An open letter to "A"...Thanks for outing me :(

Tough call as to whether he should have approached you. If you were read by him, he may have just been trying to provide information. I would suspect he was also a cross dresser, and, knew how difficult it was to find a man of a similar mind set. I think the perception of him being rude is not justified. It seems since there is always some self doubt in the vast majority of cross dressers, the vast majority may not want to be approached. Years ago (no decades ago) my wife told me it was OK for me to seek out and attend a support group. I called the telephone "hot line" of a group in Seattle. I was treated so rude and disrespectful that the only thing I could think of was these people better never volunteer for a suicide hot line.

Would I approach another cross dresser? I don't go out en femme because I'm zero percent passable. Should I go up to a tastefully attired and very presentable and passable cross dresser and ask if s/he knows of a support group? Nope, too much baggage in most of us.

When I am wearing a baseball cap with my military unit patch on it, you bet I approach them and strike up a conversation. I view that military patch as an advertisement to stop and talk" what unit, when served, welcome home, etc. Should I run up and ask a woman where she bought her pretty dress because I would want one for myself?

Frankly, we are never able to ascertain a person's zone of personal space. It's tough to make a judgement.

Hey, if my lovely wife did not take the initiative and swim up to me in a public pool forty plus years ago, I would never had married her shortly thereafter.

what she lacked in tact she made up in exuberance. You would not walk up to someone you don't know and say "hey we have a group meeting for people 5'7" high with blonde hair...come on down" reminds of the people who knock on my door and try and convert me from pagan....

It is refreshing to get a different perspective from one of the "I saw a sister out in public threads" that have been quite prevalent here. The original poster seemed poised and in her element while she was going about her day. Call me cynical, but I can't help but feel that anyone who approaches someone, who is minding their own business, to point out the fact that they "know" as nothing more than self serving.

Sure, intentions may have been good, as others here have already mentioned. Yet, that doesn't take away from the fact that a virtual stranger in male mode is trying to make a connection to a "like minded" individual, who is a stranger herself. There are plenty of support groups out there for those who feel the need to introduce themselves.

Phrased differently, I'm open to a thread of this nature where one of these chance encounters turned positive.

Thanks for replying, Sara. I agree with your original post. I wouldn't like to be contacted, and certainly wouldn't contact anyone, even if the encounter happened whilst both were en femme. Guess some people have the need to "reach out".

Her approach was clumsy, but IMO what she was really saying was, "you look nice and I'd like to know you better. Maybe we could do it at the LGBT meeting."

Saying hello is not rude, but I think what she is saying that it took a lot to get to the point to go out dressed. Unless I was ready to interact I would be uncomfortable with it. Perhaps if she talked about other things the interaction could of went better. Some people's level of their acceptance is not the same as others. Also if you are going out a woman you have to be prepare to interact too. I still find how Sara describe the interaction as being rude, but she should expect to interact with people when you go out in public.

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What if I were a year into transition, trying to live my life every day with the fewest possible amount of reminders that I'm anything but a woman?

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When I was a year into my transition an encounter like that would have been the least of my worries. I had much bigger issues then get upset at someone trying to be friendly and helpful.

In all honesty, it saddens me that quite a few people here view the actions of "A" so negatively. In this particular occurrence (as described by Sara), no harm was done, good will was intended, and the actions of "A" were dealt with by Sara appropriately and politely, and no offence was caused. Any possible negativity that could have happened falls into the category of "what if" as opposed to the category of "what actually happened".

My opinion, and this may sound somewhat harsh, even insensitive, is that the reality is that the vast majority of us, when out "presenting ourselves as female" will be read. We WILL be identified, whether we like it or not. The vast majority of us will look, to others, as a man in women's clothing. And this raises a very important question in my opinion. That is, what is it that we, as trans people want? Do we want to be regarded as women, that is, not be read? Or do we want to be respected and accepted as trans people? If the former, then the sad reality is that that "want" will never be attainable for many of us. If the latter, then the optimistic reality is that it is possible for that "want" to be achievable for us all.

So say your out and about, and a person, be it male, female, of even trans themselves, approaches you with the best of intent in order to strike up a conversation, or to be positive in what they say, then I personally do not see what the problem is. But clearly others (as quite a few replies in this thread testify), do have a problem with such a scenario occurring. Yes, of course we all want to go about our business and not feel threatened, hassled, or maybe just singled out, but the sad reality is that not being singled out (at least) is highly unlikely. The "sad" reality is that most of us will be identified as a "man in dress", whether we like it or not, and whether it's said to our face or behind our back, it will be the case. Which leaves us with the other possibility - that of us being accepted AS a trans person, and not being negatively judged BECAUSE we are a trans person. And for that to happen, it will take many of us, to go out, to be seen in public, to be recognised in public, for what we actually are, to the extent that our "place" within society is no longer regarded as falling "outside" of the norm.

Am I safe in assuming that the one thing all of us want is to be accepted within society. To feel as though we can be ourselves without being judged negatively, or even better, without fear of prejudice? That we can live our lives without fear of any kind. That we can be accepted and respected for who we are? Isn't that the ideal here? Or have I got that wrong? It seems to me, based on a few replies to this thread, that some of us are losing sight of that. And the ironic thing is, quite a few here are themselves judging a person ("A") in a negative light just because they had the gall, or confidence, to go up to another person with the intent to strike up a conversation that, based on what Sara herself said, wasn't at all offensive, but certainly could be viewed as supportive and accepting and above all else, non-judgemental. Or to put this another way, it is US HERE in our little BUBBLE who are being judgemental of others. And that is simply never a good thing, especially so when we don't want others to be judgemental towards ourselves.

So "A" went up to Sara, while Sara was in a public place. Thus meaning that Sara was "read". Sara herself says that when she is out in public, she expects to be read, and expecting this makes her life, in her words, easier. Sara's objection therefore, which she makes quite clear, does not relate to herself and her own reaction to this particular experience, but how she herself perceives others may react should it happen to them. And that is, it seems, what quite a few posters here have picked up on. Resulting in them being negative towards "A". Again, this saddens me. And it saddens me most of all in the sense that a mountain is being made out of a mole-hill. "A" never said anything negative. On the contrary, "A" was supportive, and "A" was honest, and "A" was accepting. Yet "A" is being slated for that. "A" is being judged negatively. Well I'm sorry to say, but when we view people such as "A" in such a way, then WE will never be accepted, and all we'll achieve is to push people away from us. And that is the last thing we need to do.

What about something as simple as "Hello" and letting the other person engage as much as they choose. Just my 2 cents. But then again I talk to anyone (although I do not venture out en femme)

Very well stated Jenni. I totally agree with you. We look for acceptance, then receive acceptance, and then complain about it. As much as Sara has been out and as far along as she is in accepting and learning to live with her personal situation internally and with her family and the rest of the world, I would not ever have expected to read this thread to start with. Now, if that person was a stalker, or literally out one of us while in male mode to others, that is a totally different situation. If someone sees me while out dressed, please come over and introduce yourself. I intrude on so many other people's lives with such great results for both them and me, I would welcome the intrusion and subsequent conversation.

It's true. A simple smile or casual hello would have been more than sufficient.

Trying to 2nd guess what was in A's mind is silly and pointless!

There was only one way to find out. Sara needed to ask what A was thinking in approaching her! I certainly wouldn't have been composed enuff to do that!

People will always have different views about how to approach a TG person. We're the most secret society in existence!

Of course, the safest route is to avoid mentioning it at all and that is what I do.

I wonder what "A" would have said if you had responded "Why would I care about a transgender support group?"

I disagree with the majority here, and the OP.

I don’t think you were outed. He didn’t yell out, “There’s a tranny in VS.”

You were made, or clocked or whatever word you want to use. The only difference is that the person that made you didn’t snicker, didn’t elbow his friends, or anything like that. He basically said hello. Now, maybe he could have been more tactful about it, but I don’t see that any harm was intended.

Think about this scenario.

I walk into my favorite local restaurant, which is very busy tonight. There are a lot of people waiting to get tables. I see a guy wearing a Boston Red Sox baseball cap. I walk up to him and say, “It looks like you’re a Red Sox fan. How about those Red Sox this year. I never thought they’d be doing so well with a bunch of no-name players, especially after the season they had last year. You know, there’s a Meetup group that meets at Glory Days every couple of weeks to watch the game together. And sometimes we get a bunch of people to go up to Camden Yards when the Red Sox are in town. I can provide you the web site if you're interested."

Are you offended because I came up to you while you are minding your own business? Should you be?

I think not. Why can’t we all work to de-stigmatize crossdressing

I'm not sure I could state it any better than Jenni_xx or AllieSF. When I go out I try to be as real as I can be, but I know that most of the time I won't pass 100%,especially face to face. I don't let it bother me any tho. After all, I am in public. When you go out your door into the world you have to be prepared for any situation that might arise. You never know what will happen. In some ways I like to be read. I'm not trying to "fool" anyone. I have the mindset that everyone knows exactly what I am and I want them to be appreciative of my efforts and not seem as if I'm trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Anyway...... when I am in public I welcome interaction with others. I want to make them feel comfortable. I want to give them a positive view of our community and hopefully dispel any negative opinions they might have, one Muggle at a time. If you see ME out, feel free to say hello! I won't bite. If I see another gurl out somewhere tho, I think I may open with a compliment and see what the reaction is. If she's comfortable I may go from there. If not and she seems nervous or unsure of herself, I will politely excuse myself. I realize that everyone has different comfort levels, but as a whole we need to be more open. GET OUT THERE AND SHOW THE WORLD WE BELONG!

The only time I've even said anything to a sister was when a young, high school age, kid ran head on into me in a mall. He looked like a deer in headlights. I just said relax your fine and went on.

My mother used to use this expression, "birds of a feather, flock together". Birds have no problem telling there kind from the other birds. I think that we can see the "tells" of our "tribe" by our own experiences. I have seen others dressed up in public, but I would never disrupt that persons time by being rude. All I have ever done is smile and keep walking.

I don't see any harm intended by A, but I get your point, you were trying to blend in, enjoy a private moment, and just be left alone. It really was a breach of etiquette, but maybe A didn't know the rulesSometimes you have to se the good intentions, as hard as it is.

Wow, that's different.
I'm glad you were polite - not sure I would have been..

I recently had a similar experience. In this case, I was the only person on the Hertz bus, and the driver had taken good care of me, and then asked if I hung out at "Sisters", which is some club in Chicago area. I didn't even know what he was talking about, and he told me it was a transgender club. So much for passing (I had been unnoticed, blending in well enough in DIA and Midway, as well as my hotel and restaurants without even being noticed. But then again, I'm trying to transition, so I've been getting a LOT of practice.

As I walked away, I thought "Well, so much for passing". I know that my ID, Credit Card, and driver's license blow my cover, but the service personnel are always good about using the feminine pronoun to address me. I'm always pleased when the TSA security does the rubber-neck when he realizes that the male ID and the female he think he is looking at - are the same person. Fortunately, I have a new license and they match the picture quickly, but are startled at the name and male designation.

Once I start working as Debbie, I'll have to change my name legally, and thanks to new federal policies, could change my gender marker as well.

I realized that the bus driver was trying to be helpful, and since he was used to seeing transgenders and drag queens, he knew what to look for in terms of gestures and mannerisms that others might not have picked up.


Enjoying the journey.

Question. While I do see how "A" is actually doing harm, what if the she was seeking advice? I've been in "A's" situation before. While I was in drab while shopping for Carmen, I noticed the sales person at the department store was like me. I needed/wanted (and still do) help and advice. I approached her just like "A" did and told her I was like her. She then proceeded to help me out! She took me into the back (away from the public) and helped me find my women's shoe size! She gave me great advice and I owe her a lot!

Now I understand "A" was trying to be "helpful" but is it acceptable for someone like me (who is not 100% comfortable with themselves) to seek advice from someone who is much more experienced? Especially when it's hard as it is to meet people IRL who are just like yourself??

Sorry for the long post, it's something that I've always thought of.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

He was presenting as a guy. And there was no self-disclosure on his part so I couldn't say whether he is "T" or not.

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Yeah, this would be creepy in my book. If he was en femme, it would be a different feeling altogether.

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Originally Posted by Princess Grandpa

For what it's worth, I don't see that you have been so hard on A.

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Yes, Rita, I agree, if he's truly a CD. But, there's some freaky people out there, you know.:drooling:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

reminds of the people who knock on my door and try and convert me from pagan....

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We need too talk, join us in the Religious Forum:)

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Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs

My mother used to use this expression, "birds of a feather, flock together".

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Very true Gillian. I like that. We are sisters and we need to feel comfortable outside just we are here on the Forums.

Darn people and their engaged transradar systems, sure gives a blow to the detected person's passability ego.....

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Originally Posted by carmenraquette

Question. While I do see how "A" is actually doing harm, what if the she was seeking advice? I've been in "A's" situation before. While I was in drab while shopping for Carmen, I noticed the sales person at the department store was like me. I needed/wanted (and still do) help and advice. I approached her just like "A" did and told her I was like her. She then proceeded to help me out! She took me into the back (away from the public) and helped me find my women's shoe size! She gave me great advice and I owe her a lot!

Now I understand "A" was trying to be "helpful" but is it acceptable for someone like me (who is not 100% comfortable with themselves) to seek advice from someone who is much more experienced? Especially when it's hard as it is to meet people IRL who are just like yourself??

Sorry for the long post, it's something that I've always thought of.

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Carmen, in general it is more polite to let sleeping dogs lay as they are and not bother them. That being said, I see no reason if one has the opportunity to chat with someone, to make some innocent comment about the crowded store, lack of clothing choices in the clothing store or the over abundance of clothing that is making the decision process more difficult because of too many options. Whatever that would be respectful in a conversation and does not touch on anyone's "T" ness. I would not say that I am a sister nor comment on how well one passes or blends in. Talk to them just as if they were a casual woman shopper. If your or her "T" status comes up, let it be naturally as part of the total conversation and not like the prime reason you are talking with them. I also think that one needs to be quick on their feet so to speak so that they can easily diffuse and awkward situation if one arises.

My comments further above in this thread are based on the fact that most of us, and definitely including me, do not totally pass and we have too many male features to expect that we will pass. Therefore, if we go out enough, we should have thick enough skin and experience to let this type of situation easily pass with no offense taken when no offense was obviously meant by "A". Again, if someone is obnoxious or trying to negatively out us publicly, that totally changes the situation justifying other reactions.

Interesting thread...best to leave people alone and not mention 'support' groups, etc. People don't announce AA meeting times at bars, nor should they announce TG support meetings at VS...to someone he or she suspects might be trans.....;)