Passing - A New Perspective

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

Of those of you who's ambition is to "pass", how many of you are 6'3" or more? What's a tall girl to do in your world of "passing"? Can I pass? Probably not, but I do my best to present myself as a classy old broad with confidence and grace. Oh would I love to be 5'10" and skinny.

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I have met GGs that tall or taller. Hell, the other day at the grocery store I saw one as tall as me (6'1"). So it's not outside the realm of female heights. I suspect, but don't know for a fact, that my large belly will help more than hurt, because it helps round out my proportions. And as to small hips and butt, well, I've seen soooo many GGs with those same traits.

As I said, I haven't even tried to pass yet, but the more I read other people's stories and look around me out in public, the more I think it has to be easier than we think it is. Is it possible that our biggest obstacle is ourselves?

Acceptance for my expression of my feminine side is what I would like. I do all that I can to look presentable, and to do it with class. Unfortunately the world we live in is not very accepting of our lifestyle, or passion if you will. As long as I'm treated with the dignity I deserve, whether I'm perceived as a female or a guy in feminine attire, then I've accomplished my goal, and I'm a happy person.

I've learned that there are multiple levels of passing. There are some who nearly no one would spot, and who look better than most of the women out there, but those are the clear exception.

I settle for a second level: I don't have to convince them I'm a woman, but I plant enough doubt that they're not convinced I'm a guy. I think I do this reasonably well most of the time. I'm quite conscious of the signals that might interfere with this impression, with my wife's help, and address each of them.

Of course, there are degrees to each of these, and one might attach a probability of detection. But even then, so what! If you stick to situations where a detection lead to no lingering negative consequences to family, job, or friends, then there's still no problem. A little good judgment goes a long way.

Miriam

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Originally Posted by MysticLady

All I want is your Respect and Honor. Because that is what I'm giving you...

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I like how you put that, Victoria.

Striving to be respectful, as feminine as I can be, and as comfortable, confident in myself as I can.

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Originally Posted by Lynn Marie

Of those of you who's ambition is to "pass", how many of you are 6'3" or more? What's a tall girl to do in your world of "passing"? Can I pass? Probably not, but I do my best to present myself as a classy old broad with confidence and grace. Oh would I love to be 5'10" and skinny.

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This pretty much covers it for me as well. I'm ultimately a realist. I don't want to be read but I'm far from average dimensions. But I don't go out to fool or please anyone else. I go out to be myself and enjoy the company of others.

If I defined passing as being treated as any other gg in a similar situation, then I pass almost all the time. Being mistaken for a gg only happens occasionally, usually by guys on drugs, or very old people.

Mostly its just respect and to feel safe. I guess, if you asked, would I do it if it was 110% okay with everyone?...sure. But, there is passing and doing that is a challenge. I know that I passed for sure only a couple times and you know when it happens....its when you do something 'male' and the people around you correct you as they would a female. Like when you walk towards the men's room and other woman laugh and tell you that you almost went in the 'men's' by mistake! I actually can only count a few negative reactions when I didn't pass and was not accepted and all the other times... either accepted or passed, hard to know what's what.

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Originally Posted by PaulaPenny

Personally what I'm looking for is just to be accepted as myself, another person in this world. Whether someone sees me as female, a male in a dress, or whatever it doesn't really matter to me since my goal is to be me, a person that some people will like/accept and that some will dislike/not accept. This really isn't any different than what everyone goes thru every day we just are a little different than what most people are use to.

Since my goal is be me and to be true to myself I can say that I pass, because of what I'm trying to do. I'm not worrying about what others think of me, I'm worried about living my life the way I want to, and isn't that what we all really want.

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I really like the way the above is worded here, is very much my own personal outlook on the subject. Just as everyone else here has, I have struggled trying to figure out what dressing is to me, and what I want from it. I was always very confused as I could never relate to the idea of trying to be a women - speaking, mannerisms and generally acting like a women. This has never appealed to me, and has been a huge source of anguish over the years. In recent years, I have come to the conclusion I just like to "look" like a female - and being 6'4" and being heavy set this can be quite a task. I do not "pass" as a women, nor do I intend to or want to. I have only been out and about a handful of times, but all I want is to be treated with respect. If someone chooses to treat me as a women so be it, if as a male in a dress then cool - after all I am a guy. I know this is not how most want to be treated and or think, but its how I feel about it. I think if you show confidence you can show people how you want to be treated, and most people will pick up on this. Just my two cents :)

I inadvertently swatted the "passing beehive" in an earlier thread. ;)

Here's my take on passing. I tend to use the term as it's used when referring to ones performance on a test. Did you pass the test of blending in with society as a female when you went out? You can still pass a test even if you didn't get a 100% A+ grade so it's not a pass/fail, true/false, black/white, 0/1 situation. In other words, you can pass subjects A, B, C, and D but not subject E. In that case, you passed overall with an 80%. When we as CDers speak of passing, we're usually referring to our own perception of how well we did on the "society blending test" since we're not playing John Quiñones and interviewing each subject we came in contact with to get their answer of whether they thought we were a male or female. If one is going to claim no one passes, then they need to provide the answers of each contact who saw, heard, or interacted with the person trying to pass. If they're not going to provide that then how can they make the claim? And some feel that passing is an unattainable and futile goal or even worthless because to them it doesn't matter how society views them. That's their opinion and their desire. Don't chastise those who feel the need to pass simply because you don't share the same desire.

I don't have a femme voice so I always take the "visual" version of the test. Some could pass only audibly (phone or to a blind person). While others could pass both. But even those levels of passing will vary according to each contact, geographic location, time of year, time of day, venue, etc. It's all a matter of perception to all involved. How many have seen a GG and thought, "is that a guy?" In those cases, your perception of a GG was skewed because of something. My point is, we all see the world differently.

When I stated in one of my posts that I felt I passed 98% of the time, one would have thought I was calling everyone on the forum ugly old men in dresses and that I was claiming to be more beautiful than some GGs! That's the furthest from what I meant. All I was trying to convey was that most of the time when I go out, I don't perceive to have been read, clocked, or whatever the "proper" term is. It is MY perception of how well I did on the test because I don't go back and interview every single person who saw me. Does that mean 98% of the time when I go out 100% of those who see me think I'm a woman? Nope! Does that mean every time I go out 98% of those who see me think I'm a woman? Again, no! It simply means most of the time when I go out, I perceive to have passed the visual portion of the test. Whether others actually thought I was a woman, I have no idea. Maybe some knew I was a guy and didn't care. Maybe some didn't know. Why some on this forum get so hung up on the fact that others claim they pass is beyond me. I found out quickly on this forum that some people are very sensitive when it comes to the topic of passing. And if you claim to pass, you may be thought to have vain and arrogant qualities. Give me a break! I am the LAST person who would feel that way. Sorry for the rant. I had to get that off my shaved chest. :)

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Originally Posted by PaulaPenny

All this leads me to ask, what is it that we want when we go out in public? Do we want to be seen as females, a male in a dress, or just as another person. Maybe we all need to look inside ourselves to see what it is we're really trying to accomplish.

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This does require rigorous honesty! :D

I can respond for my SO. For years, she wanted to pass and she was mortified if even a glue on nail popped off her little finger. If this happened she felt as if her male self was radiating from that spot, and everyone would think that she was a guy in a dress. During those years, she barely spoke while out and about, except for a very few words uttered when she was ordering something to eat or drink. She was panicked at the thought that people might read her.

But, after multiple (hundreds) outings, she became more at ease with herself and she began talking with more and more people. She then realized that they knew that she was not a genetic female. So she had to re-evaluate her goals. Did she want to be perceived as a female or was it OK to just be herself. She decided that it was OK to just be herself, since she didn't want to begin the process of transition.

Like you, she (and I) have no clue how these people are classifying my SO. They could be thinking that she is TS, or a crossdresser, or gender fluid, or a man in a dress, or an odd, quirky person, or some people might think that she is a transvestic fetishist. But it's likely that they classify my SO based on their own very limited knowledge of non hetero-normative people.

The idea that most CDers "pass" I'm afraid is wishful thinking. If this were true, TSs (who are genetic males just like CDers) would not be taking hormones and getting facial feminization surgery.

Evening Gurls

My perspective is like most - to just look like a respectable lady and not frighten anyone. Don't go out too often and then only to meetings of the local CDers group. Last year I had a fright when, just as I was going into the hotel to the meeting, a van drew up beside me and asked for directions to somewhere. I had no option but to reply - trapped! The 20-something year old girl didn't seem too phased when I replied with an obviously male voice so I obviously passed the decency test!

x Polly

First, I think the OP is a really good post -- a good outlook expressed well. Personally, I generally want people to know I'm transgender, a femme guy. After all, that is what I am, and I like people interacting with me on that basis. But I'm not delusional, I know full well that puts me on the fringe of mainstream society at this point in time. Heck, it puts me on the fringe of the LG culture too, although I have less to fear from gays than straights. My heart's desire is to be able to mingle and function in society as a femme guy without stigma or limits, and perhaps that day will come, although probably not in my lifetime. In the meantime, I go and do what I can, where I can, when I can, thankful for chances to be lil' ol' me.

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Originally Posted by linda allen

...in the cold cruel world, you will have a hard time finding acceptance as a crossdresser. It's a shame, but it's reality and you need to understand that or you will be hurt...

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From an emotional standpoint, being hurt by others is a choice that we make for ourselves. Strangers and others you do not hold dear to your heart cannot hurt your feelings if you make the choice not to be receptive of that sort of negativity. ;)

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Originally Posted by dawn03

For me, it's about looking as pretty and as female as possible. If/when I do get read, I would like the reader to think "not bad for a guy" rather than "ugh, he looks ridiculous!"

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Hi Dawn - I think this is a *great* way to put this! Thanks for the insight, which I'm going to incorporate into my thinking.

Dressing is how I express my feminine self. I have no illusions that I pass and I don't really care. I do want people to play along with the illusion and think "wow, s/he really knows how to do makeup"!

I'm curious about this as we women don't usually seek validation that we look feminine etc - we just are. It's innate. So if you're 'feeling' feminine why does it matter what people see?

Hi,

I wrote this on another forum. hope you like it,

What makes the woman , the clothes , no, its the woman that brings the clothes alive, some of us can do justus to them & some of us just wear them , & we all have our own beauty , just some of us cant bring those clothes to life,

I can only wear the clothes , just not bring them to life, its that simple for myself , the talk is about passing like a woman or being seen as one many here can & as iv said many times you look far more applys more to you , feminine far more lovely looking......... oh dear hate this, so , my beauty comes in other ways, from with in ...not from the out side in looks any way. not all of us female / women have the outer beauty, does not say we are not women,

Missus . You are right, we dont have to seek or look for validation . yet some times i have had to because of my birth difference, not every woman will be accepting of myself most do of cause,

Im just trying to get my head around = seek validation that we look feminine - we just are, ,its innate .hmmm okay,,, sort of,

now this part, if your feeling feminine ,...... iv never ever felt feminine, no matter what. all ill say is one lovely woman told me at our Renaissance camp last Dec -Jan a week , she thought going back 3 years, of seeing me i was takeing on the personer of a woman in our reinactment of Renaissance times as a woman ,dressing as looking as close as,

she then spent over an hour talking with me & told me this & said your not doing that you are infact a female who is a woman. this was all so told before our group of 230 members, & they anounced it that my statis is a lady ./ woman.

I had no idear when i went up front of our group for the sytation i was somewhat shocked & thought , ooops what have i done.....oh dear im done for,

They have accepted im just a normal woman .

I know im female yes, born a bit wrong , yes, & the mirror it says you dont look female who you trying to kid, have you fooled all those who know you,

You wont to hang your... head ....in shame & hide. so you see why i have a struggle with feminine & looking well just not quite right,


My advantage is in being accepted in the womens ranks, so im covered .where i lack they make up for me, fact is they really do. i must say even some of my lovely male friends do as well.

...noeleena...

I pass 100% of the time as human. Beyond that it's a crapshoot. The problem is not, as has been mentioned very nicely in other posts, if others recognize me as a guy dressed as a woman, but if I'm able to be comfortable and accept the situation I've inserted myself into. This is a consious choice we make when we crossdress and venture out in public places. The chance of successfully convincing everyone you see that you are indeed a woman is very small. However, the chance that they won't react in a negative fashion and allow you to pass along without a confrontation is reasonable. Under any kind of scrutiny I will not be mistaken for a woman. But if I do a very good job in my presentation, I may not attract attention and be ignored by those I don't want to interact with. My goal is to enjoy myself when I'm crossdressed someplace other than inside my house. And by enjoy I mean that I want to be able to forget that I'm doing something others consider odd and just go about my business. If somehow I'm given the honor of being called by a feminine pronoun, that's just gravy on my biscuits and I'll lap it up and smile. If I'm referred to as "sir", I'll remember that I set myself up for this and move along to my next encounter. So there it is, passing is measured by my perception of the experience, regardless of how others respond.

In reading through these comments, I think the issue is less about passing and more about being accepted as the person that you feel you are. If you feel you are a girl/woman on the inside, then you are striving for acceptance in that role. Same goes for the guy in a dress. Perhaps another way to put it is that you want the rest of the world to be most comfortable with you in the same way that you feel most comfortable. Isn't that what every human being wants?