The Changing Values of Society

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Originally Posted by Lydia Hamilton

Fathers,uncles, and actors were our primary role models.

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And is it any wonder so many people have a skewed vision of reality?

My father was a remote, irritable man who left home when I was aged 10 without saying goodbye to me. My uncle was even more remote and although he showed me occasional kindness, and I wanted desperately to be like him - tall, handsome, rich and successful - he might as well have been a movie star. As for the actors, I was very impressed by Tony Curtis and Roger Moore in The Persuaders- two playboys who formed no permanent relationships and swaggered around the world hitting people, driving very fast and drinking large quantities of champagne.

While I have done my best to emulate these latter qualities, apart from the hitting people, and I have managed to have several long-term relationships, and to own my feelings and emotions, I feel like what growing up I've done has been despite the early male influences in my life, not because of them.

Today it seems many young people ignore the father and uncle and go straight to the actors for their role models. When you look at the popularity of day-time Australian soap operas and re-runs of Friends, it's hardly surprising that narcissism, conceit, superficiality and plain stupidity govern so much of young people's decision making.

That many young men wear make up and dress androgynously is taken completely for granted- after all, it's what so many pop stars do- and as a result crossdressing is not the 'thing' it was for previous generations. I feel sure that within a generation it will be as commonplace as divorce and single-parenthood have become now.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

There is no market reason for the news media to give a crap about us. Remember that it's a $$$ driven industry.

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That is very true. However, crossdressers sometimes spend a lot of money on shoes, clothing and other necessities. Perhaps some shops, that are very crossdresser friendly such as Payless Shoes, could benefit by emphasizing that fact in their advertising and in their shops.

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Originally Posted by bcpmax

I don't see the public's acceptance of transsexual identities, whatever that looks like, as equivalent to the public's acceptance of crossdressers identities.

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Very nicely stated. You have an understanding of the point I am making.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

Sometimes miss, the only time a cross dresser makes headlines around here, it's in a negative manner. Actually, I would not even characterize the media reports as cross dressing. It's usually about a pervert disguising himself in ladies' bathrooms to "up skirt" women. There's plenty of positive coverage of gays and lesbians and transsexuals. I would also conjecture most of the cross dressing MtF community intentionally limits their cross dressing to non-work venues and activities, i.e., recreation, while gays and lesbians and transsexuals need to be out and seen in the community.

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Unfortunately, the first part of that quote, is very true. In my area, we have had several instances of what the media referred to as crossdressing, by rather unsavory individuals. One was a bank robber, who made his getaways wearing a female disguise, while another much worse incident involved a high ranking military man, who broke into homes and raided women's lingerie drawers for undergarments, took selfies of himself wearing them, and amassed a vast collection of stolen bras and panties. His activities escalated to the point of tying up female victims who were home and eventually the murder of two local women before he was caught. Your last sentence spells out the distinction between crossdressing and the other groups seeking protection.

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

The young people are willing to accept that they are being viewed as "queer" by the ignorant and intolerant. ..

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I cannot understand the willingness of many to accept the use of terms like "queer" and "sissy". They have such negative connotations, that they can only bring the scorn of those outsiders who hear them being used. I guess I am just old-fashioned.

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Originally Posted by Tashee

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Washrooms are the primary problem I see for crossdressers. I can see both sides of the issue, as my wife has made her feelings abundantly clear. This is a case of the rights of one group infringing upon the comfort and rights of another, in both directions. The solution, of course is either single user washrooms, or a third gender neutral washroom. We have accommodated the handicapped by having most washrooms required to be accessible, and many establishments have neutral restrooms for families and provide places for changing babies. It is expensive, yes, but everyone complied with the rules for the handicapped and families. It may be as simple in some cases as building a partition in the men's room and installing a separate door. The facilities may already be there.

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Originally Posted by Mink

I think the elephant in the proverbial broom closet (as it was!) is that there are soooooooooo many fetish CDers... and no one wants to admit this? (esp. here! but also in the larger TG narrative world!)

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Wow! You paint a very bleak and scary picture. If one stops to think about it, virtually all manner of sexual activity could be viewed as driven by fetishism. We get turned on by whatever, and that is all that is necessary. But you have a valid point, in that the emphasis on identity, specifically gender, as being the basic concern of the TG movement, tends to dismiss any other reasons or explanations for cross gender expression, leaving the activity open to being considered freakish and undesirable. In any event, the solution can only come from publicity.

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Originally Posted by pamela7

There's Caesar's old adage "divide and conquer". There is only people power by uniting, and that means being part of the LGBT and being thankful to the LBG for tagging us along. Further, uniting means being out together, the closeted nature of the CD world is what disempowers us more than the actions of normals. .

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Your analysis is correct, but with one omission and that is diversity. The primary consideration is the objective. In Caesar's case it was "conquer". In our case, in a very broad sense, it is gaining understanding and equality. But what is it we are asking the public to understand? That is where diversity enters into the picture. Members of the general public can march alongside the TG activists to help them gain understanding and equality. Nobody will assume Joe Public is TG; he is just there to support the cause. So too can CD's march alongside, but for unity they are being tagged as part of TG. However their objectives could be quite different. Because of unity, the TG goals are being promoted, but not the diversity. To bring up diversity, the basic message would become blurred, and so crossdressers are left being misunderstood. If they object, they are considered non-supportive. So they return to the closet.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

There are many of us in the "T" part of LGBT who advocate for crossdressers. I certainly do.

Sometimes we're slowed down because we're currently rolling under the wheels of the bus where the GL's throw us all too often.

More visibility by CDs would help your cause.

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But therein lies one of the problems for the CD. For many, visibility is not something they desire. Even those who venture out, do so only if they can pass or fly under the radar. While many simply wish to remain private, they also do not want to live in fear of being accidently discovered by those around them. They want to do their "thing" without feeling trapped or being made to feel like a pervert.

To provide a comparison, I am a model railroader. I do not belong to any clubs, but just like to do my own thing in my own way. If someone walks into my home and sees my layout, I can proudly tell them all about it and why I enjoy it. It is a private and very personal activity of mine, but one I don't have to hide (although I am old enough to remember a time when I did hide it from classmates etc. because it was looked upon as childish; i.e. playing with trains). To me, crossdressing is very similar in many ways, but I have to be extremely cautious lest someone find out. No matter how many people say that it is "their problem" if they don't understand or accept, I still have to and want to live with them in my life, and want their respect. Being visible among TG activists, can actually backfire against crossdressers, and help to perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.


Veronica

"Queer" is far different than "sissie"......Most of the LGBT world has accepted that "queer" describes being different. Many of the CD crowd can't handle accepting that they are also different.....

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

That is very true. However, crossdressers sometimes spend a lot of money on shoes, clothing and other necessities. Perhaps some shops, that are very crossdresser friendly such as Payless Shoes, could benefit by emphasizing that fact in their advertising and in their shops.

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Women buy Ferraris but the target market are men, so even though Ferrari gets women customers, they really don't court them. Payless likes our market share but catering to us in a public sense won't help their bottom line. So why would they waste money on a group that isn't a major source of income. I know you all think you are but honestly you are less than 10%. Especially a group that won't "come out"?

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In our case, in a very broad sense, it is gaining understanding and equality. But what is it we are asking the public to understand?

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that maybe you are a productive and viable member of society even if you don't dress like a guy?

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Nobody will assume Joe Public is TG; he is just there to support the cause.

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OK...so? PFLAGG does the same thing and they aren't gay

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So too can CD's march alongside, but for unity they are being tagged as part of TG. However their objectives could be quite different.

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and for a moment I thought you were making a good point until

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Because of unity, the TG goals are being promoted, but not the diversity.

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and here I am going to ask a simple question...the CD are the ones who don't step up because they can go back into hiding, so why don't the CDs promote themselves? Again as productive normal individuals who have families, mow the lawn, go to PTA meetings? Instead you would rather just walk away because your toys aren't the same as the TGs (I assume you mean TSs)

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So they return to the closet.

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when the going gets tough, the CDs go hide? (NB I know that many CDs do get out and try and get the public to understand but the OPs point is what we are debating here)

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But therein lies one of the problems for the CD. For many, visibility is not something they desire. Even those who venture out, do so only if they can pass or fly under the radar. While many simply wish to remain private, they also do not want to live in fear of being accidently discovered by those around them. They want to do their "thing" without feeling trapped or being made to feel like a pervert.

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So let me again ask a question. IF society accepted CDs as you believe they are learning to accept TSs...would CDs quit trying to hide? Would they want more visibility? Would they see life as better? I ask this because, when you complain that you aren't getting the exposure to the public two things come to my mind. Is it because you can't? OR is it because you really don't want to change the status quo? Because, I don't see CDs getting any acceptance when they hide when the fire gets hot because that's easier than fixing the problem? Then they complain that they don't get respect....I hate to use this but GROW a pair. Pull up your big girl panties or whatever bad cliche' you want to use. You expect someone to knock on your door and beg forgiveness? GO GET IT.

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If someone walks into my home and sees my layout, I can proudly tell them all about it and why I enjoy it. It is a private and very personal activity of mine, but one I don't have to hide

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Now I have to ask, why couldn't you answer the door in a chemise? Because you are afraid what may happen? You want rights and visibility, it will start at home.

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(although I am old enough to remember a time when I did hide it from classmates etc. because it was looked upon as childish; i.e. playing with trains).

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:thinking: Now THERE is an analogy I can support...YOU overcame that...how? You convinced the world that it was something people do and no one goes to jail for it...now do the same with your CDing.

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Being visible among TG activists, can actually backfire against crossdressers, and help to perpetuate incorrect stereotypes.

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:eek: what? How? How would you help perpetuate stereotypes? Because....you would dress like a hooker in public? Because you would somehow present as trying to seduce the neighbor? That you would get 30 CDs in a Volkswagen? How, exactly could you, as a CD make the fight the TSs are fighting harder? OR how, would a TS make YOUR life worse? Because people would think you wanted GRS? AW, there it is...isn't it? But you know how to avoid that? Step up, be seen and educate the world in nomenclature and how eah part is different. You can't do that in your basement.


All I get here is the idea that CDs (some) would prefer that nothing changed and they want to cry about that because somehow being disenfranchised and marginalized is better than actually fixing the problem. As Paula noted, a good many of the TS community would embrace you in our cause and take up your cause too IF you would quit crying that you are different than we are.

@Lorileah

So, in order to maintain my right to privacy, I should relinquish that privacy and go out and tell the world my secrets. That's rather self defeating. In your final sentence, you say that the TS community "would take up my cause.. if".. I...." would quit crying that " I am "different than" you. Firstly, I do not have a cause, I was simply stating my observations about how society's values have changed; and the impact that recognition of TG rights has had on the public perception of not only TG and TS, but also of crossdressing. Secondly, nobody is crying about anything. Is your position so fragile, that there can be no discussion about issues? Thirdly, I am much different than those who are TG and TS. I do not have any doubt or confusion as to who I am. My sex is male; I occasionally enjoy dressing privately in female clothing because it is different. It is a change, an escape, an adventure, relaxing and most of all fun. Sex is an absolute, unlike gender which is an abstract. Gender means whatever you want it to mean, including being a non existent concept. It has been described on this forum quite recently as being fluid. I have no desire to change my sex, nor do I feel as if I am a woman, simply because I put on female clothing. There is no woman in me waiting to be released. As such, my needs are totally different than those of a man who desires or needs to be a woman, even if only part time. Personal privacy, and the privacy of those who are near and dear to me are my primary concern, especially given the attitudes of others who have no way of understanding why I do what I do. I respect their right to be uncomfortable around something that seems so unnatural to them, and because of that right, I do not wish to be in their face about my eccentricities. I have been out, but in carefully controlled circumstances, where most of the people I was encountering were expecting to see crossdressers. Even so, I encountered instances of bewilderment and confusion, which I did not enjoy bringing to those people. I am not going to parade around my neighbourhood crossdressed in the hope that I can somehow convince those I know that this is all quite normal. In their minds it is not.

I come on here and some other venues from time to time, in the hope that I can put my message out to at least some who may see it. But as it is I see more misunderstanding in the media than existed 25 or 30 years ago. All they refer to is transgender, and their notion that it is one size fits all. We must all be Caitlyn Jenners. Meanwhile the only mention of crossdressing is in the negative, perverted sense, and the way it is presented on the Jerry Springer show. I can remember seeing some intelligent conversations about crossdressing on some of the daytime talk shows, such as Montel Williams and The Shirley Show in Canada, but those days are long gone. And sadly the public seems to have forgotten what the lessons were back then.

Veronica