Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

What about those TS that don't have the funds? Are not healthy enough or have conditions where the surgery could complicate their conditions or even death? Are they not truly TS. GRS is a complicated, major procedure that can and in many cases have major complications. Many of us that save and scrimp to pay for it may not have the funds to pay for revision surgery. And in some cases revision surgery can not correct the complication.

Transition is a very public serious process and the transitioner regardless of financial or social status can incur huge losses. Any individual that has a NEED to transition does so at their own peril.

It is too bad, that Jenner is unfortunately associated with the Kardashian three ring circus. Being connected to that, makes many people take Caitlyn as a circus show. And, the unfortunate car accident where a woman died, and Caitlyn is being sued bigtime now. I would guess there is tons of pressure and stress, now.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

she didn't have genital surgery and thats a sign that she is probably unsure of who she is and just may go back to being bruce at some point, not she couldn't after the full surgery.

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:facepalm: you really really said that? You said she HAD to have surgery to really be real? And you all wonder why some people hate others on these boards? You know you don't have to have surgery to be a transsexual right? You do know that some people take their time to get to the goal and they don't rush...right? You know I Haven't had surgery....right? :Angry3:Right now, I am so glad this is all online...you really have angered me.

Jenner's life is her own, her path is her own. She has opened up lines of communication that 1000's of us have tried for years but couldn't get the attention...well we now HAVE the attention. Your definition of sure isn't my definition of sure. :Angry3:

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

I don't know if I would have said it like that. Those planning on full transitioning are the girls that do believe they were meant to be born a woman but ended up in the wrong body. They take every measure to make it right, most certainly including genital surgery. If You truly believe that your a woman trapped in a man's body, why would you even consider the notion of keeping male genitals? Would you truly be able to claim that your a woman while doing so? Wouldn't that make you basically an surgery enhanced CD?



This of coarse in JMO, right or wrong.

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(edit, this is what happens when I don't keep reading so I have to add.)

That is exactly what you said. That she wasn't sure who she was because she didn't have surgery. That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard. There are a lot of transsexuals who are sure they are trans and they don't have surgery for a myriad of reasons. You honestly believe you have to have the physical body to be true? Maybe Jenner is satisfied with who she is at this point. If she isn't planning on having sex, maybe just the adjustment she has gone through is enough. Having a vagina doesn't make you positive that you are trans (or a woman). TSs can and do live their lives with no adjustments hormonal or physical and are perfectly happy. You claim they are unsure...

All these years on those boards and you still make that statement?

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

You know you don't have to have surgery to be a transsexual right?

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Yes, I also agree that for some it can't be afforded, is very dangerous, and some feel that only going so far is as far as they want to go but at the same time how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't. Since this is about Bruce, surely he can afford the surgery, so if he truly is a woman, then why not complete the process?

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Jenner's life is her own, her path is her own. She has opened up lines of communication that 1000's of us have tried for years but couldn't get the attention...well we now HAVE the attention.

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Keyword: ATTENTION. Is it good or bad though? How much of it is real? Let's look at it realistically, another round of facial surgery and the implants removed and she is back to bruce now isn't she? I am not by any means saying that this would happen but look at the family he has been part of now for too many years to count. Is it beneath them to do this just to get more attention? no, it isn't. The attention unfortunately isn't just on her, the K's are getting a lot of it too.

I am not trying to take from the seriousness of being transgendered here, dilute the struggles of it, or even say that she isn't being real but there are a lot of unanswered questions, she wanted the limelight, you got it. You don't get to be upfront and centered and still be a private person. So far most of what I have seen or read has been positive, the only problem I havve had with this whole thing is claiming to be a woman and this quote: Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

I am sure their are a lot more TG women out there that have done more for the community than Caitlyn has. To make such a claim should be backed up with some facts, other than posing for a magazine and having a big party for the last week, what has she done?!?!?!?!

What you aren't getting is transition a very public process. There was no way Jenner could have stealthily transitioned. Reversing facial reconstruction is damn near impossible and the outcome would be a train wreck. Do you even have any idea what is involved in SRS? The surgery is a major procedure that has the potential for dune serious complications. The after care and dilation regime is intense and your life and schedule revolve around dilating regularly 3-5 times a day for at least 6 months.

I know many TS in their mid to late 60's that absolutely identify and live 24/7 as women. They are not eligible for surgery because of underlying health issues

You may want to seriously educate yourself on TS issues before spouting off ideas that are contrary to how TS individuals identify. Also for many FTM the surgery is very, very extensive ( can you count to 100 grand) with no guarantee it will be successful. Are you going to tell them they are not male because they don't have a penis?

all I have to say is , all my best and love to Caitlyn, and long live the sisterhood , love hugs lynda

It's best to just understand and accept that some people will have different ideas than you and trying to correct or "educate" them is pointless and just leads to hard feelings. Real life is a lot like this web forum in that respect. Nobody ever changes anyone else's mind, the arguing just escalates until someone walks away or the moderators lock the thread.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

...how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't...

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You're wrong, and it is disturbing that there are some in our community that still believe that only a void between her legs defines a woman.

Down that same path lies the concept that only a women with a uterus is truly female which also leaves post-op transwomen in the starting gate. Do we really want to go down the path our enemies want us to follow?

YEA, what LORILEAH said for me also, good job Lorileah,,,Marshalynn

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

Yes, I also agree that for some it can't be afforded, is very dangerous, and some feel that only going so far is as far as they want to go but at the same time how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't. Since this is about Bruce, surely he can afford the surgery, so if he truly is a woman, then why not complete the process?

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First help me out, what do you consider yourself? Cross dresser? Genderqueer? Transsexual? Guy who likes women's clothing?

Do you not get the whole spectrum of being TG? Let's break this down (and I am so much trying to be polite OK?)

If we are just talking transsexuals, people who are female inside (I hate that phrase too...) but were born male physically.

There are a whole spectrum of people who are transsexual. Some never have hormones or surgery. They are content living their lives as they are. You don't consider them women? (Ok all the non-hormone, non-surgical TSs, this person doesn't think you are real...anyone want the first shot?)

Moving along. Regardless of how much money you have you may decide that hormones are all you need. No surgery. Even IF you want the surgery there is a lot besides money you have to consider. They just don't let you walk in the front door of the hospital and say..."Transition me" Caitlyn may very well be one in that category. You don't consider us who are in process women? I may not have surgery, you want to tell me...to my face...that I am not a woman? There is a process we have to go through...you don't think I'm real? You don't think I know who I am? You better rethink what you are thinking. If you consider yourself a TS and you are dead set that surgery HAS to be the end result, you are a poor example of being TS. You've been here HOW long? If you are TS then why haven't you had the surgery.

OK let's move along. Some people (there are some on here) who have partial surgery, maybe just removing the testes. It may not be a financial decision, but they are no less a woman?

Some have the complete surgery... yay! they are women! but...they were before the surgery

This really just angers me to no end. Your definition of who is a woman and who isn't.

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Keyword: ATTENTION. Is it good or bad though? How much of it is real? Let's look at it realistically, another round of facial surgery and the implants removed and she is back to bruce now isn't she?

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First who are YOU to judge what she is thinking or doing? Put yourself in her place. How can you say that she isn't real, that she isn't living exactly what she is saying? Granted she is a public figure but what you are saying is mean spirited and very likely false. YOUR doubts about her are irrelevant. Very few who have done what she has done reverse it

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I am not by any means saying that this would happen but look at the family he has been part of now for too many years to count.

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Awesome guilt by association...way to go. Exactly what many people think of YOU. You look like a drag Queen, so you must be gay and a drag queen...right? There are clowns are perverts that get tagged as T...your a TG...therefore... This is absolutely the worst logic I have seen. You don't consider her feelings, you tag her because the people she is around are media stars.

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Is it beneath them to do this just to get more attention? no, it isn't. The attention unfortunately isn't just on her, the K's are getting a lot of it too.

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Please please never be in a position where someone in your family does something that may be questionable...because by gawd, you must not be above that same behavior.

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there are a lot of unanswered questions, she wanted the limelight,

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Yeah exactly why she waited what 20 years to come out...there needed to be a spotlight? She was in that spotlight 40 years ago

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the only problem I havve had with this whole thing is claiming to be a woman and this quote: Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of.

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OK lets play people who have advanced the trans cause...go...LaVerne Cox...easy but wait! She's on TV too...maybe she did it to get the part...Janet MocK... good now you named two...but how many in the straight world BEFORE Jenner knew about her? Oh...she is an author...maybe she came out to sell books....keep going...Chaz Bono...celebrity. there are several here on these boards who have fought for gender equality...but NOW they are getting noticed because....?

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I am sure their are a lot more TG women out there that have done more for the community than Caitlyn has. To make such a claim should be backed up with some facts, other than posing for a magazine and having a big party for the last week, what has she done?!?!?!?!

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The old, "what have you done for me lately" syndrome. This isn't a sprint. What is she supposed to do...you hammer the message daily, you start to be ignored...

So, if I may ask...What have YOU done for the TG cause lately?

I hate to ask a question that may have already been answered in the Vanity Fair interview as for the specifics of Caitlyn Jenner, I have not had the chance to read the story yet but, just to add to the conversation of who qualifies as a woman part of this thread, who says Caitlyn isn't IN transition? She may be working through the steps and stages to qualify for bottom surgery. The doctors' and psychologists' hoops to jump through are many as has been shared by those who have been forward enough to allow the world in on the whole procedure. We may not know the facts behind all this and therefore shouldn't judge her as a wanting to have bottom surgery or not.

I do not think that her having not had or not wanting to have, if that be the case, the surgery qualifies or disqualifies her as a woman. I believe it is in the presentation that will make us most in the gender of our mental state. Most people are lucky enough to be born into a mental state that matches their physical gender, they are so lucky. Us who are somewhere trapped between genders are fraught with descisions for our entire lives asking questions about where we truely belong. Some are lucky enough to have the financial backing to change what does not match, some have family support to change. Many are stuck to quietly suffer because of lack of support and a personal desire to fit into society that has been so ingrained in our collective psyche that there is a long personal battle before they may finally acknowledge where they stand. Jenner may have been a part of this group because she is transitioning so late in her life.

As far as "wanting the lime light," I don't think this is truely the case. The very first time I had heard about Caitlyn being in transition was in a tabloid news show about her terrible car accident. She was plastered all over the screen with her longer hair and slight female appearance. There was more time dedicated to how she was dressed and carrying herself than there was about the horrors of the accident. I don't think she had asked to be outed. She was thrown into it by the tabloids. With this as the case, I do believe she has done more than any trans-people as of late. Did she do this deliberately? Maybe not. I do not think she was trying to be an advocate, spokes person or poster child for the entire trans-spectrum or any of it for that matter. However, I do believe she was trying to do damage control for her own personal life. Living with the K's and being a historical Olympic athlete surely has afforded her some PR people and all that comes with celebrity. Now, she could have tried to sweep it all under the rug, cut her hair and put the clothes away long enough for the tabloids to pick up their next victim to write about but instead she slapped them in the face and said,"Call me Caitlyn." THAT is the single biggest move done lately for all of us in the trans-spectrum IMHO. Was it damage control? Probably but it surely has opened the discussion about the trans community. Never has there been such a single event, person or time where the discussion of needs of this community been put on any lengthy enough discussion in the general public as there is now because of Ms. Jenner. Was her outing started as a deliberate act by Caitlyn? I think not. Nobody wants to be in a car accident as she was. Using hind sight, as she had made a few cameo appearances in her family's shows her appearance was changing slightly each time she was on the screen. She was probably working to a slow but calculated outing so that when it did happen it would have been a collective,"That figures." from the viewers and tabloids. I've used this approach with the few people that I'm out with, granted not as many as Caitlyn, and the "That figures." approach is very safe and the least disruptive method to revealing that I've found. This may have been her initial approach but the car accident pushed all that to the side.

hi girls, I just want to say we may bicker, disagree ,catcall , and bitch, between each other, but to win this battle, we have to do what every other group did . we must stand together to the outside world, I know we are all in different stages when it comes to cding, different views, but we have to be united front in our fight for the right just to be ourselves. we must stand with our sisters , who out there every day and for a lot of us who do it in sercret , or just part time. we have to stand united , the act of war divide and conquer. long live the sisterhood hugs peace, love Lynda

Since it is currently impossible for a human to change their biological state from male to female then this argument seems to be about becoming a woman in a conceptual sense in which case body modification is optional. I imagine the more accurately one can appear as a female the easier it would be to transition.

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Originally Posted by lynda

...but to win this battle, we have to do what every other group did . we must stand together to the outside world, I know we are all in different stages...
...we have to be united front in our fight for the right just to be ourselves. we must stand with allour sisters...

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Lynda,

You are correct.

I've said this very same sentiment a few other times in other posts and I fear that my longer reply to this tread posted earlier may come across as the contrary. That was not my objective. I would love for us to all stand together and face the world as one. The gay pride, lesbian movement, black minority of the '60s, women's sufferage in the U.S. movement all did just that. They stood together. My intent in my earlier post was an effort to support your point of view, even before you said it, not to divide the group. I wished to provide motive behind my remarks, such as when I mentioned Jenner was outed by the tabloids instead of grasping at fame.

The only thing I'd like to add is that a discussion like this can help us find our voice, a singular voice. Caitlyn may have joined us together, united us in a manner that Lynda has mentioned is missing in our plight.

-E

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Originally Posted by Eryn

You're wrong, and it is disturbing that there are some in our community that still believe that only a void between her legs defines a woman.

Down that same path lies the concept that only a women with a uterus is truly female which also leaves post-op transwomen in the starting gate. Do we really want to go down the path our enemies want us to follow?

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To carry that to the absurd, one would have to say that a woman who has had a hysterectomy is no longer a women.

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Originally Posted by lynda

hi girls, I just want to say we may bicker, disagree ,catcall , and bitch, between each other, but to win this battle, we have to do what every other group did . we must stand together to the outside world, I know we are all in different stages when it comes to cding, different views, but we have to be united front in our fight for the right just to be ourselves. we must stand with our sisters , who out there every day and for a lot of us who do it in sercret , or just part time. we have to stand united , the act of war divide and conquer. long live the sisterhood hugs peace, love Lynda

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It is such a simple concept, isn't it?

DeeAnn

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Originally Posted by ~Joanne~

What has she done that 1000's before her haven't done other than steal another 15 minutes of fame?

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She has more people discussing the issue. For or against doesn't matter, at least they are talking.

She delivered her first motivational speech as a transgender woman at the LGBT Youth Center in Hollywood on June 9, inspiring transgender youth to ‘live their truth’. Thus she's clearly not in it for the fame, besides, she was already famous.

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Originally Posted by ~Joanna~

Yes, I also agree that for some it can't be afforded, is very dangerous, and some feel that only going so far is as far as they want to go but at the same time how can any of them be considered a woman? or even lay that claim? They can't. Since this is about Bruce, surely he can afford the surgery, so if he truly is a woman, then why not complete the process?

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How about a big, heaping mug o' "It's none of your goddamned business why someone does or doesn't have surgery!"

I'm a woman right now. I live as a woman. My driver's license says "Sex: F" on it.

Is a man who has some type of horrible accident in a war and loses his penis as a result no longer a man? How about we talk about your genitals, ~Joanne~? Are they good enough? Are you are "real man?" Why are we talking about anyone's genitals? My preference is to not talk about mine at all unless dinner, drinks, and, you know the chemistry seems right between me and the other person...

In general, we don't talk about each other's genitals. I don't ask people I'm having lunch with, or who I meet in some casual setting about what's between their legs. But I get asked about mine all the freaking time. For an example:

Luncheon with an "Ally"

Do you have any idea how dehumanizing this is? Apparently, as a transgender woman, I am allowed no dignity. Apparently, I should just expect to lift up my skirt, so interested parties, even if they are merely curious, can inspect the groceries and decide if they are to their liking. Or if they are sufficient for me to be considered a "complete woman."

DAMN, Just Damn...

DeeAnn

Well, nobody can deny that Caitlyn has catalysed discussion everywhere and even in this community to a degree that I haven't seen before... :)

So, on the basis of 'All publicity is good publicity' this has to be good for the entire trans* community, right? I think so... And I think there is sooo much truth in this statement too:

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

That massive hissing sound you started hearing in the background after her interview with Diane Sawyer is the sound of hundreds of millions of male egos deflating, and they are not happy about it.

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As many of you have already agreed with this, I suspect it may even touch some of our community who identify as male in this way. But I do think Joanne should be cut a little slack too for expressing an opinion honestly here - it's easy to take some of these comments out of context without being prepared just to discuss them. So - for example - I think Joanne has a point about the relationship with the Kardashian's and their relationship with the media. Celebrities (of all types) and the weird, unreal media world they exist in DO NOT behave or are always motivated by the same things that 'regular' folk are - the fact that so many have had cosmetic surgery similar to Ms Jenner's (and in some cases radically more and worse) should indicate that they respond to a different set of motivators to most of us... and just as it is impossible to predict who amongst us may transition, it is as equally impossible to say that Ms Jenner would not transition back... I would agree it seems unlikely on current evidence, but it's happened before and no one can predict these things...

I think the discussion and visibility that Caitlyn is facilitating is a huge thing for the TS community, and also - to a slightly lesser extent - the TG or trans* community... we still have that issue of trying to explain just how we are similar and how we are different... but it's a net positive, even here in Blighty.

And keep it friendly here, please. :D

Katey x

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Awesome guilt by association

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Caitlyn has been in the news, every single day for quite some time now here in the UK. As indeed have the whole Jenner/Kardashian clan. They are, and remain, newsworthy because of the reaction in people they provoke. In the UK, the whole family isn't, by and large, looked on favourably, and many view all of them with disdain. Many people have an opinion about these kind of "reality stars", and they are largely frowned upon and ridiculed. Unfortunately, the whole "issue" with Caitlyn has added fuel to this perception that people have. Reading messages on newspaper websites (written in response to the latest Caitlyn article that (many feel) is being "pushed down our throats"), a common theme throughout is one that no longer wants to hear any more about it. Seen as a farce, a circus act that adds to the perception that the entire family is just a farce, a circus act. They are, simply put, regarded as a family who, for many, should not be taken seriously.

As a consequence, Caitlyn is also seen by many as someone who should not be taken seriously either.

While I agree completely with the point you are making Lorileah, unfortunately this "guilt by association" is very real in people's minds, and in turn doing us no favours whatsoever. Caitlyn, through no fault of her own, it can be argued, is doing more harm than good. And it saddens me deeply that that is the case. At least here in the UK. (I can not, and will not speak for the effect it is having in other countries).

One thing I have thought about - given that this website regards itself as the number one community for crossdressers, families, and friends, and has a large section devoted to transsexuals, has Caitlyn ever ventured here?

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

As a consequence, Caitlyn is also seen by many as someone who should not be taken seriously either.

While I agree completely with the point you are making Lorileah, unfortunately this "guilt by association" is very real in people's minds, and in turn doing us no favours whatsoever. Caitlyn, through no fault of her own, it can be argued, is doing more harm than good. And it saddens me deeply that that is the case.

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How can they take us less seriously than they do? We are not human beings from the perspective of big chunks of the people on planet earth. We are frequently assaulted and murdered simply for who we are. Who the hell cares whether or not they take us seriously? That isn't our most pressing problem, although it is a problem. They need to see us as human beings - or that at least we exist in some form other than highly murderable drug addicts and prostitutes.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

One thing I have thought about - given that this website regards itself as the number one community for crossdressers, families, and friends, and has a large section devoted to transsexuals, has Caitlyn ever ventured here?

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There is simply no way to know.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

How can they take us less seriously than they do? We are not human beings from the perspective of big chunks of the people on planet earth. We are frequently assaulted and murdered simply for who we are. Who the hell cares whether or not they take us seriously? That isn't our most pressing problem, although it is a problem. They need to see us as human beings - or that at least we exist in some form other than highly murderable drug addicts and prostitutes.

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I care.

You say that it isn't our most pressing problem. Yet you also say that we are frequently assaulted and murdered for who we are. I, personally, can not think of a more pressing problem than that. I don't want to be assaulted or murdered for who I am. If we are taken seriously, what do you think - that we are more likely to be assaulted/murdered or less likely to be assaulted/murdered? More likely to be seen as human beings or less likely to be seen as human beings?

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

There is simply no way to know.

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Not knowing something is usually what causes me to wonder about something. Hence why I wonder whether Caitlyn has ever ventured here or not.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

You say that it isn't our most pressing problem. Yet you also say that we are frequently assaulted and murdered for who we are.

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Oh, being not considered as human beings the same as others is our most pressing problem, there is no doubt of this and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy. I don't see how Jenner's reality show background affects this negatively - we're already at rock bottom, so there's no where to go but up.

The reason I think Jenner has been helpful is because as sincere and amazing as some of the trans people who've come out and gained some notoriety are, none of them remotely have the ability to gather attention like Jenner has. People are talking about us in ways that wouldn't have happened for a very, very long time. More importantly, this is creating opportunities for many of us to speak to a public that would otherwise ignore us. I've been on the TV news once, and in the paper several times now. There are hundreds of others us who people want to hear from. And I can assure you, prior to Jenner, that wasn't the case. Not on this scale.

I'm sorry to disagree with you. I'm not trying to be argumentative and I understand how you feel. Your concerns are valid.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Oh, being not considered as human beings the same as others is our most pressing problem, there is no doubt of this and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

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I did misunderstand, so thank you for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

It's just that we are already at the bottom of the societal hierarchy.

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I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

Now, I'm not for one moment suggesting that the negative reaction some people have towards Caitlyn is going to result in us being ranked lower down than such abhorrent individuals, and so I do completely agree that any negative reaction towards Caitlyn isn't going to result in us being regarded any lower than we already are. My point was more that Caitlyn's exposure in the media isn't, for many people (at least here in the UK) resulting in us being regarded in a better light. I want to make it clear that I don't blame Caitlyn (the indvidual person that she is) for how other people react - I'm merely trying to put across that the exposure we are getting through Caitlyn isn't necessarily doing us any favours either.

You say that Caitlyn has been helpful because of the ability she is able to garner. I would say that this is a fine line - as I said in my first post in this thread, people here in the UK are sick of hearing about it, and are stating that they regard the whole Jenner/Kardiashian clan as a media farce, and Caitlyn, and her situation is being regarded as nothing more than an extension of that. Bruce Jenner may have been an Olympian athlete, but today he is known more for being the father and step-father of a reality-tv-obsessed-family. Had he been known (and as famous) only as the former, as opposed to the latter, then it could have been a whole different ball-game in garnering more respect for us.

Of course the media now wants to hear from us - but I am rather cynical in that respect. We're being listened to, not because of what we have to say, but through our "association" with Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. The media don't want an insight into our minds. They want an insight into Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner's mind. We've become topical because of an individual who is associated to a family that garner column inches. It will be forgotten about by the media soon enough, and in the meantime, people's opinion despite all this media attention will not change.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

I disagree. Pedophiles and rapists rank much lower down the scale than we do. We're a mere snigger (either behind our backs or to our faces) in the street to most people in comparison.

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We don't hurt anyone. And yet the state where I live attempted to pass four different laws that would have imprisoned me for using a public restroom - effectively barring me from using public spaces at all.