I get it we lied to our SOs. . . but please

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Originally Posted by ReineD

There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Why Am I Afraid To Tell You Who I Am" by John Powell that, without being overly dramatic, saved my life many years ago.

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I'm not at all surprised that views are polarised. I was accused of lying and entrapment when I came out to my wife some 3 years after first forming our partnership. I don't believe I did - just the return of my need/urge to dress after more than 3 years hiatus.

I also understand our wive's views and accept that they have genuine reasons for feeling lied to and deceived.

The book recommended by Reine looks very helpful even now some 15 months post reveal as my wife and I continue to deal with the elephant in the room.

I've nothing really to add to what you've said, Isha, but you're absolutely right in my view. I wasn't "out" to my wife when we married .. I 'fessed up a couple of years in, now, in our nineteenth year of marriage, I can slip into a dress or skirt if I feel like it without Anne being upset or freaked out in any way, although I still feel a bit embarrassed if she comes into the bedroom when I'm fiddling about with the clips of a suspender belt or sorting out the layers on a net skirt :o

If you love someone you shouldn't lie to them, but you don't have to tell them everything all at once, imho.

Thanks for an excellent post, Hugs, Brenda :hugs:

Well Isha, that was a windy but well thought out thread. That said, I told my wife that I enjoyed wearing womens clothes on about my third date with her. Her, having a gay brother, who did occasional drag, she was convinced that it would "turn me gay". I dressed all through our marriage but kept it hidden, I suppose to protect both of us. I decided to come out only after she passed away. I started dating a wonderful woman shortly after my spouses demise and told her of my desire to crossdress after several dates. She has accepted my dressing to a point, that is she has no desire to see me or be with me when I'm dressed but I'm free to dress whenever I desire. I no longer have to hide from my SO because she accepts me for who I am, and I can live with the arrangement we agreed upon.

My wife of 45 years is now 67 years old and very conservative in her views on everything. I never 'came out' to her, but every so often over recent years she has discovered items which remind her of my 'little addiction' and she bins them immediately. That's always due to carelessness or forgetfulness on my part, but it invariably leads to friction and mistrust.

My philosophy is that I do it so privately that it doesn't offend anyone, but SHEWHOMUSTBEOBEYED doesn't see it like that, alas.

M.

Fortunately, I knew I had to come out to my fiancee before we were married. Nevertheless, we'd still been together for years before I finally did. Afterwards, if there was anything that she was, well, not upset, but "miffed" about, it's that I hadn't come forward with this sooner. Well, when she puts it that way, I understand...I could have had all that time free to be Amy and not worry about what she thought!

- Amy

Funny, but I don't think you're a bad person for keeping it hidden at all, Isha. I was told (well, parts of it) in the early days and I truly think I struggle more for this than if I'd had more time with my H without this other side. It's definitely clouded my attraction and even my respect, and I think if I'd had a longer time not knowing of this feminine side, I wonder if I'd be more accepting now?

That said, the shock is also terrible for a SO and this can destroy things beyond repair, so I'm happy for you that your wife is coping well.

One thought - you seem to be moving quite fast from telling to going out etc. I don't know if you know where this is heading (is there a chance you're TS?) but she may freak out unexpectedly if you push this further than she's comfortable. And yes, you talk often but we girls are good at being okay with something one day and really NOT okay with it the next. Have you asked her what her limits are? Do you know where her line is so that you don't cross it? Once you do, even if you come back, another level of trust is broken and it might be the final straw for your wife.

Anyway, I don't know her obviously, but that's just my perspective and I'm sure you will work all this out together x

I'm sure there are things that my wife hasn't told me. I believe that sometimes, there are things better left, unsaid.

Hi Missus,

You are correct that I have gone from telling and going out in quick order. I have been working with a colleague of mine who specializes in gender identity issues and she is convinced I am not TS. Specifically, I like my working parts right where they are I like them working (so no HRT for me). I will admit that Isha is a force of nature and the more I explore her, the harder it is to turn her off. That does give me cause for concern and that is one aspect of this journey I am working with my therapist on.

We have come to the realization that I am definitely bi-gendered in that I have two personas (male and female). One is expressed through my everyday life (male) and the other only gets to come out when I dress. This female side has been hidden for so long that the quick move to go out and her powerful effect on my day to day life is most likely a function of that side wanting to validate her existence within my psyche. This is coupled with my Type A personality which just wants to do things because I can. There is a reason why I moved from Psychology to working with my last unit (jumping out of a plane at 15000 feet or rushing into gun fire is quite the rush) so in a sense I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie and this may be feeding into my need to go out as I do get quite the thrill.

My wife and I attend therapy together on occasion in order to discuss and work through boundaries. She has hers and I have mine. Right now she is definitely in the camp that she will not go out with me anymore as she is afraid I will get hurt and she doesn't want to be there to see it. WRT to pushing the envelope, I would love to go out again. She is fine with it but only if she is allowed to pick the venue which she feels is safe. I live with that, as compromise is the gateway to a healthy relationship.

Will our relationship suddenly come crashing down around me? I really can't answer that question anymore that I could answer it if I wasn't CD and we just drifted apart. I do know we have been together for 24 years and she has seen a very dark side of me to which CD cannot hold a candle. She stuck with me through that so, I can only keep my fingers crossed.

Hugs

Isha

Isha, you really do sound like a considerate, thoughtful H. You are doing your best to be who are and who you need to be without destroying the life you already have. I really admire that.

I hope things work out for you both, but in the end if Isha needs more than your wife can handle there's not much either of you can do. Life isn't long enough to not be who you are if the need is unbearable. If it's something you can learn to control then that's also an option I suppose. Hopefully though, things will settle soon for you and you can both enjoy the rest of your lives without any more surprises.

Ha, yeah right. I'm yet to go six months without something tipping the apple cart. One day at a time, that's all we can do. M x

Isha, great post!

Thank you one and all for an interesting read, I suspect this string is a very good example of why so many of us check into the forum so regularly.

The variety of opinions and situations helps so much in forming our own unique persona and dealing with the thoughts we all have associated with CD and the intimacy of the associated problems, physical and emotional, spirituality, sexuality, et al of ourselves and our loved ones. Life is a process of becoming!

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Originally Posted by Isha

Isha is a force of nature and the more I explore her, the harder it is to turn her off.

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This is what I mean about sometimes it feels like the girl persona is a different person, trying to get out. Over time, the guy persona seems to become less and less in control of the situation, as the girl persona starts expressing herself. When we're told "but I'm the same person inside," that's somewhat like saying that your forty-year-old spouse is the same as the ten-year-old boy he used to be. Yes, they have the same genes, but so much else seems different...

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Originally Posted by Isha

I will admit that Isha is a force of nature and the more I explore her, the harder it is to turn her off. That does give me cause for concern and that is one aspect of this journey I am working with my therapist on.

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We call this state of being The Pink Fog. Husbands and wives have different definitions. Husbands will say it is this wonderful feeling they get when they engage in anything that relates to the CDing. Wives will say it is a Fog that takes over their husbands' brains, to the point where dressing and everything related to it becomes a life priority. My relationship with my SO was at its lowest point during this phase. Divorces happen during this phase.

The Fog tends to manifest itself in stages, when new barriers are broken. First accepting the CDing, first telling a wife, accumulating all the clothes and props in order to look better, beginning to go out, and last, beginning to interact with people while out. If these steps happen rapidly, it's not unheard of for the Fog to become so severe that people will begin questioning their gender identity.

The best antidote for the Fog in my opinion is to go out several times per week to do regular things, for at least one year.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

The best antidote for the Fog in my opinion is to go out several times per week to do regular things, for at least one year.

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Oh Doctor Reine. I love your prescription:):). It seems to be working but please can I have a repeat on the script for a few more years? :heehee:

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Originally Posted by Isha

There is a reason why I moved from Psychology to working with my last unit (jumping out of a plane at 15000 feet or rushing into gun fire is quite the rush) so in a sense I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie and this may be feeding into my need to go out as I do get quite the thrill.

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Isha, this is an interesting diversion to your initial thread. Some years ago I took up scuba diving and worked through to divemaster. Then serious off road 4WDing. So I did wonder whether CDing and going out was just another expression of thrill seeking. In fact it concerned me if this was the case that I would be satisfied/bored and move on to the next adventure. My concern was to lose the much greater satisfaction and pleasure than derived from the other activities I have tried.

To my relief (at least in some ways) that hasn't been the case and I continue to find pleasure and joy in going out dressed after a number of years. Dressing never gets old or too much trouble. There is always room to improve skills and enjoy new experiences.

There could indeed be a book or two written on this subject. I was lucky enough to come be drawn 'out' by my first wife, weeks after we married, and fortunate that she was accepting and adventurous. But despite her acceptance, I had not accepted myself. I bought into the societal notion that I was defective, perverse, and shameful. This lead to years of self loathing, which contributed to bouts of anger..really temper tantrums at nothing in particular.

Although I ran no risk of being exposed to my wife...she knew and tried to support me...I still bore the burden and suffered the consequences of hiding from myself. I understand how difficult and risky it can be to tell others, but I also feel it's important to acknowledge the cost of hiding from yourself. Often that cost can be very high.

I never considered an omission to be a lie. Besides, I thought I had everything under control. I have never been able to drop my defenses totally, with anyone. My wife passed away not knowing a few things about me. She didn't need to know those things. She withheld a few things from me as well. I did come out to her a year before her death, and it worked out okay.

I've been alone for a year now, and not sure that I want another relationship. I've started hrt, so it's hard to believe that I would find anyone. Even if I did, I doubt I'd be able to completely lower my defenses. It's just who I am.

Leah

My first wife didn't know a thing until she caught me in an embarrassing moment. My CDing had taken a lot of attention away from her, and she, for years, blamed herself for what I was actually responsible for. And I let her live that way. That was the fundamentally unforgivable thing that I was guilty of.

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Originally Posted by Maslow's Mum

So, he didn't tell her because he loved her so much he was terrified of losing her
but then he did tell her because he loved her so much....and he lost her.

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It is why if you are dating you need to tell early on. An SO needs to understand before both of you are committed. It is better to lose early than latter. Even after telling it is not unusual for the SO to change their mind in the future. Not telling will also cause some SOs to wonder what else you are hiding.

As soon as we are born, we are steered into one direction or another. For me toy trucks and blue clothes, not dolls and pink. As the first inclination and opportunity to try something on that belongs to the "other side" hits, we did it in secret, behind a locked bedroon or bathroom door. We just knew. When I was punished as a boy caught playing with my mom's lipstick, it drove me deep in to the closet. I had a need, but expressing that need through behavior was unacceptable, so I had no choice than to keep it private. Suddenly I'm grown up but my dressing is still private. It wasn't shame, but just living within the rules set for me by others.
I'm one of the many who married with the secret, and one of many who honestly thought that the excitement of crossdressing would be replaced by the excitement for the bride. Especially for those of us who were BC (before computers and the internet) we had no resources other than psychology books and Penthouse Forum which told us we either had a psychology problem or were sexually deviant. Of course, we were wrong about the CDing going away. When we realized this, we were left with two choices (to tell or not), with both choices having unpredictable outcomes. Those outcomes have been great for some but disastrous for others.
So we can only do what we think is best for our particular situation for that particular time.
Many of the "you must tell" people have selfish motives: it's good for the CDing community (them) but at your expense. They don't care if your relationship is destroyed, offering only that there was probably some other reason. Let's remember that the CDers who have already come out, did so at a time of their own choosing, a choice they don't think others should have.

Very well written post Isha, I don't think I could have ever put my feelings on this subject into the proper words as you have here. I agree with it 100% and it about time someone actually said it around here.

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Does that make me a bad person, facetious, the evil master of the netherworld, or a criminal? No. It makes me human and guess what humans make mistakes, exercise poor judgement or heaven forbid try to insulate themselves from harm, ridicule or just plain nastiness. I did not wake up one day and say . . . "Hey I'm bored what can I do to ruin a life. Ah ha, I think I am going to start wearing dresses and panties, find a woman, marry her, keep it a secret and then drop it on her after 24 years." No. I couldn't change who I was, if it was that easy I wouldn't be here. Instead, I carried this secret locked deep inside because I was embarrassed and confused.

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I never really read where anyone thought any of that. Thank goodness:D the bad person, facetious, the evil master of the netherworld, part

And about the embarrassed and confused...totally get that and always hope when coming out that person explains that.:thumbsup: so the GG understands.......alot hinges on them understanding and both partners getting on the same page.

I do try to post from experience of GGs that I know here at the forum and our local group the biggest hurdle for most wives finding out by accident is feeling left out,betrayed and lied to.
I personally never had that as I knew from the getgo and met Sherlyn not the guy side for many months.

I think it is a gift:love:

Here is my opinion-
So many say on here that communication is vital to being able to sustain a healthy relationship. Marriage or to any commitment of an SO. communication and commitment... Two things that are not being properly provided when not disclosing crossdressing. I am as guilty as so many others for not initially disclosing my crossdressing desires. It's difficult, scary, no guarantees how it will turn out.

Many will say (and there is some truth ) that the relationship and or marriage would not have taken place had they known from the beginning. Well, to me that means that perhaps the person whom we choose who cannot handle the crossdressing in the 1st place is not really meant to be a significant other with a long term if not lifetime commitment. We are only best serving ourselves to be upfront from the beginning so that we can also choose our best partners.

Disclosure is of utmost importance in making the most important decisions in life. To make the proper decisions and to be able to move forward in unity. Our courts demand full disclosure from prosecutors so that juries make the best possible decision not only of guilt or innocence, but also as to what extent the crime (if there is) is and the correct action to be taken as a result.

Not that what we do is a crime by any means. But the importance of disclosure cannot be underestimated. Of the successful relationships where CDing is involved, those who have early disclosure before there is a commitment are the majority. Those who have early disclosure are free from the pain of betrayal. The trust that has been lost. The hurt from not keeping up our end of the deal when we are supposedly telling our SO's all about us. WE leave out a vital piece of information. One that our prospective SO's should be entitled to so they can make a decision whether or not to move forward with the relationship and form a commitment.

In most cases, it is not the CDing itself which is the primary cause of relationship difficulties after disclosure. It is the feelings of betrayal. The hurt, the lost trust. The time lost due to an SO who must now relearn an entire way of thinking and feeling about their partner. They are burdened not only with that above which I have mentioned, but now must simultaneously adjust to the changes of which many are not knowledgeable of, or initially comfortable with. It takes time and a lot of it to become knowledgeable and to become comfortable with it. And it takes a lot of time to heal the wounds of betrayal. To be able to regain trust. All of that which if there was early disclosure we and they would never have to go through.

Sure, there are all kinds of reasons why, but none of them are good enough. Not in my opinion anyway. And it is what I regret the most in life, not telling her, not giving her the choice. Making her lose trust and feel awkward of that which she has known very little, and the discomfort. My biggest do over in life would have come 4 and a half years ago. I would have told her then. We end up rolling the dice eventually, and it only gets harder the longer it goes on, so why not spare all the negativity that comes with late disclosure or being caught.

I one of those who told my wife before we were married. Even so, she thinks I didn't tell the "whole truth" and minimized the importance of crossdressing to me. I remember it differently, but hey... she could be right. :)

I think it's always better to disclose before you get too far into a relationship; I think if my wife had found out after 15 years of marriage our marriage would have ended. It's far better to take the risk of disclosure when there's less at stake.

Having said that, I completely understand why some people might not disclose until well into the marriage. It's a very scary thing to do. I'm not judging those who did not disclose; I don't know what it's like to be in their positions. But if you are in a new relationship and are contemplating long-term commitment, I strongly urge you to disclose before you become deeply entangled.

Some lies are healthy for a relationship. "Honey, do you like my hair? Do I look fat in this? I really loved that film; what did you think?" But lying about crossdressing, even by omission, is most definitely not gonna be healthy. It's simply too big and important an issue.

When I was a young boy, there was no internet, no computers, no television, no air conditioners and no cell phones. Most people had ice boxes, coal fired furnaces, and many of our neighbours' automobiles (1920's vintage) were on blocks awaiting the end of the war and gasoline and rubber rationing. Technicolor movies were in their infancy and sexual reassignment surgery was still a decade or so away. People were more concerned with the war effort, and getting over the effects of the depression than whether anybody wanted to mate with the same sex, or dress like the opposite sex. After the war, the emphasis was on getting life back to normal and dealing with the impact of the baby boom generation on schools, housing and other scarce resources to worry about some vague thing called transvestism. Boys and men were supposed to do the things expected of boys and men. There was no time to deal with esoteric issues such as "self esteem" "attention deficit disorder" or any of the other modern childhood afflictions that may or may not be either dreamed up or the product of modern schooling and disciplinarian shortcomings.

It was during this period that I reached puberty and began sensing the curiosities about life that led to a lifetime of crossdressing activity. Given the attitudes and necessities of the times, you had a not unexpected feeling of guilt and shame about such transgressions. It was fun to do, but so were most of the "sins" of the day about which you were constantly reminded. It is no wonder that this "habit" or "diversion" became such a personal secret that you dared not disclose to anybody. There was nowhere to turn for information, advice or support. Anything you did happen to read considered it to be a psychological disorder to be treated with electric shock therapy or other forms of aversion therapy. For example, you were dressed up in women's clothing and then fed something that would make you violently throw up, so that you associated crossdressing with horrendous feelings.

This was also an era when pre-marital sex was one of the worst sins, just short of murder. People tended to be virgins when they married. Marriage, with its anticipated sexual intimacy, seemed like something that surely would eliminate any desires for wearing female clothing. The discovery that these feelings were returning was devastating from a mental standpoint. Keep in mind that it was still the early 1960's when I was now a married man, realizing that after a number of years of abstinence from crossdressing after courting my wife to be, and then establishing our marital home life, that my desires were now returning. Attitudes had not changed and the secret was now a more worrisome thing than ever before.

Yes, I bristle now, when I read posts that proclaim we are liars for having our secrets. These seemingly altruistic opinions in most cases were formed long after the era that I am referring to. They are the opinions of those who cannot understand the mentality that created that secret, just like the population in general cannot understand the desire to crossdress. Nicole Scott referred to the "you must tell" people and that could be extended to include the "you must go out" people. I used to think of this as merely foolhardy advice, but I am beginning to see it as self-serving by those promoting a TG rights agenda. For most of those who post, such a message is totally unintentional, and we probably all contribute to that at one time or another when we disclose our thoughts feelings or desires. That message, however, tends to imply that not telling or not being out is somehow morally wrong. It does not take into consideration ingrained feelings of morality, and assumes that a lifetime of such feelings can easily be discarded.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

just like the population in general cannot understand the desire to crossdress.

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Of course they can't Most are doing it on the sly...who sneaks around doing things? People who are doing something wrong, right. So it is self fulfilling but that isn't what I was responding to...

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Nicole Scott referred to the "you must tell" people

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... Quick aside here, it isn't you must tell PEOPLE...it is you must tell the one you promised to be honest with forever and ever, ok back to the point

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and that could be extended to include the "you must go out" people. I used to think of this as merely foolhardy advice, but I am beginning to see it as self-serving by those promoting a TG rights agenda.

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OK here is where I need to protest. It isn't TG rights it is HUMAN rights, the right to do everything everyone else gets to do without question. And there is no agenda except to have everyone on an equal footing.

I love how things get twisted around here and everyone starts yelling from the highest hill. OK scenario

Wife: Honey I noticed my lingerie has been moved or rearranged, do you now how this happened?
Husband "Uh no dear" That is a lie...right? we agree? So it is no longer a omission, it is a lie. And trust me your wife remembers that when 20 years later you say "I crossdress." That raises its head and the wife says "Wait a minute, you said...." And now there is 20 years between so she has to think..."WTH else didn't you tell me? I remember asking if you were seeing someone else...you said no...but now I wonder. Oh and the check that was written for 50$ cash....where did you spend our money and for what? Oh and when I asked if you are gay? You said no...but that was 20 years ago too...Hmmm" How many times do we have to explain that it isn't the fact you dress, it isthe fact you think you know more than your spouse and you think you can make their minds up for them and you don't allow them to decide early on if this is a deal breaker or not and now 20 years are gone, 20 years she could have maybe been doing something else with her life. But you don't understand that. You don't get how your keeping things from her, hurts HER. You are protecting yourself though.

And yes, I am one of those TG rights people because I think that every one should be paid the same wage, be able to live where they want, use any public facilities they desire, get married to who they love. I don't see that as being for a specific group, I would say the same even for people in any situation.

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It does not take into consideration ingrained feelings of morality, and assumes that a lifetime of such feelings can easily be discarded.

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Yes it is hard to discard misplaced feelings, unteach wrong feelings, relearn something (and admit, this is all learned response.) But we have in the last 80 years done just that. We know that things we were taught are incorrect. Yet, we now have equal rights legally for other groups.

To tell or not to tell is a highly personal and complex decision with often profound (positive and negative) consequences. Both sides of the debate have made strong arguments to support their positions. Bottom line is that anyone giving advice does not have to live with the consequences.

I know personally the costs and benefits. I can and do offer personal support and advice to anyone who has to deal with the consequences of discovery.

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

Nicole Scott referred to the "you must tell" people and that could be extended to include the "you must go out" people. I used to think of this as merely foolhardy advice, but I am beginning to see it as self-serving by those promoting a TG rights agenda. For most of those who post, such a message is totally unintentional .... Veronica

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I must join the protest on this. I will happily share my experiences in going out and the general level of tolerance if not acceptance I find with the public. I do so to encourage those who would like to venture out but are too fearful of reactions. Frankly I don't need others to go out dressed and my agenda is simply to support those who would like to try.

We are all intelligent people - take the experience of others into account and make your own decisions as to whether to tell your SO or whether to go out in public.