Co-worker approached me today and

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Originally Posted by MarcieM

Sure, you can report him and whatever, but this may very well turn out to be the kind of guy who waits for you on a dark parking lot with a tire iron. Who wins then?

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No, that's why he must be reported!

For more than a century, people have been repressed by the fear that someone would "get back at them later" -- that some "anonymous people" might come by and throw rocks at their windows or toss a lit brand at their house or put up a flaming cross or slash their tires or so on. Keeping quiet out of fear that this might be such a person gives the other person power: nothing is accomplished except to continue to live in the fear that the person will do it again whenever they choose and that "nothing can be done about it" because they might stalk you or attack you. The battle for freedom is won by turning light on people's actions, not allowing oneself to be intimidated by what the other person might do.

If an employee would do such a thing, then they would do such a thing with respect to more than one person, keeping multiple people "in their place" by fear. Having a problematic action on the record helps noticeably if legal action needs to be taken at some point, and can help encourage others to speak up.

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Originally Posted by Kimberly51

So maybe I should mention it to her, partly because he is talking with an outside service rep and making disparaging remarks about me to that person, which reflects on my companies reputation, not just mine.

What do you all think? Should I or shouldn't I, that is the question? :battingeyelashes:

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Well if you don't tell her, how can the company make a decision about any damage being done to it's reputation?

IMHO, they need to know - and given the comments in the past, I think you're on solid ground. There may be other things you're not aware of, so just pass on your evidence.

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

No, that's why he must be reported!
For more than a century, people have been repressed by the fear that someone would "get back at them later" -- that some "anonymous people" might come by and throw rocks at their windows or toss a lit brand at their house or put up a flaming cross or slash their tires or so on. Keeping quiet out of fear that this might be such a person gives the other person power: nothing is accomplished except to continue to live in the fear that the person will do it again whenever they choose and that "nothing can be done about it" because they might stalk you or attack you. The battle for freedom is won by turning light on people's actions, not allowing oneself to be intimidated by what the other person might do.

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The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you. I say reporting this person involves risk. If you're willing to take that risk, report him. If not, I'd say pretend like he doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by MarcieM

The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you. I say reporting this person involves risk.

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Telling someone to "Have a nice day" involves a risk that the other person might flip out and put some slugs in you or into someone you know. Safer to stay home all of the time and speak to no-one and let no-one in.

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Originally Posted by Kimberly51

When will people ever grow up.. :battingeyelashes:

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NEVER! My wife always says..... "Life is like High School. There will always be bullies and antagonists."

and to quote Madeline Cahn, "It's Twue, It's Twue!"

Tara

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

Telling someone to "Have a nice day" involves a risk that the other person might flip out and put some slugs in you or into someone you know. Safer to stay home all of the time and speak to no-one and let no-one in.

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whatever works for you...

Ladies,

There is one thing that I do not see being listed here that should be. Sexual Harassment does NOT have to be reported by the victim. If someone else witnesses an act of sexual harassment (yes, THIS IS sexual harassment because it makes YOU feel uncomfortable and creates a hostile work environment) and is offended by it, whether or not the victim is offended by it, they can report it as such. Once it has been reported to HR, it then becomes HR's responsibility to investigate the complaint and take appropriate actions.

Your friend who told you about these comments can take it to the HR department on your behalf and report it. Since the comments are being made "behind your back", the odds are you will not be suspected as being the one who reported the offender. The only problem here is that you then become a part of the investigation, and it could effect your situation at work. I commend you for coming out at work and being able to dress as you are, however when you made the decision to do this, you also should have understood (which your previous posts state that you did), the possible consequences of those actions.

My recommendation is that you can either 1) Report it yourself. 2) Ask your friend to report it. There is a third option, however I do not recommend it and that is to "Let it go". If you let it go, it will continue and possibly escalate further which would in fact result in creation of an even more hostile work environment.

Kandis:love::rose2:

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Originally Posted by KandisTX

My recommendation is that you can either 1) Report it yourself. 2) Ask your friend to report it. There is a third option, however I do not recommend it and that is to "Let it go". If you let it go, it will continue and possibly escalate further which would in fact result in creation of an even more hostile work environment.

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There's actually a fourth option.
4) Stop dressing femme at work. And very possibly the harrasment will stop and this will blow over.

Ask yourself this question: Is it really worth it? Even if it is about proving a point that you're entitled to wear whatever you want, is it worth it?

I just want to say I admire you for your courage.

I like your soft look. I know I am going against the grain here, but I am really surprised you do not have it a lot worse than you do.

I would never dare. I do not think I would survive where I work.

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Originally Posted by MarcieM

There's actually a fourth option.
4) Stop dressing femme at work. And very possibly the harrasment will stop and this will blow over.

Ask yourself this question: Is it really worth it? Even if it is about proving a point that you're entitled to wear whatever you want, is it worth it?

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You are correct MarcieM, I did forget that option. I have often wondered myself IF it would be possible for me to dress more femme at work, but the idea of having to come out and knowing what could happen in my line of work. (I am in corporate sales), I have decided that it is not worth the risk to my families financial future. I have 11 years seniority at my job and the thought of starting over again at a much lower paying job just does not appeal to me.

Kandis:love::rose2:

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Originally Posted by MarcieM

The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you. I say reporting this person involves risk. If you're willing to take that risk, report him. If not, I'd say pretend like he doesn't exist.

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I'm really glad your 'reality' is not mine..

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

I'm really glad your 'reality' is not mine..

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The feeling is quite mutual.

From reading the post's so far, it seems there is a consensus as to what to do. Tell my HR rep what was said and let her sort out the issue.

Since I am not in the office this week I have decided to send a well worded email to her, outlining what was said to me, for her to talk with this other person who stood up for me. I have also sent an email to my supportive co-worker letting him know that HR will probably talk with him.

I told my HR rep that I don't have a problem with this employee, that he is entitled to his viewpoints, but when it it is extended and voiced to an outside service vendor that is when I need to talk to her. That it is unprofessional and possibly harmful to our companies image, I will let her proceed with the investigation of what happened.

I will let you all know what happens later this week. I want to express to all of my friends here on this site how the insightful thought's and advice help me grow as a woman, to be more confident in being me. Love Kimberly :battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by Kimberly51

I will let you all know what happens later this week. I want to express to all of my friends here on this site how the insightful thought's and advice help me grow as a woman, to be more confident in being me. Love Kimberly

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I'm confused by this post.
You say you want to "grow as a woman" when you haven't yet spoken up and told your employer that you're transitioning. Do you have a medical diagnosis as transsexual?

No, I do not have a diagnosis of being TS by a therapist or Doctor, but that does not mean I am not a TS, just means I'm not diagnosed TS.

As far as work is concerned, in previous conversations with my HR manager it has been mentioned by me, that I'm leaning towards being Transsexual and that sometime in the future (yrs off) I might transition from a Man to Woman.

As these feelings have only become prevalent in the last two years, I want to take my time and make sure that this is what I want to be.. that is why I am seeking out answers and looking for a good gender therapist who can help me decide what I am or where I am in my transgendered state. But at the present time I feel more Transsexual than Crossdresser. And yes, there is some confusion, but that comes with this journey at times.. :battingeyelashes:

if your going to go to work dressed don't you think you should dress all the way ?
i know it won't stop anything. boy did i get it too but some people just feel better when they can pick on someone else we are the bigger targets
so why can't you go fully dressed ? thanks :hugs:

There are a few points I would like to address for Kimberly and mainly based on Marci's posts.

First, you have the right to be yourself. Now we all know that workplaces are private property which can have rules that govern dress attire among other things. However, Kimberly already has had discussions with HR about her transgender issues and has stated that she has the full support of HR if she would like to transition. If I have read her posts correctly, Kimberly has been presenting as mostly female in appearance on an almost daily basis so in essense the transition has already begun at least in terms of the clothes. It also sounds as if Kimberly already has tenure in the company as well as good standing. If this was a workplace where she did not have support of the management and money is tight then I could see Kimberly having to give up dressing temporarily if it meant keeping food on the table and the landlord (or whatever) happy. This is clearly not the case here.

Second, the gossipy co-worker in question is clearly a disturbed individual but to what level we don't know. Safety may or may not be an issue here but it is something that has to be considered. I have dealt with many "disturbed" people and sad to say most of the time they are unpredictable. You never really know if confronting someone about something will wake them up, they will mature, and apologize accordingly or if they will go out to their car, load up a 12-gauge shotgun, come back, and start killing people. These days a lot of people are incredibly unstable, a lot of people are on medications for mental problems, and have violent tendencies. You don't want to live in fear but you don't want to look at the world through rose-colored glasses either. I have had to use physical force on people for mere confrontations. In other words, I nicely ask the person to stop doing something and they immediately resort to violence without any concept of the consequences. I have had people evicted from their apartments, fired from their jobs, and even arrested for violent and threatening behavior. I'm not proud of "ratting" on people especially since you do indeed have to watch your back later for potential retaliations. Unfortunately, this is the real world and there are a whole lot of crazies out there and if you don't believe me just pick up the morning paper.

Third, based on the second point I believe in standing for your rights but with caution. I have noticed that very rarely do problems just remain without going anywhere. They either escalate or de-escalate so if a problem is not dealt with accordingly, it will escalate. The comments may start behind someone's back, eventually become direct confrontations, and can lead to criminal behavior such as vandalism, threats, and ultimately violence. Some people are just all talk while others truly are dangerous. You just never know. I am not a psychologist, neither is Kimberly, or most of us here so you just don't know who you are dealing with and what they are capable of. Ignoring the person is not an option because again it will continue to get worse. I would strongly recommend that Kimberly contact HR immediately, to avoid all contact with the individual except as required for business purposes only, and also to not discuss the issue further with co-workers unless absolutely necessary. Co-workers can gossip too and Kimberly's comments could also get back to the individual.

Fourth, Marci's points made no sense. It is statistically unlikely that a mere confrontation with the individual by management will result in the person going postal at work. However, it does happen which is why you do have to watch your back and make confrontations carefully. However, you cannot go through life afraid to confront anyone for fear of violence. You can't live in a cave. You also should learn how to defend yourself. I have far better situational awareness skills than most people wandering around because I have practiced for years. I also carry weapons where appropriate and where allowed and I don't carry anything that I have not been trained on in terms of its proper use, the laws, and safety. It is important to be proactive in your life and not just reactive. Again, Kimberly should report the issue, let management deal with it, avoid unnecessary confrontations, and be aware of her surroundings if the individual is demonstrating threatening/violent tendencies. Always have an action plan in case just as you would for fires and other emergencies. Again, don't live in fear but don't live in a mindless bubble either. Marci's point to cease dressing is ridiculous. Kimberly has the support of her management. You can't go through life not doing the things you enjoy because of your fear that others don't approve. The final point made my Marci about Kimberly not being diagnosed as TS is irrelevant. You are who you are regardless of what some doctor thinks.

I hope my points have helped here. I don't want to scare you Kimberly but you should be careful in how you handle the situation but don't ignore it. It sounds to me like Kimberly is on top of the situation for the most part. Good luck, Britney

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Originally Posted by cd_britney_426

Marci's point to cease dressing is ridiculous. Kimberly has the support of her management. You can't go through life not doing the things you enjoy because of your fear that others don't approve. The final point made my Marci about Kimberly not being diagnosed as TS is irrelevant. You are who you are regardless of what some doctor thinks.

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No, my point is not ridiculous. This may very well be the best way to end all of the harassment.

This person has already told her employer that a transition is not what is happening right now. If this person had a medical diagnosis of TS, I guarantee you that it would be looked at much differently. As it stands right now, it's just looked at as some guy who wants to dress like a girl.

Here's the bottom line...society does not look favorably upon a feminized non-passable male in public like this. This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity. You can say whatever you want, but that's pretty much the reality of this situation. Is it Right? Is it Fair? No, I never said it was. It's the law of nature. Sure, you can try to "make a stand" but at what cost?

Things would be much easier for this person if they achieved a full femme look and not the appearance of a feminized male.

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Originally Posted by Katie B

...and so let the Mafia rule the world?

No, buddy, not my world.

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The Mafia? What have you been smoking?

Marcie, it doesn't seem like you have or understood all of the information. Kimberly hasn't even been harrassed (yet) and let's hope that doesn't happen. She already has co-workers who are supporting her in addition to management. Obviously, this isn't a case of "everyone harrassing at every opportunity" as you basically put it. Personally, I think it may be a better idea to go full femme but this isn't about what I want or you want but what Kimberly wants. There is someone at my job who is quite androgynous but as far as I'm aware he prefers to be treated as male and wears mostly male clothing except that he does wear makeup. Nobody has been harrassing him. I do have to say when you have some tenure in a company it helps. If you have been around longer than most others at work you have a sense of authority over them although only symbolically. Newbies aren't likely to cause problems for an old-timer because if the person has stuck around so long then the conclusion is generally made that the company respects them as a valuable asset.

I'd like to show up to work full femme but I'm not at that point yet. A lot of transgender people do transition slowly on the job because that is what they feel comfortable with. Gradual changes usally cause less of a shock or resistance than sudden changes. For instance, I go to work every day in drab but since April I have been keeping my arms shaved (among other areas) and anyone who cares to pay attention since I wear short-sleeved shirts would notice that my arms are too smooth and hairless for it to be simply coincidence. I have also been growing my hair out and it is almost to the level of being able to put it in a ponytail and I'm even starting to have bangs come down the sides of my head to some degree. These are tiny and slow changes that only get minimal notice. Perhaps the next thing will be doing my nails. I may do one thing at time and go from presenting as male to androgynous to eventually female but I'm not going to do a whole lot at once. You'd be surprised how when you cook the frog slowly it doesn't notice. Kimberly wasn't mentioning problems with multiple people at work so obviously her changes are probably barely noticed by the majority, noticed by some and accepted or at least not resisted, but only one single individual who has an issue with it. That's why your points about what society thinks, violence, etc. don't really make sense here because we are talking about one individual and not like the whole workplace is against her. Britney

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Originally Posted by cd_britney_426

That's why your points about what society thinks, violence, etc. don't really make sense here because we are talking about one individual and not like the whole workplace is against her.

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In my reading of the postings, it is not important to Marcie's position whether only a single person is upset or larger numbers of people are upset. All it takes is a single person waiting one night with a knife or a gun to get you an extended visit to the hospital or morgue. Therefore (in my reading of the posts), if even one person dislikes what is happening, Marcie recommends either dropping back to (public) normality (to remove the chance that the other party might freak out) -- or to make one's will and be prepared for the possibility of dying for one's earrings. Dealing with the situation through HR or a peace bond or similar is not recommended in Marcie's view, as that might trigger resentment and violence. In this world-view I gather that one should either hide oneself or prepare for the day that will come (not might come) of being physically attacked.


Of course, this position does neglect the point that what has set off some people is that the people around them "are all just sheep", blindly following everyone else, and since the role of sheep in the food chain is to be slaughtered, killing a bunch of "sheep" is no moral problem, or is perhaps even a "moral good" as it might "wake up" some people. Thus hiding behind normality is no fail-safe either.

Presumably Marcie follows some recipe of behaviour that leaves her safe from attack by crazies, including ones upset that (say) she didn't hold the door open for them -- or upset that she did hold the door open for them ("Are you implying that I am weak, that I can't get the door for myself?!" ), but, Alas, my imagination does not reveal to me what that recipe might be.

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

Presumably Marcie follows some recipe of behaviour that leaves her safe from attack by crazies, including ones upset that (say) she didn't hold the door open for them -- or upset that she did hold the door open for them ("Are you implying that I am weak, that I can't get the door for myself?!" ), but, Alas, my imagination does not reveal to me what that recipe might be.

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I'll be quite happy to reveal my recipe.
I don't leave my house CD-ed.
Let me tell you something.
No matter what you've heard - passing IS everything. If you don't pass 100%as a female, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
It's quite simple, really.

You can't expect universal acceptance in society.

Come on ladies. MarcieM has some valid points that I am sure we can all agree on. While not EVERYONE is freaking out about Kimberly, there is ONE person that is having issues with her. That one person is a seed, and that seed is germinating and will grow, and much like the spores of a fungus, it WILL spread.

Now, I'm not saying that Kimberly is any real immediate danger, and I don't think MarcieM is either. But, what IS being said is that this aspect of things is highly possible.

Does anyone recall the old television show hosted by Jenny Jones? Wasn't there a situation where a man revealed to one of his male friends that he was gay and was attracted to him, and the one that revealed the secret crush was shot and killed by the other? This is a somewhat similar situation although not being an "outing" of a crush on national television. Here we have a crossdresser, not a TS as Kimberly has stated she is NOT interested in transitioning at this time, who is dressing femme at work and has a person she works with that apparently has a problem with her doing so. We, all of us who have responded, have given Kimberly our advice and suggestions, but ultimately the decision of how to handle it is up to Kimberly. Please, let us NOT start saying that one of us does not have a valid idea or point. We are all living the same life, although some not to the extent of others. We are all sisters here right?

Kandis:love::rose2:

Since I am out of town this week, I have not been able to talk with my HR manager, I did email her about the comments that were relayed to me by a co-worker, who indicated support at that time. Since then he as reneged on his support. He is refusing to say he heard anything and refusing to say he spoke with me. I guess you learn who your friends are when you ask their support.

I suspect that my HR manager has spoken with the offending employee, because he has not spoken with the co-worker who heard the comments and who initially indicated support to me. I think he is afraid that if he says anything, this co-worker of his isn't going to speak with him. Fortunately, with harassment situations HR is obligated by company policy to investigate no matter what. I have not heard anything from my HR manager yet, but will check with her later this week.

I think in my heart I did the right thing. :battingeyelashes: