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That's where I would find some room for confusion. If a transitioner as used in the community excludes those other than full time, then the term excludes those somewhere in process. Fine, I'll accept the community's conventions. But, isn't that a bit like excluding those who are en route from the definition of travelers?
Many of us here have put ourselves out there in big ways to help others through this. Usually in ways that are not seen on these public boards. I think most of us are very empathic or else we would not do that, or even still be here at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle789
Most or all of your accusations and arguments are baseless.
Not quite. For example that leaves out the Female to Male transsexuals. Where you may be getting confused is that if you can say with absolute certainty "I am not a woman" then you are not a Male to Female transsexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooke Smith
A large number of transitioners will have started with the certainty of who they are, but others will have started either not being sure or else knowing better who they are not than who they are.
Absolutely! Transition is a disaster if you are not transsexual. It is the wrong answer to the wrong question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooke Smith
Sure, you can call anyone who is enroute from anywhere to anywhere a traveler. If you want, you can even call (probably jokingly) a crawling baby going from one room to the next for the first time a traveler. "My little traveler! Isn't she adorable!"Quote:
Originally Posted by kimdl93
If you view this from the standpoint of a type of person – something that characterizes that person generally and permanently – it assumes a different aspect. You could call a person who went to the Poconos once but otherwise stays home a traveler. But if you were trying to convey something essential and important about that person's character, activity patterns, interests, etc., it wouldn't be very useful to do so.
Terms that lack this essentialism aren't helpful here. Consider people like me who are doing "transition stuff." Guess what – a lot of people doing the things I am doing don't actually end up transitioning. Some intend to, some do not. That's fine, but it doesn't address the credibility issue that has been flying around here. We need some term that conveys the essential element. Personally, I would have been fine with "full-time." It still amazes me that anyone – and I do mean anyone – could interpret that as having a part-time aspect. Yet over and over we get a version that reduces to "full-time, except [insert context here]."
I have been involved in science my entire life and in sociological and psychological research projects regarding trans* identities over the past couple of years, which has led to an absolute reliance on formal definitions of terms in order to accurately describe lived experience and interactions to researchers. The concept of transition is applicable to so many aspects of human existence, to carve out our own special definition of it and ensure accurate usage with any newcomer or changing situation is unrealistic.
For me, and I say this fully expecting you, the reader, to interpret this to mean only what I say; my transition will be complete when I say it is.
I do not subscribe to society's need for a gender binary, but I do fit within it. I have specific, defined and personal goals which when achieved, will confirm to me that I have transitioned to my satisfaction.
Personally, I largely agree with the definitions in effect when I acknowledged myself. I really don't care, as any person can have so many labels they become pointless, but I no longer consider myself transgender per se, because I live as the gender I am. I do however consider myself transexual, because I have not, as of yet, changed physical sex. And to sum up, forever more, I will be transexual/transgender (trans*) in society's view, but in my view? Woman. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.
So this is where I get confused by all this. I am not in the process of transitioning in the sense that most here are transitioning. However, there are days I identify as a woman, wish to be seen as a woman and work/live as a woman. However there are days I still identify as a man, wish to be seen as a man and work/live as a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan37
Cheers
Isha
In some ways you are transitioning. Let's put that idea aside. You are exploring and finding your balance. Hopefully that's as far as you need to go. You're quest to live authentically can be in many ways harder than full transition. It's confusing to those you are close to and those you work with. If it's working for you that's all one can hope for. It may be enough or it may not be enough. GD is a condition where things can be OK until they are not. My comments were directed mainly to those that say they are full time except for .... Insert whatever.
You are also presenting at work how you identify any particular day. You are doing it from a position of rank and authority. There are repercussions from non compliance if subordinates would would not receive in ornate business. Canada is a bit more progressive than the US. Not sure what effect that may have. Even though it's confusing to you. You are experiencing an intensity of your GD where not expressing who you are can be debilitating in your daily life. Especially at work. It hasn't reached the level of intensity where you need to start burnings, change your name or gender. It's a tough place to be. If you can make it work for you. And for now it appears you are.
It is soooo interesting that Isha and LeaP seem to have a profound grasp of what the evil TS girls are always yapping about.
They have different goals, as stated but they are consistently on the side of authenticity.
Isha is a known nutcase because she has done the hardest part, which is come out at work, but apparently she liked that experience so much she wants to do it over and over. ;-)
Is she transitioning? I don't know but she certainly isn't abiding any secrets. She is right out there living her life however she feels it. No closet. To my mind that makes her every bit as legit as any transitioner.
LeaP on the other hand, is in the process of a transition which she is frantically trying to manage. I don't know if she's in the middle, or where her comfort zone is right now, but she is certainly able to convey my position on this issue pretty damn well. Again the reason why she 'gets it' is because she understands that transition absolutely requires complete observance. She is owning her situation and honestly dealing with it the best she can. Like Isha, everything she writes has the unmistakable ring of truth. Of authenticity. She in fact is proof that there is plenty of room for people that are in various stages of transition in the TS forum. All I know about Lea is what she has written in the public forum. They only thing she could do to ring the BS meter is to make comments about roads she has not yet traveled. If she does, those of us who have been there will notice that her accent isn't quite right.
Wherever you are on this journey, why not just be honest and upfront about it? Why try to claim steps not trodden? You are who you are, just be proud and be you.
I'm thinking a lot of it is both validation and a sense of being included. It's just so cool to be transsexual. Maybe we should just encourage to jump right in. The waters fine.
Isha and Lea, for their authenticity, are role models to me. I have personally tried to have that kind of honesty and integrity, and hope that someone will (politely) call me out if I start spouting BS.
As to the original point... I'm still way too early in my process (which may or may not include full transition at some point) to be able to call what I'm doing "transition" given the definition provided here. I am going through a process of change... this much is certain. Is it destructive? Integrative? Only time will tell.
I began to transition before I knew I was transitioning. Others noted that I had adopted female characteristics or gender markers, (like subtle shades of lipstick or mostly clear nail polish), and pointed them out, usually telling me not to. Luckily some key people here, intervening behind the scenes started to run interference for me, talking to others and telling them to behave in regards to me. It was some time until I actually started living full time, I don't know how many months.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShayLeigh Dominique
Beth-Lock, thank you. I feel less strange and alone for that.
I don't know what the future holds at this point. I'm diving into the deep end, for once trusting my intuition to guide me through. It may be a mistake, but I am a big girl (boy?) and I can accept the consequences of my actions and choices, not all of which will be expected or positive. Where will I end up? I don't know, but am filled with hopeful curiosity what that destination will look like and I plan to enjoy the journey there. Who will I be? Hopefully a new, improved, whole me; if not free from worry, at least honestly confident and faithful.
I am glad for I have what support I have in my workplace... those who I have not "clued-in" suspect something is going on with me, but don't care what it is because it doesn't change who I am to them. I am their administrative superstar, everything else is irrelevant. For that reason alone they would support me, it doesn't hurt that I am loveable (if quirky) to boot.
So, am I transitioning? Depends on how you define it
So, is it about shedding an unwanted image, or assuming a desired one? It may seem like a trivial difference, but it really isn't. One is an act of destruction, one is an act of discovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
I'm never going to get my hackles up an anyone here over this. We all walk our own paths. I don't care (as I have said before) if you are Earnest Borgnine in a dress. Nobody should be making you feel bad for how you feel about how you fit in the world. You have every right to be out there as much as anyone else does.
Last year, I went to my first CD/TS event. I went in a wonderful dress, high heels, jewelry and pretty makeup along with a trimmed beard and no forms. When I walked into the event hall I saw a number of people do the 'whisper-whisper' thing to their mates. This isn't a High-School popularity contest. If we have the nerve to step out there and represent our segment of culture, then they/we deserve support. There is no litmus test.
- MM
That's because I am one of those evil TS girls…Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
First, thank you. And ShayLeigh, I'm no role model. I try not to stray too far from my own experience. Why some do when others do not, I'm not sure. In my case – and I'm speculating – it might be because I had such a strong sense of losing myself and my marbles at the beginning of all this. Very little of what I thought of myself, my motives, my coping mechanisms and behaviors, and all the rest has survived intact. It is often said transition is a process. It is for everyone in the physical tasks that must be undertaken. For me it has also been a long process of psychological and emotional change.
Where am I? Getting close to pulling the pin in that charming little device in my hand. (See avatar.) I am out to most of the people who matter at work, right up to the board level. My wife knows the transition is imminent. I have had FFS and hair consults over the last couple of weeks. I informed my daughter two days ago (another story in itself… All good). And the rest of the children are coming shortly. My wife and I are doing the very best we can to work through things together.
Hormones aside. They helped me mentally. Not so much physically. I didn't go full-time until A. Substantial facial hair removal. B. Legal name change and gender marker. The latter was absolutely the biggest event of my transition. It was validation to me and those around I was serious about transitioning. FFS had to wait another 18 months. Living full-time with male facial features was a valuable experience for me. I don't particularly recommend it. FFS introduced an entirely new level of comfort.
To answer Jorja's question. There are a couple factors I can identify. The physical procedures are a huge distraction to me. I'm scheduled for SRS. In Nov. I am about 10 grand short of funds. I still don't have preop clearances.
Living life as a tranny while challenging is easy. Integrating and being accepted as a woman much more challenging. My first year I looked like a male facially. It was hit or miss how I was gendered. It wasn't as bothersome to be gendered male. Even while wearing dresses and heels. Second year had facial reconstruction. Being gendered male was non existent for the must part. Casual encounters are one thing. The issue I have is being accepted as female. Yeah those I interact with are respectful, use the correct pronoun for the most part. But I'm treated differently by both men and women. It's like I'm an outsider. Once they figure you're Trans it changes the dynamic. I'm sure given 5 years down the road things will smooth out. I obviously still exude male clues that I will need to identify and correct. My ex has been pointing them out as they occur. Work can be problematic. I run my own Electrical/ Mechanical company. Voice in the office and field is a challenge. Especially when I get irritated.(I have a guy Mike working for me that is friends with Tom another Electrical Contractor I'm friends with. Tom and I were talking and he said that Mike told him that he inadvertently brought Steve back to the office. I thought it was pretty funny. But it illustrates the challenge. I've had a friend tell me I don't work like a girl. Well I don't know how to work like a girl. If something needs doing. I do it. I guess the way I carry myself and my hand coordination show 40+ years of experience.
Nigella, I know that you and others who post here regularly know what I'm about to say but bear with me. I'm offering detail for the benefit of others who read this thread.
In discussion forums, words are the only thing we have to convey our ideas. So I find it helpful to examine the literal meanings.
Transsexual: Crossing (trans) from one sex to another. Sex is physical, therefore it involves physical modifications in order to appear as a woman (for MtFs): beard removal, hormones, and if they are not sufficient, BAs, FFS, and optionally SRS (we'll leave the debate about this for another thread). I've taken it that MtF TSs have always been women and it is a matter of changing the male sexual characteristics to match one's sense of gender identity to the degree that medical science will allow.
Transgender: Crossing from one gender to another. The use of this term by transsexuals has always baffled me, since I take it that TSs do not change their gender. They change their sex to match their gender.
Transitioner: For MtFs, the act of transitioning from male to female: physically, socially, legally. For the physical transition, not everyone needs or can get all the surgeries, people come in all shapes, sizes with varying physiognomies. But if the result at the end of the transition period is the appearance of a woman such that people stop seeing a man when looking at a TS, this is a complete physical transition. Full social transition has occurred when everyone in a TSs life knows her as a woman, they do not assume she is a man based on her presentation if they do not know that she is TS. If a TS does not tell some people she is transitioning during the period when the body is undergoing changes, then a full social transition has not occurred. And legal transition is self-explanatory.
A transition is a process with a beginning and an end. If at the end of a transition, barring personal prejudice, everyone (family, friends, coworkers, government agencies) takes the MtF TS to be a woman, then she is no longer a transitioner; she is a woman. If the end point is partial transition (HRT while still maintaining the ability to portray the self as a man on occasion which also implies a partial social transition), then we can't say that the process results in a transition from male to female, no matter what is the sense of internal gender ID.
Discussion:
I've observed in some of the threads here that partial-transitioners want to be recognized as the full-fledged women they feel they are by other members of the community. It makes sense they would want this, since they do need validation and they are depriving themselves of full recognition from the people in their lives by not fully transitioning physically, socially and legally. I think that everyone, full and partial transitioners, will agree that full and partial transition are not the same. I also think that everyone will agree that full and partial transition are both difficult. I hope that most people will not want to say that full transition is more difficult than partial transition, since the degree of difficulty depends on too many variables to list.
Contention occurs, I believe, when it comes to assigning or defining a partial-transitioner's gender identity. Some people feel that partial-transitioners (the people whose end point it is to partially transition) are not the women they feel they are because they have chosen to not fully transition. While other people are happy to accept a person's stated gender ID no matter the appearance, presentation and legal markers.
So the question as to whether gender is defined by how one feels vs. what one chooses to do about it is fourfold:
1. Does the degree of transition indicate a person's internal sense of gender identity? The partial-transitioner will say no because she feels she is female no matter what she does physically, socially, or legally.
2. Among people in the know, namely the members of this community, does the degree (the end point, not a point in the middle of the process) of transition indicate someone's internal sense of gender identity? I fear there will continue to be debates about this.
3. Among people not in the know, namely the people in the partial-transitioner's life who do not know that she does not identify as a man, does partial transition indicate her gender identity? Yes. The unknowing people will continue to think of the partial-transitioner as a male because obviously they have no indication that she is transitioning.
4. Among the selected few who do see the partial-transitioner present as a female and again barring personal prejudice,
A) Strangers will likely take it that she is transitoning. Acquaintances and people on the street do not know the differences among community members and they generally do not stop to analyze this in great detail.
B) Some of her friends and family will take it she is a woman or they will respect her stated gender identity,
C) While other friends and family will persist is seeing her as a man because they know that she has not fully transitioned.
To MM- I would say it is not so much destruction, more like molting, shedding... peeling away old layers that are no longer useful or suitable for what is underneath. CDing is an act of discovery of sorts. In many cases, mine at least, it is sharing my own gender norm with myself.
To ReineD- I have often had a discussion with my wife about our blended family, and that both of us have helped each other because we have a more complete view of each other in regards to each others kids. For each other, we are on the outside looking in, without an emotional connection to the past, but yet an emotional connection to the present and with a strong desire to make life better for all. It presents a clearer picture when viewed this way. You seem to have this view of the entire transgender spectrum. You truly have missed your calling by not being a transgender counselor, but I suppose your efforts here likely make up for that.
We all want validation for who we are as people. A partial transitioner, or any MTF that does not go through all or any transition yet still has some internal identity that is female, or feminine even is not any less female or feminine when they or how they identify and or present. It is real for them, for whatever percentage of time they feel it. It is real for them even if they still feel a connection to male or masculinity as well. They are still transitioners even if they partially transition, they still have a female identity with the whatever percentage is female. Because it is not a complete transition or identity does not make it any less real, or valid.
Hi Reine,Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
While I don't consider myself a partial-transitioner or transitioner in the sense of how it is defined, I think I can speak to your point 1. Now bear in mind this is my understanding of myself and not an broad statement of how others feel as I cannot speak to anyone else's experience.
To be honest, I really don't know where I am in all of this so have settled on "gender fluid" until I work through everything. The one constant which I discuss often with my therapist is a sense of body dysmorphia. As I progressed through therapy discussion turned to HRT which I declined and still do to this day. I am happy with my body and to be honest when I identify as a woman I don't look in the mirror and wish to correct. It is my body and while it may be physiologically male, it is mine and does not define how I perceive myself as a man or a woman. Yes, it is far easier to align myself as a man with my current physiology than it is to align myself as a woman but right now there is no strong pull to align my physiology to match my gender identity or sex as a woman. This does not mean I do no suffer any body dysmorphia as I do have issue with body hair and facial hair which I am slowly having removed/reduced.
Nobody will ever mistake me physically or phenotypically for a woman and I am fine with that. Right now make-up is a necessary evil to hide beard shadow but believe me, once abated, make-up will be minimal unless the occasion calls for it. Clothing gives me a sense of gender alignment but it is not the beat all to end all. I can feel like a woman wearing a ratty t-shirt and shorts doing yard work as easy as I can feel like a woman wearing a skirt suit and heels at work. The clothes do not define me, it is my internal sense of self which defines me irrespective of how I am dressed, what I am doing or how I am presenting. When it comes right down to it the "kid ain't pretty and she is fooling nobody but she is fine with that because she knows who she is" :)
WRT you point 4 . . . well given my personal circumstances I think I can confirm those points as I live them each day I am presenting as a woman. Most strangers I assume (again I am not really sure) will think I am transitioning unless they have some insight to the whole spectrum gig in which case they may not make assumptions. Most of my friends and work colleagues who see me as both a man and a woman at work will always attempt to use the appropriate pronouns but may stumble now and then (no harm no foul in my book). Others (including one very close friend) will only ever use "male pronouns" because they are no comfortable thinking of me as a woman perhaps because they see that skirting both genders is a declaration that I am still a man at the core of my personality . . . or they just cannot make that leap.
Cheers
Isha
So much for the term transitioner defining someone fully transitioning and living 24/7. Another term appropriated to mean anything anybody wants it to mean. How pointless it all is.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
The purpose of language is to facilitate communication and definitions are an integral part of that process.
We define the world around us and generally speaking, the simpler an object or concept, the less disagreement there is.
What I see here is a group of highly intellectual individuals discussing a concept that is not only complex but highly specific.
This tends to breed confusion and disagreements.
But most importantly, this creates duality.
There is nothing inherently wrong with duality because the universe exist by contrast. We need both object A and non-object A in order to recognize them both.
In the case of 'transitioning'/'transitioned'/transitioner', we need the both the concept and the non-concept in order to recognize both. But the moment we attempt to define what is, we are also inevitably defining what isn't.
The real problem is not just trying to get people to agree with the definition of "what is", but also the definition of "what isn't".
Some might feel validated with these definitions, but others won't. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about it.
But we hardly bog ourselves down with exhaustive definitions when conducting our daily affairs, why do we get to caught up with this? I mean... how red must red be to be considered red? How good must good be to be considered good? How human must a human be to be considered a human? Do we have to remind ourselves everyday that we are human?
I think most of us would agree that in 50 years time, for those of us who are still around, we would look back on today and laugh at how silly we were arguing about something so ephemeral as 'definitions'.
The forum is full of paradoxes where one could stress on 'definitions' one day but encourage 'authenticity' the next. The former requires some kind of consensus, while the latter emphasizes on individuality.
Confusing? You bet.
This debate will never end as long as somebody out there is yearning for public validation or avoiding public invalidation. Me included. So yeah... Go figure.
Love,
S
What is the problem with having a term that means you are living full time, name change, 24/7 etc. It does not invalidate anybody's experience. It not elitist. It just aids understanding. It should not have to become a big emotional issue. Unfortunately every time this is done people become offended and appropriate it.
It's totally ridiculous and I don't understand why people need to keep redefining stuff?
A guy is in training to be a mountaineer, if someone came along and said "I just walked over a hill, I must also be a mountaineer"!
We would just laugh at the silliness of it, yet somehow on here that's what happens all the time.
We know what Transition is, a Transitioner is someone doing Transition.
Where does partial transition come in?
You either do it or you don't, if it's partial it isn't fulfilled, if it isn't fulfilled how can it be transition?
exactly..
hey all, its in your heart...If its really important to you to call your weekend adventures,nightime dressing.. or your HRT regimen part time transition, go for it...we'll keep chatting about it..
but I feel for you.... that's your nature begging for validation that it won't get..
this is not an attack, its not a "differing opinion", its the way it actually is... and you are better off dealing with that rather than talking about words, labels studies or theories..
btw... ts women that transition for real don't always get validated either...one thing that makes our validation much harder is the tg umbrella and all the prevarication about tg/ts and transition...
It's generally accepted as an umbrella term that covers a range of lived experiences from transsexual to cross dressing to gender fluid and genderqueer folk. Anything that transgresses society's traditional expectations of assigned gender seems to fit under the umbrella term.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I happen to like it because it's inclusive and because it's more indicative of the fact that, when it comes to most people, my medical decisions are none of their business. What matters to them is how I interact with people socially. My gender hasn't changed from my perspective but it certainly has from an external viewpoint! Even from my own perspective, how people gender me has changed.
As for the discussion? I believe in self-determination when it comes to gender. If we can dictate to someone what their gender identity is based on their lived experience, then society at large can do the same to all of us. That's not a tradition that has worked out well, historically speaking, for transgender folk. Live and let live.
Becky, what if the guy who walks over a little 200 ft. hill has severe physical limitations from birth. Inside, he dreams of scaling mt. Everest at 20 thousand or whatever ft. it is, but the reality of his physical condition is that it took him just as much effort training and devotion to scale a little hill. Not little to him, and the accomplishment is no less for him. In his head, he is a mountaineer, and he would have scaled mt. Everest had he not been physically limited. Why can we not consider him to be a mountaineer?
I am seeing quite a paradox here. On the one hand, those here who are identifying themselves as TS, or just women who are in the process of physically transitioning to be genetic women want and need full validation to be the gender they feel internally. Most who identify this way feel they were born with a disability- being in the wrong body. Not everyone will or can make the change physically. Maybe they have just had a horrible run with finances, or maybe their physical body is not strong enough to endure it. Does this make them any less female internally?
I really do not see what the problem is with the term transitioner whether they are partially or fully. They still are. partially or fully is descriptive of how they are, or to what level.