Isn't being a man in a dress good?

Interesting- I'm not getting shock and awe or nasty looks, mostly sympathetic. Agreed the dress is a mismatch to expectations, but it is less effort for the observer than reading male coming through the female, which is the case when we are trying to look female, rather than just saying feminine is good, let's all enjoy it.

My choice of presentation does challenge the cultural idea that female is a lesser status, and is rewarded by certain privileges, among them sexy clothes. This would be a point of argument from women as a tradeoff many wouldn't willingly make, and these women would probably also say that if men want to wear dresses, have at it. That said, within this social contract, CDs who emulate females as closely as possible might be safer than I am. However, so far it seems to me that the reactions to me in public are very similar to those I would get if in a wig and forms. All the evidence to me says that the casual friendly observer will have the same kind supportive view, and the hostile TG phobe will not be any happier if I have shaved. The wild card is when people are courteous but inwardly angry.

There is certainly a cultural expectation / assumption that if a man enjoys wearing 'female' clothing to any degree whatever then he must

• Present convincingly as a woman full time
• Be attracted to, and want to be attractive to, men
• etc etc

None of which is necessarily true!
It would be cool if our culture could be such that a man could wear makeup, dresses etc presenting as a man without fear of ridicule or worse (and without his wife/SO having a meltdown). Maybe some day that will happen but not within our lifetimes.
Mind you. Here's the thing.... Much as I would love to be able to amble into work wearing lippy and eyeshadow but otherwise presenting male without adverse consequences, or wear a skirt suit when the mood takes me... I actually enjoy going the whole nine yards, the complete transformation, setting my male presentation to one side for a while. It's a lot of effort but it's fun too.

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Originally Posted by phili

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Let's embrace the idea that males should be able to wear dresses and adopt the manners and roles culturally assigned and permitted for females. Femininity and masculinity are clearly independent of biological sex, therefore we are all fundamentally free with respect to how we might feel.

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How does the old song go? I Can Dream, Can't I? Many Native American cultures had that figured out with the two-spirit thing: regardless of plumbing, choose your role as either hunter/warrior or gatherer/nurturer, generally around age 10, and your culture accepts and embraces you as part of the tribe. Works for me.

Your OP presents an interesting point for abstract discussion, but put me down in the camp that finds half-measures more discomfiting than poor or mediocre passability (and more so than a well-assembled look that makes no realistic attempt to pass/blend/convince). In fact, there's been a word to describe man-in-dress and similar efforts at what I once called "straddling stereotypes": genderf**k. If it's done as an in-your-face punk performance, it's intended to offend and provoke reaction. If it's done as you describe, just wanting to wear something soft and nice and pretty without all the other feminine-presentation baggage, you may or may not get a pass from the general public. San Francisco would certainly be among your more favorable environments (if you can pay the rent there...:eek:).

Whether it's casual or dressy, I want to look the part, albeit without elaborate padding or cinching. Women come in all shapes and sizes, and maybe I'm just lucky to have a fairly androgynous physique for a six-footer. For me, it's details, details, details, and that's not satisfied by attire that might otherwise be termed (for lack of a less-loaded word) non-erotic fetishism, an attachment to the object without the usual context.

Philli ,
I was just reading through this hread and noticed your avatar , if this were the 13-1400's you would fit right in so to say fashion wise , when i dress it is rather tomboyish if you will you really have to look ,however of late as I sink deeper into the gender abyss I am wearing more obvious girls clothing ,I have noticed as a rule that if you do not call attention to yourself in any way no one really pays any attention I sometimes feel a lot of what we think people are noticing is all in our own minds and once we overcome this (easier said than done ) we enjoy ourselves more
hugs phylis anne

Thanks again, everyone- this has been very educational! I'm now understanding the urge to look like a woman and support the binary. In SF my genderqueer look is not considered 'in your face'- just mixed gender. It is good to know the background of why some fellow crossdressers dislike my appearance.

I appreciate the voices of tolerance and especially those from like-minded members.I hope any lurkers who share my view will post a pic in my Man in a dress thread in Pictures, and if you don't want to show your face- go neck down!

I'll also post some pictures that are not 14th century styles!

I'm with you brother. I am one person that doesn't change when I am wearing "women's" clothes. I suppose if we lived in a world where there was no stigma to what we call "crossdressing" today, I would find some equilibrium that satisfied my own personal style. That would probably be wearing a lot of skirts, having a short, but feminine hairstyle and maybe even a little bit of makeup. I would not be trying to be something am not, but somewhere between the two gender binaries in terms of dressing--because it is what is comfortable to me. I would still be a man and might even wear a dress every now and again.

I was thinking of names that cross genders (whether spelled differently or not), Dale, Jerry, Kerry, etc., When someone comes up to us who has been named ahead of the meeting, we have a little bit of a shock if we guessed the wrong gender. Should what we wear make any more difference than that?

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Originally Posted by taylormercedes

I agree. Sometimes I just want to be a man in a dress and other days I want to feel pretty and feminine; which in my own case involves a complete transformation from head to feet. But I just want to be able to do what I want without fearing judgement from others or ostracization from the people close to me.

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"Hey, by the way, Mike is being Barbara today." "Oh, okay. No big deal"

Phili you do make some good points, and my perspective on crossdressing is similar to yours. I identify my sexual orientation as "100% straight". I identify my gender as "100% male", and I also recognize that I have suffered with some gender dysphoria, especially in my early childhood. For me crossdressing is not only a pleasurable sensation, but a way of fixing my damaged inner self. So I am just a man in a dress as well.

However, I have met crossdressers who were bi-sexual and even homosexual. I know crossdressers who have transitioned to formally change their gender. Yes, many crossdressers are more comfortable calling themselves "girls" and using the women's restrooms in public. Some crossdressers identify their gender as part male and part female. There is a wide, wide spectrum within crossdressing.

Perhaps some of the problem we experience with social acceptance is that we cannot explain ourselves to the public in a way that encompasses all aspects of this spectrum.

We've all been programmed since birth to think that men and women should dress a certain way. if that changed to where both men and women wore whatever they liked right from the time they could make their own decisions without ridicule there'd certainly be a lot of men in dresses and skirts. If you want to wear a dress and not deal with the wigs, makeup, and whatever else then by all means go for it.

I don’t have a problem if you want to be a guy in a skirt/dress. I have twice encountered this. First was in Solvang, a Danish tourist town. I was sitting at an outdoor café, he walked up and asked if he could set down. The Maitre’D ran over to save me. I told them it was ok. The second was at The Center in Vegas, he is one of the staff there. I think all you need to pull this off is confidence coupled with an outgoing, upbeat personality. I find it’s more fun to be different, I prefer to be the unicorn in the room. I meet way more people than if I was part of the background.

This brought something very recent to mind (Thanks Phili, or i'd had forgotten something obviously valuable). This is near to topic right? kinda?
Anyway, My SO was chatting with me about my occasional "self doubt".. I was having a bad mental day and, we started talking about my pastime. I was exhibiting my usual "what does it all mean?" question of no significance really when I then rephrased the question to Her. I said "whats in it for you?..or why do you care wether I do or I don't?"
With a determine attitude, my wife says this.." you are different dressed..happier, more at ease in general"..I replied I didn't understand...She replied "It's just that this seems like it's more you than NOT you..." I shut up and felt instantly better for awhile..at least until the next bout of doubt enters the arena for a go at me...
Thanks Phili,and Thank you posters...I think I needed to look at that again, and would not have otherwise

I too say "whatever floats your boat" but please do not attempt to force us all into your category. Even though my results are often disappointing I have a strong female identity in my gender. These days it's my predominant gender identity. Circumstances are such that I cannot display it all the time, but when I do, I want to present as female head to toe; however in order to not go completely nuts I have to at least underdress when I can't express Jeanne completely. No beard; as close-shaved as possible and no body hair, except for where a girl who wants to look natural down below will have some.

For me it's an attempt to overcome significant gender<->body dysphoria. When I see my shaved body in the mirror, I feel that there are at least fewer things wrong with me, and I can accept myself better; it gives me significant relief from the dysphoria.

We are all a complex mix here. In my case, strong female identity, but sexually attracted to only females (though with a slight preference for butch ones). I guess that makes me a lesbian-transgendered-woman-who-crossdresses-when-she-can. I think every person here has her own similar hyphenated identity! Create your own, and let the rest of us create own rather than trying to fit ourselves to other people's perceptions. In fact that's our whole problem, we're forced to fit other people's perceptions about what they think we should be, rather than our own very intimate insight into our own selves.

Personally "enjoying all this as men" doesn't work for me. I don't feel any affinity at all to masculinity these days. I still have to function as a man in various contexts. That's hard enough to accept.

Don't know what it's worth but, speaking only for me (others too but they'll chime in) I find nothing wrong at all with your feelings. Much like yourself Jean, I have to go the only way I know how.. And I too cannot be too worried about anything else. I believe your quite justified in that.
I won't allow myself to packaged into pigeonholes, as I am sure you won't either.

It interests me how many expressed the idea of being boxed in by my proposal that we affirm that we are men.

I think folks may have missed the idea that is included, which is that we would also be redefining what it means to be a man can mean. This ought, in my view, to eliminate the need not to appear to be a man.

I notice this feeling in myself when I look like what I like to call a Civil War Veteran- craggy rough hewn older bearded man look- it has deep associations for me and my version of dysphoria then is that my body does not 'look' anything like I want it to look. Of course, it is my body, so the reality is that someone who looks 150 years old can feel very girly and want to be wearing girly clothes and be appreciated as a non-female girl.

If I don't look in the mirror, I have no trouble! I am a man, I am happy to feel free and feminine, and I just want others to accept that.

I think it is safe to say that trying to look like a woman, if you can, is fun and desirable, since it is the least energy solution and avoids the dissonance of not 'looking like' a woman. However, this creates problems for everyone who can't pass, and in the end, that is most of us. I can understand that most members probably feel that playing by the rules is usually the best course, and the rule here is that if you want to feel feminine or partake in women's culture, you have to at least try to look like a woman, so you are not perceived as trying to upset the gender role apple cart.

I admit that upsettig the apple cart seems like a good idea to me, since it not only frees us to redefine manhood, but it frees women as well to redefine womanhood, and the end goal is that everyone can do what they feel is most appropriate for ther psyche and find partners who resonate with them.

I secretly hope that this also would then eliminate a lot of dysphoria, since the strict rule that manhood or womanhood means X would no longer hold, and our brothers and sisters would be free to be what they feel. So many today look down and don't like what they see - because it looks wrong, and/or limits them, . If everyone was free, then looking down is just looking down, and you see yourself and like yourself because you like how you feel and express yourself.

So much of what we learn as children about gender is rule-based, with punishment for breaking the rules. But if the rule is to be yourself, masculine or feminine or fluid, whatever your biological sex, then things are a lot better for everyone. It is the kind of rule no one would break- therefore no punishment.

At least try to imagine - what if seeing a man in a dress was normal? We would have to look deeper and see how he was acting and what his interests were. It really would just mean that we would have a much broader and more accurate sense of the diversity of men.

It really makes me wonder about this stereo typing of CDR's and "tranny" titles. I have been studying the Indigenous people of North America Mainly Canada and West coast Hiada's (I love their wood carvings which I carve as well) The Native men in many many Tribes especially the farmers wore Dresses. Some still do to this day. If you look thru the America's you will find cultures where the men wear dresses and or skirts.

It is what society puts Labels on things they do not understand or agree with or goes against their "church" It is sad state we are in and until people start realizing that Gender equality is and needs to be realized we will always be put in the "corner" the "bad" or "taboo" and the "your sick" category.

That is the America's the rest of the world we can talk about Africa and India and Austallia. Men and women both wear skirts. They do not judge if the guy is wearing woman's clothes. Makes me realize how much society corrupts peoples minds with wrong ideas. How they try to make us feel when the "new Man" can wear silky lacey clothes and it is ok.

Stereo type? No I say ignorance on the ill informed and the people who are unknowledgable.

I think this concept would help a lot of cds who like their skirts and dresses, but feel bad when they're told that wearing those requires them to be "girly" or "gay", even though they arent.. you don't see the same results when women wear pants because our society has normalized women wearing pants, but not men wearing dresses. So that would be nice for male dress wearing to become a normal thing in our world

I think being a man in a dress is good. If I could, I would wear female clothes and makeup because I like them and feel sexy in them, not because I would think I'm a women trapped in a male body or wanted to look like a women. I even don't like wigs, breast forms and bra. I only wear them when I go out, to attract as little attention as possible. I'm happy beeing a men, but unhappy because I can't wear what I want without consequences.

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Originally Posted by phili

It interests me how many expressed the idea of being boxed in by my proposal that we affirm that we are men.

I think folks may have missed the idea that is included, which is that we would also be redefining what it means to be a man can mean. This ought, in my view, to eliminate the need not to appear to be a man.

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I think that you are missing the point that some of us don't want to be men. I don't want to be a man so therefore your proposal boxes me into your idea of what I should conform to.

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Originally Posted by phili

I think folks may have missed the idea that is included, which is that we would also be redefining what it means to be a man can mean. This ought, in my view, to eliminate the need not to appear to be a man.

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I am a man. I enjoy being a man. However, when I dress I like to present and appear to the extent possible as female. I am embracing my feminine side and wish to show it.

We all have different reasons for choosing to dress and present as we do. Just as you may wish to do away with societies gender specific clothing rules, I wish to embrace them and just enjoy my time escaping into my feminine role.

Not to be argumentative, but while it's fine if men want to wear dresses, my purpose is to distance myself from maleness to the greatest possible extent on the occasions when I am able to. Let's all remember we are each part of a spectrum..all little beams of light...but certainly not all the same color;)

We live in a society that seems to like their gender lines clearly drawn. Yes, there has been some blurring of the lines, but the line is still there for someone to trip over. To blame religion is an easy excuse, we should all look squarely in the mirror at ourselves. Let's face it. most women are not the problem, it's the knuckle dragging testosterone driven males. They want to hold on the their power and blurred gender lines create problems for them and their world view. Just look into the power corridors of business and government and see all the Alpha males running things. A male in a skirt is a problem to them, they can't understand why they are not alpha driven like them, can they be trusted, what sex are they? A male going the whole nine yards and passing as a female is a bigger problem, because they want to make a pass at anything in a skirt and they then get a rude surprise.

In a perfect world there would be no gender lines, neither male, or female, slave, or free, we would all be the same, but that isn't going to happen in our world soon. Yet walls are broken down one brick at a time. Phili, wear your dress, or skirt out in public, and others should do as they wish. You will either receive applause, scorn, or disinterest as people just go about their lives.

I am one who sees himself as male with an open mind to letting people be who they are. I just don't want people shoving something in my face. I don't tell people what I am wearing under my outer clothes, it's none of their business! If someone thinks that explaining to a person why they are the way they are would help, then fine go ahead and try. People never stop amazing me, whether it is for an open mind, or a closed mind. Embracing who you are is important, if you can't be true to yourself, then who can you be true to?

Phili got it all right and rest of you as well. To be honest, Phili is person that goes by that exact "definition" of cd, well if defintion is right word in first place. Crossdress - do you ses word dress there? A dress, clothes. It should be all about clothes only (Phili you awesome! Got all my respect ;) ) and not much as behaving like gg. But then why like 90% of us is trying to blend in much as possible? As it was mentioned in few posts already, its bcs social issues. For many its better to (try) blend in then go out as men in dress (go out, at home it doenst matter, nobody judge you here). Maybe in US ppl are kind of used to this and are okay with that and by reading post of you all who lives there, that seems more likely as true. But here in EU, well, go as men in dress and you become outcast. One of reason why I personaly working on to blend much as passible when i decide its right time to step out. Here its better and thus safer to ppl doubt your gender then be read right away. But dont get me wrong, If I could be just men in dress without future issues that come with it then I would be. Female wardrobe has so many pieces of clothing that are way better and more comfy then male ones. We all know that...

I totally understand Phil's speech about gender stereotypes. GGs get the pressure of it all the time, and when I dress with feminine clothes and forms, I am also giving in, accepting to be shaped by them. But as I do so deliberately, I don't see it as a surrender. Also, while my rational brain doesn't endorse gender stereotypes like shaved legs, lipstick, heels (I don't like the idea of shaping individuals socially) and I never ask anything like this from my wife, my sexual brain can't help but find my wife and girls in general more attractive when she/they go with them. I'm a product of the 60's I guess, where short skirts and tights were all around me as a child. When I wear feminine attire, I will often go with a pair of jeans, a shirt, but absolutely need breast and tights for the weight and touch, because crossdressing is an emotional trip for me, I want to fully let go my male form and be, like others said, as far from my male self as possible. This is the only way I can feel really free and at peace. I am a man, but in these moments, I have to imagine I am a woman from these 60's.

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Originally Posted by phili

Becky's point that life doesn't have to be simpler is a good one, but relaxing the binary rulebook would make it easier for all of us to be successful, wouldn't it? Setting up two teams and a rulebook about appearance and behavior doesn't speak to the fact that the basic nature of men and women is pretty similar, so the binary system [look like a 'boy' or 'girl'] just means everyone is working hard to try to conform to something, and restricting a lot of aspects of themselves in the process. It is further made difficult and often toxic by promoting ideals like the cover girl or the macho man, which are not good for us.

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I have spent 3.5 years, and many thousands of dollars on electrolysis to get rid of my facial hair. (Still not finished *sob*). So take that into account when you read my reply.

I don't have any problem with genderqueer people such as yourself, or perhaps you want to think of it as gender bending, or simply that the gender binary does not serve us well. I actually agree with you that it doesn't. I don't think you'll be rid of it, but some of the stupid and arbitrary stuff we do - segregated restrooms, and stupid policing of gender norms, especially regarding apparel - should definitely go by the wayside.

You will also find plenty of trans people who disagree with me. I'll be honest - what you propose, in some sense, makes life more difficult for highly binary trans people like me. I'm easy to explain - I'm just a woman, albeit with an interesting history. What gets a lot of trans people upset is that many hostile cisgender people assume that there is no difference between someone like me and someone like you. (Personally, I don't really think it should make much of any kind of difference in most situations.) They also assume btw, that we are both rapists - despite the fact that I no longer possess the anatomy to rape anyone with. Obviously this is projection on their part, since 90% of rapes are committed by cisgender men, and 80% of those are committed by men who know the victim. And nearly 0% of them are committed by men in dresses. Nevertheless, we're bathroom bills here in Texas this week that make just such assumptions. So many transpeople want to throw individuals like yourself under the bus, thinking that this will make society accept us better. Unfortunately, they are wrong about this - the people who hate trans people of various stripes do not consider us to be human beings in the first place, so having trans people who conform well to the gender binary doesn't cut much ice with them.

Anyway, carry-on hon. I will say that presentations like yours make correct pronoun nearly impossible. Because asking me MY preferred pronoun, which is what would be required for you, will anger me, because I spent a big heap of dough to make it unnecessary to ask that question. So it does put cis people into kind of a bind - do they ask and offend someone, or not ask , and offend someone? Perhaps the answer is something really simple like - avoiding gendered pronouns wherever possible!

Over the longer haul, having people not freak out over a "man in a dress" would make transition a lot easier for those of us who need to transition. It wouldn't eliminate it - you'll have to take my word on that, but it would reduce the stress of the process.

Anyway, do what you do and own it. I support your efforts.

edit:
regarding stereotypical feminine attire. I freaking hate wearing pants. I was forced to wear them for 50 years. So wearing pants IS NOT LIBEARATING for me as a woman. There are femme's - women who like to wear feminine things. Femmes get erased in a lot of spaces - especially queer ones, and somehow, for a trans woman like me to wear a dress and makeup means that I'm somehow a sellout, and am endorsing mistreatment of women.

I have a number of cis women friends who frankly dress terribly. They were badly fitting, baggie, t-shirts and jeans that could belong to either men or women - except you know they are women's jeans because the pockets in them are useless! I support their choice - but wish every once in a while they would choose to put more than 10 seconds of effort into their appearance each day. (Of course men get away with that all the time so it's only fair, although I think guys who wear stuff like what I described also look really terrible.)

Anyway, I might think all that - but I would NEVER say it to anyone. I'm not the fashion police, and I support people expressing themselves however they choose, even if I personally think "damn, I wouldn't clean a public restroom wearing that outfit!"

I get this type of erasure a fair amount. Somehow, whatever type of woman I am, I'm the type that no matter what I do, I don't count as a "real woman." If I am femme, I am a sellout and reinforce sexist misogynist stereotypes. (That I would think "that dress is pretty!" doesn't seem to count.) If I am butch, then I am clearly not even trying to be a woman. It's frustrating.

So maybe, at the end of the day, the people who critique me would be more comfortable with you, phili, in a dress. But I bet not. Because somehow, even though we are all for women's rights, EVERYTHING masculine is viewed as being superior in our culture, from clothes, to emotional response (or lack thereof), to everything else.