I didn't say I was "bi when dressed" maybe you should read the post again?Quote:
Originally Posted by famousunknown
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I didn't say I was "bi when dressed" maybe you should read the post again?Quote:
Originally Posted by famousunknown
I read it. That's what I got out of it. Maybe you need to explain it better?Quote:
Originally Posted by AllisontheGoddess
Hey, hey -- there's no need for hostility over someone's sexual exploration/fantasies. The human psyche, and the sexual inclinations which stem therefrom, is/are tremendously complex. I doubt anyone can express certainty over whether or not sexuality "works a certain way" and be credible unless they're perhaps a neuroscientist who has shown that sexual feelings and associations remain consistent where all other mental states are variable. Unless you can prove that, you must take the approach of cognitive psychology and take Allison's statements as to her thoughts and feelings at face value.
P.S. The fact that she's willing to explore this issue at all, let alone in a public forum where others will offer their opinions, serves as evidence that she would not be "ashamed of being gay". She merely wants clarification, as she needs to sort out whatever cognitive dissonance she may be experiencing.
Yeah there are conditions under which anyone could engage in acts with the same gender. Use your imagination.
"cognitive dissonance" huh? rightttttQuote:
Originally Posted by SarahMarie42
"Cognitive dissonance" is a phenomenon where self-concepts don't line up.
http://www.apa.org/pi/aids/resources...issonance.aspx
Read about social psychology, it's fun. And it makes one's statements/arguments more relevant.
LexiTV, I like your analysis. I do not know if it is 100% correct, but it does offer a lot of food for thought. My feeling about being Bi is that it is on two spectrum's, one based on the predominant gender attraction, and the other based on how one views their Bi-ness. So, in the first case at one end of the spectrum one could be primarily attracted to his or her hetero opposite gender and only likes to be with the same hetero gender occasionally when the mood and opportunity come together at the same moment. At the other end of that spectrum one is more attracted to the same gender. E.g. "I prefer to be with X gender more than the other".
In the second case, which may be more in your line of thinking, I believe that a person can reach a state of mind where the actual gender of their sexual attraction is totally unimportant. That is, if they are attracted to someone, whatever gender, then they follow their attraction regardless of gender. This other spectrum to me is one where someone thinks or acts only a "little" Bi, while at the other end of that spectrum the person has reached that special state of mind that I described just above, they are totally Bi. I consider that to be the pure or ideal Bi-ness. It is a point of self actualization similar to what we do when we totally accept who we are, actually embrace it, and do not let other's opinions or comments interfere with us being us. Something that I think that most of us are striving for. It is also similar to what we want and hope of others, not to just tolerate and accept parts of who we are, but rather, to totally accept us and really everyone else in this world as human beings however they present themselves, whatever culture or religion or ethnicity they are. In other words, people do not discriminate against others just because they are not the same as they are.
PS: SarahMarie, I like your thoughts too, and thanks for defending the OP. You did it much more eloquently than I ever could.
I can't remember where I read this, but they say that being bi is often times a stepping stone to swinging preferences from one sex to another, usually from opposite-sex to same-sex. Eventually, a distinct preference for one sex or the other will be reached.
Allie I do think there are people who truly are pansexual (their lover's gender no matter what it is, does not matter nor does it register with them), but I should think this would be rather rare, just as rare as being asexual.
Last, there is also bi-ness as an experimentation stage. There has most definitely been a trend among young high school or college girls in recent memory to experiment with same-sex sex, although the opinion is that this does not last. One sociologist suggested the same-sex experimentation among young women might be a reaction to AIDS. And the reason the experimentation is not as prevalent among same-sex college guys is a stronger sense of homophobia among men. MY SO and I used to go to an alternative club (LGBT + Straight), and there were quite a few younger women there who made a big show out of being lipstick lesbian or bi (they got a lot of attention from the guys when they were bumping and grinding together on the dance floor). But honestly, I think it was just show. I knew one of them. :p
More on experimentation ... we see this here all the time. CDers have fantasies of being with men while dressed, and some will experiment (I think that most won't). If they're straight they'll get turned off, and if they don't get turned off then they're gay, or possibly on their way to determining that they are gay, or they're AGP and the fantasy of being a woman is more powerful than anything else.
Edit - ... one more ... and then there are people who have tremendously strong libidos or who are into fetish (BDSM) in a big way. I should think that sexual attraction would be rather flexible for these people with threesomes, group sex, etc, where it is more about pure sex than a romantic or emotional attachment to anyone.
Back to the original poster:
Exploring ones sexuality is only a huge issue to yourself as an individual. No one else really cares. If you have bi-sexual feelings when dressed en fem there is no cause for fear, concern, or panic your just being honest with yourself about your feelings. If you think about it you are presenting and very much thinking like a woman. If you want to explore, find the right person that will respect your limits and see what happens. You may end up saying, well that was that a)not for me b)some things were OK c)It was fun and on and on. It is not a stepping stone to being gay. You cannot be turned into gay nor can a gay be turned into straight, that is proven and documented. Doc Rob gave such a great analogy, how do you know if you like zucchini if you've never tasted it? So to net it out, don't worry and keep an open mind - about everything in life.
I. Don't. Care.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahMarie42
I find nothing at all about men attractive except their weiners.
Thank you for your informed and civil contributions to this conversation, Sarah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahMarie42
Ah...the old "sexual orientation" dichotomy of gay/straight. It is all BS. A way to segregate. I will address your conondrum, AllisonTheGoddess, but not directly. I am going to share a vastly different perspective with you, and you can draw from it what you will.
There are ONLY TWO Sexual "Orientations": Sexual, and NOT Sexual (a.k.a. 'Celibate', if you're Catholic).
ALL other labels "Gay", "Straight", "Bi" (really dislike that one), or "Bi-Curious" (dislike that one even more)...are nothing more than COMFORT ZONES within a larger body of varied tastes in pleasure.
It's like any other comfort zone. You know what you like, and you indulge in it from time to time. You see similar parallels all over: Omnivores VS The Vegans is an example. Guess what: They make pizza pies for both sides of that fence.
I've eaten both kinds and both are awesome.
Sexuality is no different. I've had both. Both are awesome. My comfort zone is huge, and thusly; there is more fun in it to be had.
Never once in my enire life have I ever heard a man or woman say: "I'm bi-celibate" I guess it would mean NO sex, but masturbation is OK...?
If you want the scoop on the Celibate Orientation, I'd say go ask a Priest. They seem to have all of those loopholes figured out.
Me? My sexual orientation is SEXUAL. And that's it, and everything that goes with it. Life is awesome, so be awesome in life. Never limit yourself to the expectations of another or group of others, if you can surpass those expectations of yourself. The choice is yours, and always has been. You can stay in your comfort zone, or venture out and establish new borders. You crossdress, so you know already of that.
My advice, for it may or may not be worth: Go with what you like, and leave others to theirs. What do YOU want to remember tomorrow?
;D
Much love, respect, and admiration to you as a WHOLE being.
---Nikki50/50
P.S.> I've nothing against Catholics. Or Pizza.
Nikki, what is it that you dislike so much about Bi or Bi-Curious? They are descriptive terms that help others to understand the sexuality or sexual desires/preferences/orientation of others. If you don't like labels, are you a pizza lover?? So, you are a "sexual" person, is that a label? I am just trying to understand what you wrote.
Straights and homosexuals (gays and lesbians), would disagree with you. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Nikki50/50
I personally think there are very few, long-term bis (or pansexual if you prefer). I think they are as rare as asexuals. Eventually many bisexuals gravitate towards same-sex attraction.
I agree with you about bi-curious though (sorry Allie). It doesn't make sense to me. If someone is curious about the opposite sex, why don't they just try it so they will know? "Bi-curious" is really just another word for "same-sex fantasy", and a fantasy does not indicate an actual sexual preference. So maybe the people who say they are bi-curious would rather remain in the fantasy stage rather than find out they are turned off when they enact their fantasies?
Not bi/bi-curious as the state of being, so much as the labels and what they imply.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieSF
They blend the two superlatives of sexuality, and perpetuate the label idealogy. 'Bi-curious' is just a self-security label saying "I'm completely "Bi", but don't want to admit it, so I'll say I enjoy the idea of dual gender sexuality without being 'bi' ".
I'm sorry if I offend. That is not my intent. But I've always had a problem with labels, especially the wrongfully applied sort. My opinion is that "Bi-Curious" is a really bad label.
As I stated in my perspective...all these are comfort zones. There are better words we could use to describe them. We just have to appy the right touch of imagination.
Perhaps they could...but i can reiterate that gay/lesbian can function as a label if those who are either need them. But what I was stating as my opinion (that's all I can righteously claim it to be, after all lol) is that those are only applicable as Comfort Zones, not true defining Sexual Orientations.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I'm sure you are going to get a ton of comments on this one. Finding the right guy to let Gina fulfill the fantasy came early for me, and I really enjoyed the experience. I have thoroughly enjoyed being the girl in a relationship whether it is to go out or other things. I hope if you take that step, you find someone who will treat you right. I have been lucky to find a great guy and gal who know of the other, and agree to let me chose who I want to be on any given day, with no conflict. Good luck!
ditto---I'm with you all the way---being naked with another naked guy has no appeal to me. Being fully dressed in a sexy outfit with makeup, purfume, wig etc with another CD done up the same way is really excitingQuote:
Originally Posted by Purple8229
As written in a post on this thread that, somehow, got lost I will again back Jennifer 100%. Sisters are free to create all the theories they want but it doesn't change the truth. In that last post islands and prisons were mentioned as deal breakers. I recalled Jonny Cash's song
"A Boy Named Sue" after performing his show at many prisons and getting to know the inmates. His point was that (he didn't cover this
small percentage of inmates already gay that became BI) after suffering rape and sodomy for years as sex slaves the majority were encouraged in his song to revert to their previous inclinations and that they are not branded for life as gay or bi. Also dreaming or fantasies when dressed does not change your orientation but the act does. I am swayed with second thoughts on those, usually in a school environment, who "experiment". Then the question must be posed: experiment for how long before you are bi? Then one has to go back to the AMA's definition of homosexuality to find in recent years that it is not a personal decision --- you are born that way. In which case then how can one become BI if not already gay? In my mind then the logical progression for CDs must be that they had to already be gay before finding the male body appealing. Rest my case.
Julie
I feel just like u.Quote:
Originally Posted by GondorRachel
I know what u mean.
I have gotten even a little envious with my last gf when we were intimate ... I kind of wished I was her.
This can be so confusing. LOL
My God, Purple! I clicked on the last post link on this thread (from my Subscriptions list), so it took me straight to your post.
The picture scared me to death, it was so unexpected.
AllisontheGoddess, If you truly have the feeling, you will want to give up everything for it.
I have had this fantasy on occasions, but it got put into reality once by my three girlfriends.
They took me to a drive-in movie and I sat in the back seat with this guy who knew who I was.
The other two had boyfriends and it was a bit cramped in the car.
I eventually sat on his lap and had my arm around him.
The others kissed and cuddled so we did a bit too.
His searching hands did get under my blouse and I responded in kind.
We giggled and joked about it as we were aware of what the others might be doing and they had set both of us up.
It was not unpleasant and we enjoyed the moment.
We thought if they want us to play girlfriend/boyfriend, why not!
Personally i always go for the simpler explaination. Fantasies are just that... fantasies. They seem to be upsetting you or making you rethink some things, but is that because ur freaked out about having them? or because you actually want to go and do this. Mental fantasies and practicality are two totally different things. Sure sometimes i love the idea of entertaining in my head that i would have some guy that would pay for everything and i could just be woman all the time and not work and etc. But is that practical? for me no, and do i actually want that? NOT AT ALL but i love entertaining the idea as a fantasy haha. So maybe its not so complicated. Just try and think through it calmly.
It has been done, a fair number of times. First was 50 years ago, by Kinsey et. al., the so-called Kinsey Reports. Wikipedia's summary of the stats is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Approximately 6000 females were surveyed.Quote:
The reports also state that nearly 46% of the male subjects had "reacted" sexually to persons of both sexes in the course of their adult lives, and 37% had at least one homosexual experience. 11.6% of white males (ages 20–35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) throughout their adult lives. The study also reported that 10% of American males surveyed were "more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55" (in the 5 to 6 range).
7% of single females (ages 20–35) and 4% of previously married females (ages 20–35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) on Kinsey Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale for this period of their lives. 2 to 6% of females, aged 20–35, were more or less exclusively homosexual in experience/response, and 1 to 3% of unmarried females aged 20–35 were exclusively homosexual in experience/response.
Criticisms have been made of Kinsey's scale. One of the alternative studies included "Laumann et al. (1994) found that of the 8.6% of women reporting some same gender sexuality, 88% reported same gender sexual attraction, 41% reported some same gender sexual behaviour and 16% reported a lesbian or gay identity."
Thus, there is serious reason to suspect that Jennifer's opinion that "the bisexuals are a very small niche" is not in accordance with what studies have found.
I am a human being. My sexual orientation is Sexual. My comfort zone encompasses both genders.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieSF
To clarify: I do not agree with labeling, when applied to something that shouldn't really be labeled. Imagine, if you would; a world where people are simply people. Labels? Some are entirely necessary. I'd have a hard time betting with my friends on the outcome of a football game if there weren't ANY. lololol
Sexuality is one of those things I believe should never have been subdivided into smaller categories, and labeled according to what sort of gender a person prefers to engage in the act of sex with.
i haven't had a sexual experience with a guy. i want to be fully dressed, wig, make up, lingerie, stockings, perfume, jewelry, painted nails and be a women. I have been thinking how much I would enjoy the experience for so long, but where I live it is so difficult to find anyone who would be accepting of a sexual liaison. One day i will do it because I want it so much. For now it is just in my head and that does fulfill the urge whenever it arises. It is a difficult.
Hahahaha...exactly :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
I like boys and girls. Wether I'm "en femme" or not. Why limit myself to one gender? Life is short...And I'm grabbing it by the...well,we all know ;>)
Well I feel that I am bi and I do have fantacy's, deams and thoughts while dressed about sexual encounters with men. I don't have these when not dressed at all.
I have had acted on these recently and enjoyed my experiences, of course always playing safe. I love the role as a woman and being treated as a lady by men.
This is a great link to answer to this question. The answer is from Kinsey at Indiana University. (Just Click this link)
I've hade a thought or two on the guy thing.But I would never act on it. I'm just to straight. I'd really rather do the girl on girl thing.:hugs:
Angie
As usual I must side with Jenn although my gut feeling is that there are more BIs than she would believe, but still a minority. As far as shades of gray and so-called pansexuals for those folks who feel better believing there is such a label, or depends on circumstances, if that makes you comfortable and less stressed, I judge you not. Sadly, those professionals who study the science of the mind as well as the biology of humans haven't put circumstances and shades of gray into their vocabulary as yet --- maybe someday.
Julie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverley Sims
that story sounds so adorable, i love it! What a blessing to have such good/accepting friends.
It seems perfectly natural to want to be with a man. If you are dressed as a girl and acting like a girl it is part of the natural progression to want a boyfriend. It is natural for a woman to want to be desired by a man. You are entitled to the same feelings.
I am a very sensual and sexual person. I was also born guilty (catholic) but got over it. I am openly bisexual and probably going to hell but that is something i will have to deal with.
When my wife accepted Dee and told me to go explore the worl as a woman, she also said i should date and get a BF if i wanted to. I am not going to start trolling forguys, but if the opportunity presented itself I am sure I would explore my options
He is a woman on the inside. Thats what I told you about Reine. A lot of this behavior you see is denial. Deep down CDs want to be loved, cared for and protected by a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Well im sure you wont have trouble finding guys. you look like a beautiful princessQuote:
Originally Posted by AllisontheGoddess
Give a guy a try..... It's just sex and it washes off lol
There is a part of me that does want that to some degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmuscle
EVERYONE is bisexual. Whether they are TRY sexual is a different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
Like you said in another post, it is only sex.
My wif ean I are committed to each other and we both know who you are going home to ad who we can depend on with out question.
I think that the desire to have a boyfriend is perfectly normal for the crossdresser or transvestite. Part of the fantasy of being a woman, regardless of sexual orientation. Personally, I have this desire when transvestite and think normal, fun and mischievous.
This is an issue that really raises a lot of emotion in some people. I never thought of myself as wanting to be with another man until it just happened. I had a homosexual boyfriend who loved to see me dressed and loved me in a nightgown or in my slip. He would ask for fashion shows and he was really turned on by my being fully dressed and made up and loved to take me out to his "haunts" and show off. Making love was fantastic as I sank as completely as is possible into a feminine mind set. Strangely, when I am out in public I find myself most attracted to women as I love to see a woman who is well turned out. I find myself looking at how she dresses and how she does her hair and makeup. I pay very little attention to men and if I watch a CD movie I really don't like to see men in the scene unless they are quite feminine looking.
So, I have no idea what label to put on myself. I do find that my sexual fantasies include men and not women and they are in control and not me. Human sexuality has so many dimensions that are driven by that greatest of all sexual organs; the mind. I will let the experts try to classify. They don't seem to have had much success so far. As for some genetic explanation, it will come but don't expect it to explain everything. Our brains and a fertile imagination will always cause confusion.
Looking back on a lifetime of denial and avoidance, I would counsel confronting the issue. Act responsibly and don't hurt people if at all possible, but denial and avoidance just seems to store up trouble. Good luck!
That's just nonsense. This is the kind of resonse given by someone who wants to justify their own preference in sexuality and not be called "gay" or "bi.". Moreover, it is a statement that regardless of fact or response, one can sit back and say "well, you just haven't acted on it."Quote:
Originally Posted by LSL_Dee
I, and every other straight person on earth, haven't engaged in homosexual acts for the simple reason that we are straight. Occam's razor is a perfect fit here. And an even simpler analogy is, if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's a duck.
Actually, while not everyone is bisexual, Kinsey established pretty decisively that almost everyone has bisexual tendencies to some degree or another. It varies, from person to person, with some people (not most!) have virtually no attraction to the same sex, and some people having about 50/50 attraction to either sex. (For the people who are bisexual - that have sex with either gender from time to time, calling it equal attraction isn't quite right - from what I've been able to ascertain from talking to folks, it is more that they are attracted to the PERSON first, and sexual characteristics as a secondary thing, so they could be attracted to a male or a female who is attractive to them in some other way.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Of course, having such tendencies doesn't make one bisexual in the sense of having sex with persons of both genders. (We'll leave out the notion of non-binary gender here for pedagogical reasons - it just complicates the matter further.)
What I'm saying is that lots of males, otherwise heterosexual identifying males, will get aroused under the right circumstances from seeing another male in a sexual situation. (Same goes for females.) That doesn't mean much in terms of how he identifies in terms of his sexuality. It's just how it is.
Society, in general, is uncomfortable with this fact, although it is meticulously documented and extremely well established.
edit: Just for the record, I'm kind of sorry to report that I appear to be really straight. Having talked to a lot of bisexual people on this forum, I think bisexual people have a lot of love in their hearts, and a lot of ability to accept people for who they are, rather than how they look. I think those are really admirable qualities, and I'm a little sad that I don't share them, I fear. I think this is very misunderstood in our society, and now that I know a little more, it makes me sad.
I'm happily married to a wonderful supportive lady who knows I'd like to experience having a boyfriend. Like any other woman it would just "have to happen" for me with the right man. Do I really need to put a label on myself? No! Labelling is for those who need to find some kind of security knowing where they fit. I said this in another post. There are also those outside of our trans world who need to compartmentalize everyone to know where they fit and even feel superior or "normal." In my mind, one size does NOT fit all. And people have to get over the idea that the rules are so rigid.
Cheryl Ann
BTW, I think some sort of coordinate system would be more useful than labels - something to identify where we fall in various spectrums of sexuality and perhaps even gender identity. Coordinates aren't very user friendly though.
Another thought - I know a lot of people don't like labels. Actually, I'm kind of averse to them myself.
But the truth of the matter is that it's really hard to have a discussion and for anyone to know what in the hell you are talking about if you don't have some type of nomenclature to distinguish one thing from the other.
We can all cut and paste from Wikipedia and I will bet my life no one here owns nor has read the real study. My chief complaint of the study in general is that is was done in 1948. This was a time when Freudian thinking was all the rage but has since been proven to be largely crap. The academic criticisms of Kinsey a far more relevant:Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
"Academic criticisms were made pertaining to sample selection and sample bias in the reports' methodology. Two main problems cited were that significant portions of the samples come from prison populations and male prostitutes, and that people who volunteer to be interviewed about taboo subject are likely to suffer from the problem of self-selection. Both undermine the usefulness of the sample in terms of determining the tendencies of the overall population. In 1948, the same year as the original publication, a committee of the American Statistical Association, including notable statisticians such as John Tukey, condemned the sampling procedure. Tukey was perhaps the most vocal critic, saying, "A random selection of three people would have been better than a group of 300 chosen by Mr. Kinsey."[13][14] Criticism principally revolved around the over-representation of some groups in the sample: 25% were, or had been, prison inmates, and 5% were male prostitutes. "
Volunteer bias is the killer in any research. This same phenomenon is seen all the time when people go looking for Bigfoot, space aliens or Noah's arc. Every single searcher FINDS the thing for which they are searching.
The kinsey scale is as follows:
Rating Description
0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual (bisexual)
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual
X Asexual
Because Kinsey actually assigned people to the scale, it was inherently biased. Not only that but the subjectivity is incredible! What the heck does "only incidentally" or "more than incidentally" even mean? Ask a thousand people and you will get a thousand different answers. So many problems exist with this report and how it was constructed that it offers no more than a historic curiosity. A snap shot in time when sex was brought front and center contrary to how sex was discussed in that repressed time. An intestine side note is that this study was not peer reviewed and despite multiple efforts, no study has ever been able to duplicate the results.
Hey, I just found Bigfoot. Stay tuned.