That's a different discussion entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.
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That's a different discussion entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.
Unfortunately, it doesn't make a lot of difference. Usually we transgender people (in the broad sense of the term) are much more identifiable. You would be hard pressed to tell a pedophile or rapist just by looking at them. No so with us. We are much easier targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
DeeAnn
Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.
I feel sorry if the people over the pond take Caitlyn less seriously because she is in a reality show family.
Being related to someone doesn't make you like them.
I really do think we're lower than that here in Texas. After all, there is no law that prevents pedophiles and rapists from using public restrooms, but they sure as hell tried to pass four different laws this year that would've made it illegal for me to use a public restroom, because it's assumed that I'm a rapist and / or a pedophile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Firstly, I didn't put us in a category compared to criminals. In fact, I didn't compare us to criminals at all. Do not put words into my mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Secondly, I agree with you - being related to someone doesn't make you like them. I'm not expressing my view here, I'm simply highlighting the view that many people have expressed here in the UK.
I believe that it comes from being raised as a boy, and believing that our penis is the center of everything. Its what we are told defines us as better than girls; we have something, they have nothing. Later in life, that concept of a penis being superior to a vulva is constantly reinforced by the rest of the males, in fact lots of females as well, whenever the term pu$$y or sissy is used to insult a boy. It never stops. Grown males continue to believe so strongly that their penis is the center of all female pleasure, despite the fact that over 2/3 of women cannot reach orgasm through vaginal stimulation alone. None of it matters in the penis central world of men. Even guys with small penises insist that they can make any woman come by intercourse. The desperate cling to ignorance out there is astounding. I think here, though, it's a reaction to how the world MIGHT perceive us. Homophobia is very deeply seated in us from childhood on. It's hard to get rid of it entirely, because of the effects it has on our life. We dress up in female clothing, even if we're heterosexual. That alone will make it almost impossible to find a female mate. When you add to that, the possibility that we are in denial about being gay which is suggested by so much of the world, it pretty much eliminates any chance that any woman would be attracted to us. So we insist loudly that we still have nice penises which get nice and hard and can sustain intercourse for great periods of time, all in the effort to convince even one woman that we are still straight. We're in a difficult situation; gay by association.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
I have to wonder though, I think she knew what she was doing. After all, she could have stayed in the background and avoided as much publicity as she could, and let the younger women of the family remain up front in the spotlight. During the interview, I got the impression that she knew what could happen, and decided that she'd 'let it all hang out' and let the world know exactly what a transsexual was, was not, and what we could be. It definitely started lots of conversations. I did find myself educating a lot of people at work about all the differences, whether they thought I was TS or not no one suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Joanne~
I support Caitlyn because she's gotten the discussion started in so many areas where no one would ever think to mention it. Her decision to stay in the media spotlight will keep the topic current for quite a while. All we can do is hope more people will come to accept gender variations as normal, and accept us for who we really are, not what they used to think we are.
Next up,
and then,Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
You forget. In lots of people's minds, they think that because we're sexual deviates (their opinion, not mine), we are likely to be pedophiles, and many women think that we dress up as women because we want to get into women's rest rooms to rape them. Absurd, from our point of view, yes. But that's how a lot of people think, perfectly exemplefied by:Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
andQuote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
thenQuote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
WE don't hurt them. They CHOOSE to feel hurt because they don't like what we do WITH OURSELVES.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
There is a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
You never cease to amaze me. Did you read her whole post? or did you just do as you always do, take a piece out of a paragraph and place it so that it is totally out of context and that it makes the poster look as if they are attacking the community as a whole? This is what has happened to My posts as well. You took whatever little pieces you wanted and placed them as if that was my whole post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Moving on, I wasn't going to respond to this post again, honestly, I never was going to go past my original first post because I knew that not being on the Caitlyn Jenner band wagon was not going to make Me popular. She is every where right now and all the praise she is getting I do believe is a bit misguided.
let Me make a couple things clear....if possible
1. I am not an English major. Matter of fact, while I did very well in high school with the subject, I never went much further than that with it. That being said, I do realize that a lot of times the words that I chose, the sentences I form, and the thoughts I tried to convey did not come across on the written page as I intended. It also comes down to how people READ the words that are there and if they consider the whole context that they go with or if they pick and chose what they read. I, for the record, also never won any spelling bees either.
I never meant to imply that anyone here, or in the world, is not considered a woman just because they haven't had genital surgery. I understand there are different "levels" of being TG, as with Cding, and that not all TG people will need to go all the way. They were born with a female's soul, trapped in a male's body and I will never know that feeling. I will never know the pain you are suffering just to live a daily life, the emotions you feel or the injustice that you will need to over come and for that I apologize if you took the bits and pieces of my bad wording and it stabbed you like a knife, it was never my intent.
I also understand that a few can not fulfill their goals of becoming "complete" due to the finances of it, maybe the health issues that prevent it, or any other circumstance that may prevent you from reaching your goals, IF that is your goal, fully. This also brings me back to Caitlyn Jenner though which was the topic at hand. Clearly she has the money to finish the transition and she also has the health (which is completely an assumption on my part) so why hasn't she decided to finish the process to become the person she is claiming to be and has been her whole life? Do not take this wrong or read this wrong, my knowledge of TG is limited but isn't that the goal of someone that is transgender?
Katey888 said it best here:
This is what I was trying to convey with a later post but obviously my words were lost due to poor writing skills or poor reading skills. Their world is not the same as our world. Never has been, never will be. While CJ is center stage for the TG community, and the biggest to date to ever come along, what happens IF she does transition back? Where does that leave this community in the opinions of the general public? I will be honest, when I heard she had not fully transitioned, the first thought to enter my mind was that IF she did go back, if this was a publicity stunt, she could because she didn't fully transition and it would destroy any momentum that the TG community has gained from her being center stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
Matter of fact, it would probably do more damage than anyone can begin to comprehend. If Time magazine comes out a year from now, two years from now, when ever, IF it ever does and the cover says: Caitlyn Jenner Fraud! Goes back to being Bruce! Where does that leave the TG community? At that point, it leaves it looking like we flip a switch and go back and forth when that statement isn't true but in the eyes of the general public?
Now going to #2....
I am not TG. I am a CD. While they say that I fit under the LGBT umbrella, I do not, I can not even comprehend how I could. There is no "C" in there (not that a letter defines the term). I am not gay, I am not a Lesbian, I am not Bisexual, and I am clearly not TG/TS. I cross dress. I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed (because it's odd to ME to be dressed as such and act manly) and when ever that time ends, be it an hour, a day, when ever...I go back to being me. While this is a part of me, I do love it and have embraced it, it's not even half of who I am. While I enjoy the calmness that I get and like to explore the world as a woman lives daily, it does not make Me a woman.
I joined this forum solely because I thought it was about crossdressing after, all, The name implys it, even the sub title implys it, yet we are treated like third class citizens here. We fall Under the transgender folks on the forum and even the GG's on this forum. Where is our place in this community let alone under the LGBT umbrella? Maybe it's time for a name change because Crossdressing is surely not at the fore front of this community. I am not saying that it should be either, because lorileah can't wait to tear that snippet out and raise hell over it, but does it even, or do we, have a place here at this point?
I feel, and this is my opinion, that is the reason many of us fail to understand the whole Transgender thing, as it is not what we are here for, we can't possibly relate. We do not have the FULL knowledge to back anything posted about being TG and the reason why my post came across as cold hearted or coarse. I usually do not post to any thread TG related due to this fact, I have so very little knowledge of who you are, what you go through, or what your end goal is. All I do have knowledge about is being CD and even that is limited because the question "why?" can not ever be answered.
I only replied to this post because of this quote:
I asked like what and with little TG knowledge stated that full surgery is what I thought the ultimate goal was for a transgender person. That was my mistake followed by continuing that mistake and I do apologize to everyone that it affected. That was never my intent nor my goal. I am human, this whole lifestyle, whether it be TG or CD is a huge learning experience, that is part of the reason that we are all here. To date though, My asking Like what? still hasn't been answered not that it needs an answer now. It's moot at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkilovesdresses
Joanne,
There is so much in your last post I want to try to address. First, what makes you think Caitlyn's transformation is just some elaborate publicity stunt? If she was just searching for a little of her own limelight she could have just left stories about her identity up to the tabloid media and garnered plenty of attention that way. Instead she chose to use major media outlets like ABC News and Vanity Fair to explain her decision to start living as a woman. She then goes as far to have FFS and breast implants, changes that are not easy to reverse and are very expensive. To me these are the actions of a person who is commited to a path for her life because she believes it is right for her. I know you qualified your speculation with a big IF, but I think the usefulness of a hypothetical is proportional the likeliness of it being true. You asume because she has not had SRS yet she is somehow keeping her options open. Other than a delay in her process, what evidence do you have to support your claims.
To your claim that as a CD you dont fit under the LGBT umbrella, I have to disagree. The one thing that unites all of these individuals is that they behave in a way that is atypical for a person of their biological sex be it who they sleep with or how they choose to appear, and are discriminated against by many for trying to be themselves. You proudly assert "I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed " These are not the behaviors of your typical man. Apparantly you missed the huge argument we had here over the last month regarding terminology, but there is a growing consensus, especially by the psychological community, that the term Transgender should be used to describe anyone who gender identity or form of gender expression does not match one's assigned sex. Now you may not wish to accept such a definition, but to a lot of folks you are TG just not TS.
In no way are CDs third-class citizens on this site because there are no classes around here. This forum exists to share ideas and to support one another in all of our various forms of gender expresion. Go to the Pictures and Video side and you'll see plenty of examples of CDs enjoying life as CDs and being supported in it by people from all points along the TG spectrum. Everyone here is allowed to expres their opinions. Just because they aren't universally accepted by everyone does not diminish the value of the person making them.
Now, as to your first post where you questioned Nikki's statement "Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of." I can see where you are coming from. A lot of that statement hinges on what constitutes "more" for the TS cause. CJ has certainly brought more awarenss to TG individuals, but has anything changed in terms of legal rights and protections in the past week or month? The truth is we won't really know the extent of Caitlyn's contribution for many months or years to come.
Now I apologize if I've come across harshly. There was just so much in your post I disagreed with, but as I said, this place exists to exchange opinions, and hopefully be challenged by them so we can grow as human beings. Best wishes.
Bridget
Bridget is right on the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Ann Gilbert
I know many of you on here think "I am a manly man. I mow the lawn. I work on the car. I watch NASCAR and Football." Unfortunately, should your little secret be known, you are not going to be viewed exactly the same as other men by most of the population, I am very sorry to tell you.
In fact, in some ways, your situation is worse than mine in terms of public understanding. I am a woman. I look like a woman. I sound like a woman. I smell like a woman. I feel like one. People get that. I show them old pictures and they say "uh, ok, if you say that's you, then uh, sure. Looks like some random dude to me."
Do you think your story is easier to understand than mine? Let me assure you, it is not.
And one last point, and really the thing that binds us together, even if we have nothing else in common. If the wrong dudes catch you out in the open in your dress, they will murder you just as brutally as they would murder a trans woman. And folks, a lot of us get murdered every year.
So I'd suggest you think really hard about who your friends are, sisters. Because if it weren't for the work some of us are doing on your behalf, you could be murdered and no one would care. If not for us, who would stand up for you? Most of you are completely unwilling to stand up for yourselves. Trust me on this - this is a cruel old world. And it is always on the lookout for more scapegoats. And you don't want that particular distinction to fall upon you. Oh no you do not.
Because trust me, your cries of "I'm really a man!!!!" will not help you when someone is beating you.
Yes, that's the thing. Anyone that would visit violence on another human does not have sufficient intelligence and the ability to reason and discern at that point in time. They are NOT going to say "Oh, those crossdressers are OK, it those damned transsexuals that I HATE!!!". No, there is ONE brush and ONE color...Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
We live together or we die together. It doesn't come any more simple than that.
DeeAnn
Bruce Jenner's transition to Caitlyn is threatening to a lot of men for many reasons. As mentioned, he was the role model Olympic champion, a husband, father, a man's man. And then he admits that he accomplished family, fame and fortune being a woman inside. He became un-manly. He cried. He admitted his feelings. He became beautiful. He became Caitlyn.
The thought that this really happened to Bruce Jenner threatens many men. I am not supporting their sentiments which are based, perhaps in ignorance, prejudice or fear. But I understand why they might react negatively. And what if they had to deal with their own innermost feelings?
Heather, I hear that all the time from people here, but not outside of this site. Do situations like Caitlyn Jenner really threaten the masculinity of a large number of males? Are there any studies about those stereotypical ape heads who would react caveman like to a lot of silly and truly non-threatening things. Is it something that should even be considered when analyzing situations like Jenner's? I think most men just say, "Oh, that is not me nor anyone that I know so why should I worry about it?", i.e. they hear or see it, register it and then go back to their own lives with their own issues. They may not understand and they may not even want to understand because it is outside of their own daily lives. I think that we make a bigger deal of it than it really is.
There are ignorant and almost un-teachable people all over the place, but I would guess that only a few of them would react like that. Yes, it only takes a few, like a rotten apples, to spoil the true picture for others. Most of our worry is in our minds and not in reality. Just like the fear of so many here who do not go out because they fear what might happen when reading all of the going out threads here that say exactly the opposite.
Hmmm let me quote your postQuote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
that isn't comparing? You used examples of things that are above "us" that are criminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
To answer an earlier question you have.....about Caitlyn visiting the TS boards...You do understand anonymity right? For all I know you are a famous politician or star or football player. You don't know that she is or isn't right now reading this wondering how the people in the UK dislike her for marrying a woman and adopting her daughters. For all I know your Kate Middleton is the admin here. She rules royally. :heehee:
You cite a small number of Brits I'm sure.
And yes Joanne, I read the whole post. See above. When people say "Well you're better than being a murderer" that's comparing. I read your posts too...and I still don't get how you can be so uninformed about the transsexual community.
Comparing any form of crossdressing to the being a pepohile or molester is crazy. I know the point you were trying to make but it is a poor one like using the word rape around women. I have been molested and it is the worst thing that can happen to child...they simply are not ready for it. That said , what we do is defiantly shunned by most men in society but not any way to the degree of that of a molester. One is criminal the other is not to start.
Jenni_xx, how dare you point out that transgender are not considered lower than pedophiles and rapists by society. Didn't you know it is less transphobic to point out that transgender are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy i.e. below criminals than to say we are above them?:) :brolleyes:
let me see if I can follow this; PaulaQ says TGs are at the bottom of society's hierarchy, Jenni_xx says no we are at least above pedophiles and rapists in the eyes of society, and now Jenni_xx is receiving ire for elevating trans above criminals?
Seriously does anyone read arguments or do they just go into some knee-jerk defcom4 when they read pedophiles and rapists in a topic about transgenderism?
I think I read it very closely and don't think the comparison is very good...just an opinion ...
Paula expressed an opinion that transgendered people are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy. I disagreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.
Yes, hence why I posted my thoughts as to whether she has been here or not. Just to be clear, I wasn't for one moment expecting someone to reply saying "yes she has" or "no she hasn't".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
You're right to be sure. The approximate number, based on the number of message board posts, is several hundred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I'll ask the same question that I asked Lorileah above. Do you agree with Paula that we are the bottom or the societal hierarchy, or do you agree with me that we aren't?Quote:
Originally Posted by txcrossdress
Thank you!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant
Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.
There is nothing worst then a pedophile period so obviously no...crossdressing is something for you, pedophile is something that violates someone else...again not sure why the comparison even exists.
I'm using them as two examples of groups of people who are regarded as being lower in society than transgendered people are in order to illustrate why I disagree with Paula's comment.
That's like saying would you prefer to get blown away by a tornado or a hurricane? It doesn't make much difference. Devastation is devastation...
I think a lot of people don't read. They scan. And they don't consider, they react.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant
has to read posts, is my job
I am not suggesting that transgender people are worse than pedophiles. The lawmakers in Texas absolutely make this comparison about us. Did you in any way respond to the various bills in this state that would've criminalized us? I did - I wrote my representatives, and lobbied in Austin. Their rationale for trying to put us in jail for using public restrooms was that we (trans women) are rapists and pedophiles, men out to attack their daughters and wives in public restrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by txcrossdress
There are NO laws against convicted pedophiles or other sex offenders using public restrooms. Even if such laws existed, sex offenders are invisible - you can't tell who is a convicted sex offender just by looking at them.
But you sure can spot some of us. We are highly visible.
I don't actually care who is the very lowest rung of the social ladder. A lot of us have similar problems to convicted felons in our lives once we start transition:
- unable to rent housing in many cases
- unable to gain employment
- sometimes unable to vote
The type of discrimination many of us face is comparable to what ex-cons go through - only here's the kicker - we didn't do anything to hurt anyone else.
I find it pretty offensive that a couple of part time CDs are lecturing me about how easy it is to be transgender. Apparently our situation is not so bad that we can just pointlessly argue about who has it worse, and be told by someone who doesn't face this type of discrimination that things aren't so bad. Because that's what you are saying, right?
Here's some fun true stories about life as trans:
My roommate, who is also transgender, is my roommate because a gang of transphobic men attacked her, multiple times at her apartment complex in Plano Texas. The police told her "you aren't safe here."
My friend in Tulsa who was savagely raped, her jaw broken. The guys who did it probably only planned on a regular old gang rape - things turned extra savage once they got her jeans off and saw she was trans. She still suffers from PTSD.
I spent three horrible hours last year with a dude who pretty obviously intended to rape me. He certainly talked about doing it enough. Somehow, I got out of this. He was looking for a trans woman when he found me. He knew exactly where to look too.
One of the women who attends my group became suicidal after she lost her job because she's trans.
I can keep citing examples like this for a good long time. I have a hard time finding a doctor for many things, because as soon as I say the word "transgender", I'm told " oh, sorry, we don't do that."
So if you feel you have somehow shown me that I don't have it so bad because I'm not a convicted sex offender, I have to tell you that watching a convicted felon I know struggle, and watching some of the trans people I know struggle, there isn't a hell of a lot of difference in some of the difficulties they face in life. Again, the difference between the ex-con I know, and the trans people I know, us that most of us didn't break a single law, yet we often struggle like someone who did.
Txcrossdress, when I talk to people about being trans, they no longer view me as being fully human:
1. They start using male pronouns - even when they used female pronouns before I disclosed to them.
2. They ask the most intrusive and inappropriate questions about my body.
3. They ask really inappropriate questions about my relationship - in essence they wanna know which one of us ****s the other
4. I lost all but one of my past friends.
I can go on with this list too!
I've been at this coming on two years now. I pass quite well. I'm one of the lucky ones. I know many, many trans women who don't pass, and who probably never will. Their lives are enormously difficult.
So please try and have some compassion. Transition is really hard. If you aren't fulltime, I doubt you've experienced some of the worst problems we face.
What possible point can you even have in arguing this stuff?
hi girls, I think steve tyler has done more good for crossdressers then Caitlyn, the guy mixes bracets , womens cloths sashays and the still is admired by both women and streath men , as a guitar player and crossdresser , him and jimi and david bowie were my brake thru to who I am and many other males from my generation and showed us it was all right to mix it up. hugs lynda
Paula, I think conclusions are being drawn here that are going way off the point in regards to what is actually being said. Personally, I am not trying to say that "you don't have it so bad because you're not a convicted sex offender". I'm not trying to belittle anything that you've experienced. That wasn't my intention at all. I'm not trying to say that we're viewed in a generally positive and accepting light by society. My reason for joining this thread in the first place was to comment on how people here in the UK are reacting negatively to Caitlyn Jenner, and try an explain that because of how such people react more generally to the Kardashian media-obsession, Caitlyn's situation isn't being viewed by many as a serious situation in its own right, but rather being belittled to "just another example of the KUWTK circus show".
I did and do disagree with your comment that we (as a group as a whole) are "at the bottom of the societal hierarchy". I don't think that we (as a group as a whole) are. That doesn't mean that I think that (to quote yourself) "our situation is not so bad". Or that the problems we do face as a group are not important. Or that we don't face discrimination.
In response you seem to have been offended that I think society views this group or that group in a much more negative light than they do our group. More so, you seem to be offended that it is a part-time CD who has said this to you. You are pulling rank in the transgendered community by saying your problems and experiences are worse than mine. I don't see that as you belittling the problems that I do face however. On the contrary, I agree with you - your problems and experiences are and have been worse than mine.
Yet, when I disagreed with your comment that we as a group are seen as the "bottom of society", your response seems to indicate that you feel I am belittling the problems that you do and have faced. Just to be clear, I'm not. That was never my intention.
No, I'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
My entire point has been that we share many common problems, and that someone who discriminates against us doesn't care about whether we are CD or TS.
What bothered me is that I get the impression that you and some other CDs don't really understand the privilege you have in being able to pass for cisgender - i.e. go out in drab.
Please don't misunderstand me. I have great sympathy for the misery many CDs express while leading a double life. That is not a privilege. A life lived in the closet, hiding from loved ones and friends is terrible. I know - I did it for 50 years.
However, I presume you can pick and choose your battles, avoiding situations such as:
- Your job
- Courtroom appearances
- Routine traffic stops (unless you are out en femme a lot)
- Many other public settings other than carefully chosen outings
- explaining to family why you wear a dress
The ability to avoid these situations by appearing cis means you don't really have to experience what those of us who transition have experienced. Your ability to be dismissive of our problems because you don't experience them yourself is the essence of privilege.
Now perhaps I've misjudged you or txcrossdress. Perhaps you are like Isha, and out everywhere a lot. I doubt this, because Isha experiences some of the same issues I'm discussing, transphobic prejudice, and reports them. I've not seen similar things from either of you, but if I have misunderstood or mischaracterized your situation, then I sincerely apologize.
I'll also allow that where you live may be a LOT different than where I live. Texas is a hell-hole for trans people.
But I very definitely object to the dismissive seeming comments. I lost every close friend I had when I came out as trans. Friends I'd had for thirty years. I'm lucky, because I kept my job (so far) and my immediate family. I lost my marriage of 18 years. I told you other really horrible stories that either happened to me, or that I got firsthand from a friend to whom they happened.
And yet y'all really want to quibble over whether those of us who transition are viewed better or worse than sex offenders? Who cares? (And again, I'd point out that a lot of the dialog about trans women in the U.S. directly comparesus to sex offenders. That is what we are in the opinion of a great many people in America.) My point is that what I see in our community (I lead one of the largest trans outreach groups in my state) are often dire cases of discrimination and socially ostracized trans people. We are not treated kindly, in general.
One of the biggest problems I see in the community I deal with are people who have NO ONE in their lives. No friends. No family. No friendly coworkers. No one. I certainly hope your life isn't like that, but if it isn't, I think you'd have to allow that you probably don't really know what living that way, month in, month out, would be like.
I have no idea what social pressures are faced by pedophiles or sex offenders. My point is that what many of us experience is terrible, and unlike them, we've committed no crime! I think this is a significant point. We are ostracized, but we aren't hurting anyone!
I'm very sorry you thought I was pulling rank. There is no rank. I have direct experiences I suspect you don't have both personally, and because of the organization I lead. I felt offended because you seemed to be offering opinions on matters that you have the opportunity to avoid. There has been a lot of that going on here in the CD forum lately.
If I have misjudged or mischaracterized your situation, please set me straight and I'll apologize.
I hope that I've given you my perspective on why I don't think public opinion of trans people in my country could be much worse than it is. I've seen direct improvements here because of Jenner's story.
I completely agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I am not privileged because I am able to present myself, and be happy with myself, while dressed in attire that society deems appropriate for my birth gender. I presume men don't feel privileged whenever they wear a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, nor do I presume that women feel privileged when they wear a dress. Such a thought process most probably doesn't even enter their consciousness. Is it a privilege to wear a certain item of clothing, or to present oneself in a certain way? I would say that a better way of phrasing your point here would be to not to talk about "understanding a privilege", but rather to talk about NOT understanding the difficulty that people such as yourself face in just wanting to be accepted for who you actually are. privilege is the wrong word in my opinion. I can relate to that, but only to a small degree - a degree that is more understanding and empathetic than non-transgendered people, but is nonetheless a degree that is a lot smaller than what you have had to go through.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Before I come out as gay, I had girlfriends. I told all of them. Some were accepting. Others it become a primary factor in the relationship ending. After coming out as gay, I met a man who I entered into a civil partnership. I told him the first time I met him that I am CD. He accepted it. The relationship ended last year when our civil partnership was dissolved. He walked out on me, and to this day I don't know why. I am now dating a man who I told, but who doesn't accept it. My reaction to that has been to accept that he doesn't accept it. That is something for me to deal with. When I come out as gay, I lost friends, and lost the respect of several family members. Yet I found it easier to come out to these people than I ever did to come out as a crossdresser. To the point that everyone knows that I'm gay, but not everyone knows I crossdress. That is just my personal experience, but it is one that I feel enables me to emphasise with people who struggle for acceptance from others. That is, I believe, something that is common to us all, irrespective of where we fall on the "transgender spectrum". My point, in simply terms, while I haven't experienced what you have, I can and do understand and emphasise with you. That is why I would never be dismissive or belittle anything that you have gone through. When I'm met with replies on this forum that criticise me, in my opinion, unfairly, it hurts. The replies I've had to my comments on this thread have upset me. And frustrated me, because I feel that people have misconstrued my intent on this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Externally, yes I can pick and choose. But internally I am not ever able to pick and choose my battles. I live my battles every single day. As have you. You've taken a very brave and positive step towards being the person who you actually are, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you for that. My battles are my own, and I deal with them the best I can. My point is, empathy can only ever go so far. What is more important to me is that I am happy. Just as what is more important to you than my happiness is your own happiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Only externally. Internally, I am able to avoid no situations. Just because I am wearing a suit one day, doesn't mean that on that day I am not transgendered. I am, and have been transgendered every single day of my life. Of course, people react to me as though I'm not transgendered when I wear a suit, and thus on such occasions I don't challenge their own perceptions of what are regarded to be societal norms, but internally the battle still rages on for me. Irrespective of what I wear. There is no such thing as a part-time CD. A person is either a CD or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I'm not like Isha. Isha is a person who I have the utmost respect for, and Isha has gone to lengths with her crossdressing that I know I will never attain at any point in my life. I simply do not have the courage to do what Isha has done. I wish I did have that courage. That I do not will be something that I regret to my dying day.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I can't say for certain that it is different, because I haven't experienced both where I live and where you live. My first post in this thread was simply to state how people where I live have reacted to Caitlyn, and it's because of this reaction (from people where I live) that has made me feel that Caitlyn's exposure isn't having the positive reaction that I hoped it would have. It may be different in other parts of the world, but I can't, nor ever will, speak for these other parts of the world. Simpy because I can not do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
You said it yourself - the dismissive SEEMING comments. They are not dismissive, even if they seem that way to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I didn't want to quibble about that. I just disagreed with your comments. The quibbles after that resulted from people taking objection to my disagreement of your comment. Lorileah set the ball rolling in that respect, with her own abrupt, flippant and unnecessary comment that I had put us "in a category compared to criminals". I hadn't. I had actually distinguished us from such a category.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I do have people in my life, so I can't relate to those people who don't. So no, I don't know what living that way is like. Nor would I want to. I am thankful for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I agree, we haven't committed a crime. You're right, it is a significant point. We are ostracised. And for no good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
You did pull rank. You said that you were offended that a part-time CD would "lecture you" about how easy it is to be transgender, when no one, certainly not me, never ever intended to state that we have it easy. Nonetheless, your post that I've replied to extensively here and your previous post had an underlying message that I, a part time CD, do not have it as bad as you, and that I, as a part time CD can not possibly have experienced the extents that you have experienced. In my last post, I agreed with this. I would be foolish and misguided not to. This all come about because I had the audacity to name some groups who society regards as lower than us. Your response in light of that was to cement your view. No one on this thread has questioned you for this. Plenty of people have questioned my comment however, despite them, when push comes to shove, actually agreeing with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
See my comment earlier in my post about the conflict that we all face in terms of our external presentation and internal thought process.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
You have. And I appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I, personally, have yet to see any.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I think we've had enough semantics ping-pong to satisfy a Chinese politburo after-hours entertainment show... :)
A lot of this all sounds like violent agreement if we step back a little and take deep, calming breaths...
:meditate:
Now isn't that better..?
Back to the OP please, and in a friendly way, or this thread will be done...
:yt:
Katey
Moderator
What Katey said:-)
I had to take a deep breath before even opening this thread. After seeing what Katey said, I decided to simply keep on with my deep breaths and not even read what has gone on here.
And yeap, I do feel better with my breathing.
I didn't mean to reactivate this thread, and I haven't read anything except Katey's post, but I suspect that there is a lot of good information involved and look forward to catching up on the "useful" parts.
The bottom line for me, is that we finally have a "celebrity" who has opened a lot of doors for discussion, and for that, we should all be thankful. Personally, I wish the "celebrity" had been Vladimir Putin or George Clooney, but hey, we have what we have, and this is a very good time to focus on the "positive", in a "lemons to lemonade" kind of way.
Jaye
P.S...I'm thinking about changing my signature line to:
Just because I dress like a girl, doesn't give me permission to act like a b..tch:-)
Well one thing is for sure, this certainly has our forum all abuzz!
I had no intention to offend especially Paula but the pedofile thing got me...hit home they say! I do take a stand n things and not on others....that said good conversation overall.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaT
Hamlet - William Shakespeare
That may be a stretch. Declining commentary about the matter is not the same thing as being supportive.Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaT
Rather, it would be a fatal PR move to speak out against it - and of course, they can't do anything to stop it anyway - so, why?
It is for sure they have had a difficult time "dealing with it". (Not the same as "accepting" it - which would indicate true acceptance.
Their silence may more be a matter of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".
I haven't posted in a while, But I have been reading this thread, and this got me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Ann Gilbert
ITS A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT, that each person has in this world is to IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.
You cannot push your labels onto Joanne. If joanne wants to identify in a way that doesn't make sense to you, you have no right to disagree. Its Joanne's right to Identify as Joanne sees fit. Putting another person into a box, only does so for your own comfort.
I never thought I would see the day someone who identifies as LGBT umbrella would use "the growing consensus and psychological community", to force a label onto someone who doesn't want it. That is absurd.
No, what is absurd is this continuing predilection within the community to cut finer and finer distinctions. Politics is a game of numbers and critical mass. At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.
Right now, there is a lot of B/S swirling about Bathroom Bills. As a group, we need to kill this stuff right now. And before those among us would say that it doesn't effect me, this hysteria that is going around is what led to this situation in Detroit.
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/06/...d-in-restroom/
The thing is, how would we feel if this person was a wife, sister, mother or daughter to one of us? This crap has got to STOP; NOW.
And yes, I have every right to disagree and point out things that serve No One.
KRISTIN BECK
Long listen but well worth it
Navy Seal transgender person
warrior princess navy seal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-PT2cZr4aA
I think it makes a difference to the health care community and health insurance. There needs to be a distinction between individuals who want surgery for cosmetic reasons (i.e. they want boobs with no other surgery and they do not experience significant distress and impairment over presenting male), vs. those who need the surgery because without it, they would experience significant distress and impairment over being, presenting, and living male ... which is the DSM definition of Gender Dysphoria. So should these two groups of people be identified the same way for the purpose of health insurance?Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
Also, spouses and partners need to know if their other half identifies as a man, woman, sometimes one and sometimes another, both, or neither. I agree that to the general populace, anyone who is not cis fits under the transgender umbrella (see my note below), but you do need more precise definitions when communicating to healthcare professionals, spouses/partners, and even among ourselves if you want others to gain an appreciation of who you are, exactly.
-----------------------------
Note about being classified under the "Transgender" Umbrella:
When my SO dresses and goes out, people don't stop to ask if my SO is a CDer, TG, TS, Drag Queen, Androgynous, or whether my SO has had her penis removed, or whether my SO lives like this all the time. lol. It is likely they classify my SO a number of different ways based on their personal knowledge, which likely is limited to what they read in the news. Since the media insists of calling transitioning TSs "Transgender" and transitioning TSs are more in the news than CDers, it is likely the people we run across believe my SO to have transitioned, like Jenner, which means they likely see her as they see Jenner: someone who used to be a male and who now lives as a female, vs. someone who was born female. Also, my SO is not about to hang a sign around her necks proclaiming to strangers that she is attracted to women and lives as a male most of the time, and so really, anyone who is in my SO's shoes just needs to allow strangers to come to the conclusions they will come to which is, the person they are looking at is "transgender", whatever their definition of that term is.
That said, if a CDer who identifies as a straight male is out to friends and family, he is perfectly free to tell these people he is not TG like Jenner, he does not plan on living full time and he is not asexual like Jenner (I heard her say this in a video), nor is he male-attracted, etc. Anyone can control the message they give about their identity to the people they know. It may take 10 words instead of one, but it's doable.
Likewise, a person who identifies as gender-fluid and who does not intend on fully transitioning is perfectly free to communicate this to family and friends, and to correct their impression of what "Transgender" means if these family and friends take it that it means eventual legal and physical transition and living full time.
This!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
I am a simple dudette, but years ago, someone explained to me about fulcum points, and this, right now, with Caitlyn, methinks is one of them.
Copy and pasting here:
The definition of a fulcrum is a pivot point around which a lever turns, or something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity. A pivot point around which a lever turns is an example of a fulcrum.
There have been untold many others who paid higher prices than Caitlyn, but that's not her fault!!! But she has now brought everything into more mainstream conversations than anything else that I've been aware of in my Journey.
I avoided this thread on purpose, and so, came in to it la te. But will try to leave it now, by quoting 48 again, and trusting that her words of wisdom will touch more than my heart.: At a time when we should be coming together, why are we continuing to separate ourselves? It makes NO SENSE.
There are a ton of other concerns that we should all be working toward, but we can't begin to work towards them unless we stop nit-picking among ourselves over definitions.
I know that they are important, but the old cartoon Pogo keeps coming to mind: "We've met the enemy, and he is us"...Or something like that.
Jaye
I just want to say that as a member of this community, it is understandable that you hope Caitlyn Jenner's will have a fundamental role in helping the cis-world to gain an understanding of transitioners or even people who are not transitioning but who are gender-fluid. I'm guessing there is a great deal more discussion and speculation about Caitlyn in forums such as this one, than there is in non-trans related forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by JayeLefaye
But, I think that to most people Caitlyn is far away, meaning they are aware there is a famous person who is transitioning, but I don't think they will be able to translate this to a deeper understanding, for example should their husbands, sons, or perhaps employees should follow Jenner's path.
The point is that NONE of this has anything to do with discussions HERE. What you're talking about is between a person and the medical professionals they are dealing with or between a person and their family. But, those discussions are not taking place HERE and they don't take place in public.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Yes, and my point it this largely exists because we lost the high ground. Instead of a straightforward and clear message, we have fractious and overly complicated B/S. We keep making this hard for ourselves for no good reason. And the problem is that once it is in the public domain, it is very hard to contradict.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
DeeAnn
Well what is also absurd is the assertion that those who not feel that the label of transgender describes them are now unable to feel or show compassion for those that do feel comfortable under the TG label.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
I am a man. I can still feel outrage towards injustices against women. I am straight. I can still believe that homosexuals should be treated equitably. I am of one race. I can still desire liberty for all races minority or majority. Just because some one doesn't want to identify with any TG label doesn't mean that they cannot care for the various TG causes. Besides if you just rely on those that identify as TG you would never have any politically significant numbers.
Telling people that transgender are everyone from Caitlyn Jenner to you average underdresser isn't going to clear up the confusion. Separating and clearly defining the differences between a TS, CD and the various groups will do more to clarify the public misunderstandings. But If we separate ourselves we lose that one clear voice. And if they only here one TG voice they think all TG are the same. I am sure a TS doesn't want me speaking as a TG to legislators that I don't need to use the a woman's restroom. I rather speak as just a human citizen and say denying a TS the use of the correct facility is unjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
No, I think it all comes down to the same reason our wives and girlfriends are so upset with us when they find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherdress
THEY FEEL THAT HE DECEIVED THEM, THAT THEY WERE FOOLED.
And nobody wants to be a fool. It makes them angry. And they turn that anger around towards the person that they feel betrayed them. They you add to the fact of why they are upset that he 'turned out to actually be a woman', and you have fury.
I was not pushing my label on Joanne. I was trying to point out that there is a good reason for her to see herself as falling under the T portion of LGBT.I specifically said she could not accept that definition. That is not pushing.This forum exists to exchange ideas, so it is my right to disagree with someone just as you are exercising your right to disagree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenie
As far as my reference to the psychological community, I think that is an important consideration because it is that community that influences lawmakes and judges. It was the erronius conclusions of psychologists in the past that led to the forced incarceration or hospitalization of anyone who identifed as LGBT. Now that psychology is getting it right we have been able to get the rights and privileges we now enjoy or can soon hope to enjoy.
Someones Gender and their expression of it, is for themselves. So its up to them what they decide to identify as. I don't think most people struggling with gender take the time to think about how they fit into the political machine. Not everyone goes into this with the idea of becoming an activist. Sometimes its just for survival. There are factions to separate people, because people create those factions for themselves. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone fits neatly into a mold, and not everyone who isn't cis-gender feels comfortable with the idea of being under the transgender umbrella. Some people just need to find something to make themselves feel safe. Thats why there are so many definitions. Whether someone is by definition a "tg" or not in a psychological context, I still purely believe that is for no one else to decide but the person themselves. Everyone else's opinions don't matter. Its each persons own right to decide to call themselves what they feel comfortable.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
You all are putting others in boxes. Which is so sad to see. We should all be in the position here to love one another and the differences we all bring. How can a group of ostracized individuals feel comfortable taking people and trying to talk them into boxes they don't feel comfortable in. I will re affirm that I believe this is very absurd. Which is one of the reasons I haven't been around as much. I would hope to experience a board that is a lot more open. But instead this place feels like a place where people talk about cross dressing in regards to whether or people are "trans enough".
I don't believe anyone here is constraining anyone's self definition of their gender or expression. The term "transgender" is extremely broad, covering everything from stone butches, to crossdressers, to gender queer, to trans persons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenie
In the end, I'd hope people could see the benefits of grouping with people who have some common problems, even if not all of the problems, nor anything else about them is precisely the same. That has been my argument and my point the entire time.
I didn't transition to become an activist. I became an activist because a gang of men attacked my friend, and the police could do nothing to protect her. Sometimes the fight comes to us, and since that is happening now, it just makes sense to me to band with others. I try to look beyond my own narrow interests, and include those who seem to have similar interests.
I'm not trying to force anyone to do this - I have no power to do that. But my hope is that people will help according to their talents and opportunities.
Well, it's between community members and the medical profession AND the people that members are married to and the others they have come out to, AND their friends in this forum. A wide variety of people simply cannot all use the same word to identify themselves, when each person attaches a different meaning to it. It's just all too confusing for the masses who hear the term. Granted, to the public everyone who crosses culturally defined categories of gender is "transgender", no matter how they identify and I don't think this is about to change. Most people do not intimately know others who cross gender norms and I honestly think the only way that non-community members will gain an appreciation of all the nuances in this community is to actually have personal experiences with the people who are in it. Unfortunately, the percentage of people who cross gender norms is small ... maybe that's why they make such a splash in the news.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
But in here, I think it best for people to be a bit more precise than "transgender" if they want others to know who they are and what they want, and instead of everyone saying that the same term defines their own particular brand of gender expression, they should give that up and say what they do, how they feel, how they present and how often. And if they are out to family and friends, they can explain what they do and how they wish to live to them as well.
What does this mean, and what is your solution. The conversation in here is going all over the place with pedophiles, criminals and what not.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
My hypothesis regarding high levels of intolerance from some straight males is that they react the strongest towards transgendered women who they perceive (at least subconsciously) as being attractive women after transition, and I'd include Caitlyn in this category. They're freaking out because they're feeling sexual attraction at some level for someone that they still perceive as being a man, and in Caitlyn's case, a very masculine man who was a role model of masculinity for millions of people.
This is precisely what I've been saying all along. It is the exact definition of the word. There is no adjustment due to frequency, privacy, motivations, if it is one way or if it is back and forth. Yet, people want to try to redefine the word. Silly...Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
This is very simple. As a community, we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
DeeAnn
Well, there are two different scenarios here and each should be handled differently:Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
1. The people you don't know: the people who serve you in restaurants and in stores and the millions of people that you don't run across but who are exposed to TV shows or articles about people who transition.
For the most part, these people are not interested in nuances, they don't really care what your motives are or how you live your life, and they do lump everyone together under "transgender". But, if they become interested, for example if they find out that someone in their lives experiences a desire to cross the culturally defined gender norms, then they are perfectly free to look up information online or read research articles in libraries that WILL explain the various motives and levels of crossing the gender norms.
2. The people you are connected to intimately: health care professionals, friends and family, your acquaintances that you are out to and may wish to explain things to, some of your coworkers, your friends in this forum and in support groups.
These people do want to know where exactly you fit within the spectrum. And depending on the depth of their connection to you, these are some of the questions they will want answered: Do you want to transition? Do you want to live full time? How often do you want to dress and do you want to go out? Do you want to come out to everyone you know or is going out to the next town over sufficient? How do you identify? Are you same-sex or opposite-sex attracted? Etc. So a "shorthand" for some of these answers, provided everyone has the same definitions of the words, might be, "transitioning TS", "non-transitioning TS", "part-time CDer", "full-time CDer", but even then these labels do not answer everything and more words are needed to answer all the questions these people are asking.
And that's basically how I have treated it in my conversations. When I came out to my affinity group at work recently, I just stated that I identify as transgender and I dress. In some 1/1 discussions with a few members earlier, I stated that plus pointed out that I don't do drag and I'm not looking to transition. They already knew that I also identify as bisexual and actually I reiterated that as the entre to the coming out discussion. Those 5 pieces of information basically tell the whole story. That I do go out dressed a few times a month or often, neck down, at home or underdress nearly 100% of the time is irrelevant to those 5 pieces of information. Yet, people want to include that peripheral information in their spin on the definitions. That's where it doesn't make sense.
Anyway, information is meted out as needed, but it should stop short of creating confusion. Unfortunately, as a community, we don't seem to realize this.
DeeAnn
No, the correct answer for most of the people you listed is "it's none of your business." Your wife, or partner, deserve all the answers you have, with the exception of the forward looking ones. No one knows the future with certainty. A medical doctor, the medical related questions. Everyone else? It really isn't their concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
This is my primary problem with the way trans people are treated - we aren't accorded basic human dignity. When I tell people I'm trans, I am asked questions they'd likely never DARE ask another person. Why do they ask me? It's really simple - I'm not a person to them. It's obvious - you can read it in their body language. It is NONE of my friend's or coworkers business who I sleep with, or what we do when we are together. (I get graphic questions about both of those things.) I don't owe anyone prognostications about my future. People have no right to ask me "do you think you'll regret it and switch back?"
I'm asked these things, and objectified as a collection of body parts and medical procedures, because most people simply don't see me as a fellow human being. There are exceptions, but for the most part my experience has been that as soon as I reveal that I'm trans, I cross over from being seen as a woman, to being seen as some sort of a thing - a guy who's done such bizarre things that he's no longer recognizable as a person, but is rather a thing.
People don't need to psychoanalyze me, to figure out which kind of a "thing" I am. They need to treat me as they would any other human being, and take me at my word that I am who I say I am. My motivations for doing whatever it is I've done are none of their business. I might share those things with some people, and not others, at my discretion.
I'm very sorry to see these same attitudes persist here, but they are prevalent in society as a whole, so it shouldn't surprise me.
What people do need to know about someone like me is perhaps that I have lived every day of my life in fear. For the first 50 years, it was fear of discovery, rejection, ostracism, and physical violence should it be discovered who I really was. Now that I am open about who I am, I experience all of those things - rejection and ostracism, and I know that physical violence may await me at any time, simply because of who I am.