Feel like a woman

*sigh*

The man in your video is not up on current research. He is even mentioned here:



I saw a great video where they brought the cameras into their actual experiments, so people could draw conclusions for themselves. They explained that various personality traits are on a spectrum, experienced by both males and females rather than placed in gendered boxes of male traits and female traits. I cannot remember where I saw this (one of the science websites), but if I run across it, I'll post it here. Your views will change.

But, you may be taking this off topic.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

We rather know we are women, because we are, and this doesn't bring us to the depths of happiness as it did with you. We feel rather neutral about it, the same way a man feels about being male. Does this make sense?

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Well said. And it brings up an interesting point; the 'feeling neutral about it' part.
I think that potentially, many of us don't: 'Feel neutral', about being male. Sure, we know we are. But that neutral feeling gets messed up somehow. So something in our heads tells us that no, that's not who we are. Even though all the evidence points in that direction. It's like driving on a two lane blacktop, where the center of the road is crowned. Driving in either lane, will make you need to ever so slightly continuously have to correct your direction, or you'll gradually swerve off the road. At least, that's what it's like for me. A very low intensity, feeling that being male is not what I am. Not neutral at all.

ReineD, is this the research you're referring to? Where the scientists classified a wide variety of behaviors as either "primarily masculine" or "primarily feminine", and then had people list which of the behaviors they take part in?

What they found is that the majority of participants engaged in a combination of male and female behaviors. A very small minority engaged 100% in male or female behaviors (the 'hyper masculine' or 'hyper feminine' among us). But for most of the population, gendered behavior was not black and white.

Not sure Jesse. This was a video I saw on either a science website, or maybe something like the Discovery Channel (or other science channel), or maybe it was even the BBC. If you have a link would you send it to me? I think I may have posted it here but it would take me forever to go through my history.

Thanks! :)

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

I think that potentially, many of us don't: 'Feel neutral', about being male.

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Sorry, SometimesMiss, I should have specified that I meant men who do not crossdress. I've no doubt that many members here don't feel neutral about being male.

Of course I don't know what it feels like to be a woman. But I've felt like a woman in my own mind. As Sandra put it, it's my imagination but there may also be something hormonal involved with some of us.

That's a good point, Ressie. You said "some of us".

As with everything else, we cannot say that all MtF members in this forum even feel the same way. Some people have something hormonal happening, while others may well intensely seek the feelings described here because it's all a part of the fantasy. Yes we do have members whose genders do not mesh with their bodies, but we also have a significant number of members for whom it is a delightful fantasy.

Good God (Goddess?), this topic makes me happy. I love how everyone is trying so hard to express their true selves, and express their feelings of offense or defensiveness without attacks. It makes me proud to be a small part of such a community.

After posting in the other thread about this yesterday, I thought about this for a while and came to a small realization about what I mean when I say I feel like a woman. For me, when I look in the mirror and see what looks more like a woman than my unadorned self, and feel good about it, I accept myself in that moment for being feminine. It borders on feeling like a woman, but there tends to be a little something missing. However, when I am presenting fem with others whom I consider to be women, and they accept me in the same way, that validation definitely makes me feel like a woman in that moment. It turns out that no matter how much I like the high heels and lipstick, those are not the actual things that create the feelings. They are simply ways for me to accept myself as fem, which in turn gives me the ability to let myself be accepted as fem by others, which creates a "feeling like a woman" moment.

Reine, I've always appreciated your wisdom and reason on this forum. I found your comment about GGs never really "feeling happiness because they look like women" compelling - it resonates with things my wife has told me as well. However, modifying your car example, can I propose something that I think may be a related feeling? Say that when you picked up the battery for the car at the automotive store you'd been treated in a chauvinistic way, as if women shouldn't be able to change a battery. This would reinforce the social norms we all have learned to loathe and could degrade you self worth. But if, instead, you'd been treated very professionally and had your opinions validated - perhaps even in ways you though no one ever would - perhaps in that moment you'd feel validated and, perhaps after a lifetime of experiences of degradation, you might wonder if this is what a man feels like. And having that validation repeated would reinforce that. You don't think you're a man, but being given the power and acceptance of one might evoke certain feelings that you'd associate with maleness. And, the freedom to express yourself as a man might also happen...

I dunno, just a thought.

TL;DR - For me, acceptance as a woman, either by myself or by others, is what I think I mean when I say "I feel like a woman."

- Sandra

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Originally Posted by ReineD

*sigh*

The man in your video is not up on current research. He is even mentioned here:



I saw a great video where they brought the cameras into their actual experiments, so people could draw conclusions for themselves. They explained that various personality traits are on a spectrum, experienced by both males and females rather than placed in gendered boxes of male traits and female traits. I cannot remember where I saw this (one of the science websites), but if I run across it, I'll post it here. Your views will change.

But, you may be taking this off topic.

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But, *we* are not.

Because if there is no such thing as a male or female brain, as your video states, then it's perfectly acceptable & correct when a CD'er says they feel like a woman! :yippee:

So, thank you for that. :)


Anyway, yes, it is a bit odd when even professional "experts" such as scientists can't even agree on the most basic of things, wouldn't you say? What do you do then? :strugglin

I know what I do, anyway: Say screw them & rely on my *own* experiences & observations. And those have shown me that typically speaking, men & women are wired differently. And isn't it "weird" how so many in the audience of my video laughed at so many things as they nodded their heads in agreement? Could it be that all of those people knew exactly what he was saying, as they could totally relate based on *their* experiences & observations? And in essence, maybe there is some truth to all that. Because otherwise, they'd be silent & uncomfortable & have confused looks on their faces like, "What the heck are you talking about, dude??"

Hmm... :thinking:

Wow, thanks much everyone for your well stated opinions. This is really interesting. I appreciate all your thoughts on this.

From what I've read so far, here's my conclusion so far:
- All male CDs here who say "I feel like a woman", they only mean some aspects of being a woman that a male doesn't usually have, such as a feeling of wearing woman cloth, being sexy, having breasts, being accepted as female from other people, etc. No one are claiming they know how woman feels everyday doing regular chores, working, etc.
- All male CDs seem to understand when other male CD says "I feel like a woman" that it means the above mentioned, though everyone exact definition will still be different, though in the similar spectrum.
- Based on 2 GGs here, it seems "I feel like a woman" is being interpreted differently as claiming one knows how woman feels.

So, now I have a question to GGs here: I can see how "I feel like a woman" can be interpreted as claiming to know how woman feels. I can see it the same as saying "I feel the same as a woman", and that really does have specific meaning that one claims to have all feeling like a woman. But what I don't understand is why can't we come to accept that when a male say "I feel like a woman", it doesn't mean that way? It's just a matter of language to express one's feeling. It's easily understood by male CDs here and so we use that broadly. So why not let it go and come to understand it doesn't mean anything deeply?
If this were to be said publicly with other people, then I will say it probably needs more discussions on whether this is really appropriate and whether it would likely cause bad consequences/misunderstanding. But in the forum here, at least, I think it should be fine to say "I feel like a woman" because it's an accepted language between most people here.

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Originally Posted by Sandra

The comment doesn't offend me but.... When I see the threads that say "I feel like a woman" my eyes roll :) How can a male say that ? how do they know what it feels like to be a woman ? Now if they say "I can probably imagine how it feels to be a woman when I do this or when I dress" then yes maybe they can, but to say that you feel like a woman, nope it don't compute. It's like me saying I know what it's feels like to be a man :D

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Thanks Sandra, it's a relieve to me to know that at least this is not rude in anyway. Btw, I find the term "I feel like a woman" different from "I know what it feels like to be a woman". It's more abstract, not having a specific meaning (as you can see from so many opinions here :))
Let's look at it different way. What if someone says "I feel like a stick", what does that mean? To be honest, I don't know too :) I just want to see if it can mean differently from different perspective that all of us can share, because we all know what the stick is. To me, my best understanding of this would be, maybe he/she means that he/she feels his/her body is not flexible and cannot move much, like a stick? It's more like one saying "I feel like being a stick" to me. I must admit I'm confused too, and that's the point, that when one says "I feel like a <some noun here>", it's very abstract and we should not assume it means anything specific.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

When CDers say, "I feel like a woman", it implies there is some universal way that women feel that the CDers have somehow tapped into. THERE ISN’T.

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Reine, I'd like to say that, IMO, "I feel like a woman" does not really imply anything. If anything, it begs for more questions of what one actually really means. But of course I say that from my own perspective. You might think differently and I'm willing to hear more how/why we think differently. I'd love to understand more. I think in the end, this might be just a language issue because the term is too abstract for some of us and we use it instinctively so. But it seems to mean specific thing to most GGs here, which I'm not sure why yet. I don't want to say this might be because of our physical gender brain wiring difference yet as I believe all human beings are capable of the same thing given time and experience. One thing that I am different from most of us here is that English is not my native language, so I may understand it differently from lacking experiences. But I'll try my best :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

And so when CDers describe their enhanced feelings when they dress as "feeling like a woman", it rather describes an enhanced feeling. A more accurate way to describe this might be, "I feel [fill in the blank: excited/happy/great/high/aroused/etc] when I present as a woman". This is not how women feel when they go about their business on a day-to-day basis. We feel rather neutral, until something happens that triggers an emotion of some sort, like feeling annoyed if the person at the cash register in front of us takes much longer than is customary to transact their business.

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I think you might be missing a point where CDs "feel like a woman" differently from woman "feel like a woman". Yes, I agree woman, just like other male, feel all kinds of things similarly. But that's not a point when CDs say "I feel like a woman". To me, it's more like saying "I feel [happy/excited/aroused/etc] because I feel like I'm a woman now, even though I'm male" and that doesn't imply woman must feel the same way I do, because you're not "male who feel like a woman".

Again, thanks much everybody for the replies! And I'd love to hear more of this :)

- Bonnie

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Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser

However, when I am presenting fem with others whom I consider to be women, and they accept me in the same way, that validation definitely makes me feel like a woman in that moment.

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You say, "Others whom you consider to be women" ... do you mean a TG support group, or do you mean a group of GGs. And if it is a group of GGs and they accept you for who you are, how do you know they think of you as a woman. Might they not simply accept you as a male who enjoys presenting as a woman? Because we cannot erase from our minds the fact that the person in front of us is a genetic male, no matter how supportive we are.

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Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser

Say that when you picked up the battery for the car at the automotive store you'd been treated in a chauvinistic way, as if women shouldn't be able to change a battery. This would reinforce the social norms we all have learned to loathe and could degrade you self worth. But if, instead, you'd been treated very professionally and had your opinions validated - perhaps even in ways you though no one ever would - perhaps in that moment you'd feel validated and, perhaps after a lifetime of experiences of degradation, you might wonder if this is what a man feels like. And having that validation repeated would reinforce that. You don't think you're a man, but being given the power and acceptance of one might evoke certain feelings that you'd associate with maleness. And, the freedom to express yourself as a man might also happen...

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I agree that no one wants to be discriminated against for their choices, whether it is a woman buying a car battery or a man presenting as a woman in public.

But getting back to the example of buying a car battery, if the person at the counter had been blatently chauvinistic, I would have asked to speak to the manager and would have told the manager why he was losing my business. Then I would have purchased the battery at a different store. As it was, the guy at the counter answered all my questions politely, just as he would have, had I been a man. Throughout my life, I have never accepted that I should be treated differently than men. Even when I was a little girl in the 1960s.

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Originally Posted by laurababe

Anyway, yes, it is a bit odd when even professional "experts" such as scientists can't even agree on the most basic of things, wouldn't you say? What do you do then? :strugglin

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You read a lot and you learn to tell the difference between pop culture icons and scientists! :p Mark Gungor (your video), is a pastor and self-styled expert on the American family and pop culture, for goodness sakes. This isn't science. Where are his brain studies. Where is his data. What sort of training does he have, to understand the neuroscience of brains compared to a neuro scientist.

Below isn't the video I was looking for, but you might find it interesting. Lise Eliot, Professor of Neuroscience at the Chicago Medical School, debunks pink brain vs blue brain in a 2015 lecture. It's a bit long but highly informative. She cites meta studies, so it's not her own private research she is talking about. This is a consensus. Brain sex differences are largely caused by developmental factors (experiences after birth due to parental and societal gender bias) and not from any innate hard wiring. Also, boys’ and girls’ brains have much more overlap than differences. In other words, when members here say they have female brains, they need to know that most men who do not crossdress also share traits with women (and women share traits with men), simply because there are no significant differences between girl and boy brains. I'll still try to find the other pink brain/blue brain video I mentioned earlier. They had a more engaging way of saying the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og9xC6S2MaY

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Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan

I think you might be missing a point where CDs "feel like a woman" differently from woman "feel like a woman". ... To me, it's more like saying "I feel [happy/excited/aroused/etc] because I feel like I'm a woman now, even though I'm male"

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Then we agree! :)

This just goes to show how important it is to be precise with language, especially if you are talking to people who are not like you, like a wife, gf, friends, the GGs in this forum, etc. Other people read the threads here, not just CDers.

In your OP you asked about using the statement "I feel like a woman". I'm assuming you were talking about saying it to other people than CDers? It makes sense that if you say it to another CDer, they'll understand where you're coming from, but the rest of us can only take it literally because we don't share your experience. And as you yourself pointed out, there's a difference between "I feel like a woman" and "I feel [happy/excited/aroused/etc]".

For me "feel like a woman" means someone is probably treating me as if I was a woman or
In my female mode, I've increased empathy, patience, respect that I don't normally experience in male mode, so another meaning for me is that a certain aspect has moved from my normal male mode, to one that more identifies with females when they are in a feminine mode.

Yes, Reine, I'm fully aware of who he is -- someone who has plenty of real-world experience in understanding how men's & women's minds work, and who helps bridge that gap so they can have happier, more fulfilling & more successful marriages. Of course, I see you conveniently fail to even mention the university study he brought up in the clip, if you must rely on those scientific studies you seem to love so much, while poo-pooing any kind of real-life stuff. Again, believe what you're told by the authoritative "experts"-- not what your own eyes & ears actually see. Because they always know better, right?

I'm also quite aware of what Slate is. ;)


Anyway, not for nothing, but you do realize that on some level, you're also implying by all this that trans-people are, in a sense, full of crap, to put it bluntly. Just making sure, here. :)

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Originally Posted by laurababe

Of course, I see you conveniently fail to even mention the university study he brought up in the clip,

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There was nothing in the clip that indicated the study title, authors, etc, that I could look up in order to read it. I cannot comment on things I have not verified. I have no clue how a "nothing box" relates to what we're talking about here.

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Originally Posted by laurababe

Anyway, not for nothing, but you do realize that on some level, you're also implying by all this that trans-people are, in a sense, full of crap, to put it bluntly.

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Saying there is no significant differences between the "hardwiring" of female and male brains is NOT saying that transsexualism does not exist. If a person does not feel connected to their body, this has nothing to do with whether they like to tinker with cars or play with puppies. I also find your insinuations offensive.

As a TS who has been on this road for a while I have to say that I still don't know what it is like to "feel like a woman". I feel like me, and "me" generally feels more comfortable while presenting and interacting with others as a female. That's it. Being a woman is not a magical nirvana.

When I am at work and I am a male I have male body parts and I am dressed as a male...Do I feel like a male? I have no idea, I don't know what a male feels like. All I know is what i feel.

Today i was at a shopping mall (in male mode) I saw a woman in a pretty dress and all I could think about is how badly I wanted to be walking around in that dress. I walked past a laser hair removal place and all I could think about was how desperately I would love to laser all my chest hair off.... what does all of this make me feel?

There is a very interesting BBC documentary by Dr Michael Mosely called is your brain male or female. There is very good new science that shows there are significant differences in a number of aspects of our brains. However it doesn't mean that its black and white males can have many aspects that are more common in female brains.

One part i remember (and please excuse the total lack of scientific terms in my recall) was male brains are 'wired' with more back to front & front to back connectors, female brains are left to right & right to left. So for example that helps explain some common generalisations such as:

Males are generally better at reading maps because the parts of the brain that do direction have more connections to the visual parts of the brain.

Females are generally better at multi skilling as the left and right parts of their brains are better connected than males.

Interestingly I can't read a map and am quite good at multi skilling

Okay, if we really need to be precise with the language definition of "feel like a woman" when CD says it to other people who don't know where CD is coming from, we need to look at the standard definition in dictionary, which I did some search and here's what I found:

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/feel+like
feel like someone or something
to have the feel of someone or something; to seem to be someone or something according to feel or touch. Ex. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy. This thing feels like a rubber hose, not a hot dog.

This is the closest I can find that can apply to "I feel like a woman" sentence, which according to this, it would mean 1) I have the feel of a woman, or 2) I seem to be a woman according to feel or touch.
In an example "Whoever this is feels like Tom", what does this mean to you? It probably means that whoever that is, he looks like Tom. And looking is one way to feel something from visual. I think the confusion is that the word feel can mean mainly two different things: 1) the feeling of inner mind, or 2) the feeling from outside, including five senses (touch/sight/smell/hearing/taste). So I'd say it's still not clear how other people would perceive "I feel like a woman" would mean and we can't really jump to any conclusion what they would think. Again, I think the language definition of this is too abstract and it's not fair to say that non-CDers people would all think it means one thing and not the other.
But I think it's fair to say that if a CDer should ever want to say this in public, he/she probably better elaborates on what he/she means more to make other people understand clearly.

At the very least, I think everyone here in this forum by now should understand that when CD says "I feel like a woman", what do they actually mean. Right?

- Bonnie

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I have no clue how a "nothing box" relates to what we're talking about here.

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Perhaps that's because men's & women's brains are wired differently? :D

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I also find your insinuations offensive.

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Well, at least you now know how some of yours come across. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...this has nothing to do with whether they like to tinker with cars or play with puppies.

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This isn't about actions or interests. This is about various stark differences between how typical men & typical women actually think & feel and how their minds typically work. But feel free to continue to ignore those scientific studies which support what I've said & are easily Google-able. Plenty out there.

Laura, the only thing I can suggest is to listen carefully to the video I posted. If you want to provide me with details about the study you wanted me to comment on, I'll be happy to do this. Also, do read about the neurobiology of learning and memory.

Until you've done all of that, you won't be able to learn. You'll glom onto an entertaining 5 minute video that agrees with what you want to hear, and you'll put everything else down. In a way, it's just like school. To develop an understanding about something, you need to take the time to learn it. If you don't want to do that even in a more general sense, then I'm sorry but when you knock the science because it doesn't fit in with how you would like it to be, we can't have a meaningful conversation.

And I suggest you start with this, perhaps? :)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuros...ex_differences

Interesting article here
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment...3aebb933b82dc3

and yes there are many people with counter views, to date clearly not enough is known

Reine,

There's no question the group was primarily trans, both male and female, as well as a few cisgendered folks. Emotionally, it was irrelevant what gender they were though - they felt like women to me and with little exception I had no trouble accepting them as such. So when I was treated as a normal person, while presenting fem, I experienced something I enjoyed and I would attribute to being a woman. Certainly, their nature may have made it easier for them to do so, and for that I love them, but that did not dilute the feeling in any way. I might be diluted, but the feeling wasn't :)

As far as batteries: you sound like a strong person who doesn't need others' affirmation of her place in the world; I envy that. My wife is similarly self-determined and it is something I strive for. And it is certainly possible that my weak sense of self leaves me more vulnerable to these sorts of feelings which don't resonate with your experience. But it does seem that there is room for me to feel like a woman in an esoteric sense, while understanding very little of how hard you've had to fight for your place or the world you've had to live in. At least, as long as I'm contrite about my place in this women's world!

Bonnie,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though you're seeking concession for CDs who use the phrase in question on this forum. I applaud that; tolerance and understanding are important in creating community and this a doubly important place for that. But, for me, what is missing is the acknowledgement of the gravity and reality of the situation.

When I came out to my wife a few months ago I tried desperately to protect her and tell her it was no big deal. It wasn't until I acknowledged the real implications of what my gender dysphoria were that we could start talking about the meaning of it in our relationship. I needed to come to terms with the pain it would mean for us, rather than trying to whitewash our situation with unsubstantiated reassurances.

In this case, at least from my perspective, we should acknowledge two things: that the phrase "I feel like a woman" is loaded and carries a great deal of meaning any time it is used. Also, that when used this phrase does not always mean the same thing, even when uttered by seemingly similar prototypical CDers. Once we admit this, then we can talk about our sensitivities and our cultural influences and our personal experiences. Until then we're likely to be stuck with a semantic debate.

Don't get me wrong; I love me a good ole fashioned semantic debate...

- Sandra

Laura, I'll take the time to read the wiki article to see if what they say fundamentally differs with Lisa Eliot and get back to you. You might want to read it in detail too, and also watch the video fully, so we can make comparisons.

Becky, in your article Mosley says that his own daughter defies the point he is making! Still, it's an advertisement for a weekly show that presumably hasn't aired yet? And who knows, they may well come to the same conclusions as Lisa Eliot.

If you will listen to the second video I posted (Lisa Eliot), you will see that there are indeed some differences between male and female brains, but the differences are insignificant compared to all the overlaps. All the things that form personality have been measured to be close in males and females.

... or am I talking to the wind. lol. Is anyone actually bothering to look at the details, or are people arguing in favor of what they want to argue about without any analysis of the details. :p

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Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser

Reine,

There's no question the group was primarily trans, both male and female, as well as a few cisgendered folks. Emotionally, it was irrelevant what gender they were though - they felt like women to me and with little exception I had no trouble accepting them as such. So when I was treated as a normal person, while presenting fem, I experienced something I enjoyed and I would attribute to being a woman.

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I don't blame you for feeling wonderful when you're accepted, if you've felt all your life you wouldn't be. If being accepted as a woman while you present as one, makes you feel you are one, then I'm glad for you, although our definitions of "woman" might differ. Is this who you feel you are inside all the time, and the acceptance of your presentation is validation for who you feel you are?

I don't know if you are transitioning or not, but to me it's a permanent thing, not something to switch in and out of. When people don't transition, the choice is to effectively live as male. I hope you won't take this the wrong way. When someone switches in and out of womanhood by choice, I should think this calls for a different definition. I won't presume to supply one here because I don't know where you are with all of this.

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Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser

But it does seem that there is room for me to feel like a woman in an esoteric sense, while understanding very little of how hard you've had to fight for your place or the world you've had to live in.

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I think if you had outings other than the trans group, you'd see that people will not treat you badly. Most people are polite and if they know, they don't let on. And I've not had to fight for my place in the world. I always just took it, unaware that men thought me "less than", even if they did. :)

Sandra, to be honest, I'm not exactly sure if I actually wanted to seek a concession for CD. The real reason I created this thread originally was to get more opinions about all this to see how everyone is thinking, for educational purpose. I'm trying my best to be neutral about this but I must admit I might have been biased on something since I'm a CD too. So I'm not really sure.

I agree that this term has a lot of meaning and that's what I'm trying to emphasize too, that one should never assume this would mean or imply anything. From a lot of opinions here, I can see that it rather depends on the speaker and surrounding context to know what it would actually mean.

- Bonnie

Reine, thank you for the kind words. Transitioning isn't on my horizon, if anything I consider myself gender fluid. But I'm VERY new to my journey and can't even claim knowledge of that. All I can say is how I felt at the time - it's entirely possible that I'll look back at these comments and laugh some day. My definition of woman certainly seems to change pretty often right now...

I realized earlier that a part of this, for me, was feeling like an outsider, or that I'd been having to fake my masculinity when in a situation that I would consider part of a woman's life. I was "man of honor" at my best friend's wedding - I attended both of my sisters' live births - there are many others; but in all of them I felt that I had to create a wall that I was still a guy, that I wasn't a female in this space, even if that was important to me. But finally being accepted as female was so freeing... I find it hard to even explain. Sorry, it's late, and I'm gushing.

Bonnie, thank you. Reasoned discourse is something we sorely need today. Keep up the good work :)

- Sandra

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Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser

Bonnie, thank you. Reasoned discourse is something we sorely need today. Keep up the good work :)

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I agree.

The next time I'm sick I'll be careful not to say "I feel like crap". I'll either be scolded with "you can't possibly know that" - or worse - "you should know".