She said no way was her son going to put on an Elsa dress

:yt: Adina

Quote:

---

what will happen the next time?

---

The same thing Wild. It will take a lot of courage to say anything. It will be regarded as Bimini trying to tell the woman how to raise her child. I might say something but I am outspoken and my friends would know I had an opinion. The OP doesn't have that luxury I assume. And it depends on how close they are too. Co-workers don't tend to accept advice on personal matters from other co-workers. A good friend might

The child is 3, they see things and they like things and sexuality or gender doesn't enter their minds. It is just playtime. The bad part is now the seed is planted and the child has this idea now that dressing is a sign of weakness or that wearing a dress makes you less (I know the mother may not have intended that but I am sure the comment was something like "Boys don't do that"). You have to be taught prejudice and stereotypes.

And as far as saying the mother is teaching the child current society values, I can only think "Thank goodness JFK's mother didn't do that" or any of the thousands of people who marched with MLK, Gloria Steinem, Cesar Chavez. Just because society says something doesn't mean it is right and by allowing people (even 3 year olds) to think for themselves is how the world evolves and gets better. We should be teaching the following generations love and acceptance, not following blindly behind. Parents can and often do take the easy way out on issues like this, after all there are so many other things they have to do as parents (no that isn't sarcasm, but the truth, they are overwhelmed with everyday). I have been in practice a long time and I am now seeing grandchildren of people who were young parents when I started. I have to tell you I can tell the children of parents who taught their kids love over hate and acceptance over staunch ideals. These kids who are now parents of their own children spend the time to explain the Vet who now is a woman. And the kids find that awesome usually, they don't question why I am doing it but celebrate who I am. Before I was "out" to most the world I did things that pushed the status quo. I would wear nail polish and sandals for one thing. One day a tween girl saw that and looked at her mother and said "Look mom, HE'S wearing polish!" The mother calmly looked at the girl and said "I know, cool huh?"

Her child. Her parenting style Right or wrong! Asfor suggesting that 3 year old justify his choice - what? I don't think it's time to risk a verbal scrap when you are caught on the back foot.

I suspect I might have said something like "there are worse things he might ask to do" and let it drop. It is her son and her parenting call.

Bimini (and all the other lovely trans folk here that I enjoy chatting to:)), I said what I did because I'm telling you the 'mom' side - the one I'm currently living. Believe me, it's war out here! Even the most open-minded, liberal, accept-everyone mother will start doubting herself and turning herself into a Stepford Wife to protect her young child. We can't stand the idea of our precious babies having a difficult life and we blame ourselves endlessly, for everything. So yes, Reine likely would have been afraid, as would I, even though I know so much more than most.

What I do know is these feelings are mostly reserved for very young children like Bimini's friend's 3 year old, and even though this mother is making snipes in public about boys and dresses, my guess is she loves her son as much as any mother and would protect his right to wear one should he really need to and when he's old enough to understand the ramifications. Until this point, it is SHE who will be blamed if her son wears a dress. Did she want a girl? Is she too clingy? Did she breastfeed him too long, or worse, not breastfeed at all?

I'm not kidding. These are the comments we live with, day in, day out, and everyday, many mothers of young children go about their day feeling judged. Thankfully, our babies will get older and more independent, and for most mothers, they're finally able to let them go and be who they will be. Until then, we live like a friend of mine who's raising a 4 year old boy who's been saying he's a girl since he can talk. Publicly, to avoid the abuse she has received from preschools and the like, her son now wears pink boys shirts and shorts and is her little boy. At home, he's her princess who can wear what she likes. Publicly, this mother would likely tell a group of friends that she'd draw a line at him wearing a dress. But one day soon, she will let him do just that because she'll know for sure that this is his choice, and not hers. She will be able to face judgment and know she's doing the right thing - something few mothers can say with confidence when their children are so young. Bimini's friend may be transphobic, or she may just be the frazzled, socially-judged mother of a 3 year old.

Bimini, I hope you give her the benefit of the doubt and have a private chat with her so she doesn't need to put on a show for the other mothers. For all you know, she might be desperately confused and scared and in need of your understanding and support. x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

Until this point, it is SHE who will be blamed if her son wears a dress. Did she want a girl? Is she too clingy? Did she breastfeed him too long, or worse, not breastfeed at all?

---

Heck, in some jurisdictions, they might even take the child away.

Deedee

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tracii G

I find that the most liberal of the bunch are the ones that are the least understanding when it comes to others opinions.

---

This is a generalization and doesn't apply to all of any category of people - but I agree, it bugs me, when someone who professes to be liberal and in favor of diversity also strongly feels that anyone whose opinion is different, is obviously and contemptibly wrong. Accepting diversity means accepting diversity of opinion.

Deedee

I also feel very uneasy when socializing with friends and family when a conversation about gender variance (of course most people use more slang labels) arises. It usually makes me sad since like the OP I usually do not speak my mind and avoid the topic, which really does not help our community. I can tell you most of these conversations are degrading to our collective community and the main purpose is to achieve a cheap laugh. I hope soon I can change my mindset and stand up for all of us and try to educate some people.

Parenting is probably the most difficult job we have to do in our lives but I think we have to teach our kids about tolerance and respect for others and ourselves, and do the best we can for them. We have to let our children know that being different does not make anyone bad or evil, they could be different in skin colour, sexual orientation, tall, short disabled or what ever.

It will be extremely difficult for a mother to not get negatively effected by her 3 year old sons wish to wear a dress if she never had a personal relationship with a transgendered person and made an afford to understand him/her and realises our issues to a degree. If the mother is easily affected by peer and social pressures then it makes it harder to see things objectively. I can certainly understand not encouraging her son to wear a dress but I think negatively depriving her son’s wishes is not the best way to go. Like previously said parenting is very personal and sensitive and it is very easy to offend others. I personally know parents who are scared that their kids will grow up to be gay or lesbian and they make it obvious to a little child and it makes me really sad.

Hi all,

Goodness . . . it is hard to believe that the OP's post transcended into a "parenting style" debate . . . or is it :).

I believe Bimini handled it in a decent way. Geez, we all don't have to raise the TG banner and get into a knock down Spartacus death match about what is right and what is wrong. It if works for you, then do so but don't fault the OP for not doing what in your opinion is the right thing.

Seriously, you are going to get into an argument over parenting skill just because you happen to be TG. Don't get me wrong, if an adult is sitting in a group of people belittling and TG person, I will be the first "boy" or "girl" to lead the charge of righteous retribution. :devil: However, this was the mother of a three year old boy, who may or may not be TG. It is her call whether you like it or not.

Let's reverse this conversation and say you are a group of manly men sitting around discussing your sons. One guy says he wants his son to play hockey because it will teach him sportsmanship . . . um sure it will. If you have more of a predilection towards ballet, dance and yoga are your going just blurt out "Hockey will only teach your son to be violent and mean . . . now ballet that is something you should get him into". Not likely. Why? Because it is quite frankly none of your business. She was not hurting the boy, she was not being a bad parent . . . she was being a mother. Does she hate TGs? Don't know, can't say. Her comments may have just been a reaction to an awkward moment.

I am not advocating leaving people in ignorance when it comes to the TG battle but come on this was a three year old boy and a mother who only wants the best for him. Find another hill to charge ... preferably one with an adult making fun of TGs on it.

Hugs

Isha

Thanks to all I feel better just realizing I am not alone. I felt alone at the table like everyone is against me. Now there are a couple of ladies in this lunchroom clique that have made disparaging comments. One of which whom said TG is akin to self-mutilation. Again, silence from me. Never heard the mother in question say anything overtly offensive. I'm just scared if I put up a differing opinion they will all gang up on me. I feel its just not worth it. I just cannot let it affect my self worth. Bottom line is not only am I after self acceptance but must also accept the opinions of others. Still hurts though to hear this kind of stuff.
It's not going to go away and neither is my TG.

At some point Bimini you may need to decide whether you value your self worth based on the opinion of others versus being true to your own ideals. This goes for everything, not just our little CD world, but EVERYTHING, from your opinion on refuges to religious tolerance to the right to have same sex relations.
You do not need to draw attention to yourself. As Tinkerbell has said, sometimes there is a lot of social bluff in these issues, present a reasonable and valid argument as to why it may not be such a horrific problem (it always helps if some of the more vocal like your friend who said TG is akin to self mutilation has had some form of plastic surgery :)), do not attack anyone personally, and I suspect you will be surprised how many of your friends at least murmur agreement. Talk about research, documentaries, popular admirable figures who are trans, there are a few out there. But if you sit there in silence then you condemn yourself as much as you condemn others.
And I am not saying it is easy. It isn't. It's horrible and hard and you will perhaps be ganged up on and ridiculed. The question is what do you value most, your own personal integrity or social acceptance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bimini1

<snip> This is what I come to the lunch table to hear on a semi-regular basis. I wanted to crawl under the table. Had to just grin and bear it. Can't blame her either. There is no way out. It's not going to be accepted any time soon is it?

---

And yet, this is exactly what so many people here prefer to ignore. The pink fog is strong on this forum. We want so much to be accepted, we will ignore any mention of non acceptance. After all, if you don't acknowledge it, then it isn't there, right? Times haven't changed that much yet. Little girls can still want to be cowboys, astronauts, soldiers, racing drivers, etc, all kinds of things that used to be primarily only for boys, but boys are NOT allowed to want to be princesses, etc. It still freaks people out.

Faced with this situation, I probably wouldn't do much other than give the offending person(s) a scowl or glower, otherwise known as The Look, to tell them I don't agree with their opinion. If they ask questions, I'll tell them. In this case, I think the mother's fears are unfounded. It's an experiment on the part of the son.

It seems to me there was a lot of gratuitous excitement over the head of J. Crew or other well-known apparel vendor painting her young son's toenails pink a few years ago. This is no different, IMHO.

All of us must make decisions on our actions based on our comfort level with the ensuing discussion or conflict. This is the kind of thing people don't change their opinions over easily.

Sorry but I haven't read anything on this post... I just want to say this: I FREAKING LOVE THAT ELSA DRESS OMG!!! Carry on... sorry for not being on topic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-old-son.html

Bimini, this older article I remember reading shows the other side of all this and might give you some hope that it won't always be this way, for any of us :)

Thanks Tinkerbell, that article is awesome!

In such a situation, I'd remind her to be wary of putting high expectations on his too young son that may not become an idealistically perfect male she has not found in any other man including her husband, that kids this age (and much older !) should be free to innocently entertain impersonating any cute character of movie or book, and that bringing frustation into him by forbidding to get in touch with his feminine side could lead to identity problems later.

It seems that some are focused on the blown opportunity to stand up for the trans community, rather than focusing on a blown opportunity to help the mother to explore what's behind the boy's desire to wear a dress, for the benefit of the boy. It's very possible that the boy doesn't have any gender issues, and just wants to wear the costume once. If he does have gender issues, slinging around transphobia labels isn't any help to him.

Yeah, I made more out of it than what it was, saw things in it that may or may not have even been there. It's totally my issue and not hers. I have to keep learning from life and moving on toward's self realization, actualization and acceptance. She can do what she wants, got absolutely nothing to do with me. They all can do what they want, feel how they feel. I can't judge 'em that is when I get into trouble. I am just as entitled to an opinion as everyone else is. I need to work at changing my own attitudes first.

I'm finding that the truth of the matter is I may be transphobic. Which is a sad case in and of itself. To be afraid of your own self. I can delude myself into thinking that I'm not, but the proof is in the actions. If I wasn't, then what anyone said or says negatively about TG/CD would just roll off. But it doesn't because deep down I can't express an alternate opinion because maybe I secretly agree with what is being said. That there IS something wrong with it.

I'm damm near 50 years old, it's time to face the music. Thing is, I think so many times I've gotten past this point, and there is some evidence of that. Because I have progressed somewhat. I'm better than I used to be about it. But then The Universe sends me a test, I still fail. Got serious work to do, on me.

Honey, you didn't fail a test and you aren't transphobic. You just aren't. You kept quiet to preserve your secret. It happens, ok?

The NIMBY attitude is alive and well here. You are not alone.

But, it looks to me like YOU are at the tipping point, where you are willing to change your attitude.

Good for you.

All this talk about the Elsa dress, where can I get one, plus size 22?

You can point out that in Shakespeare's time all the parts were acted by men and boys. Boys played all the female parts, and well. AND up until after WW2 pink was considered a boys color. It was a lighter shade of red which was masculine.

Understanding crossdresser is too dificult for parallel dresser.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-old-son.html

)

---

I just now saw this. That man is my hero!

Thank you for sharing it Tinkerbell.
Hug
Rita

Some parents really make me angry they are so worried about what others think and how it will make "them look" The question I would of asked to that little boy would by "ok why's that son" because you have to listen to kids, if you cut them dead in the things they wish to do then it will cook up problems later down the line and as the old saying goes "the more you tell someone not to do something the more their going to want to do it" personally I don't see now harm in it, anyway it's like I can say anything lol, if it was my son I would just say "ok that's cool but remember that not everyone will see you the way I see you and you may get some hurtful thing thrown at you" if he takes that on board and still wishes to do it then I'd be fully on board.

Tinkerbell is right on this one, who is to say she feels the way she does because she has some deep burning hatred of trans people? (What are the odds she even knows any trans people?) She may want to protect her son from ridicule and abuse from others. She may want to steer her child toward more "gender conforming" behavior because she is afraid if he continues wearing dresses it will cause him problems later in life (and in all fairness, many trans people do have difficulties in life because of their trans-ness.) I am not saying it would work if he really wanted to dress up (especially if he was a TS), but I can understand why she would not want her son to have to suffer from all the problems he may have because he is "different".

I agree. If i had a son I wouldn't want him wearing Elsa's dress either. Anna's outfit has much more depth and would be the better choice in my opinion. *rimshot*

After all the crusading and recrimination here dies down, I just want to observe that, with all the strong women characters in kids films now and in the future, we can only hope that there will be more boys wanting to wear dresses, that there will be parents ok with that, and that the needle of public acceptance will perceptibly move.

Wow I had no idea this thread still had some traction. I was just actually thinking about it this past week when another one of the co-workers I eat with actually said the word transvestite right there at the table, and, er, not in a good way. And again, I just did not know what to say. It caught me so off guard just out of the blue she calls some one transvestite. What are the odds a real transvestite was sitting right there across from her? To tell the truth it scared the H-E-double L out of me when she said it. For, I had a couple of days off coming up where I would be dressed at home all day both days and it was ironic that she would say that at that time. Maybe the Universe was talking I do not know but I was certainly taken aback.

I have not heard much more from the other one who made the initial statement. She is pregnant now with 3rd child and I asked did she know the gender yet. Said she was not gonna find out but did go into alot about well everyone else wants to know so they will know what to buy (blue or pink). The other one (the one who said TV) is also preggers and asked me to give a "man's perspective" on why her husband, upon finding out the upcoming baby is a boy, got mad because they had painted the room a soft yellow color. He wants to repaint it in a more masculine color, and she wanted my feeling on it.
I told her I thought it was ridiculous and I am the last one who would come at her with the gender police. I left it at that. So it's funny this thread came back up at this time, must have been that energy in the air as I feel it all to be connected. Life goes on and I am feeling pretty good about myself.

One thing a man, CD or non CD must be aware of. Mothers do not like men telling them what to do with their kids. Even though, the advice is good! Ever hear of bothering a mother bear with her cubs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SabrinaMarie

All this talk about the Elsa dress, where can I get one, plus size 22?

---

That would be ebay. Search for cosplay dresses, there are manufacturers in China that will sew you absolutely anything you want. For a price, of course. Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Disney-Movie...item417f37ba6b
If you ask, perhaps they can make one just for you, just a little larger than their 3XL if needed? You'll have to send them your measurements (Be generous; I found that the chest, armholes and sleeves were too tight if I gave exact measurments, but then after a few 'mistakes', mine, not theirs, I wound up with exactly what I wanted). If not, there are lots of other ebay merchants out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bimini1

The woman who said it is a great friend. I considered her to be an ally as she has made affirming statements about gays before. But as we all know, to be gay friendly does not add up to being T friendly. Son is 3 going on 4. She also has 5 year old daughter. Now what I probably should have said was what if her daughter wanted to dress up as a male character what would her feeling on that be? May have been the same but I'd wager not.

---

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say she would have been perfecly ok with her daughter emulating a male character. After all, despite it being 2014, both men and women still behave as if male is better than female.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT IS.
But both men and women insult men by calling us ladies, wimps, pussies, girls, sissies, etc., and you never see the reverse (even some female coaches denigrate their female players by calling them effeminate terms!). And little girls are still socialized to value getting married and having children as their primary goal in life, even though they are 'allowed' to pursue careers, they're still expected to 'catch' a husband, and if they haven't by age oh, 30, many treat them like they're a failure in life. I work with primarily women, and over and over I still see the worry as they approach the big 3 - OH if they're not engaged or married. It's very, very real. (One woman is currently getting ready to get married to a guy she doesn't love, all because she'll be 30 and 'its time to get married', both she and her family were in a panic when last fiance dumped her at 28, so she's now being pushed into marriage by virtually everyone around her. Her opinion of him? 'Well, he's a nice enough guy. It won't be so bad'. I see a disastrous future for her, yet, have no say in her future; I know that there have been millions of marriages in the past that had no love, no passion, yet both parties went ahead with it and lived out their lives. Yet it bothers me to no end that this woman feels she must do this).
Stay at home moms are not considered great people in history. There are no Nobel prizes for being a great wife and mom, no headlines, no bestsellers about their lives, no hit movies, even no TV shows where the mom is the star for being what EVERYONE ELSE needs her to be for decades on end. So for a parent to see a little boy wanting to be feminine, yes, most parents are going to be concerned, because a female's life is still considered a step downward in status to most of the world.
I'M NOT SAYING IT IS! But that's how most people feel.

Hi Bimini, It sounds like you need to find another place to eat lunch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BLUE ORCHID

Hi Bimini, It sounds like you need to find another place to eat lunch.

---

It won't matter. I've concluded that for the most part, the whole place is virulently transphobic. Tired of running from it. Scary part is these are professional people, I would tend to expect a little more from them.