Chickie, if you said, "That sucks. So can you look into getting it fixed?"-- what would happen next?
(Yelp has made it a lot easier to do that research, at least in some regions.)
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Chickie, if you said, "That sucks. So can you look into getting it fixed?"-- what would happen next?
(Yelp has made it a lot easier to do that research, at least in some regions.)
Jess, what a great question! I completely understand what you're getting at. You're asking why the choice of clothing/presentation has to be tied to a "I'm so tired of being a man" statement. Really, why can't the guy say that he wants his wife to make all the decisions this weekend? Or that he doesn't feel like doing any stereotypical manly chores for a few days. Or that he would like her to initiate sex once in awhile. If forum members should do this, would they then feel such a strong need to crossdress?
I think they still would. So maybe when they say they are tired of being men, they really mean that they are tired of looking like men?
For what it's worth, I can reverse the situation. As an at home mom, I also got tired of making three meals a day, years on end. Or tired of being the one to get up with the baby(ies) at night all those years, or being the one to cancel my activities when the kids were sick, or running them around to all their activities. Or being the one who seemingly would bend in order to keep the peace. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that all of us get into ruts over many of the things that we do regularly. It's not a gendered thing, it's human. Yet despite my wishing occasionally to have a break, I never did feel the need to look like and/or present as a man (and no, wearing jeans doesn't count) in order to escape my ruts. lol
Not exactly. I think most of us on here hate having to conform to society's expectations of our appearance and behavior. We have this part of us we want to express, but can't. So the other societal gender roles that get foisted upon us rankle worse than they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
You'll notice that in threads about male privilege, most of the most ardent critics of the notion of male privilege are CDs, and other TG folks who feel the benefits they get from male privilege (which are huge), don't outweigh the cost. Because they really are tired of being forced to always be men.
There's an element of truth to what you say, Reine particularly the notion that women have plenty to complain about with the roles they are assigned. (I have no argument for this - I know it is the truth.) So how can CDs, who have the awesome and magnificent benefit of male privilege decry it's very existence? Because the downside to being a guy is you can't be feminine in this society, at least not very feminine, and the more you show this, the more you lose the rights to your man card.
I believe the ones who declare "I'm tired of always being a man." I surely was - I wanted to be one 0% of the time. Others here have differing percentages.
I dunno Jess. Maybe they are just tired and need a break from life in general. Even if a husband talked with his wife wouldn't something else crop up in time that cause him to become weary and in need of escape? Just to unwind?? I would have to imagine that men that cross-dress do discuss things with wife's the same as those who do not cross-dress. I do understand your point, but I think the point we miss is that it cannot be narrowed down or nailed down so simply. Lordy if it could be explained simply I'd think someone would write that book and retire in luxury. There are just somethings in life we cannot understand unless we live it no matter how often or sincerely someone explains it to us. I think this is one of those things Jess.
I would say any CD, TS, or other gender variant who had a difficult time trying to be a man and hiding femininity (and consequently have been read as gay or sissy) are usually the most ardent critics of male privilege.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I also think accepting the notion of male privilege makes the assumptions that men are perpetrators, and women are victims. If you're a male who has played the victim role, whether to a male or female perpetrator, to you male privilege breaks down. If you've been a victim of a female perpetrator, regardless if you're male or female, male privilege also breaks down. This is why some GGs who were bullied by other women also don't believe in male privilege.
Those of us who had a difficult time hiding our femininity, and got read as gay or sissy lose a lot of our male privilege, and therefore to us, male privilege does not outweigh the costs - so to us women may be perceived to have more benefits than men, or at least there is an equal trade-off between the genders.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Those of us who were able to hide our gender variance retained all our male privileges, and therefore to us, male privilege does outweigh the costs.
We all have a bias towards our own life experience without regards to how others experienced their life. If your father worked 80 hours a week and was never home, you might assume all men work long hours. If your father worked 40 hours a week and was home by 5:30 pm every night, you might assume that all men are home by 5:30 pm every night. If you grew up in a home where there was always food on the table and bills always paid that everyone had the same and you may be oblivious to the fact that there are people who starve and live without electricity. If you grew up eating only once per week with electricity being turned off half the time, you might think that's normal. It's called the normalcy bias.
DebbieL - I can relate to most of what you said in your post.
Oh, if only. Ultimately, male privilege didn't keep me from transition as much as fear did. When I grew up, losing your man card was sometimes punished by death. Oh wait - it still is sometimes. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle789
There is much truth in what you say Paula. I am not TS. So I want to be both male and female. However my girlfriend wants me to be male only. So I can oly be female when we are not together. C'est la vie.
Thanks, everyone, for these thoughtful replies. I've come to a new conclusion about the topic.
When I posted originally, I thought that a man could "let go" of some aspect of his male role and just be non-male or gender-neutral for a while. When I let go of some stereotypical female behavior (like trying to take care of the household), I feel gender-neutral. I don't feel male.
But the female role in our culture is more "marked" (with clothes, make-up, mannerisms, etc.) And the "unmarked case" is seen as more male (boring, unemotional). For more on how gender is marked/unmarked, see Deborah Tannen's 1993 New York Times Magazine piece "Marked Women, Unmarked Men", at http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/t.../nyt062093.htm
So now I see that "letting go" of that male role may require going beyond what I see as "gender-neutral," and incorporating some stereotypical female attributes, just to counter-balance one's normal male role. I'm going to think more about this, but I really appreciate everyone's help so far.
I don't think those stereotypes of male and female gender roles are a the core of being transgendered. Working isn't a male or female role today, nor really has it ever been, outside certain income levels. My female relatives worked their buns off, even before outside the home employment became commonplace for women. And they dealt with bugs, sick livestock,, stifled their emotions and helped manage family affairs.
I view those men who espouse frustration with the demands of their gender roles as having problems unrelated to being transgendered. First, they are clinging to an idealized view of women which for most of the worlds women has never been accurate. And second, they are indulging in escapist fantasies predicated on mistaken ideas about women's lives. They probably have entertained other equally unrealistic fantasies about how to escape their responsibilities.
If a person feels trapped by male responsibilities, I'm sorry. They need to focus on getting a realistic view of life. It's not a cakewalk for anyone.
For me, living as a woman doesn't and never has meant getting a pass on responsibilities. It's about expressing and fulfilling myself, not escaping.
One of the things I admire about my friends who are in same-sex marriages or relationships is how they navigate these roles openly and at a practical level. They talk about how to divide up housework, swap out who initiates sex, both can lift heavy boxes, both express emotions. Once you remove the ability to revert to stereotypical gender roles, couples can have a frank discussion about many subjects. I can certainly see how someone who is trans would have a different preference on these roles. In my experience, however, many CDers enter into more traditional relationships in an attempt to conform or "cure" themselves. That can make changing these roles more difficult.
I really don't think that being a crossdresser and being tired of being a man are related. Its more of a different way of expressing dissatisfaction with responsibility and gender roles. Certainly a crossdresser could be tired of being a man when you'd rather be wearing a dress than a suit. But one could also simply be tired of all the obligations of the gender role in general. As others have said the expectations of manual labor, auto and home maintenance, bread winning, a certain stoicism can be draining. (don't get me wrong women have equally tiring expectations) While these male roles are no longer absolute the pressure, both self imposed and external is very real. While a typical male would never consider taking on a female role, a crossdresser who has already crossed the gender boundary with respect to clothes at least may entertain the idea of escaping whatever aspect of the male gender role the dislike by being female. A typical male may be more apt to say "i'm tired of... my job ...my life ...being an adult....)
As far as what it means to be tired of being a man.
- I wish I could look at clothes I like when I go shopping.
- I wish I could compliment a dress or shoes etc with out seeming weird or creepy.
- I wish I could buy myself tulips once in a while.
- I wish I could get rid of body hair.
- i'd love to dance more like a girl (although I'm built like a tank so it would look odd i'm sure.)
- and yes I wish I didn't bear total responsibility for the cars and the yard maintenance without my agreement simply because "those are man things."
While all of these are possible I would have to break the gender role barrier to do them. So when I feel trapped being responsible for things or being prohibited from things I might think "I'm tired of always being a man"
I love this kind of stuff.
The trials and tribs of my transition have convinced me that a more liberal attitude about gender variance would have saved me from years of confusion. Would I have still transitioned if I could have openly said at 7 years old that I prefer to hang out with the girls? I don't know, but a cross-dressing man would NOT have such deep emotional feelings about pieces of fabric if the very idea of being pretty or fabulous wasn't completely closed off to them during their formative years.
The whole concept of masculine and feminine roles in marriage is a total red herring here though. A cross-dressing man has no concept of femininity outside of their own understanding and that means clothes and shopping and 'women's work'. The idea that they are somehow trapped in a masculine hell because they have to kill bugs or work on the car is childish and delusional. There are MILLIONS of men who don't do such things and they would punch you in the face if you called them a sissy because of it. There are millions more who are just not very traditionally masculine yet are completely straight and have no problem being men. The nebbishy Woody Allen type comes to mind.
A man who is trapped in a life of rigid expectations of masculinity is living in a trap that he created himself. I don't blame him because as a closet queen for many many years I totally understand the comfort of "being a man" when you look like one. The larger point here is one that I keep trying to get across to the closet cases and it nearly always falls on deaf eyes; You don't need to 'come out' as a CD to be an authentic person, you just need to come out as an authentic person.
Cross-dressing can be a private activity, but you can still be a man who doesn't like to work on cars, or who doesn't like sports, or who likes to shop with his wife. In my case I never felt masculine but near the end of my closeted existence I was a man who enjoyed racing dirt-bikes but didn't like working on them. I would get the occasional snide comment when my cousin would take over the track-side maintenance for me, or load my bike for me, but by then I wasn't afraid anymore so I just cracked wise myself. I was no longer pretending to be interested in football, or a gazillion different things, and I was amazed at how okay it was. I was gay (or so I thought) but most people didn't know that and more importantly they didn't assume it as far as I knew.
I was just a guy who liked SOME guy stuff and didn't like some OTHER guy stuff. Any macho dude who wanted to call me out on my lack of manliness didn't get the response he was expecting. I don't back down from anyone and it's not because I'm some bad-ass, it's simply because I'm not afraid. Most of the manly men who CD here have rugged masculine personas that they are afraid of losing by just being who they are but I'm here to tell you that nobody will assume all of the things you're afraid they're going to assume. I was openly gay, yet many people STILL didn't think I was gay. If you are a regular dude who isn't afraid of getting in someone's face if they disrespect your wife, then why do you think that has to change if you admit to everyone that killing spiders creeps you out? Or if you like shopping for shoes with your girlfriend? Nobody has to know that you like to cross-dress, but don't you want them to know who you really are outside of that? If you're a guy who likes MMA and Rupaul, who would give a shit?
I say come out, but not as a CD. Come out as a real man, a real complex man with varied interests. Eventually you will develop a circle of friends who really know you and after a few years you might forget why you were EVER closeted.
Brynna, I hope you will buy yourself some tulips! How could anyone object to that, or if they did, why would you care what such a person thought? As for dancing -- if you can afford a wii system there's a "Just Dance" game that puts up a girl dancing and you follow along. My husband looks better than I do when following her sexy moves!
How bad would the fall-out be if you said you were done with that maintenance and it would be done by professionals now? Can your family afford that by cutting back elsewhere? Or could you rethink your lives to move to a smaller place without a yard, or a more urban neighborhood with better public transportation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynna M
Brilliantly said, Badtranny!Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Good point, Ashley.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley Smith
1. That's neat for California and stuff. Here in Texas, where I grew up, they murdered (I mean this quite literally) the one openly gay kid in our school. It ain't like San Francisco too many other places. In fact, I can think of about maybe 2-3 others in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
2. Hey, I hate to break it to you, but you kind of failed at the "complex man" thing, since you are a woman now. Just sayin'...
I don't argue that much of the prison that contains so many of us is built in our own minds. What a lot of you really fail to comprehend is that it's built as a defense mechanism. When you are a kid, and defenseless, and some overbearing grown up beats your ass for acting like "a faggot", you learn to hide things.
The expectations of society are pretty rigid for both genders - but when you have men building up a defensive shell made of this crap, the problem isn't so much that they are tired of it - the problem is they are tired of feeling like they are in prison, in solitary confinement. That's certainly how I felt.
Tearing down the walls that constrained who I really am was one of the most emotionally traumatic experiences I've ever gone through. I felt like I was losing my mind at times, and I nearly didn't survive it.
It isn't what we're made to do that is so bad - it's what we feel we can never expose.
People here keep looking at the visible stuff - the directly observable things. It isn't about that. It's the negative stuff, the invisible stuff, the stuff that is desired, but seemingly unobtainable. And sure, most of this is in our heads - but there are often real, and negative consequences to exhibiting these behaviors. If there weren't, we wouldn't have GG's here seeking support. (No offense ladies - it isn't your fault either, you are just as much a victim here as anyone else.)
There are few gender variant tolerant places in the USA.
1. San Francisco/San Jose/bay area
2. Los Angeles/Long Beach/Ventura
3. Palm Springs (but not the rest of the Coachella Valley) - Palm Springs has a huge gay population
Maybe tolerant places - I'm basing this on a list of states that have transgender protection laws so it's purely speculation
1. Seattle
2. Minneapolis
3. Boston
4. NYC
Even DC isn't tolerant. I tried buying women's clothes in DC and got rude comments from the SA's on several occasions. I never had any trouble shopping in California.
I'm pretty sure Bakersfield ain't tolerant.
Michele789, you left out New Jersey, eastern Pennsylvania, and Maryland. If I can walk into a Dunkin Donuts in a working class neighborhood of Baltimore wearing a dress and not have people bat an eye, and get decent service, then I've won the game. I don't believe America is self righteous Old Testament Bible-thumping meanies.
I've been fortunate to have been in the transgender community up and down the east coast, and have had the opportunity of comparing notes between crossdressers and transsexuals that I've met, and everyone in between. I like it here.
NathalieX66 - I'm really happy to hear that. That gives me hope. So maybe it's not as bad as 2-3 places. I guess the more liberal east and west coast places are tolerant, while the conservative south and middle America are not. There are plenty of people from the south and midwest who will tell you tales of intolerance, violence, and even murder to LGBT people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_ri..._United_States
The above article gives us a good indication of LGBT tolerance in the USA. Look under anti-discrimination section for states where you're job and housing are protected by state law. Most of the states that offer protection to transgender people are in the northeast, west coast, and a few in the middle of the country. These states are probably the most trans-friendly states. As you see, not a single southern state, including Texas, has any anti-discrimination laws for gender identity.
But the fact that so many states are more trans-friendly gives me hope. Besides, the states that are the most tolerant are the ones that have all the high-paying jobs, right. I mean, who goes to Arkansas or Alabama for a high-paying career job? Not many people. Lots of people go to NYC, NJ, SF, LA, and Seattle for high-paying jobs.
Well, you've completely missed my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Let me repeat the part about NOT coming out as a CD, and assuming "being authentic" doesn't in fact mean you become a flaming queen, then I stand by my comments.
Yes I failed at being a masculine man, then I failed at being an openly gay man, then I failed at being a cross-dresser, then I decided to transition and ....SUCCESS!
I'm also assuming that the average cross-dresser doesn't want to transition, because if that's the case than my advice definitely missed the mark. I was talking to the guys who feel like they must dress like a woman before they can be authentic. I say that's nonsense. They can keep the dressing private thus maintain their precious manhood yet be a more sensitive or interesting man in the light of day. I seriously doubt the Texans are going to get too upset if a guy likes to sew or cook or watch Project Runway. I'm saying be as manly as you really are in the pursuit of things you enjoy like hunting or boxing or whatever the hell you enjoy, and just be honest about the things you don't enjoy doing. If one of your macho buddies gives you lip, just give it back to him.
It's simply preposterous to act like a macho jerk all day and then flounce around calling yourself Kendra at night. Just relax your rigid attitude about who you're supposed to be. Try being sweeter to people or openly enjoy watching chick flicks with your wife. Whatever your 'thing' is, just try and be a real and complete person. If your personality changes due to fabric or the lack of it, then you have issues that need to be explored. You have a bifurcation that needs to be mended. Allow yourself to be the person that you are and the clothes will become less important.
Misty, you have some valid points here. There are many different paths and each of us is different. Some of us need to transition. Some with SRS, others without SRS. Others can dress up sometimes and incorporate feminine behaviors into ourselves when in male mode. Some of us need to dress publicly, others can just dress privately. Acting macho is a necessary survival trait and it takes courage and time to unlearn it, but it can be done. In some places, it's really necessary to be macho.
But the fact is prejudice and violence is real. Some places see prejudice and violence worse than others. Texas isn't as open-minded as California and threats of violence are real. It depends on what part of Texas or California too. In San Francisco, Los Angeles, or parts of Dallas, Houston, Austin, or San Antonio, it's probably not necessary to act macho. In Bakersfield or most of Texas, it probably is necessary to act macho. And it was far worse 30-40 years ago than it is today. Hopefully, we continue to progress towards more acceptance, but for now we have to accept reality that brutal violence towards LGBT really does happen, be aware of it, but live and hope for the best.
It's good that you asked this question, JessM. As a man, I enjoy being the leader of so many things in so many ways for my family. I wouldn't ever won't to give it up completely. That said, the stress that builds from having to be constantly unflappable, strong, logical, aggressive, and all the while bottle up my emotions can be debilitating at times.
Dressing provides a way to rest and recharge "on the other side" where I perceive I don't have to do any of that -- where my soul can laugh, cry, twirl, dance, sing and be at peace for a brief period and my mind can feel unencumbered by responsibility. The clothes provide an added ambiance to the experience of that escape. Likewise, the act of preparing for and then actually dressing is indeed physical process of unwinding from the accumulated stress. At the risk of sounding brash, dressing is at times like a foreplay for the mind in transitioning to a different place.
Over the years I've learned it works best for me to dress in regular doses versus starve-then-binge. I'm thankful for a supportive wife who gets that, and enjoys my company in either pant or skirt.
All that said, I feel that even if life gifted me richly and all I had to do all day was relax on a sunny beach and listen to the waves crash and then lap against the shoreline, there's still girl in me somewhere at the molecular level. No doubt, then, I would occasionally want to enjoy that beach in a too cute, flouncy skirted one piece swimsuit, a matching tote, and a pair of adorable little flower topped beach sandals :battingeyelashes:
But, MissTee, couldn't you let yourself be a little flappable, non-aggressive & emotional, even in drab? Are the roles really enforced so strictly that it's easier for a man to be emotional in a dress than in jeans?
It is interesting that you assert this despite all the evidence to the contrary. Do you present as male often ? I don't do it at all anymore, last time I tried it was too taxing emotionally, never again.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadTranny
Why is it difficult to imagine that what a CD goes through is similar but of a lesser intensity as the GD we suffer from? They need a vacation in girl town sometimes, and in their minds the way there is through clothes. There are exceptions, but most of them I know of involve behavior that would not be accepted as masculine in many places.
The things you suggest are simply insufficient for many of the CDs out there.
He'll yes they are enforced that rigidly!!!! Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it . In school it was made VERY clear to me that boys don't cry.Quote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
This stuff isn't easy to turn on and off.
Prejudice towards gender variant behavior ranges from murder to subtle discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Sometimes it takes extreme forms like murder or brutal beatings.
Sometimes it takes more subtle forms like getting excluded from the clique, getting shunned, getting passed over for a promotion or raise, or getting laughed at or teased.
Sometimes it takes an in between form of verbal harassment, or someone yelling and screaming at you, or telling you to "figure it out", or to "man up".
I got bullied on one of my previous jobs - my boss always said "figure it out" when I asked for help.
I lost another of my previous jobs because of lack of confidence, even though my boss wasn't exactly the most confident person either.
Someone that I really trusted, a psychic, told me to "man up" and she yelled at me when she said it. She also told me that "gender confusion comes from the devil".
I got bullied in school, and when I went to file a complaint to the principal, the administrators told me that I need to learn to deal with bullies on my own, and that I can't always keep filing complaints.
And plenty of people have been through much worse than I have been.
No wonder men can be such jerks sometimes. They're forced to be.
Again Paula, completely missing the point but you're not the only one so I'm clearly not getting my point across very well. Obviously I don't make an effort to present as male but I have curves and huge boobs so I don't have much of a choice. My transition is complete. I wasn't trying to advise people that are in transition and maybe that was my mistake. I have very little experience with cross-dressing so perhaps I'm completely wrong, but I don't consider them to be frustrated transsexuals. I consider them to be men who enjoy cross-dressing because they feel some need to express some kind of 'femininity' and they don't know how to do it any other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
All I'm trying to say is maybe they should consider the crazy idea of trying to find ways to work their real personality into their real lives. I am not saying they should come out as TS or CD or anything too freaky, just be three dimensional men. Clearly this concept is too progressive for this forum but I pity anyone who is so ruled by fear that they can't even admit to enjoying a sappy movie or a pedicure with their daughter.
Whatever, it makes no difference to me.
It isn't this forum that has a problem with your ideas. It's society. Although most CDs don't achieve your ideas there are a small percentage that do. There are threads about incorporating femininity into male mode, and several people on this forum do so, but only a few. Why? Society frowns upon it, sometimes brutally. And in California, we have it easy compared to other places. Your ideas may work better in some geographic locations than others. In Texas, your ideas probably won't work any time soon, except maybe in Austin. In the west coast and northeast, they may work for a few CDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Many CDs need to separate male and female expression due to societal constraints, thus making it difficult to incorporate your ideas. Once again, it's not that this forum is against your ideas, but society makes it difficult to practice them. Most of this forum doesn't live in San Francisco or Los Angeles.
And there are some TS girls pre-transition, and some CDs, and some gays, that just have difficulty hiding femininity, and they pay for it, some worse than others. Some get laughed at, some get shunned, some get killed. Some places are more tolerant than others.