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You know, that's an excellent question to consider. I think in some cases it's lack of information, in some cases it's anti-trans bias or ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
I wish more people would ask probing questions like you just did! :)
Confirmation bias?
If a GG just finds this site and looks through some posts which could be seen as a CD actually being TS then that may affirm what they already believe.
A few friends and a small forum on the internet aren't a big enough sample size to say all CDs are TS.
Unless anyone with more Science! wants to correct me.
Kitty I think your wrong about CDs. A lot are TS yes but its not known how many are. Others are not and so we just have to be clear!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
I'm sorry, Marleena, you couldn't be further from the truth here. By the time that we come to the Real Life Experienceofliving 24/7 as the woman that we know ourselves to be, we have already tried the cross-dressing as a coping mechanism and found it inadequate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
I gave up cross-dressing the day that I started my RLE.
Some MtF TS, try to delude themselves that they are men who like to cross-dress. Others, like me, try it as a coping mechanism to avoid the inevitable. In this latter case it is most often doomed to fail because we are not men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
I hope that many SO's of cross-dressers do read this thread, but that they come up with a different conclusion to yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
There is a big difference between a woman, born in the wrong body, but trying to use cross-dressing as a coping mechanism on the one hand and true MtF cross-dressers who are men wishing to dress some of the time as a woman.
I appreciate that from the outside, the symptoms seem to be similar, but the root causes could not be more different.
I have been quite dismayed by the contributions of certain people in this thread who should know better than to try to muddy the waters as they have done.
Some who (apparently for their own amusement) have tried to insist that most CD's are just TS in denial regularly post in another place that they do not believe even half of us who know ourselves to be TS. Apart from amusement at muddying the waters, I'm not sure what they seek to gain by their contributions to this thread.
I have seriously studied this subject for several decades and can say without doubt that all males who wear women's clothes are not necessarily transsexual. This train of thought stems from a tendency many people have of wanting to believe others are similar to themselves. In fact, there are even many distinct types of "crossdressers" as well as different categories of transsexuals. Nature loves diversity, but society does not. The same sort of narrow mindedness that causes many people to look down upon transgendered persons seems to have effect within the transsexual/crossdresser community as well.
Personally, I know exactly what I am and it is not transsexual, but it is just as valid as transsexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality.
Lyric
I don't like categories.
I don't believe wanting to express a feminine side means you're Bi or gay. Personally I have no attraction to other males.
I do what I do for me!
I also am not ashamed of being straight sexually.
Maybe your reading railroad holds most passangers. Thanks anyway but I'll drive.
If this sounds too blunt, sorry.
Just paying my 2 cents.
Cheers
Sweety I never said that all crossdressers were TS in denial. I NEVER said CDs were gay. Finally I NEVER said they were perverts. I am not sure how you can even deduct that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
What is comforting to see is acceptance and help from parents for the younger kids that identify as TS. Hopefully it will continue so these kids don't have denial and repress their feelings like what has happened in earlier generations. A lot of emotional pain can be relieved and avoided for these kids.
You would hope so, but ignorance is still going to break a few more generations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleena
Expect more, lots more.
This is clearer to me now. One of the running themes on the site is differences between CDers and TSs as regards the fantasy component on the crossdressing side (as the TS members would put it). Thus you have threads like "would you", "do you ever think about", "what would make you", etc. The TS topics are more typically rooted in the here and now and what they ARE or WILL be doing. I'm not implying that one is better than the other. There's simply a completely different mindset involved. A GG might be rightfully concerned about their SO's fantasy life, but these don't make them transsexual any more than a woman who has rape fantasies REALLY wants to be raped. The vast majority of crossdressers would run from the reality and the vast majority of the transsexuals aren't interested in the fantasies.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
Lea
I agree in part with that and IF I would win the lottery, it may sway my feelings at this time. However I also have the contentment with how I am right now.:confused:. I know tat does not make sense but on this train we are talking about, right now the major station you speak of (TS) is just not on my itinerary. It was (or would have been if I could have afforded the ticket and the destination was as good as it is now 30 years ago).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aprilrain
However I don't think the majority here ever aspire to your holy grail. The majority here are satisfied with what they have as far as physicality. IF you are TS you are TS from birth. It is not an upgrade. To paraphrase Sondheim "When you're a TS, you're a TS all the way
from your first desire to your last dyin' day." I don't think you change to become a TS. You is or you isn't. And all the TS's here cannot convert the CD's, GQ's, TV's, DQ's to join the club. I don't see this as a journey. The TS's here may have made it a journey though because they had to come to grips with the facts. And they may have tried to fit a lifestyle that they were not supposed to be in. Most subgroups do that. Gays try often to be straight. Tomboys may try and be prom queens. Even the Amish try the new world for awhile. And in most cases they return to what feels right. Silk purse: sows ear.
We are not any one thing. We are a rainbow so to speak. It is not a continuum.
As I had read all the replies, I tend to start seeing transgenderism and all its inclusive plateaus in less linear fashion. Said that, all the fractions are intertwined with each other by common thread and overlap in some points and do not in other. However a bigger question which I seek answer to as to CD becoming TS seems closer at hand, however I stress, [SIZE="3"]I am in no way implying nor forcing this assumption on the public at hand[/SIZE].
I believe that instead of smooth transition brought forth by final upheaval, a stressful instance bringing an individual to a decision, such eureka of self affirmation comes as a shocking and critical cross over to the never never land of what dreams are made of and let life take me instead of I will do it my way.
By my own experience, I had come to crossroads of existence, I could no longer tolerate living and so 2 choices remained, inevitable, both were sort of end of life as we know it, with one of them being more of a literal then other.
Well, I am still writing this post so the choice was obvious but I did chose truth over deceit, pain over comfort, unknown over deceitful feeling of being loved and belonging.
I can honestly say that such decision would have NEVER happened did I not come to this grave place of decision. Have I had a better understanding wife, a better economical stance I would go on, and that is absolutely definite, Still CDing and feeling femininity through such expression.
What this thunderstorm of emotions did for me was a realization that I live in the world of pretend, imaginary in every way possible, in a glass bubble and CDing was one only real instance to touch truth to allow love to flow through my broken heart.
So without any choice as to go on in status quo, I only made one step I could, and that was to go and embrace TS as my road map. Slowly then I started to see more clearly how deceitful my thinking was when in denial, I no longer feared rejection, I no longer felt word Transsexual was dirty, I no longer was hiding behind the facade of wrong unfitting AVATAR, I was free to be whom I always been but denied it and sent to the abyss of unconscious.
Your experience certainly proves that it works both ways. You were always up front about yourself and were "duped" because your wife could not be honest about her feelings until your transition was in her face. That is when she faced the reality of what she promised. It is equally destructive when a gg so hides her feelings and goes along with things she is uncomfortable about hoping it will go away. I can relate to your pain Julia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
Kate / Julia.
OMG that is me :(. I may never live the life that I want to live, and I know that I am more then just a cross dresser. I may just struggle with this for the rest of my life.
Paige,
I understand all too well.
stay strong.
Julia
I think that happens to a lot of people anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
Over the last 20 years, my close friends have mostly married, had children, and worked at a variety of important technical positions at some of the top technical companies in the world. Meanwhile, I am common law, no children, and been stuck in the same work for 20 years, in an organization whose rules do not allow for me to be promoted no matter how good I am. No travel or training or conferences for me either. Oh, and I would get in trouble if I were to take post-grad courses at night, as it would be assumed that I was working on those while I was supposed to be working. The city I live in is 1000km each from the nearest city of comparable size in the same country.
So long before I realized I had gender issues, I was already feeling isolated and "passed by", "stuck", life "on hold", unfulfilled, not doing what I was born to do.
The gender issues... well, they don't make the situation any easier, that's for sure. But I do know that transitioning as TS would not solve a single one of those other issues.
Fine... I'll be the one to take the medical/psychological route. Note: I'm going to use some terms that people will find insulting, cold, and detached. It's not my purpose or intention to use certain words in a judgmental fashion.
Cross dressing is the act of dressing of the other gender, and can be used as a description for those that do so but don't fall into any other category. It can be done for many reasons, from life style to neuropsych* disorder (gender dysphoria, etc).
TS/TG are individuals who's gender (which yes, is a spectrum) does not match their phenotypic sex** (outward appearance) to the point of causing distress that affects their everyday functioning. While CDing can be a lifestyle choice, I do not believe someone would go to the length of medications and surgery because they made a choice to be the opposite gender. While, yes, the concept of gender dysphoria as a disorder can, has been, and is used to promote discrimination, the disorder part comes from the distress caused, which decreases quality of life.
Do TS/TG individuals cross dress? Yes. However I would not call a TS/TG a crossdresser because it isn't a lifestyle choice that can simply be turned off.
*I personally like the term "neuropsych" since it incorporates the concept of structural and functional causes of psychatric disorders.
**Sex can be divided up into genetic sex (XX and XY being the normal states), gonadal sex (ovaries or testicles), and phenotypic sex (outward appearance). Gender dysphoria would a discordance between phenotypic sex and gender, whereas an individual with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (where they lack the receptor for the type of testosterone responsible outward appearance and secondary sexual characteristics) would not be a TS, despite their genetic and gonadal sex not matching up with their phenotypic sex and gender (they are XY, they have undescended testicles, but look, develop, are raised, and generally accept being a female).
Alexis,
I'm not meaning to brow beat you here but being TS is not a lifestyle choice.
That implies that it was the transsexual woman's decision to be TS.
Since transsexual and intersexed conditions are considered medical it is a medical need and not a choice.
Julia
Let me clarify something because I never meant to say or imply (I can't see the former, can see the latter in my post) that TS/TG is a life style choice.
Cross dressing as an act = multiple reasons, which can include lifestyle.
Cross dresser as a label for an individual = lifestyle.
TS/TG = Discordance between phenotypic sex and gender = not a lifestyle choice.
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julia_in_Pa
Crossdressers don't become transexual.
Some transexuals may THINK they are crossdressers for a while as they continue to repress their true identity.
I've known transexuals that never crossdressed and never wanted to until they actually began transitioning.
I think I lean towards Julia's point on this: TS who CDed may have already been TS. However, at the time, people don't always know where they are much less where they are going. This may be denial but it may also be a genuine lack of knowledge that a certain direction is possible. It may be many years before a person realizes they are actually on a journey and cannot fully apprehend the destination until they arrive.
However, I will say this: at some point between CD and TS, I think people make a conscious decision. At that point, they realize where they are and what may be possible and deliberately make actions to go in whichever direction is preferable. I think hormones or other body changes are such indicators. For example, the CDer who really likes to dress up and show off their legs may find that hormones cause a growth in the thighs. So those long skinny legs don't look quite the way they once did. Depending on how they react to that realization, they may find they have self-identified with the CD or the TS and determined which direction they prefer the journey to take.
Now I'm not advocating experiments. I'm only saying that sometimes it's the reaction to little decisions along the way that help us to define who we are and where were are going. But the direction and speed are not always known. Sometimes it is the unexpected, unpredictable things that happen along the way that help us to define and reach our destination.
-stephani
Inna,
I don't believe that a CD becomes a TS at all. It may work the other way round though. A "normal" (ha ha!) CD has no interest in becoming female, just appearing to be so. However, a TS might go through a CD stage wanting to be female. Just my 0.02 thingiesworth.
Sorry, but some of this sounds like, "I can piss up the wall higher than you can". Or I'm right and your wrong. I don't care what name you want to put on it, all I want is to be at peace with myself. I have found my place of peace and that is where I will stay, only you can find your place of peace, no one can find it for you. Life is a journey, so start enjoying it in whatever way you can.
Actually all this "category talk" is so male thinking. Gives me a headache. Does that mean I'm TS?
CLICK,,, CLACK,,, CLICK,,,CLICK,, :D :D :D It was just me sneaking out !!!
:straightface:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
Denial and suppression can be wickedly powerful and persuasive bedfellows, clouding the soul, obfuscating identity, and deceiving and concealing the true self.
Anne,
You are so right. It seems that all of your posts.thread started are right on.
How are headaches and being transexual even remotely related? lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by celeste26
Categorization is human nature, not male nature.
It's easy, do you fit the definition or not? OMG LABELS!!!!
Oh no oh no! I can't be described by a label because... because... the world will end!!!! Don't you pigeon hole me with labels, I'm not female! I'm not human! I'm not a carbon-based life form! I'm not a collection of molecules! I'm just ME!!!! WAAHAHHHHH
:D
If you don't care who you are and are just being yourself, that's totally cool. But some people HAVE to define who they are, because they need that label to live within this system so THEY CAN BE THEMSELVES. I can't just walk around saying "I'm not transexual, I'm not this, I'm not that. I'm just me! Oh, but please prescribe me hormones! Please allow me to change my gender so I can live my life as my true identity! Please let me get SRS so I don't have to live with this incorrect body!"
If you don't need to and don't want to label yourself, hurray for you. But respect that some people HAVE TO to survive.
That's interesting actually, did she give a reason why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bree_K
To quote Bob Dylan, "I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them." I was told 15 years ago by a transsexual that I would eventually get over my denial and start transitioning. Hasn't happened yet, but that sort of condescending attitude has always irritated me. While my dressing is very much an expression of my gender identity, it's complex and for me it seems that transition to full-time woman would create more problems than it would solve. I have some gender dysphoria but only occasionally, and not overwhelmingly so. Aside from too much body hair, I don't have a problem with my male body. I don't strongly identify as either a man or a woman. I'm me...and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. :)
I knew two people that never crossdressed. They just didn't care. Being a girl isn't about the cloths and they just... didn't care. I don't know what else to say lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by whowhatwhen
Maybe they had other outlets for their identity while they were repressing who they were, or maybe they did a better job of repressing than I did. I spent a lot of time alone so I wouldn't have to pretend to be a guy. I would also crossdress. Those were the two ways I could relax and be myself but I could still repress everything else and pretend I was just a normal boy/guy.
I'm kinda late to the thread and haven't been here for a while, but I'll throw in my :2c: worth.
I am in my late 40's and consider myself a crossdresser. I have read in this thread several times that if CD's could go back in time, they may have made different decisions. I have wondered the same thing over the years and can only speak from my own experiences.
I met my best friend when I was barely 19 and in college. We married a few years later and had two wonderful children. Being a father and husband have been the most rewarding experiences of my life. She's still my best friend.
My crossdressing had the potential to become much more than crossdressing when I was younger. I am so thankful for the path my life took.
Sami exists when I need her to. My wife (best friend) is very understanding and supportive. The male me leads a full and wonderful life.
Life is good.
I've heard the famous "two years" joke........as in " what's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?.......two years"!.......meaning the process of transition.
I'm a latent crossdresser who has been out & about in public for three years, I never thought such a thing was even remotely possible. I'm even doing without the wig these days as of late.
I am also NOT a transsexual. I'm just a gender-fluid person who is midway through life. That's my comfortable space. I'm just not happy with the constrains of gender that society imposes.
It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.
It's also been theorized that transsexuals are cisgender, not transgender.....they just happen to be the other gender. I can agree with that.
Yeah... there are ideas floating around on what's actually different in the mind/brain, and what causes this mismatch. I don't know... all I know is that who I am does not match the body I was put in. For whatever reason I am who I am. And at this point in time, the only way to fix it is by changing the body to match the mind. Maybe one day we can fix the brain or inject a virus that spreads the correct genome/chromosomes/whatever through our body... but until science is that awesome... hormones and surgery it is!Quote:
Originally Posted by NathalieX66
Transvestism is not a layover on an inevitable destination to transsexualism. Many of my TS friends have had one hell of a hard time trying to transition etc. in their lives, and I can understand why one might be in denial about being a TS, it is not a road one would want to have to take.
However, not all of us who dress feel we are in the wrong body, or ever felt that way. Some of us only want to dress occasionally, or to put it another way we have a finite appetite for dressing. I was visiting with some trans friends this weekend, en drab, and I get the usual grief about why I don't feel an irresistible urge to dress like most others there. I can take it or leave it, I am fine with being a male and I am not ashamed to be seen as a male regardless of my friends' gender orientation. Not all of us are TS, not all of us hate being male. One can indeed like dressing occasionally, and still feel like a male. Amazing but true.
I know when I first came out I was just admit.I'm Just a cross dressers . 5 months later I'm in Seattle seeing how long I can be en feme .
You are definitely correct... and I thought this was pretty common knowledge!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vickie_CDTV
There are far more crossdressers than there are transexuals and they are definitely two separate and distinct things.
(...and for those of you who think I'm pigeonholing you by saying that... I'm not. There is the whole spectrum of transgender for people who don't fit in as crossdressers or transexuals. And if you still can't live with that label, then sure, you're just you :D )
Brilliant. Excellent observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lea Paine
Yes! I totally missed this post. A very good way of describing the difference! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lea Paine
While I disagree that all CDs are closet case TSes, in fact I still think they are a minority, I can see where there are enough to give one this impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by kittypw GG
I think you have a pretty good read on that, "type" of "CDer" who will eventually transition though. Much of what you write rings true to my situation. I wish for mine and my wife's sake that we would have HAD all the cards to lay on the table! Had we known where to go for better information things may have been different. We both had our fears and that held us from the truth, from finding "all the cards" I had a bad therapist and conflicting emotions regarding transition, I desperatly wanted it but honestly believed that there was no way that I could be a TS. She just wanted it to go away (at this point we are only talking "CDing" I would have denied wanting to transition) like so many wives she was torn between wanting to please her husband, wanting him to be happy, and WANTING A DAMN HUSBAND! I think the iceberg analogy is good however its not just the SOs who can't see what's under the water, the iceberg was invisible to me as well. We were both standing on the bridge of the USS Denial, full steam ahead! neither one of us was lying, denial is believing something that is false. Our marriage was a mess and my transsexualism was just one part of that whole cluster****!
My advice to all:
Meet a transsexual...know her, or his pain.
Hey, we could have it a lot worse.... but yeah, it sucks lolQuote:
Originally Posted by NathalieX66
I edited it, lol! :)
There's another possible denial reason, no one wants to willingly take on pain and suffering.Quote:
Originally Posted by NathalieX66
It's probably going to be easier to deny it.
What is the difference between a Cd and a TS. 5 years. Ok bad Joke . But most of the girls I knew when I first came out are full time . But Seriously I think deep down when you first come out you have a sense of who you are .Odd thing is all the single or divorced trans folks went full time . Verry few of the ones that were married and kids did that. None of them stayed married . One Girl I know even got full custody .,
Nope, I'm happy where I'm at.Quote:
Originally Posted by whowhatwhen
I got a bunch of friends on HRT, and a few who have done SRS......we are all not the same. The people who think about transitioning think about it all the time....For me, I think about what's the next bad-ass note or chord I can play on my guitar.
Oh no, I must've written that post badly o_O I didn't mean you specifically!
I meant "your" in general, which still may be wrong but my brain is fried.
Sorry, fixed :P
I must meet a different breed of TS's. The ones I know are happy and really didn't go through all the angst (that is what I assume was meant as pain, not the surgical part). They knew what they wanted, worked toward that end.
And they keep sending me applications to join (OK not really...they think I should tho.)
whowhatwhen, peace and love.
Being diagnosed transsexual is a very frustrating experience. Wearing the clothing is nothing but a Band-Aid. For real trannsexual people, the attempted suicide rate is something close to 42% ....words from TS rights activist Mara Keisling.
It may be fun or comfortable to wear a dress, but when you know you don't belong in the gender of your birth , it eats at you like full blown cancer.
Posting this again, I seriously suggest seeing the video or, better, reading the book. It is somewhat complex, but not that bad to comprehend.
http://www.amazon.com/Billion-Wicked.../dp/0525952098
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGfhQTbcqmA
To answer the question directly:
After you've been through that, it'll be clear that the 'triggers' that set off fetishistic cross-dressing can overlap inborn offset bodymapping, which is where gender identity comes from. However, remember that, as with all other 'systems', they're parallel to each other but not connected.
In laymen's terms, what that means for people born trans, is that the 'freedom' one gives to themselves when they crossdress lets them have the headspace to discover that they're trans all along. The crossdressing itself doesn't cause it. That's why fetishistic cross-dressers don't "become" transsexual. There's nothing more to be discovered. They just get their rocks off on the cross-dressing.
Lastly, know it's not 100% black and white, since they're unconnected. For example, a person can have, say, only a degree of a trans nature, but plenty of a fetishic crossdressing nature, making it rather confusing (especially since almost nobody knows this is how it works), or the opposite, a person with a strong trans nature can still have a slight crossdressing fetish, making them doubt their own feelings.
Clear enough?
I doubt anyone's going to have the patience to go through the video, even though that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Trust me, having a little patience is worth it.