I've just bought a gorgeous green and gold dress. We can buy and wear what we want.
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I've just bought a gorgeous green and gold dress. We can buy and wear what we want.
Kelly-you are naughty!!!Mmmmh-like your new avatar.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by laurap
Thank you Laura....... Moi' naughty??? :heehee:
Kelly
Well said, Reine...! We should be so much more aware like you are, as to who is trying to influence us and affect our perceptions...Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
People are into crossdressing for different reasons, and have different preferences. Personally I am dress to look like a woman, and would not do guy-in-dress mode. But I do admire the courage and respect people who are doing that.
What I found less useful is to whine about the non-acceptance of the society. Talking and complaining is easy and won't help. The do-ers who do get out of the door are giants in action.
Image the women who fought for their right to wear pants a century ago. They faced a far more restrictive society, and a far less accepting public. Talking about the danger of being assulted, a woman back then should have more concern on that than a guy-in-dress now. Though these women pressed ahead and turned the society. They have my respect.
If the question is why the society can accept women wearing men's cloth, that is because they wanted it, fought for it, and got it. They deserve it.
Now go for what you want, and if you don't you deserve not having it.
No it doesn't mean you can whine about it, if you're out and about anyway, why did you whine? that makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by noname
And to those of you who think the world is going to end because you can't wear what you like... well it's not that you can't, it's because you don't have the balls, think about people in other countries, women, who get beaten by the law for wearing trousers/pants..
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=112878
Awww, Ze, I love you too! :D :love:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
..and those women who have submitted to domination and subjugation in countries where fundamentalist religious zealots rule deserve our fullest sympathy and support, as they are fighting a similar battle against prejudice, misogyny, and an unrelenting movement to "keep them in their place". Women in those countries should not fear getting 40 lashes for wearing pants or failing to wear a headscarf, just as we males with an affinity for women's clothing should not have to fear being the victim of a hate crime perpetrated by some homophobe. One type of violence may be institutionalized and the other more random and vigilante-like, but the end result to the victim will be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
It's all well and good to talk about b&lls or the lack thereof, but there is a significant difference between courage and recklessness, and having the equivalent of "He Had the Right of Way" inscribed on one's tombstone doesn't make the brave and righteous victim any less dead.
There are more intelligent ways to claim our rights to wear whatever type of clothing we wish besides an all-out confrontational approach, and each one of us here is proceeding in that direction at our own pace and in accordance with our own comfort levels. The vast number of CDers who are now out and about and claiming their rightful place in society is proof of that. And speaking for myself, I think that I am already showing plenty of b&lls going out cross-dressed and interacting with the general public without worrying about what others might think. I doubt that any of my macho jock friends would ever consider doing the same - they already get weak in the knees when their SO's ask them to pick up a box of tampons for them at the supermarket on the way home from work.
I really have a problem with the way the word "whining" ("whingeing ?") is being indiscriminately bandied about in this thread. Calling attention to an issue and talking about it does not necessarily put it into that category. Doing nothing about it, however, does, and nowhere has it been said here that we should simply accept the status quo when it comes to societal pressures that discourage males form wearing women's clothes while openly presenting as males. Boundaries are being pushed, it's just that women are already so far ahead of us on that score and have already staked out their territory. And yes, we have much to learn from them in that respect.
Hmm... soo much to say.
It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:
A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.
A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.
My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.
The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.
There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.
And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.
At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.
This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.
Women constantly adopt items from men's fashion including neckties, mens shoes, etc. The difference is that women just do it and don't act guilty and cower in the closet. Many crossdressers are ashamed about what they are wearing and choose to hide in the closet and act like they are doing something illegal. Until this attitude changes and they accept themselves, the situation will never get any better. Most women are individuals whereas most men are pack animals and don't want to seem different from the pack. Unfortunately they were taught this at a very early age. You have to accept yourself and get out there and be proud of who you are and what you are wearing. That is the only way to affect change.
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Originally Posted by Violetgray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie001
You are right about this. But my point was that this is easier said than done, and that perhaps the only reason that this door was opened to women at all was the absolute necessity of the times.
There are very few FtM crossdressers...Most FtM's are transgendered/transsexuals and, for us, it's NOT a simple matter of putting on men's clothes.....Transitioning entails a lot more than that....then we have to get out there and deal with the same things that you do...bathroom issues, passing, etc. Try stuffing yourself into a skin-tight, hot binder and wearing it everywhere you go all summer....You think we can just put on men's clothes and no one will notice the boobs? And, if they can, are you really cross-dressing? Not all FtM's go on testosterone....and, admittedly, testosterone DOES do a lot to help an FtM pass....but, you think clothes are enough for those who do not go on it to pass? No, it takes binding, making a lot of changes, cutting their hair, etc., and once you do all of that, do you really think they don't get harrassed like you do when they ARE read? You have obviously not seen Boys Don't Cry....There are lots of good old boys out there who would just LOVE to kick the asses of "uppity chicks who dare to think they are men", trust Me on that. The point is, we ALL have problems....Why do we have to constantly debate whose are worse??? Geez. :Angry3:Quote:
By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do.
You kind of prove my point here. A physical woman who is transitioning to be a physical man would like to be excepted as such, and is that is his right. But I think that you would agree that this isn't the same as a woman who casually wear men's clothing. But go back to the original post. It was about being able to casually wear the clothing of the opposite gender. That's what the "envy" is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
And one thing that you are right about is the "Who has it worse" competition. I tried my best to avoid that (FAIL) but, it seemed to me as though "Look what the ftm's have to put up with" was being used to invalidate the feelings of mtf's who felt this way, and I was simply pointing out that the comparison (which has not much to do with ftm or mtf ts's at all when you think about it) is not really balanced.
This only turns into a debate when FtM's are brought into it...and it was several times in the thread...A GG who wears men's clothes is not an FtM....They are two completely different things....That was My only point....One thing we can definitely agree on, cd or trans of either gender, it isn't easy, that's for sure.
That's a very good point. So I'll back off my earlier comments a bit. Not completely, but I accept your point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet Gray
I wish it was fully ok for a guy to wear women's cloths out in public without trying to pass. I know I can't pass, but would it be so wrong if I wanted to wear a dress.
I wish it was, too....and I believe that it eventually will be....hopefully sooner, not later....that's one of the things we are all fighting so hard to achieve....cd, trans, whatever and whoever you are....it's your right to BE that...and nobody has the right to tell you how to be or what to wear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Green
The world is full of imbalances and injustices. Male superiority is one of them. It is what it is. A woman could, and I expect many do, complain about this. Or, she could choose to be proactive and do her bit to advocate for women's equality. And then post about that somewhere, alongside her feelings of frustration if she needs to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
Some people look at the glass half empty. It is their prerogative, but it doesn't solve anything. In fact, it can even incite others to stay focused on the problem.
Yes, this forum is a good place to vent feelings of envy and frustration. Everyone has days when they feel discouraged. But it is hard for women not to feel blamed after reading comments like this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
...you seem to be among the few who actually "got" what I was trying say in the first place in my original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
The irony in all of this, of course, is that the essence of this discussion might become academic anyway in a few short generations. New evidence is being brought forth every day that the males of most species are becoming endangered and at risk of becoming extinct altogether.
There are strong indications that all of the pollution in our environment and the tens of thousands of synthetic chemicals which have been introduced into our world over the last 50 - 60 years with little consideration for the long term effects (think DDT, Dioxin, and Agent Orange, among others) are particularly damaging to males. Birth rates of males vs. females have been dropping at an alarming rate in many countries, and in many cases genital development to full maturity is being stunted. The "Y" chromosome which defines "maleness" is also under siege, and carries far fewer genes than it used to - to the point of soon becoming redundant. Even sperm cells will no longer need to come from males in the near future - they will soon be replicated in laboratories, what with all the advances in stem cell research these days.
So eventually, we will all be females anyway, and what used to be considered male clothing will become unisex in the true meaning of the word.
Will that then relegate "traditional" female clothing such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose, and high heels to a historical curiosity, only to be worn by role-playing actors seeking to emulate the culture of a bygone era, much like Renaissance fairs or Civil War re-enactments :hmph::eek:?
Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.
Yes, I think current male and female clothing will be relegated to the historical closet. This happens with every generation. But with the advent of a unisex society, I expect we'll see an entirely new fashion style, one that is a complete departure from anything remotely connected to gender styles as we know them now, and made with nanomaterials engineered to continuously change along with our bodies as we age. This will eliminate the need to replenish outfits every season. I expect the new outfits will fit like a second skin, making it seem as if we have nothing on, and they will also be engineered to be self cleaning. I imagine that this fabric will have the ability to take on one of millions of colours and patterns that have been programmed into it, such that we will be able to change our look on a whim. No. Better yet, the nanofabric will monitor our brain activity somehow and it will continuously change it's surface appearance based on our changing moods and physiological well-being. And we'll never have to take our second skins off, since they will also be sensitive to climate changes and they will always keep our bodies at an ideal temperature. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
(Written because it was fun to imagine, not out of malice or sarcasm) :hugs:
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Originally Posted by kellycan27
:iagree: Go girl
:ukflag:
.
.
You make assumptions here. Do you know whether or not this person or that is trying to do their part in some way? More importantly, do you know what it means for each person? For some, their jobs, their marriages, their lives as they know it are at stake. I agree that progress isn't going to make itself, but it's often more complicated than that, and I can't blame some people for feeling helpless.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
The general idea I get from this post is that "If you're not some sort of activist then you have no right to feel this way." This is backwards. You have to feel like things aren't fair BEFORE you can do anything about it.
There's a BIG difference between something you can change, like the clothes you wear, and something that grows attached to you, like boobs. Making the decision to wear a dress is VERY different than making the decision to have boobs. Also, who are the "A lot of us who made a stand?" Wouldn't this contradict your "But no one wants to step up to the plate" sentence earlier?Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
...those nanomaterial second skin suits sound pretty awesome, but somehow I can't imagine that wearing one of them will come even remotely close to the wonderful feel of silky, lacy panties against my tush, the way sheer and gauzy pantyhose feel against my freshly shaved legs, or even the delightful sensation of wearing light, airy, and filmy camisoles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars :hugs::D.
Says you. :tongueoutQuote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....:DQuote:
If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars .
<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack). :eek:
Now you've gone too far, Trey. :spank: :D :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl :devil:
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
And yes, Pops, boxers are very comfy!
Why not......you stud. :D :battingeyelashes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
And Ze........boxer's comfy ? ewwww (for me).........but I bet you look great in them. :o :hugs:
...think of crossdressers as being like those struggling artists who suffer for their art.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
As they say, "No pain, No gain" :D:tongueout.
Oooooohhh, I get it now! So MtF CDers are really just masochists, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
*runs* :D
I was going to say dental floss... although that's not clothing... Sharon said my thongs were like dental floss :cry: but they keep my butt warm!!! And crack? seriously? can't you tell you're a man.... :slap: and in front of the kids :eek: TREY!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
...and we're all in this together, you impertinent little whipper-snapper :tongueout - just from opposite ends of the spectrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze
Like we actually chose our respective lifestyles/gender orientations just because life wasn't complicated enough as it is:eek:!!!
Not at all. I am saying that if you aren't willing to try and change something,what do you actually hope to accomplish? Somebody else should do it? Someone else should make the sacrifice on my behalf? I am by no means an activist, I have said many times that I believe individual effort is what it is going to take to make change. For the same reasons that you yourself stated earlier. Fear of losing jobs,family,friends, society, self loathing, not being able to accept themselves,division of groups within the group. Transsexual, cross dressers,gay,bi, F2M. Too much in fighting to mount a united front. I don't want to be associated with being gay. I man man, he feels like he's a woman.. I don't want society to lump me together with.. those people.I don't want to, I don't care, I am happy with the way things are. It's my thing and I don't want to share it. What is fair? Who ever said that life is fair? Is it fair that children word wide starve to death? is it fair that people lose their life saving through scam artists? Is it fair that people lose their loved ones to violence or illness.. It's just a fact of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
The a lot of us who have made a stand are the ones who are out there living the way that they want to live. the ones who are not afraid to venture out dressed as they see fit, the ones who ignore the rude remarks and jokes. The ones who who don't fold to the pressure of so called society. Read the threads... I went out. I did it. I travel here, I travel there. I shop,get my hair and nails done. Go to the mall, go to restaurants, bars.Quote:
There's a BIG difference between something you can change, like the clothes you wear, and something that grows attached to you, like boobs. Making the decision to wear a dress is VERY different than making the decision to have boobs. Also, who are the "A lot of us who made a stand?" Wouldn't this contradict your "But no one wants to step up to the plate" sentence earlier?
When I say that "no one is willing to step up to the plate" I am reffering to those who complain, but don't do anything to change things. it's not fair, but don't count on me to do anything about it.
My reference with regards to "boobs" was an attempt at sarcasim...it was obviouly lost on you, as you took me quite literally. The point that I was trying to make is that ... I believe that that sometimes people take things a bit too far. IMHO, after reading post after post in regards to fear and unacceptance I truly believe that even if the so called social taboos no longer existed... a lot of these people would find other excuses as to why they can or cannot do this or that. I think that sometimes "society" is used a crutch. it's not perfect, but things are changing. again, look a through the posts on coming out.. How many success stories are ther compared to failures? Doesn't that tell us something? How many closeted ones cite fear of society as opposed to the ones who make that leap of faith? Doesn't it make you wonder? I won't venture out because "society" doesn't accept me.
I know that there are exceptions so you need not bring up your town of 10 people etc. Suffice to say that yes there are exceptions.
Got it. You all are masochists and we're sadists. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
Or at least Trey is. :shush:
...I came across this article in today's Toronto Star which is in the same vein as the original one I flagged when I started this thread.
http://www.thestar.com/living/fashion/article/680050
Gurls - run, don't walk, to the nearest shoe store and grab all those stilettos and girly shoes off the shelves before they run out and are replaced by menswear style brogues etc., which appears to be the coming trend.
Yuck! No, make that double yuck! What's a self-respecting crossdresser supposed to make of all this :sad::eek::thumbsdn:?
Yeah. Exactly what I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidia_tv
Now that the manufacturers of women's jeans understand that men are buying these jeans in ever larger numbers, I'm sure someone is getting the point that there is a profit possibility here, and there is no need to be radical about it.
A slow evolutionary change can bring about a massive change in what is "chic" or "in" or even "acceptable" for the well-dressed male to wear! A few years ago white shirts were the only acceptable formal dress. Today I don't own a white shirt (except tux shirts)! Purple and Pink are totally acceptable. More than that, I always get terrific compliments when I wear those colored shirts (from women).
So, all you influential folks...get out there and make it clear to clothing designers and manufacturers that they are missing a massive profit potential but not slowly making a slowly and slightly ever-more feminine set of male-oriented clothes available! I lost 35 pounds a few years ago an when I bought new jeans my wife thought they looked terrible, so I now by size 8 low-rise jeans and they fit terrific (size 10 if they are not low-rise!).
Let's get out there and promote the greed and profit factor, and I'm sure that inequity will disappear in 20 years!
:)
tina
How I have come to understand myself, is that I actually would be happier in a society where there were dresses designed for men and it was acceptable to wear them. I'd like to extend that to the fabrics, colours and patterns, lace and silk and such, soft and bright colours, frills.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Since understanding myself better, I now understand why I pick the male clothes I wear and a lot of what me attracts to feminine clothes are choices that just are not available in men's wear in fabrics and colours and patterns.
Besides that wearing a skirt or dress just is a nice feeling, much better air flow and less chaffing in certain areas.
I had never looked at it like that. I can see how that's frustrating in a way too. One of the reasons I visit this forum, is to hear opinions like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne66
In the end I think my personal desire would be a world where there is no real distinction between masculine and feminine, and everything is accepted for everyone. I that sense I am different from a lot of people here I think, in that a lot of people just wish to be on the other side, not to merge both sides.
Very well put. But it still scares me. I hope one day I'll have the courage, coming to this forum has been my first step, I hope I'll make more, but I'm very much a coward.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieSD
I've been thinking about this. Can it be that part of what makes us "whiners" who we are, is that we lack some of the male drive and guts to act and do what we should? I don't want to insult GG. Part of what makes me have problems as identify as male is that I don't identify with all the testosterone driven madness I see in a lot of GMs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
I also never had much lust for thrillseeking or amusement park rides.
I'm not defending my own inaction, just trying to understand myself, and see if there are others who feel like me.
I can fully agree with this. Some heels are ok though, if they're not too high.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
It'll never fly, it's way too trendy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
I see there are quite a few GG's that disagree with this statement. Yet, pretty much any woman can put on genuine male clothing, from head to toe, and walk into home depot without a stitch of makeup, hair tucked under a baseball cap, buy a boatload of such things like lumber, nails, cement, tools, etc., loading up their orange wagon while wearing work gloves, and no one would give a crap or even give her a second glance; and keep in mind I'm not including her doing any male specific 'over the top' behavior either, just wearing all male attire and behaving normally. My ex wife did this all the time back when we were married (much to my disappointment, I really would rather have had her dress up a bit more girly much more often).Quote:
The truth: Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.
But let a guy wear a short, tight skirt with all the rest of the girl clothes, A cup bra with no padding, frilly top, heels, stockings, jewelry, make up and hairstyle, really female specific items, etc, and go shopping for the day in the ladies clothing section of Bloomingdales or such, and he'll get a very different experience, even if he doesn't change any of the rest of his behavior, you know, still walks like a guy and talks like a guy. GG's CAN get away with way more than we can in this regard.
This is right on target, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Blah, blah, blah. wear it and be proud.
You should have seen the envy on the faces of the girls at the Tavern on Monday night when I came dowm stairs in my pink silk jacket & dress and 4.5" strappy sandals. I don't know if they knew I was a guy, but I could see the jelousy and feel their eyes on my back. They probably all wished they could look good in a 8P dress and walk well in really high heels!
Check out the babe in the hot pink
http://www.transvamp.com/events/pictures/0809/index.php
All The Best.
Ann / SS
Trey,Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTrey
LOVE this post and the one by TGMarlas as well. They say everything that needs to be said. Whatever boat you we are in... getting along and supporting one another can make a difference in the long run.
*hugs*
Zarabeth
I just got a flyer in the mail promoting the new Fall 2009 upscale "Pure" line by designer Alfred Sung, who is now showcasing some of his fashions through Canadian retailer Zellers ("Target" wannabe).
What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan. The only hint of true femininity is the fact that she is wearing modest black heels and what appear to be either patterned trouser socks or tights.
Grrrr! If you're gonna raid my closet, then I'm gonna raid yours :thumbsdn:. Consider yourself warned! :tongueout:D
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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
Guess you missed the blaring obvious then ........... the fact that she is Feminine and that you saw that straight away .......... the clothes are just that, clothes :brolleyes:........... her femininity comes from within .......... as it does for all of us who know our true femininity (yes I include all the girls in here who believe themselves to be feminine:))
Nice idea but I don't know how you decide on true femininity
Oh and I am sure the model did not raid your closet
From a blending in point of view I guess that should make crossdressing easier then!! :heehee::heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
There is nothing to stop you wearing anything you like, apart from yourself, women have exactly the same right, so where's the problem?