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For the record, I avoid Walmart with or without kids. I don't mean to be argumentative. I do feel that 'the wear what you want' attitude can and often does reinforce the worst stereotypes about CDrs. Obviously you don't agree, but can it least be conceded that some attire is simply not suitable for public settings...or does freedom always demand and justify such attire?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ressie
First Reine, I agree with your entire post. THAT should be a sticky. Might help some get a little bit centered.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
But to the point above, I think there is a third major camp: a middle ground of sorts. I don't think I fit either of the camps above. I DO wish I could pass. That ability would make both me and the normals feel at ease. But I know I don't pass. I do my best, but I accept it will never do. I can only hope for passing the glance test at most. So am I satisfied that I do not pass? Not really, but I'm pragmatic, certainly not delusional. So on your camp spectrum above, I think I'm in between.
Maybe I should work on being delusional? I've been hearing good things....
You yourself said that GGs have a strong societal pressure not to have excessive facial or body hair and you described a woman with facial hair akin to a circus freak show? Unless I misunderstood? I know a woman who had a lot of dark facial hair above her lip. She was mortified about this and shaved frequently, until she got enough money for electrolysis. She did not like being stared at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
To Eryn and also Jennifer, yes, of course. I simplified for my point, limiting it to the people who do present as women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
You are addressing only a partial segment of the members in this forum, the members who want to be taken as GGs with no hint of cross-gender expression. But a lot of our members who do present as females in public do not identify as women (even though they may identify as gender fluid), they know they are men (or gender fluid), in fact they know there is no way they could sustain passing as women up close and further their desire to present as stealth women is not strong enough to undergo HRT and major body modifications. And they also do not want to be seen as fetish CDers, effeminate men, or genderqueer (bearded guys in a dress).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
Frankly, I don't think that people who are not exposed to this community understand all the subtle differences between everyone. To them, I'm afraid that a man who chooses to present in a feminine manner (any feminine manner), if he is read as a man, is just odd and when you think about it, it is statistically odd. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that people are more understanding of and comfortable with what is familiar. The exception to this might be someone like Conchita Wurst (see below), and also transsexuals who come out in a publicly favorable manner, for example the high school teacher in the Northwest several years ago who transitioned and received support from her school administration, the students, and all those who commented favorably on the online news article. But, this person was not CDing, she was living full time as her target gender and was quite candid about her transition struggles, struggles that she experienced in her own community despite having some people support her.
Back to Conchita Wurst, she has garnered tremendous support in the media, enough to obtain a contract for the endorsement of Zeke headphones. Her (his?) presentation flies in the face of gender conformity, and for this reason a lot of people are championing the breaking down of gender barriers. This makes sense symbolically, just as it makes sense that androgynous wear has become so popular among the young. The gender gap between men and women in terms of education, career and the chores they take on in the home as they both raise their kids are narrowing immensely so the deconstruction of traditional gender appearance that symbolizes the breakdown of traditional gender roles is bound to be popular.
Still, it would be interesting to take a survey of the age brackets of the people who think that Conchita is supercool. I wonder if the balance might be tipped towards those in their 30s or younger, people who are more apt to deconstruct the value systems of the prior generation, although I dare say that part of Conchita's appeal might be that she is a public figure and not their brother, father, girlfriend, or boyfriend. People do tend to put things in boxes.
But to your point the TS community says, and rightfully so, that Conchita does not represent who they are since they obviously see no part of themselves as being male.
There are just so many variables when it comes to garnering general acceptance for gender diversity and it begins by recognizing that it is indeed diverse, and done for different reasons, and that people's understanding of it is still very limited.
Hmm, perhaps there wouldn’t even be a so called “cause” if every cross dresser passed as a female whenever (s)he went out. However, all culture is made up of unique individuals, and the individual essentially chooses to stand out, or blend in to whatever social arrangement they’re a part of at any particular time. This holds true in most Western civilizations, but it’s not a hard fast rule by any measure. Obviously one can walk down Hollywood Boulevard half dressed in either gender more comfortably than other parts of the country. In reality it seems to me that the “cause” is location specific so it comes down to your degree of comfort.
We have the right of self-expression, but a little common sense goes a long way. Its human nature to judge, and we all are (and we all do judge others to some degree). In the early 80’s my Mohawk, spiked collar, and combat boots weren’t very well received outside of my regular circles. So dependent upon a person’s personality definitely determines if he/she can take ridicule knowing they might receive a bit of slack for their appearance.
I wish to feel pretty and I do when dressed in woman’s clothing. But in lieu of Cinderella’s Magic Wand I can’t magically appear beautiful to the public’s eye. I’ll do my best to dress appropriate to my age and pass as a woman when I go out simply because I personally don’t like attention. My femme needs have an emotional aspect, which I protect. That being said, I encourage everyone to do whatever makes them feel good as long as they’re not doing it at the expense of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
There really isn’t a way to gage whether or not the cause is strengthened or weakened by a bearded man in a dress. Only time will tell, but logistics do matter.
I gotta go with The Butterfly on this one. It seems to me that the "cause" should be able to dress however you want, while keeping public standards and common decency in mind.....There's another term for those that Rachel mentioned downthread; "Also there has been big public backlash and Media Hype when 30 or so, in see through nighties were working the streets of a local shopping area at night."...But that term should not be used in polite company...Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly Bill
I have gone out, in my conservative neck of the woods, in a variety of mix and match modes, depending on the time and place and my mood. and if I've ever had any negative reaction, which I'm sure I have, I was not aware of it, because it was done behind my back and out of earshot.
Today, for example, I threw on a pair of leggings, my one pair of kind of cute low healed boots, a mid-thigh sweater, a touch of make-up(with fake glasses to hide my laziness) and some dangly costume earrings. Instead of a wig, I threw on a stylish cap and let what's left of my long hair flow, but rest assured, I didn't fool anybody!!! I went to the UPS store to drop off 8 packages. I went to the Tractor store to buy 50 pounds of dog food. I went to the nail salon to have my eyebrows waxed and a manicure with pale blue polish. I went to a thrift store, hoping to find a winter jacket, but ended up browsing through the book section and bought three books of various styles. i went to Home Depot and bought a couple of things to fix a bathroom faucet.
I then went to a super market to stock up on New Years supplies, and because I'd been having such pleasant exchanges everywhere I'd been, I made one last stop at a convenience store, where, as one 20-something female clerk was ringing up my purchases, the 2nd 20-something female clerk, who had just finished ringing up a customer came over and started raving about how cute my boots were. She made me swing my leg up onto the counter to show them to her co-worker(not an easy move at my age). She then swung her own booted foot up so that we could all see how much cuter my boots were than hers. I explained that it wasn't easy to find something cute in my size, let alone to be able to pull it off at my age. she asked where I'd gotten them and was thrilled to find out that the store was just around the corner and that she had a friend who worked there. She shot her fists up into the air and yelled "Score!" I then complimented her skirt, which was obviously designed so that a "plus-size" could wear it, and found out where she'd gotten it, and have my next shopping excursion already planned.
So I figure I did my part today to help however "The Cause" is defined, and can now take the rest of the year off....All 30-some hours of it...
The Butterfly, on the other hand, does his part 24/7, and for that, I, personally thank him!!
Wear what you want.
Wear it like you mean it.
Don't get all het-up if we "mean" different things to the best of our abilities.
The freedom "to do and to be" should be the cause of not just CDers, but of humanity as a whole....Whoops, got dangerously close to a soapbox there:-)
Stepping down now...
Jaye
you don't always HAVE to be a "bearded dude in a dress" ! ... one could be a dude in a dress sans beard!
still with the hairy legs and the like and no makeup no breastfroms or wiggy!
etc!
it takes all kinds!
also what about EXTREMELY femme gay men? ... they can dress super flamboyant / act totally camp and over the top (calling their gay male friends GIRLS and the like) ... just for fun!
but that's ok to most because "oh that's fine ... they're gay!" ... but do that and be straight and it's wrong? ... talk about stereotypes!
be whoever you want (within reason) but don't do it in a way that I don't understand / agree with!
(bah!)
Hi Kate,
Interesting premise . . . Now to be honest, I doubt very few of us TG/CD truly pass. Yes even those who seem to have won the TG lottery, as we all have little cues that give us away as guys on close examination. You may skirt (no pun intended) the line of battle but you will never survive first contact in my experience. Regarding CD rights well, I like to think of them as TG rights which are applicable to all within the spectrum regardless of how you choose to present. Now when it comes to rights, it would seem hypocritical of us (the TG/CD community writ large) to say "Hey I want the right to wear women's clothing, make-up, heels and whatnot" then turn around and wag our collective finger at people who don't fit that mould and say "Hey, you can't dress like that because it makes us look bad" . . . just saying that we would be guilty of hypocrisy by denying the same right to whole CD spectrum.
Will dressing one way over another hurt the TG cause? Not likely. It is more likely that the it will only affect the person dressed at that time and space. The sad truth is that people already have a preconceived notion about us (TG/CD) and regardless of how we are dressed, that belief will always be in the forefront of their mind and dressing appropriately, passing, blending or somehow not assaulting the sensibilities of haters, will change nothing. It would not matter if the CDer looked like a Vogue model, haters are not suddenly going to thing "Hey, now that I see a pretty cross dresser, I think all cross dressers are great." .
Hugs
Isha
Not buying not the idea that it's hypocritical to not support any CDrs right to dress any way that they want. It would be hypocritical if I applied a different standard to CDrs than GGs or anyone else. What we choose to wear at home reflects on no one...what we choose to wear in public does matter in how we are perceived, just as with anyone else.
Hi Kim,
I see this as a societal woe not just directed at CDers but people in general. Society determines what is appropriate and when someone steps out of the society constraint well then they get type casted until people learn to accept it. The hippie culture is a good example of how it flew in the face of societal conservatism and was vilified (drug users, promiscuous, the end of all decency) until it became mainstream and accepted. I personally dress to blend but if someone wants to dress in a micro mini skirt, stilettos and fish nets . . . that is their business and we don't have the right to be the moral conscience of the CD world . . . each of us have to find our own way.
Hugs
Isha
Yeah I still don't get this mentality
if applied to GGs ... "wow! that woman is dressed like a prostitute! ALL WOMEN ARE ****S!"
uh...??? anyone who thinks that way is already an idiot!
""You wouldn't worry so much about what others think of you if you realized how seldom they do." - Eleanor RooseveltQuote:
Originally Posted by kimdl93
My sincere apologies Kim, with the quote...I'm feeling more silly than confrontational...And since I first read Ms. Eleanor's quote in one of your signature lines, I've done a lot of research on her, and she was one incredible human being!!!...So I want to thank you for enlightening me about her!
No harm intended...
Jaye
You did.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
In the case of GGs with facial hair,"strong societal pressure" is not what it is for males who present female. People might talk behind Aunt Sophie's back about her faint post-menopausal mustache but she isn't going to be beat up, ostracized, or suspected of being a danger to children because she has it.
I did not describe a woman with normal feminine facial hair as a circus freak. A woman with far more than that amount, or a man with a normal beard would fall into that category. However, some women are quite sensitive about any facial hair at all and in their own mirrors they might see more hair than the world does. For them, societal pressure is within their minds and that is what puts food on my electrologist's table.
(Her TG clients put the Porsche in her garage! :))
I prefer to see it as less of a cause, more as leading by example. I live in northern Scotland, and was inspired to go out as a man in a skirt (with varying degrees of additional female clothes) by a man shopping with his wife and children in a supermarket in a small Highland town, while wearing a skirt. While people noticed him, they did not react. So, I followed his example in my own way.
People notice and criticise ANYONE who does not conform to their own standards. I move in circles that are usually regarded as open-minded and liberal - for example gay people are not regarded at all negatively, yet women in these circles will talk negatively about (not to) women who wear a lot of make up or like designer clothes instead of High Street, irrespective of how nice or accomplished these ladies are. The sort of morons (now I am being judgmental) who lurk on street corners all day shouting witless comments at passing strangers will fasten on ANYTHING and ANYONE.
Even those of us here who try at times to maximise our elegance and presentation when we go out and go to considerable trouble to look good cannot begin to imagine the pressure put on women to conform to glossy magazine ideals of what a woman should look like.
The reality is that the street lurkers will shout abuse at the fat, disabled, doddery or anyone who is 'fashion forward'. If a GG woman who could be in the pictures in the magazines walks past, these geniuses will shout other unpleasant things, and a woman who looks really good can have a very unpleasant time in the street. One of the problem areas I know of is a pub near my dressmaker, where I have had no problems with the smokers at the door, but my dressmaker, a lovely lady, has had all sorts of abuse from them. If you avoid such people and wear clothes that are not too revealing, then almost everyone will leave you in peace. They might be thinking things, but in the UK, at least, almost everyone goes out of their way NOT to react, for the simple reason they do not want to appear rude. If you do get stared at, it might actually be a stare of admiration - I know that when I see a cross-dresser I WANT to look and take in the scene in a positive way, but I know I can't, because that would make them feel uncomfortable.
If you go out, keep to the good areas and be (and look) confident - that is the best thing of all. If people notice you they are more likely to think "Good for you" than anything negative. I have found this at all levels of dressing from man in skirt to fully cross-dressed. If this works in the Presbyterian north of Scotland it should work in most places - but the American Bible belt may well be an exception. Most people are polite, and the others will be negative about almost anything - do not let this minority intimidate you no matter what the louts say.
Lastly, regarding this as a cause is a bit like being a missionary. You are putting pressure on others to think as you think. If you regard yourself as a passive example, it is their choice entirely to come round to your way of thinking, and it is so much more effective.
To be perfectly honest about this, personally my only "cause" regarding this is that I've always wanted to present as a woman and just do the best job I could. It's really a challenge to myself and that is where a lot of the initiative comes from. I wasn't born a woman, so what? I can prove to others that I can look like one if indeed I choose to. As far as picketing , sit-ins and participating in marches for CD "rights" it just isn't going to happen. Some of us have done so under the LGBT umbrella but that's as far as it goes. The nature of the CD "beast" is that our families and jobs can be seriously compromised if we interview(on film) on the 11:00 news and that is the bottom line. We have to determine our priorities.:)
Kate ,you perfectly described the gap between those that accept themselves and as a result wish to be themselves,and those that is really isn't important enough to add power to the TG lineup..It is all well and good until those same people talk about not being accepted ,yet have never put their face behind the cause.TG rights are also CD rights..accept that or not!
Since I don't go out I'm fine with not passing. I mentioned in another thread I do not take pictures as I look my very best in my imagination. Seriously, though, I am genetically blessed as a man. Broad shoulders, thick neck, huge arms and barrel chest. Put that in a sleeveless dress and well . . . .
I accept me for what I am.
I go out quite often to a local bar with my wife, it's a regular local bar not a gay bar, people treat me like anyone else, in fact we attract people, 9o% of the time my choice of dress is not even mentioned, when I am asked, I try to educate them about crossdressers. As you all know I don't wear a wig and do not try to pass.