
Susan

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

I realize it may not have been your intent, but your language sounded a bit smug.
You focused on what your experience has been, others of us focused on the bigger question: "Is it about passing so no one knows...or others know but the acceptance is the overall goal?"

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The OP asked for our take and specifically for the experience of those who have been able to pass. I simply related my experience. Where does snug come in? Do I sound smug because I enjoy being able to pass, or do I sound smug because I have the audacity to say... I can pass? :strugglin

Kel

"the box boy will walk past the mom with her three kids and two carts of groceries and ask if you need help carrying a gallon of milk to your car. The hardware guy in home depot ignoring 10 other customers in his isle....to help you first. Cuts in line" - there are GG's your age who don't get that kind of treatment.
How does that mom feel? How do the 10 customers feel?

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Originally Posted by AllieSF

I personally am fortunate because I am short, small boned, petite ..... I work at fitting in, blending in and being accepted by those with whom I converse, and that is with everyone I come into contact with when dressed! I believe that if one has the correct attitude, confidence and personality, they can accomplish the fitting and blending in with others while out.

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

If you can pass it's like walking through a magic door that is usually reserved for GG's.

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Originally Posted by Phoebe Reece

The real problem with "passing" is one of definition. If "passing" means that someone thinks you you are a genetic female when you are not, then very few of us will meet that definition all the time. However, if "passing" means that you have been accepted as the woman that you are presenting, a much larger number of us will achieve that. The thing is that unless you ask someone, you never know for sure if that person really thinks you are female or if they just accept you as the woman you are presenting.

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I agree with the above comments. I'm 5ft 4ins tall, 130lbs, with US women's size 8 feet. I generally dress the same as GGs my own age. I go out to mainstream places ranging from the grocery store, to fast food restaurants, to the mall, to Walmart, etc etc ... and I'm fairly sure I pass pretty good from a distance. Up close? .... I have no idea, as almost all of the time, people do not let me know that they have read me, but do they know? ... or do they think I'm an ugly woman with too much makeup on? .... just like Phoebe said: "... unless you ask someone, you never know for sure if that person really thinks you are female or if they just accept you as the woman you are presenting" Whatever the answer, I don't care one way or the other ... just as long as they don't give me a hard time I'm ok with whatever they are truly thinking.

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

"the box boy will walk past the mom with her three kids and two carts of groceries and ask if you need help carrying a gallon of milk to your car. The hardware guy in home depot ignoring 10 other customers in his isle....to help you first. Cuts in line" - there are GG's your age who don't get that kind of treatment.
How does that mom feel? How do the 10 customers feel?

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I don't know how those people feel Karen, but is it my fault that people treat me this way? If a girl is walking through the mall and a guy who is with his g/f stares and his g/f notices and gets upset...is the girl who is being stared at to blame? If the box boy walks past the woman... is it my fault? BTW.. I can carry my own gallon of milk. I am just saying that it happens. These things happen to gg's all the time, and I am sure that they take advantage of it.:straightface:

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

I don't wish to offend anyone, but i personally think that passing is only overrated if you can't do it.......

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Originally Posted by kellycan27

......Do I sound smug because I enjoy being able to pass, or do I sound smug because I have the audacity to say... I can pass?

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Kelly, I'm sure you will always be able to pass, especially going down the path you are traveling. I think what some of us would like to hear expressed from you, sometimes, is a little feminine empathy that has the ability to put herself in the place of others who are not so blessed and feel how they may feel. Because one day, in other areas of your life, you may need to come to us for empathy as well. :hugs:

Tulip:
Passing can mean many things from:
Do I look ok ..... does my outfit match and is my makeup ok
OR
When I am "READ" will people at least say I look nice.

OR
Can I walk into a room and be taken for female without question

I have been whistled at, laughed at and called “mam” all in the same day.

I prefer the “Do I look ok” version of passing because I know that some people don’t look to close and all they will see is a nice pair of legs while others examine everyone they see under a microscope and are very willing to point out the man in a dress.

If my goal was to be taken as a woman by J.Q. public then I had better get used to being disappointed with my results most of the time, so I try to look nice, relax and have a good time. If others like what they see cool and if not well I am not dressing to please others and I should not others decide how I present myself..

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Originally Posted by Jonianne

Kelly, I'm sure you will always be able to pass, especially going down the path you are traveling. I think what some of us would like to hear expressed from you, sometimes, is a little feminine empathy that has the ability to put herself in the place of others who are not so blessed and feel how they may feel. Because one day, in other areas of your life, you may need to come to us for empathy as well. :hugs:

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Let me tell you something, I didn't pop out of the womb being able to pass. It took some luck and a whole lot of hard work to get to this point. I have had my share of heartache, laughter, and ridicule. I live this 24/7 365 and have been doing so for nearly 8 years. I think I have paid my dues, and if some of you think that that i am somehow remiss for finally being able to pass as the woman I have always felt that I am and to be proud of what I have accomplished.. So be it.. But don't ever think that i have not suffered as much if not more than ( quote you) those "not so blessed". No matter how bad I may look or feel, I can't change back to my drabs and live to fight another day. I have to face it head on every single day. NOT everyone can pass, bummer, but it is what it is, and i didn't make the rules.

I think the young and beautiful Kelly failed to mention a major perk of passing, perhaps thinking it self evident. If you pass, there is no need for feeling scared or nervous. No worries about someone reacting badly to you, no worries about going to the bathroom, no worries about laughter or snide remarks. Kelly mentions all of the things you can have and get from being passable - what I mention are all of the things that you avoid if you were passable.
My ability to pass is entirely hit or miss - I have on some occasions, but on most I don't. This has given my rare glimpses at the life or perks that Kelly mentions. I have had doors opened for me, I have had men offer to help with my bags, and these are nice and affirming things. But more than that, when I do appear to be passing, I like the peace of mind it brings - the lack of worry.
So, having admitted that most of the time I don't pass, I can confirm part of what you mention in your OP. Being accepted is acceptable to me. I know I'm a male, they know I'm a male, and still they treat me with respect and courtesy. I'd rather pass, but I'll take this as second prize and do find my out and about time to be more than worth this.

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Originally Posted by Tulip

I am a GG who loves her transvestite pal.

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Christ I wish I could find a GG like you. Except...what if your 'pal' was, ok yea a regular guy you like but, instead of a simple crossdressing man, or transvestite, has a completely feminine personality normally held in check. And when there's the opportunity to allow her to surface and express, such as on a vacation like you suggest, he becomes she in an essential and genuine way. An authentic girl not only by style of dress, but by tone of voice & mood, behavior, tastes, thoughts expressed, feelings and attitude? Much as how an accomplished actor really gets into their character, becoming submerged in another personality, convincingly so, with no sense of play acting. But in this case where it isn't 'acting' but more like the free expression of an 'alternate personality', one that is female and well defined already - sort of a 2nd mind if you wanna call it that.

For example, I could never be viewed as a man (that would be kind of insulting or embarrassing) nor could I ever be with a man (it's repugnant I'm just not that way). I like women but to sleep with a GG woman has for me a way difernt feel, something of the character of what I can only presume to be what GG women must feel who are bi or lez. I certainly do NOT feel myself to be a "crossdressed man having fun". And yet I somehow know the guy in me feels hetero normal when making love to a woman. I'm just curious how you feel about someone like that? Is is exciting would it turn you on or too weird?

I mean...do you think after an initial period of adjustment and acceptance you could come to legitimately relate to me as a girlfriend - as you do your other gf's? If so, would this prevent you from having sex together, or make it more exciting? Would it bother you to be bi or lez, knowing thats how I'd view you as my friend? Of course - I am asking this respectfully - not in a personal way!!! Just wondering what a GG thinks bout this. Thnx.

Now that's a great question to start a thread with...I think there is a place on here to ask questions specifically of all GGs.

To be perfectly honest, my friend is a member and posts on the forums. We previously dated, so answering your question would be personal for us both. Start a new thread with this question, and you'll get many responses. I am sure : )

Passing isn't it- what you've said in essence Kelly is not just "I can pass and it has been wonderful," but also "guys find me hot stuff & I get special treatment because of it" - in the bigger picture of life, that isn't that special. There are greater things in life.We ALL age, we all at least eventually get ignored for the next "hot young thing" coming along.

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

Being accepted is acceptable to me. I know I'm a male, they know I'm a male, and still they treat me with respect and courtesy. I'd rather pass, but I'll take this as second prize and do find my out and about time to be more than worth this.

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Right on.

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

Passing isn't it- what you've said in essence Kelly is not just "I can pass and it has been wonderful," but also "guys find me hot stuff & I get special treatment because of it" - in the bigger picture of life, that isn't that special. There are greater things in life.We ALL age, we all at least eventually get ignored for the next "hot young thing" coming along.


Right on.

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I meant that if one can pass... Those are some of the perks. men treat girls differently than they treat other men. But that aside... I know that we all age, and I will too, but right now I am having the time of my life. When the time comes for as you say, the next hot thing come along..... s**t happens.
30 or 40 years down the road, I won't regret the things that I didn't do. In the big picture it may not be that special, but right now... it ain't bad. I am having a hard time understanding your objection to this. wasn't there ever a time in you life where you seemed to shine, and things were going your way?
A time when you felt special? Am I wrong?

Kel

You've implied passing equals being seen as "hot stuff" ( women come in a variety of forms ), & that girls ( GG's ) get such special treatment because they are female ( when as I mentioned the reality is there are GG's your age who don't get that special treatment from guys ).

Everybody knows that RuPaul has a penis, but she is manifestly more "real" as a woman. I think most people, of any persuasion, would be more comfortable relating to RuPaul in person as female, even though she is tall and somewhat muscular.

We have a spark inside that can energize our female presentation and argue that we be treated as female. We need to trust that spark and stop worrying about passing.

Kelly happens to be prettier than 95% of the population, and she is enjoying the benefits thereof--as each and every one of us would in her shoes. But she's a good egg, so don't get mad at her for recognizing her good fortune; get mad at the silly men who think she might sleep with them for carrying her groceries.

:) Lallie

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Originally Posted by LALady

. . .

Kelly happens to be prettier than 95% of the population, and she is enjoying the benefits thereof--as each and every one of us would in her shoes. But she's a good egg, so don't get mad at her for recognizing her good fortune; get mad at the silly men who think she might sleep with them for carrying her groceries.

:) Lallie

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THANK YOU! I was trying to figure out how to phrase my thoughts when you responded so very eloquently.
If you ask me, Kelly has done us all a good turn. She has given us a small gimps at what it is like to not only pass, but to be pretty and "hot" as your doing it. Her only offense here was in being honest and candid enough to bluntly admit it. I think there are very few, if any of us, that haven't wished and dreamed that we could experience the kind of treatment or adoration that Kelly mentions. I've met a few of the GG's on this forum over the years, and I'm fairly confident that many of them have received the same treatment that Kelly describes - they just may not feel it appropriate to comment on it.
Given the topic and question of this thread though, I think it was entirely appropriate for Kelly to share her experiences because that is exactly what the OP asked about!
Thanks Kelly, and I'll carry your gallon of Milk any time - right AFTER I take care of the mother with the full cart first. Getting older DOES come with a few perks, one of which is the ability to not be driven entirely by my hormones anymore. :D

My acceptance of myself as a CD has NOTHING what so ever to do with passing in public!

It would be FUN to be able to dress and pass ocassionally! But, since I can never pass, I don't feel the need to go out dressed!

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Originally Posted by Kelly Greene

Tulip:
Passing can mean many things from:
Do I look ok ..... does my outfit match and is my makeup ok
OR
When I am "READ" will people at least say I look nice.

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thats exactly the way I feel now about "passing" as long as I am treated with respect and maybe even just one person thinks theres a crossdresser.he looks not too bad.at least he made the effort-and i am left to enjoy my day out that would be a good femme time for me-out tomorrow so hopefully can have that day then

:hugs:sophie xx

A friend once explained passing this way to me, and I think it is appropriate for the discussion in this thread.

1. Not everyone has to have passing as a goal. If one doesn't care about passing, that is as valid as those who dress and do want to pass.

2. Those who dress and pass will be able to experience treatment by others (in some areas anyway) as a GG would and get the "authentic GG experience in public" (as they explained.) Those who don't pass will not get the same treatment, it may not be worse but it will not be the same.

3. Those who dress and go out and pass will not experience the potential harassment that those who dress and go in public and do not pass may be exposed to. If one passes, they can use the ladies room and other gender specific facilities without fear of trouble; those who do not pass must be very careful about restrooms to avoid being read and possible trouble.

4. Not everyone can dress and pass 100%. Some folks are fortunate and they easily pass because they look, sound and come off in person as female with little to no effort. Some folks may not be able to pass at all for reasons beyond their control (often a combination of voice, extreme height and build.) Such is life unfortunately, one can work very very hard but for some it will never be enough to pass 100%; all they can do is do the best job they can and accept themselves as they are, and use common sense in public to avoid possible trouble.