"Like a woman"

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

So it's more 'natural' for the female to make herself available when the male is ready for intercourse. Does that help?

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Nope, I get that those are attitudes people mention, but they don't make any sense to me. Also, what you're saying is boils sex down to only one act putting a penis in... But that is not the full encompassment of sex, it's just the part that gets the most media coverage. Also, one of our cultures stereotypes is that men are *always* ready, and if he's not the whisper of a breeze or a glimpse of a boob will make it so. It's not true but if that is there feeding into the idea that women should be ready when he's ready it doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

I'll ask a reverse question though.
Are women brought up to be the submissive partners?

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It is absolutely complex, I'm just surprised at so many saying "this is my experience" or "this is my perception of the experience" of being "the women." I wonder if for some people crossing gender lines is in part connected with being submissive and not being able to assimilate that with the maleness.

Good question, women are absolutely brought up to be the submissive partners. But the women I know have not lived it in the extreme that I see talked about here. The women I know have it whispering in their heads and muddling things when they feel dominant, or when they need to stand up for themselves in relationships. But it's an influence...not a desire they aspire to, at least not usually, there are of course some GGs who are absolutely comfortable in the most traditional stereotypes of women but they are as rare as GM who are absolutely comfortable in the extreme stereotype of masculinity put forth by our culture. Does that make sense?

So I see that women get and even struggle with this message, and what I perceive is that many on this forum do not understand the complexity of these messages for women. They assume that woman = submissive is "natural" or what women want. But that's not a real view of real people, that's accepting a stereotype at shallow face value.

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Originally Posted by Oddlee

I would say "people" deserve respect, and should get a lot more than they do.

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I would say you are absolutely right.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Women and men view the world differently and that shapes how men interact with women, and also how women interact with women. The complexity here is that to be interacted with as a woman it is best to give off the mental as well as physical cues of the feminine being we wish to perfect. The more we project femininity the more others will fall into the framework of treating us as GG.

Unfortunately, human interaction is not always positive, so like any GG we need to learn how to compliment tol the good and deal with the bad.Tina is not submissive. Tina expects respective behavior but that doesn't have to be classic gentlemanly behavior. With woman it's terrific to have everyone just act and talk so that Tina is just one of the girls, as cmplex as that is:)

While there is certainly validity to the argument those who dress are submissive because they believe women should be submissive, I think to be fair, on the flip side... most desire a dominant GG to be submissive to.

For what it is worth, being a man in this society isn't so great either. Men are still waiting for the same advances in equality women gained many years ago.

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Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants

Nope, I get that those are attitudes people mention, but they don't make any sense to me. Also, what you're saying is boils sex down to only one act putting a penis in... But that is not the full encompassment of sex, it's just the part that gets the most media coverage. Also, one of our cultures stereotypes is that men are *always* ready, and if he's not the whisper of a breeze or a glimpse of a boob will make it so. It's not true but if that is there feeding into the idea that women should be ready when he's ready it doesn't make a lot of sense.

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These attitudes don't make sense to me, and in practice, well, let's just say I've never propositioned a woman for sex. It's always been the other way around, and I kinda like it that way. (Not necessarily in relationships, mind you, because there's a lot of what-she-wants and what-he-wants and so forth)

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Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants

Good question, women are absolutely brought up to be the submissive partners. But the women I know have not lived it in the extreme that I see talked about here. The women I know have it whispering in their heads and muddling things when they feel dominant, or when they need to stand up for themselves in relationships. But it's an influence...not a desire they aspire to, at least not usually, there are of course some GGs who are absolutely comfortable in the most traditional stereotypes of women but they are as rare as GM who are absolutely comfortable in the extreme stereotype of masculinity put forth by our culture. Does that make sense?

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Now, this is interesting. My wife can be quite aggressive when she wants sex, but she describes herself as "more of a sub". I'm wondering if she self-identifies that way as a result of conditioning, says it because she wants me to like her and has been trained to believe that's what I want to hear, or if she really is wired that way. I'll bring this up with her, it'll no doubt be an interesting discussion. In terms of how she behaves in bed, she really comes off to me as being an egalitarian, and one of the things she was concerned about when I came out to her was that I was going to turn into this submissive crossdressing person. (It only took a night in a dress with a rope to cure that concern of hers :) )

To me:

being treated like a woman

means being dressed as a woman and being with a guy who treats me like a female - in every way.



First, I am interested in what people mean by that in a social way.

Second, there is an undercurrent I perceive here and on another site quite often that being treated "like a woman" includes being treated as the submissive partner in the bedroom. I'm not asking for any sexual details, you all know what's allowed on this forum better than I do so please follow that. I'm asking about the dynamics and attitudes not the behaviors and details.

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

Truthfully, I'm a male and would prefer to treated the same way dressed that I would be treated while as a guy

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Originally Posted by Emma500

Second, there is an undercurrent I perceive here and on another site quite often that being treated "like a woman" includes being treated as the submissive partner in the bedroom. I'm not asking for any sexual details, you all know what's allowed on this forum better than I do so please follow that. I'm asking about the dynamics and attitudes not the behaviors and details.

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

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I think it could depend on where you fall on the TG spectrum.
If you grow up as a man it's heavily enforced that you should be the dominant partner but this may get a bit skewed if you're not interested or have negative feelings towards your parts.

Instead of dominant and submissive you could always go with top and bottom, I mean, you'd have to be okay with the gay but that's a bit less discriminatory and assumes both partners are equals.

Personally I'm not wired to be a top, I just wouldn't know how nor do I have any interest in learning but like everything else it could change.
I just don't feel comfortable with the idea, of course it may have nothing to do with being trans and I was just going to be a bottom regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation.

Take that with a grain of salt though since I've not been with either, it's all just theory to me at this point.
An interesting one though :) but it certainly helps me open up and explore more by discussion.

I definitely prefer "top" and "bottom" words, even in a heterosexual relationship. My wife's definitely a bottom. And I'm definitely a top. And removing the dom/sub definitions gives us more flexibility in describing ourselves as sex partners.

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

I think it could depend on where you fall on the TG spectrum.
If you grow up as a man it's heavily enforced that you should be the dominant partner but this may get a bit skewed if you're not interested or have negative feelings towards your parts.

Instead of dominant and submissive you could always go with top and bottom, I mean, you'd have to be okay with the gay but that's a bit less discriminatory and assumes both partners are equals.

Personally I'm not wired to be a top, I just wouldn't know how nor do I have any interest in learning but like everything else it could change.
I just don't feel comfortable with the idea, of course it may have nothing to do with being trans and I was just going to be a bottom regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation.

Take that with a grain of salt though since I've not been with either, it's all just theory to me at this point.
An interesting one though :) but it certainly helps me open up and explore more by discussion.

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I'm sure where you fall affects your perspective on quite a bit about gender roles.

The thing is, that top and dominant don't mean the same thing. Same with bottom and submissive. It is the point of dominance and submission that it not be egalitarian.

My theory is that gender, sexual orientation and dom/sub are all separate dices thrown in how we are wired. Of course they have to be those fancy dices with lots of numbers because all of those are continuums. So I think if you are wired to be a bottom, or a top or dominant or submissive then that is how you are wired separately from the other dice.

It's going to be so fun to find out what you think of all this once you get to the test drive part of your life(o:

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Originally Posted by Leona

I definitely prefer "top" and "bottom" words, even in a heterosexual relationship. My wife's definitely a bottom. And I'm definitely a top. And removing the dom/sub definitions gives us more flexibility in describing ourselves as sex partners.

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Totally makes sense, I bet you prefer the words because they more closely describe your roles.

Edited to add
I just saw more posts above these.

Leona, I think that will be an awesome discussion!

Emma500, It's the "like a female in every way" that I'm asking people to describe. That description doesn't mean anything, it doesn't tell me anything. What does it mean to you when you say that?

So are you suggesting it's possible to be a dominant bottom and a submissive top? (I happen to agree with that, actually....)

I think I prefer the words in part because they more closely describe our roles, and in part because they're flexible. We're also each a bit versatile (the third word so far left out), so she can be the top and I can be the bottom, but in terms of dom/sub, that really varies. Sometimes she's downright dominant, but never humiliating or whipping (I don't like that!), but she'll spank me as a show of affection just like I'll spank her. But there's never really a submissive here, either. And it doesn't matter what genders are being expressed.

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Originally Posted by Leona

So are you suggesting it's possible to be a dominant bottom and a submissive top?

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Absolutely. There's a woman I play with who is dominant as hell, but she likes being tied up. So she taught me the ways she likes to be tied up, and now when we play together, I submissively tie her in those ways. If my husband would be dominant when dressed, I think we'd have an easier time muddling through (he has been my dominant for twenty years), but now he's interested in exploring his submissive side and it's definitely a growth experience for both of us.

Are we going to differentiate "like a woman" and "as a woman" as well?
You could argue that "as a woman" doesn't imply sub/bottom as much as the first.

Being a woman has nothing to do with what we wear in our panties, it is everything about how we feel about ourselves as women.

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Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants

I have seen many people on these forums say things about being treated like a woman. So my question is, what does that mean do you? and where did you get that perception?

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The phrase “like a woman,” no matter how you phrase it, couch it, or slice it, implies deference. Speaking as a male, this deference is instilled in boys from Day One, at least until you form a relationship with a REAL woman, and then all deference be damned. Some MtF crossdressers wish to be treated like women, but this may come from a lifetime of being treated like a Man, i.e. without any compassion, love, or respect (unless you FIGHT well, that is). In my case, I don’t dress the way I do to be treated one way or another, but it is nice to upset the societal standard operating procedure, if only for a short time…

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Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

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I am submissive in the bedroom. It was awkward when the woman I was with wanted to “play” a submissive role – what then? Oh, NO! You mean I have to act like a man?
:doh:

The chivalry stuff really rocks my world. Sex could be interesting with the right female person really coming on to me and treating me like it's all about me!

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

I'll ask a reverse question though.
Are women brought up to be the submissive partners?

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To me, submission implies giving someone physical or mental control over you, and that is definitely something that I was not brought up to accept from a partner. However, traditionally I think women have been expected to be more passive in bed, which is not the same thing.

Sexually, it is nice to passively receive pleasure; I imagine that goes for both sexes. (Most men like oral, right?) I’ve certainly known men who liked to be made love to; they weren’t submissive at all, just receptive to the pleasure I wanted to give them. It went both ways.

I’ve wondered before with some of the things I’ve read on here if some crossdressers mistakenly think the feeling of receiving anal penetration is in some way similar to how a woman might feel during intercourse. I can't imagine how the experience of sexual pleasure as a man could ever be feminine; wouldn't it be biologically impossible? It seems like all pleasure that a man feels during sex would be inherently masculine to the core. So, it confuses me when I see crossdressers mention feeling feminine in bed.

For other areas in a relationship, I don't think women these days are very passive. It's normal for women to be assertive in dating and pay their own way. I was brought up to hold the door open for anyone who needs it. Households share more responsibilities, both partners may have careers, etc. I think of femininity as something that is a part of you, not a role that you take on. So it seems strange to me that some crossdressers not only put on female clothing but also adopt some role in their minds, as for an imaginary play. The costume is self-explanatory and something I accept; the role confuses me sometimes, especially as each person has his own idea of it.

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Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

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What is there in a woman's anatomy or psychology that makes her submissive in bed? I never got that. She has her equipment and the man has his. They are engaging in a form of cooperative play. Unless there is coercion involved, nobody is submitting to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Flent

To me, submission implies giving someone physical or mental control over you, and that is definitely something that I was not brought up to accept from a partner. However, traditionally I think women have been expected to be more passive in bed, which is not the same thing.

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Good catch!
Passive is definitely a better word, though submission is used so much more commonly - even in gay stuff so I have no idea how deep it really goes.

Although for the rest it depends on the person, it could be that they're internally more feminine and only express it enfemme.
I can see what you mean about anal not being feminine, it's just one of those things men are ingrained into while growing up that being penetrated is feminine.

I'd argue that there isn't any masculine/feminine in pleasure felt during sex, it's (mostly) the same nerves and chemicals aside from our personal feelings and how we're brought up to view them.
Not every man is "masculine to the core", a lot were forced to adopt a kind of fake masculinity as a means of protection and for some crossdressing allows their true self to be themselves, if for a short time.

I haven't got the hang of using the "reply with quote" function yet (any help appreciated) so, to quote Lorileah ..

"I don't think most the members here would really like being treated like most women get treated. Lower pay, less respect, being abused, being treated like they are less intelligent, less skilled, less logical. I think everyone wants the best side of that, not the REAL side."

.. is pretty much what I wanted to say :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants

Leona, I think that will be an awesome discussion!

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Heh, I didn't see you edited your post. :)

We had the discussion, and she agreed that top/bottom was better terminology for us. She also expressed appreciation that I treat her in an egalitarian sorta way when we're in bed together, which led to her thanking me for checking up on her (we can get pretty wild) and make sure she's still "in" with me, and how we both suggest position changes pretty much at the same time the other is thinking we should change... you know, stuff like that. Finding a position where we can see each other's faces, whether it's missionary or something facing a mirror, you know, stuff where we can make eye contact. Hell, last night we started with me in skirt, tank top, bra and forms, and ending with me completely naked whipping her with my bra. She's still tickled about that. :)

And even with the whipping (which we do pretty consistently 2-3 times a month), there's no dom/sub thing going on. And in that discussion, she told me she likes that there's no dom/sub thing happening, that it really is about the pleasure for both of us. (Interesting note, she had turned her head back to look at me and saw the bra coming in and ducked reflexively :) She was still laughing about it today).

Then we talked about how she can be quite aggressive and/or assertive, and I suggested she may enjoy trying on a domme role. She still has hangups with commands, so I suggested she try to manager-type command, you know "It would be nice if you swept the floor". We got distracted making fun of managers then, so that part of the conversation has yet to conclude. :)

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Originally Posted by Brenda Richards

I haven't got the hang of using the "reply with quote" function yet (any help appreciated)

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At the bottom of each person's post, do you see a light grey bar with three buttons: Reply, Reply with Quote, and "? If you just want to reply to one person's post with a quote, you hit Reply with Quote, and then leave the formatting instructions intact (they'll says QUOTE and /QUOTE), but you can cut down the words to just the part you want. If you want to reply to multiple people, then you hit the " multi-quote button at the bottom of each post you want to respond to, and then when you're done picking posts, you hit Reply to Thread at the very bottom of the thread. Hope that helps some!

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Originally Posted by Leona

She still has hangups with commands, so I suggested she try to manager-type command, you know "It would be nice if you swept the floor". We got distracted making fun of managers then, so that part of the conversation has yet to conclude. :)

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I think everyone who wants to dom has to find their own voice, so it feels authentic and fun, rather than artificial and constrained. For me, I didn't want a mom voice, or a cliche'd dominatrix voice, or a managerial voice. Instead I let out my bossy inner teenager -- and now I can have fun with it :-)

Thanks, Jess! :) I'll read through that a few more more times then try the techniques x

I used to be afraid of girls and women, and still am, to an extent. I , have been rejected for coming on too strong, and for being too passive! In a relationship, i tend to be more submissive. And, if i were to ever be in bed with a wife, i would be the more submissive, as i have had a lot of male shame, and male plumbing shame. As a guy, i have struggled with guys , and more comfortable with friendly women. I was in bed several times with guys, and was on the submissive side, but drew the line, where i would go.

I just wanted to add, that true gentlemen don't abuse women, and true ladies don't crush men. Mutual respect needed, and some old fashioned things were very good, like manners, and self-control, and honor.