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Theresa,
Is it possible...
There are crossdressers who don't think they are a woman and don't want to become a woman. They don't even want to present as one (wig and makeup) because, when doing so, they feel the mixed message it gives out causes confusion and misunderstanding. After all, many on this forum have no problem admitting they could never pass as a GG.
I just want everyone to be happy doing as much or as little crossdressing as they want.
Tracy,
It's fine to discuss it between members on the forum but we are considering what the public think and their reaction, that child my have witnessed some bad comments first hand , is it really fair on that child ? Is it almost using and abusing that child to make a point it may not understand .
Teresa, think back to a time when interracial couples were on the front lines of discrimination. Do you think that their children were spared hateful comments? Should those couples have hidden their relationships in order to spare their kids?
Or should we show our children that there are many types of expression, and that not everyone is going to like what others do and say?
Of course its fair to judge...and unavoidable...so long as we keep our opinions to ourselves. (And share with our SOs at our own risk).
It is also fair to ask oneself why and how we arrived at that judgement.
We seem to use judging someone with a broad brush. Look at it this way, I don't "care" for how that person is dressed, however, I am not judgemental and that person can live their own life as they deem appropriate for herself. It is regularly used as just a comparison to our likes and dislikes, and is not in anyway limiting what others thinks or do when we keep that opinion to ourselves. If we share with others the tendency is to try to convince them to agree with us versus letting them form their own opinion. If you use judging as in comparing, then that is what we all do everyday when we look at people, pick fruit from the bin, pick a movie. We cannot and should not require others to live, or present or exist under terms that we personally deem proper, because those are usually based on societal norms that have been proven wrong in many cases over the past thousands of years.
Regarding presenting wrongly and thus giving others like us a bad reputation, I have always stated that is pure BS. First, us as a group are a tiny fraction of the total population. Us in that group that actually go out in public to be seen and many times interacted with are a growing but still very small percentage of that. I.e. We are a blip that only show up in a small number (compared to the total number) of people on this planet or even where we live. Dress how you want, when you want and where you want as long as it is legal. Trampy people go to church and get looked down upon. Hell, they are there to spend time with their God or supreme being, not to impress nor satisfy the other people there supposedly there for the same reason.
Regarding having little children seeing us and even interacting with us, that is their parents decision. I personally believe that they should see and learn to interact with us when possible in order to see that we (everyone on this planet) come in all shapes, sizes, colors, languages and presentations, and most importantly, we all have the same right to be here and go about our lives. If we start limiting or restricting their view of the world to our own, they may end up just like their closed minded unaccepting parents, and then ... the basic problem of acceptance of all by all continues to wallow in the mud, and we will unnecessarily continue to have these "acceptance" discussions long into the future
I may not agree with how he dressed and I would not go out like that, but if he is comfortable presenting like that who are we to say it is wrong. To me it is the wig that doesn't belong.
As crossdressers we judge each other very much the way GGs judge each other. But the judgement is superficial, at first glance. Judging a book by it's cover so to speak. I have an initial thought with every CD I meet about what they're wearing, makeup, wig etc. Cheap wigs are easy to spot for example. This is actually prejudgement isn't it? I'm sure others have thoughts about my makeup or outfits but they're nice enough not to say anything!
We should strive not to be judgemental IMO. There's enough people out there that condemn others according to their appearance. Once you talk to someone that's different (i.e. another CD) and get to know them, you may find a very nice person that deserves respect no matter how they present their self. Sometimes not.
The way to get past that is to get to know the person you've judged poorly. :thumbsup:
I've met 100's of dressers. Some were minimal dressers, as u described. Once I got to know them, they seemed to be as "normal" and "reasonable" as the "dress to the 9's" dressers I've met!:battingeyelashes:
If everyone that judges us, including us, could meet and chat with that dresser we judged? I do believe we would mostly all be friends AND accepted in bathrooms around the country overnite!:D
I suppose it is possible, but it is not based on reality. The plain truth is that we (the TG community) are all considered an aberration by a great many people. Nothing typifies that better for them than the obviously male figure wearing a dress. That act has next to nothing in common with the TG person who is actually trying to present as female. It maybe a a valid argument that more MIAD's would "normalize" dresses for men, but male fashion choices have next to nothing to do with the transgendered. It does not follow, logically, that said normalization would be of benefit to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy Irving
You may not agree with her presentation or the fact their child was with them but you don't have the right to judge plain and simple.
We all judge others to some extent but knowing when to keep our mouths shut is the key.
People these days don't have much decency so they open their big mouths and start trouble if you don't fit their mold.
Be the better person and just don't comment in a negative way.
As far as kids go, I wouldn't worry too much. I've dealt with hundreds of kids in theatrical and school settings and my (TS) girlfriend, who is a children's magician, has dealt with literally (and, yes, I mean literally) tens of thousands of kids over the years. Most kids seem to just accept it as yet another weird thing about grown-ups. They're used to not asking grown-ups to justify themselves. But once in a while someone will come ask one of us, "Are you a boy or a girl?" or words to that effect. I generally smile and say, "Actually I'm a little of both." and wait for a follow-on question. Generally all I get is "Oh." and the kid geos back to what they were doing. My girlfriend says "I was born a boy, but now I'm a girl." There's almost never any follow-up -- my sense is the kids just want confirmation that they understood the situation correctly. I think kids are naturally accepting because they're still learning how things are. They only get upset if their parents or a grown-up tell them they ought to be upset. ;)
It has been discussed on this forum how super perceptive children can be. You could just as easily be writing about the child seeing a man in a wig and makeup, witnessing some bad comments first hand. Why would a three year old child totally understand a man in a wig and makeup but would be used and abused if he took it off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
I know you are not suggesting that crossdressers need to stay home and hide in the closet. We are all free to be what we want.
Peace, love and understanding, Tracy.
If there is one thing I learned on this forum it is that a man in a dress (MIAD) falls under the fransgender umbrella. With that said, male fashion choices to wear a dress could benefit the transgender community that identifies as a MIAD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly
I do agree with you that said normalization would do less for those trying to present as female. But, as part of this all inclusive transgender umbrella, I would applaud their success!
This is always a tricky subject and its nice in theory to say people shouldn't judge but the reality is (as many of you have already said) everyone judges. One the one hand people should be able to present themselves however they want within the law because that is what freedom is all about on the other hand I think that a half dresser is not great for our community as a whole. I posted a thread a while back about seeing a guy out in a dress with a beard and the negative response it got from the 5 'normal' people I was with who all agreed that there was nothing wrong with a person cross dressing but that they felt the 'bearded lady look ' was weird and unnecessary. I think that the majority of ordinary people seeing this person 'half dressed' would be negative and having a child with him/her would have made most people even more uncomfortable.
It all boils down to this yes you can do it but should you do it.
Or just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Somehow I still feel that you are saying kids will accept what ever goes on around them without question, we can behave how we chose and wear what we want, no one is saying those kids also have rights, and are they being given the chance to air them ? Is it right to assume they are super perceptive only to find they are behaving badly at school because their homelife is totally confusing them ?
Going back to Jamie's original thread , that child may have been playing merry hell in the car because it didn't like the way it's dad was dressed and maybe some promised treat had pacified it.
Some recent news in the UK appears to be going to far , parents being very upset when they are asked what gender they want their children to enter school. Very few children at that age are even aware of gender , they are just kids , we should allow them to be so and grow up in their own time and not inflict an adult situation on them. They need our support at that time not use them to support our needs they don't understand, they have rights too !
I didn't post on this site for over six months. One of the reasons was because of the tiny "crossdresser" umbrella that didn't approve of crossdressers. I always thought crossdressers were a part of the crossdressing community as a whole. Crossdressing soon became way more than crossdressing. I learned some people feel that we need to present as female and hide who we are with a wig and a painted face to fit in here. But, I am back and ready to get banned from this site because I am a crossdresser. I am not a half dresser. I don't wear half a bra, one thigh high and half a dress. I fully crossdress, mostly without a wig and makeup, and I don't feel like I am missing out on anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Becky Blue
I realize I shake up this world when I challenge the status quo and get people to think about the other side. They probably want me to take another sabbatical, lol.
I really do wish everyone success and happiness with their crossdressing choices.
Tracy,
You are a crossdresser, or as now labelled MIAD. That is fine, and you enjoy it . Those among us who are TG/TS don't understand the inbetween look.
We don't hide behind a wig and painted faces, it is an outward expression to the World of our inner feelings, OK maybe you don't understand that . Most of us out to the public get accepted almost without question , no we don't pass, but if we look convincing enough we will be left alone to be the females we wish to be.
I do MIAD at home because at the moment I'm still in a DADT situation and rushing to put makeup on and then rushing to take it off is a waste of time, but I don't like appearing in the inbetween look , if anyone sees me they are justified saying I look ridiculous, it just doesn't work for me when I go out because I don't look ridiculous when I'm fully dressed , it feels totally right and natural, I'm comfortable being seen fully dressed .
Tracy, I hope that you did not take my post as an attack on you personally. I felt bad for the way I thought, judging. Not my proudest moment I know, but it did make me think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy Irving
Sigh...
This is the problem with labels, they don't work because they don't quite fit. A man in a dress, or a skirt, if you will, is cross dresser unless you call the skirt a kilt. Then it is just another male fashion statement. If we accept the premise that enough exposure to men in dresses will "normalize" it to just another fashion choice, i.e. not cross dressing.
I reject the notion that a MIAD is TG. He does not identify as female, is not trying to appear female. He is simply wearing what he pleases. That is just fine, of course, but the motivation is not the same, at all. I realize that I am generalizing rather broadly but as I said, labels fail. To be sure, some MIADs are motivated by genuinely TH feelings, but the single item of clothing does not define the person who wears it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
But they do just that! Until they are shown another way. And even then, the majority stick to what they 'know to be true'.
Think of the children of bigots. Do you really think that Mummy & Daddy bigot don't teach their kids to be baby bigots?
Another: Children of abused/abusive parents are more likely to end up in abusive relationships. Why? Because they have grown up thinking that it is normal.
Another: Children of alcoholics/addicts ted to become alcoholics/addicts themselves, partly due to genetic disposition, but also because their home lives normalize the behaviors.
A quick search of.the web asking the purpose of applying makeup is very revealing. Basically, two answers stand out. The first is to highlight features that already exist. As a man, it would not help to look more manly when the goal is just the opposite. The second is to alter ones appearance. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "hide" but it is all just semantics. Is not the purpose of beard cover to hide the blue tinge commonly found on a freshly shaven face? Other cosmetics can hide blemishes and regulate skin color for the next step. I totally understand you wanting to express your feelings through makeup and I don't think anyone here would want to deny you that right. But, when we strip it down, you are altering your appearance from looking like a man to trying to look like a woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
Aunt Kelly,
Again you make too much sense. When I learned on here that we are either cisgender or transgender, and a crossdresser can't be cisgender, I was, like, what? I have always stated that I do not think I am a woman, I do not feel like a woman, I do not want to be a woman or even pretend to be one. I actually have no problems with my gender. I know I will.get blasted for this viewpoint but I would like to agree with you 100% when you reject the notion that a MIAD is transgendered. Thank you.
Jodie,
I know what some of those descriptions mean , my father drank heavily and was a bully, and it did affect me , my rights were never given a thought as a child. I always vowed to do the opposite of the way he lived his life, that's is aside from my CDing issue . He died at 53 and no one missed him. My family think far more of me despite my CDing , they all know now but have never seen me. My decision was not to let them find out until they were adults and old enough to understand and deal with it . I stand by that , they needed us to support them I didn't use them to support me , they all respect me for that . Now I have their support when I need them, I stood up for and protected their rights, I didn't abuse and ignore them .
Tracy,
If you want to continue that analogy, it is therefore vain for a man to shave everyday, being clean shaven is not natural, perhaps it's a very small step in feminising ! I am altering my appearance to align with how I feel inside , it's a trait of AGP to me , I want to be seen and accepted as a woman , that's why MIAD doesn't work for me , it's a contradiction to the way I feel and look .
How do you even know they were a crossdresser? Did you ask them? Maybe they're a non-binary individual and that's their way of dressing and living authentically. Some non-binary and genderqueer people dress in 'women's clothes' but do not shave at all - such as Jacob Tobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayshave
Not everyone who is assigned-male-at-birth (AMAB) needs to present as a stereotypical female. Maybe this person was dressing and presenting as their true non-binary/genderqueer selves. But instead you judged them as a crossdresser who isn't up to your standards. That's not cool.
I don't comment here that often anymore.
Back in the older ages (1970s), few CDs would do so publicly. And most at that time that I knew were older with some younger. As a transitioning TS, the older ones always talked of blending in and passing. Not a great time to be public about being TS or CD.
Since I have come back to the LGBT community I have had to reconsider presentation for others. Yes I do tend to judge but let others decide how and when they dress.
Some of the younger CDs do present very well, and they definitely pass in club or private settings. Some of the older tend to dress way to young or ****ty, but that is what they intend. I have seen quite a few that are NB or Gender Fluid or Gender Queer or non-confirming. I find their presentation interesting, not to my tastes, but that is their decision.
I see the same in the TG/TS population also. As they progress they do tend to go more to the blending phase. And quite a few do so very well.
As to the children, some of the families do expose them in a loving manner to all this. I think this is good for the future.
I agree, we tend to judge people by look and behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayshave
However, I think we should not do that when we see anotherCD.
One question, do you also judge women by their looks?