What underlies society's and SO fears about crossdressing

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Amy Fakley, you’ve got things all turned around. The market responds to what people want, not the reverse. In the beauty and fashion industries, the market fundamentally addresses people’s needs to attract each other and also to show their socioeconomic status. Since most women are attracted to men and vice versa, the men and women will seek to make themselves attractive to each other through what is currently seen as attractive in any given society. Have you noticed, most media images that advertise beauty and fashion products feature young people, which happens to be the age range when most people are seeking mates? And separate from any attempt to attract the opposite sex, there is also the eternal quest for youth, but this is because youth is prized in our society and these products promise a more youthful appearance. Forty year olds get jobs more than sixty year olds.


It’s true that women are exposed to incessant marketing geared to impossible ideals of beauty (the use of female models who are in the top 5% on the human attractiveness scale and if they’re aren’t, they’re photoshopped to look that way), but that’s a separate issue. A lot of women are rebelling against this.

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Indeed! What nearly every single person in the whole world wants more than anything, is to fit into, and be considdered a valued member of their peer group. Yes, the market responds to demand, but I'm not talking about the market, I'm talking about the marketers, and they are an entirely different thing.

A marketer's job is not to respond to the demands of the marketplace, but to create demand in the marketplace. What I'm talking about goes much, much further than unrealistic depictions of beauty (though that is a good small-scale example).

Yes it is true that throughout human history, there have been markets and salespeople, but what has not been static for most of human history is the balance of power. Since the invention of mass media, the power of marketers to bend the shape the society we live in towards maximum profitability has become progressively more and more extreme, to the point that ... I guarantee you right now there are probably 50 different processes running in the background on my phone as I type this ... recording where I am, what news I'm reading, what people I'm talking to, and what I'm saying ... all so that there is the best possible chance that I will be receptive to the next advertisement thrown at me.

You can't fight that. You might as well stand on the beach and try to beat back the waves. It is ubiquitous, and utterly pervasive.

What I am proposing is that where this marketing intersects with gender, we have essentially a billion watt amplifier that distorts existing cultural notions of gender, bending them toward the most extreme ends of the spectrum. This is done because two strategies can reliably sell just about anything in existence: insecurity and sex appeal.

I propose that this is a big aspect of why gender nonconforming behavior so often illicit knee-jerk hostility, which upon thoughtful reflection usually dissapates greatly.

Fascinating thread. I do not disagree with anything so far but an additional aspect: status. It is fine for a woman to display some aspects of male behaviour and dress but not vice versa. Recently a white woman was vilified for pretending to be black when only a few would have problems with the converse. Society has status issues and anyone perceived as going down voluntarily makes others uncomfortable. I am not defending these perceptions - just saying they operate.

* Fear of homosexuality
When a straight, opposite-sex SO sees you beginning to present as the same gender as themselves, it often leads to them feeling you are 'going where they can't accompany you'. A perception that all or part of your life will now consist of you being in a state where they can no longer comfortably 'be your mate' is a very legitimate disruption in the relationship. It's like we've joined a club or a religion that they can't even seek to join themselves. The idea that it isn't a voluntary thing on our part, for most of us, but that there's some sort of 'compulsion' in our minds to do these things, is also very confusing and threatening to them. For most people, they look at cross dressing as something that certainly must be a voluntary choice on our part. Aside from drug addiction, alcoholism or religious zealotry, there are few things in the average person's range of experience that can explain that degree of compulsion to do something that most people would not do. So our apparent 'choice' to do something that separates us from the life they expected to share from us can be perceived as our intentionally cutting them out of part of our lives.

Even for those cross-dressers who truly are 100% straight, and whose opposite sex presentation is not accompanied by any desire to respond intimately to others of their birth gender, and who have no desire to completely switch to being perceived as the opposite gender, there is still the problem that your SO, if they are straight, can feel that they being expected to respond affectionately to what looks like another person of their gender. In other words they have to act like they are gay or lesbian or bisexual, which they probably are not, just to continue to have a 'straight' relationship with your opposite sex presentation self. Again, you are 'going where they can't go', and leaving them behind, for that part of your life while you cross dress.

For those not in a relationship with us, people in general tend to fear what they don't understand. And most straight people don't truly understand gay/lesbian/bisexual people, let alone the idea of a straight person who might like to, or need to, cross dress. We're 'different'. We don't follow the 'expected normal behavior'. They don't know what to actually expect from us, and all too often, their fears run rampant with the worst kinds of speculations about our motives and intentions. The others who they trust may be just as misinformed and fearful, and may reinforce or even strengthen that distrust and hatred of us, out of fear and ignorance. Of course, most of us really are quite harmless, and we're good people. But they don't know that. They hear all sorts of tales about twisted and perverted reasons for activities like cross dressing, and with no ready source of truthful information, they believe the worst of us. And as in my first paragraph, most others can't wrap their minds around the idea that this isn't necessarily a voluntary decision on our part. To them, this must be something we are choosing to do. And they can't comprehend why we would, unless there was some bad reason for it.

* Anger at deception
For any SO, yeah, I can see that. If you've been in a relationship for several years, and they find out that for most or all of that time you've been hiding a significant aspect of your life that is potentially disruptive to the relationship, of course they are going to be angry that you kept that information from them! Again, the perception is likely to be that we are choosing to cross dress. So to them, we have been choosing to do something that is disruptive, and have been hiding it. Certainly, we often have very good reasons for not coming forward with 'the truth' immediately. We fear losing them, for good reason. Coming out often destroys a relationship. Or we are in the closet and fear being outed to others. Or perhaps we believe that it's something we can set aside, for the sake of the relationship - that its something that we can 'kick the habit' on, for their sake. But for most of us, we find that we really can't quit for very long. If it was any other disruptive element, from drug addiction or a gambling problem to a our having a terminal disease, they would be equally upset that we kept it from them. If they perceive it as a choice on our part, that makes it worse. Even if they accept that we have no choice, it comes down to, "Then why didn't you trust me with this information?"

I don't see a woman's makeup or perfume as 'deceptive'. We all know that women don't really smell like flowers or look 'Photoshop perfect' when they hop out of bed.

Now if you see a girl undressing for the first time, and find out only then that her ample bust and shapely waist and hips were all padding and a super-tight corset, I might consider that a bit deceptive. (Oh wait, that's what many of us might do to others if we can pass, with the help of breast forms, hip pads and a corset as well as the makeup and perfume, and don't let the interested person know that we've 'improved the presentation'. For that reason, when I am out socially and someone seems 'interested' in me, I make sure they understand what they re getting into before it gets affectionate...)

* A SO's competitive nature
I would say no, on this count. At least, I wouldn't see it as a 'competition with the other woman'. More like if you were choosing to go out to a 'Gentleman's club' with your buddies on a regular basis and leave her at home, alone. Which is more important to you? Doing things with her, or doing things she can't do with you? Again, if perceived as a choice we are making, you are perceived as choosing to spend less time with them and more time 'doing something else, without them'. If they accept that we have no choice, and if they don't feel like they can 'come long for the ride', it's just as bad, because it makes them feel the relationship is being doomed by some outside force that they can't control.

Now here's a few of my own points:

* The SO's own feelings of inadequacy
Seeing your SO participating in what they perceive as a 'sexual kink' that the don't share an interest in can leave the SO to feel inadequate. "Am I not enough of a woman for him, that he needs to do that to get a thrill?". If there is any sexual component at all to your desire to cross dress, and if seeing you cross dressed does nothing for them, or worse, is a turn-off for them, what does that say about the future of the relationship? And even if there is no sexual component there for you, seeing you in the opposite-gender role could still be a strong turn-off for them. Either way, it makes them feel like they are inadequate - like they can't give you something that you need in your relationship.

* Fear that your sexual orientation will change, and you won't desire them any more.
Even if they have enough self-confidence not to feel inadequate in the face of finding out their SO cross dresses, and even if they are willing to try to be 'bisexual enough' on their part to see you affectionately while in your opposite sex mode, they can and most likely still do fear that your sexual orientation is changing and that you are leaving them behind. One of the first questions a CD or TG person usually gets asked when they come out of the closet to someone is, "Oh my God! Are you gay/lesbian now?" or "Oh! Are you going to get a sex change?" The average SO has good reason to fear a 'Yes' answer to either of those questions. Again, a yes would mean they are being left behind.

* Fear that your cross dressing will lead to your cheating on them with someone else.
If you ever go out alone while dressed, the suspicion will be there that of course you're seeking to have an amorous affair. Even if you don't leave the house, if you lied about the dressing, might you not have lied about where you go and what you do while dressed, as well? If you do go out socially without your SO while dressed, it can be very hard for an SO not to believe that the people you are dancing and drinking with are 'just platonic friends'. And God help you if those suspicions are well founded.

It takes a very special person to continue loving us and to stand by our side as we cross-dress or as we transition, partially or completely, to the opposite of the gender that they knew us as when we formed that relationship. "For better or for worse" isn't usually expected to include something as drastic as your mate changing their gender to yours. Communicating with them, as soon as you can, is usually the best course. Best is to be truthful from the start. But for any of us, there is a very real risk that disclosure will end the relationship.

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Replying to "ClosetED": In my personal experience, I find a high degree of acceptance among gay males and lesbians in gay/lesbian venues. Lesbians in particular seem to adore me when I am out en-femme, and most of my girl side's best friends and partying pals are lesbians. Now mind you, most of either set won't want to date us! But they usually accept us among them as friends and as someone to dance with.

ceera, great insight and post,

ClosetED sounds like she got something(relationship) on the outside working and needs a reason(way) out.

Why?
Homophobia, especially the fear that they might be gay themselves. We saw it when Caitlyn came out; every homophobic male went into crisis mode because if Bruce Jenner, the greatest most masculine of us all, was really feminine, it could 'happen' to any one of them? Oh, the horror!
Fear that a closeted gay man might not hold up his responsibility to his society to defend it, or perhaps be the 'weak link' that allows another cultural group to destroy his own. Women fear that they cannot rely on a man who's not 'all man, all the time'. It all comes down to society's view that women are somehow less able than men. The same old 'I'm a man, and that means I'm better than you' misogynist attitude that's been held by the old boys forever, which is sadly even supported by lots of women as well.

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Originally Posted by Amy Fakley

A marketer's job is not to respond to the demands of the marketplace, but to create demand in the marketplace. What I'm talking about goes much, much further than unrealistic depictions of beauty (though that is a good small-scale example).

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No, no, no! :)

Marketers spends enormous amounts of money each year conducting extensive research on their target demographics. What lifestyles do they have, what type of jobs, what's their price point, what cultural icons do they respond to, what music do they listen to, what do they drive, how do they spend their leisure time, what's the competition doing and what can they do better, etc ... and once they have all that info, they tailor their marketing to grab the target customer's attention away from the competition. But, it won't work if their target market isn't interested in their product to begin with. For example, you could have the best, edgiest, most creative marketing ever to sell makeup and skirts to men but guess what. They won't go for it. At best, you might target the segment of aging men who feel they need to remain competitive in the work force, and sell them products to reduce facial lines and color the gray in their hair, all packaged in a nice, masculine looking box, because if it's pink there go your sales.

The only time you can create a demand is when you come up with a brand new product. Apple was very good with this. But, this is not the situation with the fashion or cosmetics industry. The best they can do is respond to their target customers' existing lifestyles. And successful clothing designers not only need to know current design trends, they need to have the ability to forecast future trends by being aware of what's going on in popular culture.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

... But, it won't work if their target market isn't interested in their product to begin with. For example, you could have the best, edgiest, most creative marketing ever to sell makeup and skirts to men but guess what. They won't go for it. At best, you might target the segment of aging men who feel they need to remain competitive in the work force, and sell them products to reduce facial lines and color the gray in their hair, all packaged in a nice, masculine looking box, because if it's pink there go your sales...

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Not too many of those (type of men) on this forum... Around here, we're all suckers for make-up and skirts! ;)

Reine and Ceera - great points!
I thought this would make for good general discussion and not as much about me, but explaining my situation may help see why I have these thoughts.
Hugs, Ellen

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Originally Posted by ReineD

No, no, no! :)

Marketers spends enormous amounts of money each year conducting extensive research on their target demographics. What lifestyles do they have, what type of jobs, what's their price point, what cultural icons do they respond to, what music do they listen to, what do they drive, how do they spend their leisure time, what's the competition doing and what can they do better, etc ... and once they have all that info, they tailor their marketing to grab the target customer's attention away from the competition. But, it won't work if their target market isn't interested in their product to begin with. For example, you could have the best, edgiest, most creative marketing ever to sell makeup and skirts to men but guess what. They won't go for it. At best, you might target the segment of aging men who feel they need to remain competitive in the work force, and sell them products to reduce facial lines and color the gray in their hair, all packaged in a nice, masculine looking box, because if it's pink there go your sales.

The only time you can create a demand is when you come up with a brand new product. Apple was very good with this. But, this is not the situation with the fashion or cosmetics industry. The best they can do is respond to their target customers' existing lifestyles. And successful clothing designers not only need to know current design trends, they need to have the ability to forecast future trends by being aware of what's going on in popular culture.

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Well, I don't want to take the discussion off topic, and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... however, I think maybe I'm still not clearly explaining my point, and I think it is a good one, so let me try to make it one last time (briefly).

I'm not talking directly about sales or lack thereof, or market theory in general. I'm talking about the unintended consequences of the tactics used in the attempt to make a sale.

You are correct that you cannot sell things people do not want (within reason), but as we all know everyone has different wants and motivations. Marketing, therefore, attempts to make generalizations about what most people want in an attempt to persuade the largest possible number of people to buy something (an average if you will).

In that way, marketing serves to define, reinforce and amplify cultural norms. I suspect where gender is concerned, that this sort of inescapable, generations-long barrage of advertising that inadvertently reinforces only the most popular notions of gender may somewhat contribute to cultural intolerance of behaviors that fall even slightly outside what is today considdered "normal gender expression"

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...But, what person on the street will perceive a wife to be lesbian if she is with a man who happens to be presenting as a woman? The wife will be perceived as being in a relationship with a crossdresser (and not another woman) since very few crossdressers are perceived by others as natal females. ...

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Reine, great points all around, but I would counter the above with: the wife will be perceived a a woman who has a cross dressing or transgender friend.

I suspect that the normals would not think that a cross dresser is even married!

Many of the heavy hitters have already responded better than I could. Such thoughtful and great responses!

I'll only comment that I don't see society as fearing cding or anything else that describes a male at birth representing a female. Hate, disgust, repulsion... all those apply. I just don't see it as fear. Same with homophobia. That term gets thrown around a lot. I don't think fear has anything to do with it.

I check off a lot of the boxes that we talk about on here, and I guarantee NOBODY is afraid of me! I'm the one who's afraid!

BTW, Ceera, great post. Been at this for a while, huh!

There should be a Reine Center for Gender Study! In my experience at least, there's no way you get this kind of valuable insight from a counselor or therapist.

A lot of answers have it pretty well covered. Fear of the unknown. Or, of that which is not understood. Like the line in the batman begins movie which holds a lot of truth, we always fear what we don't understand. I think even we CDers often fear ourselves, at least in the beginning because we don't understand why we are different. 'We just are' doesn't answer much.

As for S/O's, it is the entire variety of things mentioned. But, each one is unique to themselves, and some of these things mentioned will effect one more than another. Some fear the backlash, some have issues with the femininity itself. Some feel cheated, or duped and are angry. Some feel they are losing the man they love (and some are totally, most are to some extent) For some, it is the beliefs they have had all their lives about how wrong it is. 30+ years, it takes more than just a few days or weeks to change an entire belief, and especially since there has never been anyone really to challenge that belief until us.

A couple of quick things I read and will remark on. I believe the OP mentioned something about finances, and how much the wife spends on herself as opposed to the CDer. I don't think this is ever a good point of discussion. The wife will spend whatever amount of money on cosmetics and clothes etc etc. Even though the CDing spouse may spend less, they are still spending money on their male selves, so in reality, even though the CD spending may not be as much as the wife spends, they are in effect spending on two different people. Combine that and the amount may actually become higher than what the wife spends. Overall, I just don't think it is ever a good line of reasoning.

As has been said from just about every GG on here, they do not feel they are lesbians because of the marriage to the CDer, but they may feel they are being forced into a lesbian relationship... there is a difference there, and It was not a choice in the beginning, or there wouldn't be an issue with it. So that goes for those wives who do have issues with it. They were not told, or not told all, or it became a lot more later on, and now they feel they have to choose to live in a lesbian relationship, even though they are not. I think that can be a very powerful feeling for many wives. It perhaps causes them to feel a disconnect. (some) They are not lesbians, but now the man they married is more of a woman, or now all woman, so they are living this lesbian relationship yet they are not. How often have we seen posts from GG's or from CD members on here that their wives struggle with intimacy with them post reveal. Many GG's have a very hard time interacting romantically while their partner is dressed, and it can often spill over to when they are not dressed. While society expectations do cause some of this, I think biology is also a cause as well.