what is male mode?

To Confusedandalone: I, too, am a married crossdesser who presents in an androgynous style. I don't wear dresses and wigs, but I usually carry a woman's bag, wear light makeup, oftentimes jewelry, unisex tops, underdress, etc. I feel that my style of dress is helping to expand men's fashion which has become locked in predictable and unattractive modes. Why shouldn't men be able to wear more colors and finer fabrics? And lots of men carry bags today! Maybe it offends you because you, too, have accepted the common expectations of what men should look like. Your spouse is trying to expand men's fashion, but you go around mewing about your wounded expectations. Get with the program! Be a companion instead of a drag. If you don't like his "purse," buy him another suitable for male or female modes. The manner of his presentation is something the two of you can still negotiate, but the fact of his interest is part of who he is. Don't lock him in the cell of rigid gender roles when he's trying to escape.

I've never said it offended me, but your characterization certainly does. Mewing? He's not trying to expand men's fashion choices. He prefers women's fashion choices. His purse is a purse and he'd prefer one MORE feminine, not something I would be more comfortable with. At what point does he need to be more of a companion to me?

I don't care if he escapes but I do care if it's at the expense of our relationship.

Confused, a lot of earlier posts mention the discussion thing. Until you have that talk and he is aware of both your support for him and how his choices are effecting you, he is flying along happily believing you are 100% on board with him. If it's something that seems to difficult to bring up, you may want to try and get him involved here. As you can see there are a lot of us who have been through this and have your back and understand what he's facing as well.

He may feel pretty defensive when that door finally opens, so don't be surprised if he says some things that he may want to retract later. The pink fog can do strange things to our thought processes as well as what we believe we see in the mirror. If he's anything like me, he will take enough rope to hang himself good before realizing what has happened. Good luck to you both.

The OP wrote: "His version of CD at this point is women's clothes but still presenting as male (women's jewelry, shoes and maybe shirt, male jeans and jacket.) He sees this as still dressing male"

This is my mode all of the time. I consider myself to be a combination of male and female and usually wear women pants, women's sandals, red toenail polish, and a male shirt. I also carry a purse but it is not a really feminine style. I consider myself to be a "JaneGirl" which is the opposite of a "TomBoy". I am very comfortable expressing myself in this manner.

I believe that men's suits and ties are evil because the goal is to fore all men into a cookie-cuter image where everyone looks the same. Think about it. At a man's wedding he has the privilege of being dressed exactly the same as the waiter that is serving him food and drinks!! There is nothing sexy about a man's suit and tie. It is simply a uniform, whereas women's clothing has variety that allows for complete expression. Men's clothing is drab and BORING! If I had been born in the 1700's when men wore colorful clothing, wigs, and high-heels, I most likely would not be a crossdresser. To make the situation worse, men are taught that they must like the boring clothing options that are available to them, while women have been allowed over the years to incorporate almost all items from men's fashion into their wardrobe. There are even articles in women's magazines about how to incorporate boyfriend's shorts, shirts, men's watches, shoes, and other items into a woman's wardrobe, but there are never any articles in GQ Magazine describing how a man can incorporate women's fashion into his wardrobe. Do you realize that every style of men's shoes can also be found for women in the women's shoe department? There is definitely a double-standard that needs to be abolished.

While a few of us may be most comfortable presenting in a mixed male/female mode, as noted in a couple of posts, I think they need to be more aware of the tension this places on the CD's SO. While a full femme presentation can pass and not attract attention, a mixed male/female appearance is nearly certain to attract attention - and that attention would be quite negative in many cases. If you as an individual are willing to accept this, or you are fortunate to have a wife and friends who don't mind, more power to you. But I don't think we can reasonably expect a partner to have such attentions imposed on them. Please cut some slack for a well-meaning SO who is trying to adjust to difficult circumstances.

Miriam

Welcome to the forum!

When my wife and I discovered my feminine side, Tina, we did it together during our 34th year of marriage. I was overwhelmed with the fact that she was as curious about Tina as I was, so when she said that she was not attracted to my feminine self in any kind of erotic way I was more than willing to understand that point and was determined to meet her at least half way. I told her that nothing should ever come between us, and her enthusiasm about Tina led me to state that I certainly wanted to investigate Tina as much as possible, but when she wanted her man, she would get him, hands down. We also were of the same mind that my gendered selves are to be kept as separate as possible with clear demarcations: when it's Tina then it really IS Tina...all the way...no half-way measures...no confusions. When I'm male, then although I may wear panties, nothing on the outside would indicate that I am anything but male. Again, no confusion!

We thrive this way as it's a simple compromise. The marriage comes first and there are just times that we need each other as man and wife. When Tina is around we are best girlfriends and it is really fun for both of us.

I do hope you and your spouse can sit down and have an empathy for each other that will allow your marriage to grow and not wither.

My best to you!

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Originally Posted by marym

While a few of us may be most comfortable presenting in a mixed male/female mode, as noted in a couple of posts, I think they need to be more aware of the tension this places on the CD's SO. While a full femme presentation can pass and not attract attention, a mixed male/female appearance is nearly certain to attract attention - and that attention would be quite negative in many cases. If you as an individual are willing to accept this, or you are fortunate to have a wife and friends who don't mind, more power to you. But I don't think we can reasonably expect a partner to have such attentions imposed on them. Please cut some slack for a well-meaning SO who is trying to adjust to difficult circumstances.

Miriam

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You are correct that a mixed-male-female presentation (e.g. a male wearing a a combination of male and female items) may attract attention, but a person that is fully crossdressed that does not pass will attract even more attention. In my opinion, the mixed-male-female presentation can be more readily accepted because it is the same as what many women (TomBoys) do today by incorporating men's fashion into their overall look. These women are NOT trying to pass as a man yet they are accepted when incorporating men's fashion items. Men can do the same by incorporating women's fashion items into their presentation without attempting to pass as a woman. Why doesn't everyone see this?

My male mode is arylic nails, thin shaped eyebrows, ear rings, shaved legs, girls jeans or leggings and a girls top, plus a little make-up.

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Originally Posted by Confusedandalone

I'm really struggling with my SOs crossdressing. It's new to both of us but I'm feeling like the guy I fell in love with has vanished. I'm not attracted to women and I find his CD disconcerting. I much prefer him dressed as a man. However, he wants to dress as a woman all the time. His version of CD at this point is women's clothes but still presenting as male (women's jewelry, shoes and maybe shirt, male jeans and jacket.) He sees this as still dressing male.

Am I wrong to want to see him in a suit? I find him sexy as hell as a man and I wasn't looking for a new girlfriend!

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"Male Mode" is dressed and acting like a typical male.

It seems that you really want some other questions answered and I suggest using a more direct thread title for advice on how to deal with your husband's dressing.

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Originally Posted by Dawn cd

To Confusedandalone: I, too, am a married crossdesser who presents in an androgynous style. I don't wear dresses and wigs, but I usually carry a woman's bag, wear light makeup, oftentimes jewelry, unisex tops, underdress, etc. I feel that my style of dress is helping to expand men's fashion which has become locked in predictable and unattractive modes. Why shouldn't men be able to wear more colors and finer fabrics? And lots of men carry bags today! Maybe it offends you because you, too, have accepted the common expectations of what men should look like. Your spouse is trying to expand men's fashion, but you go around mewing about your wounded expectations. Get with the program! Be a companion instead of a drag. If you don't like his "purse," buy him another suitable for male or female modes. The manner of his presentation is something the two of you can still negotiate, but the fact of his interest is part of who he is. Don't lock him in the cell of rigid gender roles when he's trying to escape.

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HARSH, insensitive, and comparing apples to oranges.

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Originally Posted by Confusedandalone

I've never said it offended me, but your characterization certainly does. Mewing? He's not trying to expand men's fashion choices. He prefers women's fashion choices. His purse is a purse and he'd prefer one MORE feminine, not something I would be more comfortable with. At what point does he need to be more of a companion to me?
I don't care if he escapes but I do care if it's at the expense of our relationship.

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You tell 'em ConfusedandNotsoalone! Expand men's fashion choices???? Almost laughable! Wearing women's clothes, makeup and carrying a purse is anything but expanding men's fashions. In fact, it looks so bad it will do the opposite in my opinion. Why can't women be women and men be men with all the differences that most of us find sexy, attractive and very normal?
OH yeah, why can't us "normal" crossdressers be just that; Men who like to dress and act like what we love, admire, adore and yes...lust after. Most of us put on wigs, padding, makeup and whatever else needed to make ourselves look as much like a genuine female as possible. A very small minority wants to dress in skirts and dresses in public without trying to look like a genuine female. Personally, as a male and as a CD, I'm glad! To me, nothing looks so ridiculous.
I understand how those that do this gender bender dressing can in fact be a huge embarrassment to their wives. I can understand why GG's such as the OP are upset, and turned off by the whole thing and turned off to a very insensitive, selfish mate that puts his dressing needs or wants before the happiness and comfort level of his wife.

No Confusdedandalone, you DON"T have to "get with the program", your SO is the one that needs to get with the program!

Confusedandalone, you have every right to talk about your feelings here and I think that Dawn owes you an apology for using that term.

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

Expand men's fashion choices???? Almost laughable! Wearing women's clothes, makeup and carrying a purse is anything but expanding men's fashions.

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It is true that not every male who wears feminine clothing attempts to present as a woman. There are men who present as men but who like to wear either women's things, or a male version of what was previously considered female apparel (man-skirts, purses for men, heels for men, etc) and they do see it as redefining male fashion. And, well, they ARE redefining male fashion. Here are some examples:

http://scene.skirt.com/images/100119...lery/43053.jpg (skirt)
http://cakenotcoke.com/wp-content/up...c-in-skirt.jpg (skirt)
http://www.skortman.com/SleepSkirtPage1.htm (sleep-skirt)
http://thegloss.com/fashion/the-man-purse/ (purses)
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...EELS-popup.jpg (heels)
http://www.wikihow.com/Apply-Makeup-as-a-Man (make-up)

They're even on the runway:
http://www.theurbanapparel.com/blog/...ens-Skirt6.jpg
http://www.theurbanapparel.com/blog/...ns-Skirt12.jpg

There's no way that I'd define the men in these pictures as crossdressers the way that we, in this forum, have come to view them or at least picture them in our mind's eyes. Just look at the contrast between the pics above and the pics in the Gallery.

Granted, the reactions to these men might be mixed depending on how well they pull off the look. Some of these men might just be seen as gay if they don't pull it off well and it is apparent that they are wearing things that are designed for women, simply because most people aren't used to seeing men wear these things and also, traditionally, feminine men are associated with homosexuality. Also, if the skirt, top, purse, jewelry, scarves, etc are too feminine looking on a male that otherwise presents as a male, this will create a mismatch in most people's eyes and they'll be confused. But, some men do pull it off if the item worn is masculine looking enough and they are masculine looking too.

There's a fine line between redefining men's styles as above, and truly being a CDer who wants to present as a woman, but who feels who can't for various reasons and so he incorporates only a few feminine things. It's a question of motives.

But yes, there are men who do wish to break down the gender barriers and who wish to appropriate items of clothing that have traditionally been reserved for women, and who do not see themselves as crossdressers (the way that we undertand them here). If you think about it, women did the same thing, last century. We appropriated items of men's clothing, while not attempting to look like them, and so now we have redefined women's fashion to include pants. No one today outside of some of the CDers in this forum would say that a woman who wears pants is masculine. :D

This is why I was asking you earlier, Confusedandalone, how does your SO see himself, since according to your description he does not attempt to look feminine? If you could answer this, then maybe we can give you more meaningful advice.

Well, you've hit it on the head- he doesn't see himself as a CD the way most of you here would see it which in some ways makes this even more difficult. He would also like to see me play more the male role when we go out. I do point out to him that it only works if he doesn't keep walking in front of me to open the damn door! :)

Sigh.

I think I'm confused with his actions as you are to be honest.
Just not sure where he is coming from.Its not healthy to your relationship if he is pushing this thing too far.
I think he needs to step back and look at the big picture.
Blending genders as far as clothes goes has its limits IMO when you have a male/female relationship going.
Each needs to know the boundaries.

Compromise, Cross dressers involved with wives and girlfriends like any relationship have to compromise and find a middle ground that will ensure happiness to both parties, we tend to be selfish as males, it only gets worst when we find out female side and enjoy it to a point of caring only about ourselves. Communication and honesty will help you determine where you stand in your relationship, I wish you both the best.

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Originally Posted by Dawn cd

And lots of men carry bags today! Maybe it offends you because you, too, have accepted the common expectations of what men should look like.

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On planet earth? No. I travel the world, frequently and "men" are not carrying bags unless you include backpacks. Men don't carry bags because we have pockets and we don't need or use more than that which is in our pockets. You are falsely projecting your desires of what you want to be reality on to us men who live in reality.

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Originally Posted by Confusedandalone

Well, you've hit it on the head- he doesn't see himself as a CD the way most of you here would see it which in some ways makes this even more difficult. He would also like to see me play more the male role when we go out. I do point out to him that it only works if he doesn't keep walking in front of me to open the damn door! :)

Sigh.

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Ah! Well, that puts a whole other slant on your situation and you're right, it makes things more difficult to define, exactly. If he is using purses that look like the "man-bags" that I posted above, although they haven't taken off in North America, I think they are more common overseas among certain age groups. You also mentioned jewelry, tops, and shoes earlier. Is this the type of jewelry that is unmistakably feminine, or is it something that a guy would wear? As to the tops, are they frilly girlie tops or are they more androgynous looking, like polo shirts? And the shoes ... there are many shoes that are unisex (Teva sandals, or sneakers, for example). Does he wear unisex shoes?

In other words, do other people when looking at him raise their eyebrows in any way? If not ... if he is not wearing obviously feminine things, then people will not take him to be a crossdresser. This is just so hard to pin-point without pics. I wish you had a pic of what your husband wears. Anyway, if the items he wears are obviously feminine looking, then the two of you have to cope with people thinking that he is either gay or odd (depending on the circles you move in). He may be blissfully unaware of how he is viewed since most people keep their opinions to themselves, but it may matter to YOU. Is this what bothers you ... the idea that his style of dressing is unconventional? Or do you have any qualms about your husband looking too feminine or wanting to feel more feminine? Or both?

It would be so much easier to talk about this if there were pics, since you can well imagine there is such a wide spectrum to wearing any type of unconventional clothing. Also, what is unconventional in one area and age group might not be unconventional in another ... for example, living on the cutting edge in San Francisco vs. a small town in the midwest. :p

Edit
As to you playing a male role when you go out, don't do it unless you absolutely want to. He may want to be a gender-bender but he has no right to insist that you should be too, if you do not feel comfortable doing this. If you feel feminine, then by all means express your femininity as much as you want to. :)

I am cross dressed at home most of the time but when I go out of the house I am not dressed as female (as of now).

When I first got into this my fiance was/is fully supportive to the extreme. With that said she at the beginning said she still wanted to see me dressed as a guy. I think as someone else said it is a partnership and if this is what you want then he should be willing to do what makes you happy also. To me... It isn’t like you are asking him to give it up but just dress up sometimes as the way you find sexy for you. He should consider doing just for your benefit imho.

Yet I do understand him saying “This is male mode to me now”. My male mode actually still does consist of some female clothing simply because I find them more comfortable. I only wear female jeans for example (though you can’t really tell their different than mens jeans). I don’t wear mens underwear again simply because they aren’t as comfortable. What I sleep in is just pajamas to me, and I found them through cross dressing though they are still just pajamas to me. Nothing like nightgown, rather I actually sleep in comfy womens pants, leggings, something along those lines. To me I still find this “male mode” but I do see where you coming from. He might have something of same mind set you need to go over with him and tell him you don’t consider it male mode. If my fiance did I would understand because to me it’s still unisex but to her it may not be. Goes back to partnership thing.

There needs to be compromise in this on his end imho. If my fiance told me that she would like me to dress a certain way sometimes as pure male I would do so. She does after all support me fully in my cross dressing so it would equal out imho.

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Originally Posted by BRANDYJ

HARSH, insensitive, and comparing apples to oranges.



You tell 'em ConfusedandNotsoalone! Expand men's fashion choices???? Almost laughable! Wearing women's clothes, makeup and carrying a purse is anything but expanding men's fashions. In fact, it looks so bad it will do the opposite in my opinion. Why can't women be women and men be men with all the differences that most of us find sexy, attractive and very normal?
OH yeah, why can't us "normal" crossdressers be just that; Men who like to dress and act like what we love, admire, adore and yes...lust after. Most of us put on wigs, padding, makeup and whatever else needed to make ourselves look as much like a genuine female as possible. A very small minority wants to dress in skirts and dresses in public without trying to look like a genuine female. Personally, as a male and as a CD, I'm glad! To me, nothing looks so ridiculous.
I understand how those that do this gender bender dressing can in fact be a huge embarrassment to their wives. I can understand why GG's such as the OP are upset, and turned off by the whole thing and turned off to a very insensitive, selfish mate that puts his dressing needs or wants before the happiness and comfort level of his wife.

No Confusdedandalone, you DON"T have to "get with the program", your SO is the one that needs to get with the program!

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Yes, it looks as ridiculous as women wearing pants, or women wearing tattoos, or women wearing backpacks, or women wearing men's shoes, or women wearingmen's watches or any other men's fashion. "Get with the program of Gender Equality Regarding Fashion". Men's fashion is an oxymoron while women can choose from both sides of the store.

Reine,

It is important to understand that there is nothing wrong with a male attempting to look more feminine just as some women attempt to look more masculine. It is simply who they are and they get to a point where they are no longer comfortable living a lie.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

On planet earth? No. I travel the world, frequently and "men" are not carrying bags unless you include backpacks. Men don't carry bags because we have pockets and we don't need or use more than that which is in our pockets. You are falsely projecting your desires of what you want to be reality on to us men who live in reality.

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Then you have never been to Asia or Europe. Men carry messenger bags and other types of purses. There is nothing more unsightly than lumpy pockets from stuffing them full of junk. Not needing more that what is in your pockets is a very minimalistic/utilitarian masculine attitude. I'm surprised to hear this from a fellow crossdresser - Jenniferathome?

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

Then you have never been to Asia or Europe. Men carry messenger bags and other types of purses. There is nothing more unsightly than lumpy pockets from stuffing them full of junk. Not needing more that what is in your pockets is a very minimalistic/utilitarian masculine attitude. I'm surprised to hear this from a fellow crossdresser - Jenniferathome?

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If there was one thing in this world I wish I could be comfortable with using 24/7 out in public is a purse. I have to carry so much stuff there is no way I can't fit in my pockets and end up carrying most of it. I am bad about losing everything lol. Cell phone, keys, everything under the sun you can think of. Men carrying purses to me is just sense able. Just would make life easier lol.

Reine, et al,

Why can folks simply accept the concept of a JaneGirl which is the opposite of a TomBoy that we are all familiar with? There are women that are more masculine as are there men who are more feminine and they like to express that through fashion. Look at all of the drab garbage that is available in men's fashion! When a man gets married he can get dressed-up so that he looks exactly like the waiter that is serving his food and drink! Men have not had fashion since the 1700's. Men's fashion (oxymoron) is a joke that has been perpetuated by society for several hundred years that results in almost zero self expression. On the other hand, in women's magazines there are several articles every month about how to incorporate articles from the men's side of the store into a woman's wardrobe, however everyone crys foul if a man incorporates feminine items.

Double-standard?

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

Reine, et al,

Why can folks simply accept the concept of a JaneGirl which is the opposite of a TomBoy that we are all familiar with?

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Speaking for myself, I'm not saying he can or he can't be a JaneGirl. It's not my call. :p But throughout a bulk of this thread, people thought that Confusedandalone's SO was presenting in a way that it turns out he isn't (possibly ... C&A has not confirmed this yet). When the description is rather loose, people tend to substitute a mental image that they're familiar with, such as a classic gender-bender guy who is wearing bright pink stilettos, blingy girlie jewelry, feminine-looking purse, frilly tops, or whatever. But, the SO may in fact be wearing unisex shoes, a polo shirt that no one can tell was bought in a women's store, and a plain-looking, functional, unisex leather shoulder bag, which would change the picture tremendously.

This is why I am asking Confusedandalone so many questions. :p

I'm trying to determine how the SO is presenting, exactly, so that the advice given is more meaningful. Whether we like it or not, a man presenting in a flagrant gender-bender way will cause different reactions among people than someone who isn't. I am not placing a value judgment on anyone's choice of presentation. But, I do recognize that society in general looks askance (depending on their age group and where they live) at men who wear pink tutus in public, if I can use this as an extreme example to convey my meaning.

If you or anyone else wants to present as a Janegirl (wearing things that are beyond what most people would associate with males), be my guest! lol. But unfortunately, the reality is that if you go to a job interview dressed like that you likely won't get the job. And if C&A's SO does dress like this, then C&A has something to say on the matter since it impacts both their lives. But, if the SO dresses in a way that doesn't raise most people's eyebrows (if no one has a clue that he is wearing the polo top bought as a women's department store, for example), then maybe C&A needs to stop seeing it as CDing for her own sanity, since there is no potential negative impact.

Really, this could be a case similar to a young couple, for example Spouse A who likes to wear rather flamboyant goth clothes with long, died black hair, long dark fingernails, all black clothes, and spiked collar to Spouse B's rather conservative office party, and Spouse B asking Spouse A to tone it down somewhat. This example really has nothing to do with gender. But, if Spouse B goes into a CDer forum and describes Spouse A wearing long hair, fingernails, and jewelry, the membership will take it as CDing when it isn't. If this makes sense.

But until C&A tells us how feminine her husband is dressing exactly, we just don't know.

Reine I'm wondering all the things you are I just don't have enough info in just how he presents in public.
She can't post a pic because I'm assuming he is not a member here.
I applaud her for coming here and asking questions in hopes of finding and understanding what is going on with him.

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Originally Posted by Confusedandalone

I've never said it offended me, but your characterization certainly does. Mewing? He's not trying to expand men's fashion choices. He prefers women's fashion choices. His purse is a purse and he'd prefer one MORE feminine, not something I would be more comfortable with. At what point does he need to be more of a companion to me?

I don't care if he escapes but I do care if it's at the expense of our relationship.

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Don't discount the possibility of working through all of this with a professional counselor. It is often helpful to have a third party in the room to keep things from getting out of hand. If the discussion does get out of hand, sometimes it is hard to find your way back by yourself.