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Sheila, that's great, it really is. But I would hazard a guess that you guys' situation is vastly different than ours was. Not inferior in any way, just vastly different. Trust me, in our ultra-conservative environment, with us and our kids being as plugged in as we were, the fallout would have been horrendous, apocalyptic. I literally could not live with myself if I had allowed that to happen.
Well, maybe you could .....ummmm.....work making Texas less ultra-conservative? Then things would be better and you wouldn't have to worry about fallout? Would make Texas nicer to live in for GLB folk too. Or you could always move to someplace a bit more accepting (anything north of the Ohio and east of the Mississippi would do)Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
Coming out is a good thing. The shame, guilt, depression and fearsome of us had (or still have) is a bad thing. When I told my family back in 93-94 one thing they said was that they were saddened that I did not trust their love in me enough to tell them.
And as for marriage, wouldn't it be better to tell before marriage to give the prospective parther a choice in the matter, rather than lie for years, have her find the stash and be more angry about the deception than the actual crossdressing?
Veronica Rogers
In the end, there's only two possible reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
(1) Because they want to
(2) Because they feel they have to
The individual motivations behind why they want to, or why they have to are personal, varied, and often impossible to put to paper.
See above - it's exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
The only thing that I think is too bad is some of us are closeted because they're feeling shame, guilt, or other feeling of "not normal".
In my opinion, you should be out to your SO no matter what. Anyone else is optional. There are a number of folks here that are quite active and out. That's their personal choice, and they're welcome to it. Then there's a bunch that are hidden away deep. Also their personal choice, and they're also welcome to it. I just wish these two groups would be more tolerant of each other.
I don't really think that it's about being out, or being closeted. It's about who you should trust. You should trust your SO - it's almost an imperative to do so before your lives are interlinked. For her to find out after so many years - at that point there's no way that it's "just clothes" to her - and to think so makes you a fool.
To anyone that tells me that I should be out and in the public's face, presenting my cause, and flying the flag to make this a better world for all of us, I say: come here and say that.
Are there any school teachers here? How long do you think you get to keep your career once out? It really is a sad fact of life - but for certain careers, the accusation of some kind of oddity, particularily one that the media might attach "perversity" to, and you're done. Seems to me that if the guy likes his job more than dressing, staying in is the right choice. Either way, Mr. Closeted Teacher probably has a better chance of changing the world's attitude than Ms. Out Plumber. Better for the world that he keeps his job, no?
Point is, everyone has their reasons. Maybe they're good reasons, like keeping a spouse, or a job, or your head. Maybe they're bad reasons, like being ashamed, ignorant, or decitful. It isn't for any of us to push our will on another.
Forgive me, I post on here so much I guess I assume sometimes that people know more about me than they do. In point of fact, I do go out all the time, and I do fight the good fight, as best I can anyway. And I'm fairly active in the GLBT community. I may be only partially out, and I'm careful about the ways in which I'm out, but I'd say I'm farther out of the closet than many, maybe most, of the CDers I know or know of. And I would say I've had some small impact over the years, hopefully for the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit
But my kids are grown and gone, and I'm divorced (unrelated to CDing). And for the third time, I just can't stress enough the difference between being willing to take the hits myself and subjecting loved ones to the ordeal. There are things in life more important than me wearing a skirt.
No offense, but I'd rather eat glass than live back east. I tried that once, not good. I'm a westerner through and through. But relocating west of the Big River sounds nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit
The other side of that coin is that there can be some serious fallout to coming out, in some cases calamitous. You'd have to be mainlining pink fog not to be aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit
That is very poignant, it really is. I have a great deal of respect for that perspective. But you gotta admit, it might not be a representative reaction. And even when they do react with such compassion, that still doesn't mean there are no negative consequences, especially if you come out to more than just your family.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit
You're preaching to the choir here. Again, if you were to peruse my posts, you would find me to be a staunch advocate of that very sort of thing, going all the way back to my earliest posts back in 2005. So I've been at this awhile. And for the record, I did not crossdress while I was married and raising kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit
But more to the point, hell yes, it is far better to put the cards on the table, for yourself and others, before you begin a marriage and start having kids. Unfortunately, many of us either lack that courage and foresight, or we don't discover this about ourselves until after the fact, and in that case, we have a moral obligation to honor the commitments we've made, the lives we've begun and the hearts entrusted to us. There are things in life more important than me wearing a skirt.
Amen to that! :PaulaJaneThomas:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaire
Because we want to share who we are with the world. We want to be able to talk to our friends and family about what we do online, what we did during the day, what we saw while we were at walmart, target, the mall, etc...We want to share about the clothes we tried on, how girls snickered at us at the mall, how I was fully accepted at the bar. How we love being a man, but sometimes we want to be soft, wear soft, be submissive and not be JUDGED. We want to share how thrilling it was driving down the interstate and either nobody noticed or SOMEBODY noticed us. We don't want to HAVE to hide! We want the option of being male and female and that is not accepted by very many people. But like any society, we want to be accepted for who we ARE in our whole being, not just the person we ALLOW our friends, coworkers, FAMILY to see. (PREPOSITION)
We want to be FREE!!!!!!!!!:o
Brina
Mea culpa. I have painted everyone here with a broad brush and I am repentant. I should never have said "all" and I am sorry for that.
I also said I am done with this thread, but since I ws asked a specific question I'll answer it. It does not matter if I have children or not. It don't have, so your point is what? That I don't have the ability to see that some people here that do are raising them to see other people as bad, less than human or strange? I though that went out in 1969 but I see that pockets still exist. Children are not born prejudiced. we teach them to be. I don't care one way or another if someone buries themselves in self pity and cries that they are not understood by society in general. That is you. I do care when I see people teaching their children to look down upon someone, whether by race, creed, color, religion or any thing else (read what they wear). Parents have the ability and option to show their children what is right (acceptance, love, forgiveness) or wrong (prejudice, fear and hate). Tell me is it better to wait until your son or daughter is 21 before you show who you are? How exactly does this change anything? And your parents have their own ideas, but should we not try and educate them. Mine still love me even if I am not perfect in their eyes. So go ahead and tell me I am wrong because I don't have children. If I did I would have raised them to be caring and unbiased, to see the world with new eyes and make up their own minds, to be them, not clones of what some long passed group of people thought people should be 2000 years ago. You cannot break old attitudes without education. And now I am finished
I don't think anyone is saying you are wrong because you don't have children. What they're saying is "You can't judge a (fill in the blank here) until you've stood in (fill in..) shoes"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
:2c:
Now, if u can just come up with a GOOD ANSWER to their FIRST QUESTION: WHY DO U CD?Quote:
Originally Posted by bianncats
(How does this sound?)
"Because it excites me, and turns me on!":eek:
I'd LOVE to be able to discuss the things u mentioned above with my daughter. Just tell me how to get past her FIRST QUESTION!:brolleyes:
I'm missing something here, I think...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I'm wandering the mall with my kid, and she asks me about the guy in a dress. I tell her, "So, what?" Then run off into a discussion about the various whyfores. How is this not helping educate and promote open-mindedness? Do I have to be wearing a dress myself to show it's ok?
Do I have to spraypaint myself a different colour to show her that racism is bad?
Being able to educate others does not mean having to do yourself.
LOL, a different twist on "Those that can do, those that can't teach"!
For me, telling people i knew was mostly from a single motivation. I felt I needed validation of all aspects of me, not just a side i felt forced to use everyday. I've been amazingly lucky, and had overwhelmingly positive feedback, where it's just not been a big deal for those close to me. Even when I was outed to one of my best friends by another, it hurt that it didn't come straight from me, but we worked through it to reach an altogether more positive place!! To gain acceptance from friends helped to push me forward towards greater acceptance for myself, so to get closer to a happier place is just so worth the difficulties of telling people. Woot!
x flic x
guess what I am part of society, and I don't think TG peeps are perverts, my 13 year old is part of society . he don't think TG's are perverts .... Deb's 3 kids don't think they are perverts (ages 17,15,& 8), Deb's mum (75 )don't think CDERS are perverts, my sis (21 + some more years), don't think CDERS are perverts, I could go on and on and on and on but the gist is some of society may view you as oddballs, some of society (in fact most) don't give a flying rats a$$ what you are doing, the rest of us sadly view you as normal peeps ............. maybe we are the crazy ones then :sigh:Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri
I'm not sure why some of us object so strongly to the term "ruined her life" that I have used. Allow me to explain:
Imagine this: someone had a girlfriend in high school. Then he went away to college, met someone new, got married and had kids with her. 15 years later, they're 40+ years old, the 'zing' has gone out of their marriage, the bills are piling up, the kids are old enough to get into trouble and will soon need money for college, and both partners are feeling the stress. One day he's grabbing lunch at a counter and who sits down next to him but his old HS girl, and she's single and successful and looks great. They recognize one another and get to talking, and then nature takes its course. He feels like he needs a change, something to get him out of his rat-race, help him relieve the stress. An affair ensues, and suddenly he's in love with her and feels the need to tell his wife to placate his own conscience. She is appalled and shattered, takes the kids and goes home to mother. Has he ruined her life? Yes - he's a bum and that's what the judge will tell him when she sues for divorce - maybe not in so many words, but through the settlement she will get. And most of us I surmise would agree with that - he cheated on his wife and screwed up. What should he have done? Given up his mistress? Certainly. Impossible to do so? Then he has a choice - shield his wife from the truth or destroy her - not an easy decision to make, and it's very difficult to say it's fair to his wife for him to placate his conscience when the result will be devestating for his wife - perhaps "honesty" in such a case is just a euphimism for self indulgence and self exoneration.
Now, tell that same story, but substitute CD'ing for that high school girlfriend, because that is how exactly how many women will look upon such a thing, and quite justifiably so considering their position. Their husband through CD'ing had an affair with an old flame, or with the girl of his dreams that he finally got a chance to be with. It's just that she wasn't another woman outside the home, but inside the mirror. As far as the wife is concerned, there is no difference. Yet the CD himself doesn't see it that way, and we are all ready to extend him a helping hand and pat him on the back for "being himself" and "being honest". Why is that? Maybe it's simply because none of us are capable of judging ourselves objectively. It's unpleasant to be the bad guy - to realize that you are responsible for injuring someone else so seriously - but sometimes it's so, and then it's time to "man up".
maybe he tells the wife .. she throws him out, he ends up in a bedsit, she continues to work, the kids don't get into trouble, thye are too busy actually doing extra chores to help out, the situation makes them grow up real fast ......... the new GF (he himself remember) liked the excitement of the affair, doesn't want her 24/7 so he ends up on the dating game all over again ......... is he gonna fess up this time ?
You know Lori had it spot on ............... mainly it is the lies and deceipt that destroys the relationship when told or DISCOVERED, but hey who wants to believe the truth ........... that is boring right ........... you know it was the lies and deceit that destroyed my previous cding relationship, with Debs I ain't had that, and we do good .............. and trust me we ain't boring.
Defend your stance as however you like, at the end of the day all you are doing is protecting you, by not giving your partner the facts , you are lying so when it blows up in your face ........ don't blame her ....... (you as in the CDER not to be taken personally)
Crossdressing is my style, and androgyne is my soul. Not expressing this to the world would be living as someone else entirely.
There is no reason to hide the truth. If there are consequences for hiding the truth, then one should take full responsibility of them, only a coward would not. After all, they are the one playing the show.
When I began expressing who I was more honestly, I lost a great deal of friends, but I also gained many anew that were much closer. It also lead me to forming a business.
I couldn't imagine being happier. So why come out? To be happy.
Thanks for making a salient point more diplomatically than I might have. Blessed be the peacemakers. :hugs:Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
You're right, there's not much point in escalating the rhetoric any further. I think we've both stated our cases more than enough, without really finding any common ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
It seems to me that some people are missing the point.
It's not "coming out" that ruins relationships. It's establishing them on a lie that sabotages them.
If you open a 2-liter bottle of Coca-Cola and it sprays up into your face, it's not because you opened it, its because earlier someone shook it up when they should have kept it stable.
If you don't tell your s.o. about your crossdressing up front you have to be prepared to do one of two things:
1.) Sneak around behind her back and live in fear.
2.) Give up crossdressing forever, and be less happy.
I know its hard to come out after years of marriage without any really serious issues. It's like why poke a beehive if you don't have to? BUT, that's only feasible if you really think you can do option #2. if not then you are just delaying the inevitable. And its better she hears it from you than finds out on her own.
And it should be her right to choose who she wants to spend the rest of her life with. And she's DEFINITELY going to see it that way.
Violet,
I understand your position, and I think we actually agree on it, though at first the way you worded it made me think we didn't. I *think* what you are saying is, if you've not told your partner, the two options you suggested are the easiest ones but neither of which is likely to work out in the long run so ultimately you should tell them because it's better they hear it from you than to catch you in the act or hear it elsewhere?
Your coke bottle analogy is a really good one. If I may, let me take it a step further. Anyone who has gotten married or entered into a serious commitment with someone without letting them know about their crossdressing has shaken the coke bottle. They all have this shaken coke bottle in the fridge, waiting to go off at any time.
The difference between coming out to your SO and keeping it a secret, is the difference between knowing that the coke bottle is highly pressurized and as such, opening it over the sink, slowly turning the cap with the bottle nose turned away from you, so as to minimize the amount of spray that gets all over the place. Or, letting the bottle sit there until someone just attempts to open it and gets soaked.
Either way the coke will spray, either way something will get a little bit wet, but at least with the first attempt you're taking responsibility for yourself and trying to think about the cleanup.
For years and several relationships I've been hiding my CDing, which I inevitably determined was more TG/TS related than anything else. Having years and years of burried thoughts about 'what is right, wrong, or just downright diiiiirrrrrrty' repeatedly an unending barrage in my head, I've tried to talk to my previous SO's here and there, seeking acceptace and finding so very little. Meanwhile I have a relationship that I cannot be completely open in.
I had thought about this so very much, each relation that I attempted to break the ice with I ended up loosing or choosing to walk away from. Hiding my Trans self from them was my only option to 'keep the peace'. My ex-wife, 10+ years ago, was the first SO to know of my urge to dress, and she was 'alternative' enough to even perceive and, we'll say for ease, fundamentally accept that I might have been attracted to men too. We separated for other reasons but from what I knew then and now, she still generally accepts me for who I am.
My current GF, who has been KEY in my coming out, found out by chance / surprise that I CDed. After further investigation, which happens to follow many other folk's patterns here, I've come to terms with the reality that there's been MUCH more woman inside than man, and the more the lady has the reigns, the happier I am - thus my transition was started...
As of today I'm 'mildly' out, basically all my good friends and frequenters of local clubs know I'm out, my parents know, my SON who's 11 knows, and the numbers keep going up almost every day if not every week. When I reach a point where its obvious that basically everyone knows, F/T life will begin. If F/T life does not cooperate with my employment, then I will have two paths to choose (which really still is one choice). Either I postpone my transition in my employment until my physical features are unmistakably female and incapable of being hid (*cough twins cough*) and contest it then (which I have incredible hopes that a fully inclusive ENDA comes to bear its fruit) or I walk, and find a new job.
In the end, I have no other choice other than to be myself, or be depressed. If my son chooses some day or at some point to hate me for my transition - I cannot stop that. I can show him my love, and provide for him unwaveringly, but if his path is not with me, then what choice to I have? Be depressed and have a son that shows his love, or be happy and have a son that's depressed and hates me? My greatest wish, again, probably much as many others, is that my family, and my son accept me for who I am, and love the real me unconditionally.
I've chosen the path to be out, be (kinda) loud, and BE PROUD. If the world can't deal, then tuff sh!t on them.
Hi all, Im new here but found this a fascinating thread. I was in closet to all but wife for decades. But when i retired I started telling all family and close friends. No repercusions at all. Im dressed nearly always at home and I go out with wife regularly, shopping, restaurants, travel etc. I am far happier now.
I can tell from what you write after that point that you are writing from a USA perspective. Society is different in different places.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
In Canada, divorce is a civil procedure, not a criminal matter it once was, and not the "Requires a Bill to be passed by Parliament" that it was before that. The exception is that it is still legally possible to proceed through the criminal code to sue for divorce in the cases of abuse, incest, or adultery -- but proceeding in that manner for adultery is heavily discouraged unless the matter is very complicated and there are literally tens of millions of dollars at stake. The courts have made it clear that in ordinary cases of passion, that "the courts have no place in the bedrooms of the nation", so ordinary adultery divorce cases will be thrown out of court, leaving only cases where (for example) it can be demonstrated that the marriage was fraudulent in order to get access to someone's substantial wealth.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
In cases of ordinary adultery, people are expected to go through the provincial or territorial civil divorce proceedings. I do not know the situation in all provinces, but in at least the majority of provinces, the civil procedure is "no fault divorce": you separate for a year, you file a financial and custodial settlement proposal with the courts, and if there aren't fundamental disagreements over custody or finances, then the judge simply reviews the settlement in his or her chambers to be sure it meets the legal standards, and then rubber-stamps it. And the no-fault divorce rules have no provisions for directly or indirectly punishing an adulterer financially: the property division rules are set down in law. About the greatest extent to which the adultery might be acknowledged is possibly in requiring the adulterer to pay a higher portion of the cost of therapy for then children (children tend to blame themselves for the divorce, no matter what the circumstances.)
And so it is in Canada with respect to divorce due to cross-dressing or due to transsexual surgery or the like: the situation is considered the same as if the divorce was because the husband watched too much sports on TV -- or, for that matter, if the divorce was because the husband was a good and loving man forced by circumstances to work two full-time jobs to pay the food bills and the rent, and the wife got sick of being lonely and functionally left to deal with the kids by herself.
Your analogy comparing an affair to cross-dressing has, in my opinion, fundamental flaws; unfortunately I have already spent enough time on this message that I must now rush to get to work on time.
Gliding down the runway in front of a packed house is......uplifting esp. at the turn if you can release those bowlines ....set sail!
All of the States in the USA have different divorces procedures also. However, you've described ours in Calif., (above), quite well, SandraL.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandra-leigh
If u try to spend ANY court time bad mouthing your soon to be ex, the judge will silence, or dismiss u immediately! All divorces here r now "no fault", period!:thumbsup:
And as to financial settlements, Calif. has SPECIFIC schedules on who gets what, and for how long, after a split. We r also a "separate property" state. Altho my ex fought for years to overturn the schedule, our final settlement was almost precisely what my attorney predicted!:brolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violetgray
While this may be true to a certain extent...coming out whether it be before or after the fact is basically going to be a crap shoot. Some people are going to accept it...some won't. Being up front and honest isn't going to guarantee a happy ending. What it will guarantee is fairness. It gives the other person the opportunity to freely choose whether or not this is something that they can live with. Whether you see it as fair or unfair and whether people agree or disagree with you is a moot point. people are going to make up their minds and in a lot of cases they are going to stick to their convictions. You can sit people down and educate them until the cows come home, and they may be convinced that there is in fact nothing wrong with it, but still have the opinion that this isn't something that they want in their lives. No one ever said that life is fair, and the chips are going to fall where they may.
A couple of people have posted analogies.. let me add mine
We have closeted cross dressers, try as we might to convince them that their world will not crumble if they venture out, why don't they? Fear whether real or imagined is a very strong deterrent. We can show 1,000's of cases where people get out there and are not hunted down and slaughtered by roving bands of cross dresser hunters. We can give tons of examples of happy lives lived as people see fit, and we can read a multitude of testimonials, so why aren't these people convinced?
Now turn it around and put the wife or SO in place of the cder.. What is the difference?
:2c:
Kel
Without getting into the legal aspects, the analogy is flawed in some situations and spot on in others - that possibility is very real and has played out often enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandra-leigh
As many of us have been saying, there is no "one size fits all" here. There are as many different situations as there are cd'ers, and they fit into several different larger groups. :2c:
Now there's a practical, realistic take on things that sounds like nothin' but the truth, honey.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
And I'm not just saying that cuz you're drop-dead omg gorgeous. :D
Well the reason that I am thinking about coming out is. I am 50 years old and sick of only getting to dress when no one is around. My wife asked me the other day if I would ever step out of the closet. That got me thinking.:daydreaming:
I think if you look at the polls here you will find that isn't true. At best it's 50/50. My feeling is the great majority of CDs are TG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda G
Those other women aren't still lurking inside your closet waiting to jump out and surprise her. If you're planning a long term relationship, it's best to not hide things. That's what SO's find the most distasteful, the lies.Quote:
For the truth and honesty crowd, do you tell a new girlfriend about all the women you've been to bed with, in order to "get it all out in the open"? Of course not. So why the need to tell them about your crossdressing?
Your whole post has quite the cheery attitude. I'm sorry if you've gotten burned in the past somewhere but lets have a constructive discussion about things without casting shadows on others!Quote:
Do whatever you want. There's a whole squad of "truthers" here, who will "be here for you". It won't be much comfort when the little woman files for divorce, and you're looking for a place to live.
For almost all them reasons I came out to my wife. Now I can dress mostly when i please.I feel no big need to get out and about I make not a good looking woman.I am a ease as thing are and nave no wish to change that.:hugs:
Angie
Unfortunetly in the first case of the mistress the damage to the wife is the actual act of cheating on her, not so much the secrecy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
In the second case, most women proffess that it is the secrecy and lying that damages the relationship, not the actual CDing. Also, men aren't inately adulterers, that certainly is a "choice". If you are TG, you can chose not to dress, but you're still a CD, just not practicing. That comes with its own set of problems.
While I know that telling a spouce after years in a relationship is fraught with danger, I still vote for it over keeping secrets. Of course the ideal is to tell them at the beginning of the relationship. That's what I did and it was the best decision of my life! I would not be here today if I had tried to suprress this my whole life.
The majority of the replies here suggest coming out of the closet to be yourself and to accept the potential loss of family and friends. I would argue that one who is not unhappy in the closet should stay there. The risk of losing family is just unacceptable. My wife doesn’t want me impersonating a female (no bra when I’m with her). She bought me many of my femme clothes and said to wear whatever I want at home, so I usually wear sheer support pantyhose and a slip uncovered here in the evening, but I underdress when we go out. I keep pushng her limits (& my comfort zone) and want to eventually appear in public en femme, but it will need to be on a trip to minimize the odds of being recognized and I will need an excuse (such as a costume contest) to get a transformation and appear with her in public as a woman.
I did because i knew the person i was telling would support me in it and if i felt embarasses buying things she would buy them for me. And so when I talk to her she would know she is talking to sarah.
are we talking about comeing our or going out????
I thought this thread was about "should you admit to crossdressing" rather than "should you go out and about en femme"Quote:
Originally Posted by jenna_woods
I soon want to come out to my mom so I don't have to hide it at home. Plus I want to keep a stand for my wig rather it being tossed in a trunk.
I think that secrecy and dishonesty will hurt a relationship as much, if not more than dressing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheidelmeidel
I think coming out for me is an affirmation of my desires and hope that it will help me be more accepting of myself.
Society tells us it is wrong to do what we do. I have dealt with guilt over crossdressing for most of my life and perhaps "coming out" will help me resolve that conflict.
You have absolutely no choice in coming out to your SO. Its only right.
Coming out to your kids is then a mutual decision. I mean, they'll find out anyway eventually somehow, so you may as well control the engagement..
Other family, friends, co-workers - that's totally up to you, and you can or not at your choice. Depends on how "out" you want to be.