What is a person that doesn't CD, isn't about to TS, but wishes to be female?

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Originally Posted by Lesley_Roberta

What is a person that doesn't CD, isn't about to TS, but wishes to be female? I am seeking here of course, looking for answers, and wondering what are my options?, what is really required? and how far does a person need to go? Yes I want to dress correctly, but is it weird to not go that route?

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[SIZE="2"]When I read your OP I immediately thought of the movie Ma Vie en Rose, where a young boy dresses up simply because he believes he is a girl – in the context of the film, it’s less about crossdressing and more about an expression that cannot easily be made, especially in the heterosexual world that surrounds the boy. Upon seeing the movie, many gay gentlemen had this reaction: “You have described my childhood...” I got an insight into expression from this unsolicited response, and, based on the obvious, I would say there are many individuals who wish to be female, yet don’t CD or start along the path to SRS. In my mind, there is no way to “dress correctly,” in fact society makes things very difficult for us adventurous types – in your case nothing is required, so anything goes, and you are free to EXPRESS yourself anyway you choose...[/SIZE]

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I am not likely going to see transition in my life, so I will be stuck in a male body (yippee, insert lack of enthusiasm now). That leaves me in what I consider a crappy spot. I don't get to LOOK female, I don't get to be anatomically female, I just get to FEEL female. Bubble baths feel nice, and smelling pretty helps..... but no one is going to treat me like anything other than a guy.

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[SIZE="2"]Speaking as a MtF crossdresser, looking a little bit like a female helps, but the feelings I harbor are deep down inside and will be there regardless of what I wear, or what appearance I show to the world. Everybody treats me as a guy, and that helps me to preserve what is most precious, namely my blessed apart-ness – I can sit here NOT dressed and still feel very feminine, in fact the femme clothes represent just the outer layer of who I truly am. I think you’re lucky to feel female and be enthusiastic about it, although the world expects you to not dwell betwixt and between, as it were. But, it’s nobody’s business, and you need to be true to your “self” at all times – any dressing you may or may not do is merely icing on the already beautiful cake, if you ask me...
:battingeyelashes:[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Unfulfilled.

On two fronts. This is what you describe, a lack of fulfillment.

There are many of us out there who all things being equal would transition in a heartbeat, yet out of respect for the lives we have carved out, we choose not to go down that road. It's been called a "middle path" and while it can be a very difficult place to be, there are so many opportunities for fulfillment.

You see, I am on this path. I know a bit of what I'm talking about.

On the guy side, yeah, there is criticism that I am holding on to "male privilege" but in reality, I am holding on to many things that are dear to my heart. Things which I do not wish to implode with transition if I am able to be strong enough to stave off such fate.

On the girl side, I have found a wonderful existence full of friends and experiences that exists in a form of counter-balance with the guy side. Is this ideal? No. Is it 100% fulfillment? Not a chance. But as much as a pain as it is to maintain life on such a middle path, the rewards are there to be had. Different rewards but rewards nonetheless.

So with respect to your situation, if you eschew transition, then best to embrace your guy side enough to find fulfillment. On the female side, if bubble baths are enough to grant you some semblance of fulfillment, then terrific. Bath soap is much less expensive than a wardrobe. But if you want more, my advice is to seek out what will bring you fulfillment by finding balance and separation if necessary. It is possible, yet it's far from easy.



ps - A dear friend of mine who is no longer with us once conveyed a thought to me while in the throes of a transition which she was questioning that she wished she had what I had. This told me that when embarking upon transition, she thought it was her only option. A sad mistake because I believe that if she were able to explore the middle path, there is no doubt in my mind that she would be here today.

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Wow. This is probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. Thank you, Sara Jessica. :hugs:

Lesley, u can call yourself, "Macaroni", and we'll call u that, too! That doesn't mean u r a pasta, tho! No one can define who u r just by using words! U must determine that inside yourself. Whether or not others will understand precisely who u r depends on how well u know yourself.

Remember, we ALL have to compromise and sacrifice things to survive! Personally, I've always wanted to fly without wings. But, not badly enuff to jump off a tall building for a few fleeting seconds ending in certain death. I've learned to live with that limitation.

Similarly, I'd like for one moment to be mistaken for a female by others, in person. However, that is probably never going to happen. Even if the folks I come in contact with r blind! I just have to live with that, too.

In all my CD/TG years, I don't believe I've ever experienced an actual fem thot or feeling! It sounds like u HAVE! I think u should revel in those experiences! And, come to terms with those experiences u may not have!

Just remember, you're NOT supposed to know/experience everything about yourself or life by the time you're 20. Otherwise, what would be the point of living to 60? Try to ENJOY THE JOURNEY!

Hi Lesley

There is no right or wrong answer only a search for deeper understanding.

You may be walking two paths at the same time, one "feeling female" which in my opinion is innate and you were born predisposed to be this way and the other is trying to be a better human being. I see how it would be possible to think they are one and the same.

One is wanting to be less aggressive and thinking this is symbolic of female behavior.

Aggression can be for moral or immoral reasons and is independant of gender and both sexes are capable of it's moral or immoral expression, violence is universal.

The examples of behavior you have given are and can be done by either sex.

I would caution a movement toward the female as a rejection of the male based on thinking one is more or less moral than the other. I believe this could cause you considerable confusion.

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Originally Posted by Voulez-Vous

Could your post be any more confusing?
No, I kinda doubt that it could be.
Someone "told you" that you're TG and you don't even CD? Who is this rocket scientist?
You're talking about role playing games. Maybe you're just a confused young person?


It's totally impossible for anyone who's NOT female to accurately describe how it "Feels" to be female.

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:) Ok I am assuming you have not encountered my other comments, or some of your post would not have been posted.
Not going to be nasty, as I didn't like it when done to me.
I arrived at TG based on the many persons here helping me to understand how we use the words here. I wasn't told per se, I was given a list of options I might want to choose from that made sense to me.
By the way 35 years of training has actually made me a rocket scientist :) I don't know any celebs, but I know quite a long list of scientists I admire.
Thus the usual phrase 'well it isn't rocket science' really has no real use to me, I usually wish it were. For me, I'd need to say 'well at least it isn't sports statistics'.

Role games, you must have jumped to the conclusion I'm young. Nope, chances are I am substantially older than you. It was my demographic though that created the hobby back in the 70s.
I'm not saying I am not confused in some cases, I am not a young person (sure wish I was). You'd need to refer to my son for that. He's still young, becomes an adult this year though.

Maybe you should do some more on site reading dear before jumping in so aggressively. You will annoy us old buggers less that way :)

"It's totally impossible for anyone who's NOT female to accurately describe how it "Feels" to be female. "

Logically that makes sense, but the world is mostly an illogical place.

If I had a dollar for everything that made no sense in this world, I could take the whole forum out for dinner.

I put it to you, how do YOU know YOU are female? It's not just the plumbing eh. Correct plumbing helps in procreation, but it not one of us in a male body is really female, then there's a lot of people likely wondering why they are here.

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Originally Posted by Lesley_Roberta

"It's totally impossible for anyone who's NOT female to accurately describe how it "Feels" to be female. "

Logically that makes sense, but the world is mostly an illogical place.

If I had a dollar for everything that made no sense in this world, I could take the whole forum out for dinner.

I put it to you, how do YOU know YOU are female? It's not just the plumbing eh. Correct plumbing helps in procreation, but it not one of us in a male body is really female, then there's a lot of people likely wondering why they are here.

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Ok, I get it now. This is one of those rambling posts where you make up definitions as you go along. Fine. Whatever works for you. Have fun.

Two words ---> GENDER THERAPIST.

You need to find your place, many members here seek out a gender therapist if they believe they are TS or struggling with gender issues. It sounds like you need clarification and a path to follow. How can you ask your friends to consider you as a female if you don't look like one and jump back and forth between male & female personnas and have struggles between being both? It looks like an internal struggle to me, JMO. It will confuse the heck out of people.

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Originally Posted by Voulez-Vous

Ok, I get it now. This is one of those rambling posts where you make up definitions as you go along. Fine. Whatever works for you. Have fun.

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Voulez-Vous I don't wish to consider you beligerent, so I am merely pointing out it is sounding as such. I've made that mistake in my time, ie posting a comment that in retrospect came out sounding wrong. i have encountered 2 other individuals on site, and they DO appear uninterested in being anything other than anti social sounding. It happens.

So I am saying, try and lighten up, or I will take offense eventually.

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Originally Posted by Marleena

Two words ---> GENDER THERAPIST.

You need to find your place, many members here seek out a gender therapist if they believe they are TS or struggling with gender issues. It sounds like you need clarification and a path to follow. How can you ask your friends to consider you as a female if you don't look like one and jump back and forth between male & female personnas and have struggles between being both? It looks like an internal struggle to me, JMO. It will confuse the heck out of people.

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Due to see a conventional shrink on the 6th. I am unsure what the results will be. If it comes to nothing, or appears to be of no real use to me, I likely will most assuredly continue seeking for someone such as a GENDER THERAPIST as you mention.

I am trying to figure out where I stand in my own mess. I think therapy is a key step in figureing out your self and what it is you really want. Just make sure you do your research before you start sessions. Best wishes on your journey, where ever it may take you.
Xrys

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Originally Posted by Lesley_Roberta

Due to see a conventional shrink on the 6th. I am unsure what the results will be. If it comes to nothing, or appears to be of no real use to me, I likely will most assuredly continue seeking for someone such as a GENDER THERAPIST as you mention.

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Gender therapist is the only way to go. They are trained specifically in gender issues. You can ask members of this forum and they'll tell you the same thing.

I have experienced in my time, a shrink that was a complete waste of skin, a counselor that should have been flipping burgers and a guy that I thought might be better selling cars. It was NOT a good experience.

But a number of years later I ended up with the wife going to marriage counselling for another reason, and in time it just morphed into our going there to hash out problems in our mutually annoying lives. The woman mentioned early on 'most men rarely come to the second session'. Must be a failing of most men perhaps. I have no idea on that. But I continued to go and over a few years the woman managed to get a very detailed understanding of what made me and the wife tick.

So that's 3 against my liking the field of psychiatry and 1 in favour.
Recently saw a crisis counsellor for a few sessions, and I am ok with her, but she has only seen me 4 times, and really doesn't really know me much.
So I go into the meeting with the new shrink being cautious and a bit doubtful. And certainly believing I won't have much real benefit out of the first session at all.

It remains to be seen.
Not sure my small town really has anyone that specialized on hand.

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Originally Posted by Laura912

Two quotes: Yogi Berra "when you come to a fork in the road, take it." Do not know the other source, but "Above all else to thine own self be true."

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Polonius:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!


Laertes:
Most humbly do I take my leave, my lord.


Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 78–82

The one annoying angle I have, and I have told them as well.

I am Lesley when I enter their office. If they want to speak to Leslie, well I can't really guarantee he will come.

Well I really am trying to help here. Perhaps ask that one shrink for a referral to a gender therapist that may be close enough to go to. I truly believe gender issues are causing the majority of your problems. I'm not debating or questioning that you are TS. You need help to find a solution so you can move forward.

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Originally Posted by Lesley_Roberta

The one annoying angle I have, and I have told them as well.

I am Lesley when I enter their office. If they want to speak to Leslie, well I can't really guarantee he will come.

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He will come. He is you also. He just might not talk.:)

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Originally Posted by Lesley_Roberta

Voulez-Vous I don't wish to consider you beligerent, so I am merely pointing out it is sounding as such. I've made that mistake in my time, ie posting a comment that in retrospect came out sounding wrong. i have encountered 2 other individuals on site, and they DO appear uninterested in being anything other than anti social sounding. It happens.
So I am saying, try and lighten up, or I will take offense eventually.

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You can consider me whatever you want and you can take offense if you need to lash out at me. It doesn't bother me at all. I live in the real world. I see things and people as they really are. What I see here is a seriously confused, misguided person existing in some sort of fantasy world. I strong advise you to seek therapy. This forum is no substitute for therapy.

Voulez-Vous and Lesley_Roberta. You both need to carry on this conversation in a PM. The open forum is no place for this level of personal communication.

If any one of you responds to the other after this post, directly or indirectly, I'll delete your posts.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with anything you are describing in your original post. You are entitled to feel however you want, you are entitled to take any kind of baths that you want and you can dress however you want (male or female) afterward, you can watch any television shows you want and feel however you feel when you watch them. I am at a loss to understand the fairly aggressive tone in some of the posts in this thread, I think you can and absolutely should feel the way you feel without any second thoughts about it and you should enjoy every moment of your life to the fullest.

Lesley, I'm not being facetious here but perhaps you are trying to solve something that you are just too close to. You mentioned "rocket scientist" in a later post so how would you solve the same problem in asking the question:
I don't wear a lab coat, I have no intention of getting a degree in astronautical engineering and I want to be addressed as a rocket scientist.

Isn't this setting up a situation that must fail? Speed, price and quality are 3 conditions that art buyers always consider. You can get quick and dirty, you can have quality and pay for it, but there is no quick, cheap and quality artwork. You want all 3, and. it can't be done--given the normal marketplace. At some point you must make a compromise and decide to dress (and pretend). be a non-op TS and dress to pass , or some combination.

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Originally Posted by Lesley_Roberta

I am seeking here of course, looking for answers, and wondering what are my options?, what is really required? and how far does a person need to go?

Yes I want to dress correctly, but is it weird to not go that route?

You want to dress en femme, yet you choose not to?

I am not likely going to see transition in my life, so I will be stuck in a male body (yippee, insert lack of enthusiasm now).

Just like a few million more of us. Welcome to the machine...

That leaves me in what I consider a crappy spot. I don't get to LOOK female, I don't get to be anatomically female, I just get to FEEL female. Bubble baths feel nice, and smelling pretty helps..... but no one is going to treat me like anything other than a guy.

The option to dress, wear breast forms, makeup etc. to help you feel feminine is there for the taking. Those things will help you look a lot more female than you probably do in Leslie mode. Unless people see you as female they aren't going to automatically address you as female - they're going to address you as a guy because they can't see inside your head.

As I see it, that's just being doomed to getting ignored.

Every time I post, I hear this voice in my head asking, 'so why am I here again?'.
You're not a CDer, you ain't a transexual waiting on an operation, so what is you expect anyone to do about ya?

I am told I am TG, yet if I don't wear the clothes, I feel like some how I am just someone doing their best to make their life complicated for no gain. My friends are never going to use feminine gender language in speaking to me if I don't appear to be any different (other than my behaviour which I don't think is very significantly different from Leslie's). I mean I get, 'you listen to girl music' from some of my friends, and they think I am 'confused' for playing female characters in my role games.

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Do you have gender dysphoria - the feeling that you are really female but trapped inside a male body?

Have you tried CDing?

You seem a bit fixated on the clothes and outward presentation. Being TG is about your personal identity, not the clothing you're wearing. I'm a TG when I'm wearing male clothes and still TG when I'm dressed in women's clothes. Nor do physical attributes, such as maculine body or facial features determine whether or not your TG.

The other issue is a matter of semantics. Are you "wishing" or does part of you genuinely desire to express your femininity. From what you've written, it appears to be the latter.

Some are confused at my desire to be something I seem to not be taking the effort to be.

I am on hold in a waiting pattern basically, awaiting how my wife feels about it. Key detail in good marriages, is learning 'it isn't always about me'. I value her feelings on this.

@busker :) well if I started to list all that I know (in the realm of science history etc etc etc), I'd come across as the most preposterously arrogant person you'd ever met. So I won't be listing it :) (Leslie likely would, but that's him).