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II don't know were I stand on this subject. When I am Drab I want to be seen as a 'normal man'. When I am me I want to be seen as me. If me is perceived as a female all the better. If seen as a MIAD that is fine but then I need to work much more on my presentation. I want to blend. Sexual encounters are not my objective, period.
I don't like the phrase toxic masculinity because women can be extremely toxic as well.
I was married to two extremely toxic women so I do have first hand experience with them.
I have a real repulsion of current buzz words.
Out at works do last night I was admiring my female workmates and how good they looked,and how gorgeous their outfits were,but I wouldn't say I was objectifying them,not in my mind anyway I was up dancing with them all night but just as workmates and friends,we can admire women,their looks,personality etc there really is nothing wrong with that.
P.S. My view of women,a cpl of them at least,was altered by the end of this same night,as they got involved in a hair pulling,down on the ground,punches thrown cat fight,I would objectify them at my peril
Sophie
Its guys that have been beaten down socially/emasculated by feminism that feel like they are objectifying women.
They really aren't objectifying they are really just admiring but they now think somehow that is wrong.
I say admire away and be a man about it and own it if thats what you want to do.
Most women would like a guy to admire them and not sit in the corner scared to speak up if you like how a woman looks.
Most women I know like a man that acts like a man not a wuss even if that man likes to CD every now and then.
I asked a few women I know really well and said how do you feel about being objectified?
One said it depends on what was said, the next said yes please i love feeling like a woman that guys like/lust after.
The other one said she never really thought about it yet she didn't care for cat calling.
My point is its a very natural thing all humans do it maybe some more than others and to different degrees.
Lets not try to legislate human nature.
Since I've been a member here, a bit over a year, and nearly 500 posts, one of the things that has really stunned me, is the lack of understanding and the lack of empathy that many people on this board seem to have with women. I suppose that this thread throws some of the reasons why into focus, in that men, yes, men in general, so yes, a bit of a generalisation, but certainly enough men to make it an indentifiable trend, do objectify women, and that many on this board, seem to dress, in order to achieve the perfect look that they seek in both the best woman that they can be, but also that then logically extends to their view of women in general. However much the women haters on this board, and sadly ther do seem to be some that pop up, jump up and down and stamp their little foot, there is a real world out there that real women have to live in, and it's not a world of their making.
I'm objectified by male and female as I'm Pan, Is it cool? XXXX No!
Being Objectified as a beautiful entity is precious!
Stacy!
I’ve been concerned about this, too, Monica. I don’t want to judge or reduce any human but have wondered about my CD preference for exaggerated female clothes - lace, sexy lingerie, etc representing an underlying chauvinism. But then in real life, working with lots of women, I don’t see myself acting or thinking that way at all. It’s as if I have a hypothetical female image that I want to look like, and then another real,world image of women as people. Hope I’m not fooling myself.
I feel that I dress for myself, but I also ask myself why, if I dress completely for myself, did I feel compelled to start going out?
So I can't completely deny there is a need for the representation of how I feel on the inside to be seen by others outside. However it is for myself in the sense that I don't expect women to wear what I do ( nor other men, although I would welcome it from other men for the sake of the movement ).
I do not expect women to look a particular way, lest they expect me to look like a model man. But if I see a woman wearing clothing that I like ( presumably of her own choosing ), I do wish I had the freedom to wear the same clothing as functionally as she does.
I don't have expectations of how other CDers dress other than whatever makes them happy - blend, not blend, whatever. We interact on this board because the society doesn't embrace what we do to make ourselves happy. So it's better that we don't do it to others - especially not in house.
I might get judged on appearance; I've been judged on appearance my entire life. If I wear a miniskirt on one day, and slacks the next day, which one gets used to judge me? Most likely the one that's most convenient to make their argument.
- Lydianne.
How I think about some women (not all) is based on their personality not their gender.
There are some women I adore to be around because they are good people.
We can go out as a group and have a wonderful time.
Its their actions and respect for human dignity that make them fun to be around.
We love each other as friends and I would do anything to help them in a time of need because they deserve to be treated with honor and dignity.
Same goes for true male friends as well.
So I am not some hateful a hole that hates ALL women. Treat me with respect and I will treat you the same way.
Lydianne I wish there was a like button to push for you last post amen!
Philli, I am seeing so many women dress down now, and i think many American women do not want men watching them. I almost never see a dress or skirt in the town i live in, I do see dresses on Amish or Mennonite women here,but a skirt or dress is extremely rare here, in small town midwest. But, this is most everywhere in the USA now. I watch old television shows, and see very few women in pants. SIGH... those days are long gone. I must say, that i am no longer looking to date nor meet women, anymore. I have given up, and quit now. at age 64. Women don't want nor need men nor RESPECT men anymore. And I can understand some of it, because of porn making women as only sex objects.. I do not dress that often anymore, but have had ads on Adultdriendfinder.com, as Alice, and got only replies from men wanting penetration sex, which i will not do. So, i can understand why many women are afraid of attracting unwanted male attention and advances. HOWEVER, the feminist movement has tarred and feathered ALL MEN, as predators. VERY BAD. Like DRS, I am into Alice, and autogynephillia . I do not see any middle age or senior attractive single women in my area. Alice is my lady.
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I agree Tracii, that being male has been terribly devalued in western society. Far more men are depressed now, than ever before. Suicide is way up in men now! When being male is considered not needed, predatory, toxic, then many boys and men will become DISENFRANCHISED, LONESOME, ANGRY, and do violent things sometimes and end their misery and depression, with alcohol, drugs, violence, and suicide. Modern society has become a hazardous place emotionally and mentally for males. If women no longer want or need men, society will crumble and die from within. I have some women friends, and love them as sisters, even if they are obese, or unattractive to me personally. The person within, whether male or female, or TG. But, cannot deny, that i am only attracted to very few women now. I am sick of a lifetime of feeling guilt and shame for being attracted to some women. My sister even hates men. Alice is the EVE, and my male side is Adam.
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Yes, Tracii, in modern America, there is a super pandemic tidal wave of toxic femininity, that is not being addressed. it is not just men who have problems. I wish we could all just humbly admit it. and the toxic media would be honest.
I hate to see men and boys being emasculated for the sense of being PC.
Let men be men and women be women let them be who they are.
Let trans or gay people be who they are, there is room for everyone but there is one segment that just will not allow that and wants the rest of the world to be as uptight and angry as they are.
I don't wish to be a part of that segment of society.
Monica,
We have varied reasons for presenting female whatever the level . My aim now I'm full time is to integrate , forget the passing question .
Being obsessed with the female form is a natural instinct , basically being sexual but that's where it becomes confusing for a CDer because we also have a need to appear female , the question is who do we want to obsess over us ?
Daisy,
AGP has always raised a heated debate , it's not my intention but I believe it's part of what makes me tick but it's not all to do with sexual gratification , it's a far wider spread of emotions .
Sadly this seems to have turned into one of those threads which has lost its way. This happens from time to time on any forum where conflicting rights rub up against each other. But when I look at the world that the young people are creating for themselves, that gives me hope. Me and my generation will soon depart the stage and with us those views forged in a different time, will simply fade, pass and be forgotten.
What a lovely, sweet group of girls on this forum! I feel so much better now, after reading all of these thoughts! I, Roxanne, hope that one day there will be more room in this old world for me! A world where I can wake up, put on my make-up, pretty dress, and heels, and go walking outside, free from any frights or worries except who might want to flirt with me! One day, maybe not in my time, but one day, this may really be out there! Oh, this girl really hopes so!
Roxanne "She Lives"
I am a woman and I dress and act the way I want at any particular time. I don't admire women or men and I certainly don't gaze at them. They go about their lives as I do mine. The way I look and dress is only done for me and not to compliment or objectify others. Anyway, there aren't many goth women out there anymore for me to be labeled as objectifying them.
I know the OP is asking a decent question and it makes for good conversation. But if we allow every little rule or conflict to come into our lives then we might as well become clones of each other and not risk upsetting anyone.
The OP does present a valid question. Men look at women. Women look at men. And, now it is also acceptable for men to look at men and women to look at women. There is still in everyone's dna a gene that tells everyone to procreate. For whatever reason people objectify different male and female forms. Got a large booty? There's a guy for you. Got a big bust? There's a guy for you.
So, if I as a man want to dress as a woman, then some sort of individual expression has to be involved. No? We've come a long way since Adam and Eve were limited to one type of fig leaf to cover up their genitalia.
Addressing the OP, I don't think anyone here is going out actively objectifying women by their choice of clothing, and it's right that anyone can make their own choices, within reason.
However, perhaps there is a danger that in presenting in a way that women, in increasing numbers, are choosing not to dress in everyday situaions we do them a disservice. Much of women's attire over the centuries, and in different cultures, has been dictated to either directly by men, or as a way of keeping women in their place in society. There are many examples, from corsets to foot binding. It's natural that women would see progress in being able to dress as they want without being judged. As a woman I might well look at an overly feminised CD and think that not only are they are behind the times but also making it harder for this progress to be accepted.
As a CD I choose to dress in a way which would be unremarkable for a women to be seen out and about in. I don't do this with any thought as to who I might or might not offend. It's just how I feel happiest when I check in the mirror, but I think I would feel uncomfortable wearing anything too overtly feminine. Maybe for a night out, but not for a trip to Sainsburys. Again, that's me, not a judgement on anyone else.
What surprises me is how a thread concerned with how our behaviour might affect women has been turned into an unnecessarily vociferous attack on women trying to progress their own position in society, as they have had to do for centuries. There will always be some extreme elements in any movement but they don't represent the majority and shouldn't be hauled out to defame feminism at any opportunity. If men are suffering in today's world, it's not women's fault. There are plenty of other things going on that we should be taking a closer look at.
Its an interesting topic and discussion. If you look at the dictionary definition of objectify it has two forms, one is negative it degrades someone as a sexual object... which I cant really see how a person dressing like a woman is doing this, even if they are striving to be that perfect woman. The second definition is expressing something abstract in a concrete form.. so perhaps some people are doing this, but if so whats wrong with that second definition?
Good point but I can't see where CDing is in any way shape or form objectifying women.
I will say people who seem to think that way may have other issues like thinking CDing is bad and all CDers are evil spawns of satan.
Tracii, if its turning an abstract form ie I wish I was a girl (if even for half an hour) into a concrete form of I am dressed like one, that fits the 'good definition' maybe?
My wife is very pro cross dressing, but she is also somewhat scathing of those who dress in a manner which clearly does objecify a women in a negative sense. Extreme heels, a common liking on these boards would be a case in point. I'm quite happy to take a view that we should pay respect to that manner of thinking. If we can remove this negative attitiude towards our dressing and our reasons for dressing then I'm sure that more of us would find approval easier from not only our nearest and dearest but also society as a whole.
Furhter, I would not seek approval from my wife of what I choose to wear but I wouldn't choose to wear something of which she disapproves and logically why would I?
I also have to agree with Rachel that it's a shame when threads like this come around there are those who seem to subscribe to the "those who shout loudest get heard" school of thought.
Finally, perhaps we should bear in mind that offence is in the ear of the hearer, not the mouth of the speaker.
Coudn't agree with those points more Charlotte. My wife is the same. On the days when I feel the need to be seen wholely as a woman and not androgenous I try to dress down to as casual and comfortable as I can, as any other woman might. My wife, on the otherhand, will often insist on further feminisation because she has confidence in my appearance and wants us both to look good (and therefore feel good about ourselves) as we go about our day together. She is fed up of the 'couldn't care less about my appearance' approach of society as a whole these days. BUT this additional feminisation that she likes for me (and her) is not in any way sexualising the image. It's a skirt instead of jeans, bigger earings, maybe a flowery scarf, that sort of thing, it's never high heels, short skirts, large boobs, bright red lippy and that sort of thing. I love my wife so much :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte7
Lydianne made a valuable point about observers choosing to respond to what fits their need to push back against something they don't feel comfortable with. Dressing is messaging, so bearing in mind Charlotte's wisdom - "offence is in the ear of the hearer, not the mouth of the speaker." what are we to do?
GGs have the same problem day in an day out,. as do men, as has been pointed out. Everyone is looking at everyone, interpreting the messages of their looks and overt actions, and reacting with negative, neutral, or positive judgement.
"Live and let live" gives each of us all the space we need in a cooperative world. A drag queen/MIAD/ blending CD who 'no one notices' [well, they do though, of course] are all making useful statements, most of which are missed by observers!
You are talking about Human Nature 101. Birds and Bees stuff and nothing more. Men do not "choose" to be "turned on" by a woman's level of attractiveness. It's programming and nothing more. Females DO CHOOSE how much effort they are willing to put in/go through to be more attractive to more men through the use of makeup, wigs, hairstyle/s, shapewear, form fitting clothes, nails, and most likely, the "perfect" bra that will show her "girls" to best advantage.
Now, I could be wrong, but I just don't see many employers REQUIRING women to do all that. Women can choose or not choose just how much effort/time/expense they wish to put in to being "more attractive".
Men could CHOOSE to put in way more time and effort on their own appearance. Few will because the payback for men is vastly different than for women. A man is more likely to receive "more attention" from more women if he is sporting a Rolex and driving a fancy car. Simple Reality.
None of this is changing anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by Rachelish