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So, if I understand correctly, your friends believe that someone would elect to have hours and hours of non-trivial, largely irreversible surgery (10 hours on her face alone) for money? Sorry, that makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
You realize that NO ONE fits your model? Now what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
DeeAnn
the opening line of I Am Cait was this.....
"The world changes in direct proportion to the number of people willing to be honest about their lives."
How many of you are honest? How many are in the closet?
No matter WHO the role model for tg's is.....she is going to catch hate & shade from people, even other tg's
No Matter WHO one day becomes a role model for CD's....that person will catch hate and shade from people even other CD's
If you dont like the role models in front of you, become one yourself. xoxo
You're correct, it makes no sense ... to us. But the thing is, the average person isn't bothered to learn as deeply about it as we all are. They're not impacted by any of this! They have this iffy, sketchy idea of what "TG" might or might not mean (most people think it means gay men who want to become women ... except maybe those flashy people in Hollywood who do it for money and/or fame). When they read about parents who support their young TS kids by providing them with hormone blockers, many of them think the parents are off their rockers. They really have no clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
I've been asking various people I know what they think about Caitlyn, just to get my finger on the pulse of what people in the general population think, who are not associated in any way with members of this community like we are. It stands to reason that we know better, as do the people in our lives ... but even then, I bet there are people here who have acquaintances that think they're off their rockers too, if they know.
Because she has been so much in the news, using Caitlyn's story as a springboard for discussion has been an eye opener for me.
Stop making references to how difficult it is for us girls to find the right dress, shoes, makeup, etc. It gives the impression that she thinks most women obsess over this and also that her looks are a top priority, which is not in sync with her age. Most of us don't stress over stuff like that past the age of 30ish. Also, she might wear clothes that are not quite so tight, reveal leg, cleavage, shoulder, etc. She does have a great body, but have a look around at how other women in their 60s dress even if they have great bodies too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
She did handle the interview with Diane Sawyer well (but she wasn't flashily dressed during that interview), and I liked what she had to say during her award acceptance speech recently (minus the jokes about how hard it is to be a woman). If she could only tone down her image a bit, I think it would make a difference. A lot of people tend to base their opinions on what they see, more than the substance of someone's speech.
so if cd's can't use Caitlyn for purposes of garnering support ...they trash her.... and imply ts looks down on cds...that's whats sadQuote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
if cd's cant gain support for dressing, its ts's fault..thats bs..
and when ts call out cd for it, they get trashed as divisive....
I agree Reine that Caitlyn can do a better job and hopefully she will... she is just starting out...
and i'd add as others have she is a Hollywood person...the appropriate role models are not the average person
RD:
Notice that I did not mention transgender or transsexual in what I said. I'm speaking to the idea of having serious, largely irreversible surgeries of many hours duration For Money. ANY surgery is potentially life-threatening, so that takes it 'way beyond sewing up a bad cut. So, logic would say that surgery for money cannot be without considerable risk.
The underlying point here is that if this concept, as presented above, makes no sense (and it doesn't), then adding the terms transgender or transsexual is meaningless.
A suggestion: ask the question WITHOUT references to Ms. Jenner, transgender or transsexual.
DeeAnn
I watched i with the wife like I do I am Jazz, it is just ability for people who don't crossdress or Trans to understand it. 10 years ago the most we had was Rupal, I think the press is good.
I truly hope there is more to Caitlyn. I wish her the best in what ever she is trying to accomplish. No matter what the reason this is her journey and at least on the surface she has some support. That is all any of us in any mode of our journeys crave. I have read every post to this before commenting and with the good, bad and ugly, this has brought OUR community to the lime light. We are being talked about and not ignored good or bad.
Only Caitlyn knows why she decided to Come Out, and from what I've gathered in the little I've observed she has struggled with this for more years than some have been alive on here. Yes she's had the funds to do what ever procedure she thought was right for her but He earned that long before now.
We are watching her journey and IMO need to be respectful of that as we would hope others would be of ours. Some areas of our lifestyles seem to be getting more acceptance than others, great for them, our turn will either come or it won't. Please never hate on another member of our community for being a little more accepted. None of us have it easy and it is wasted energy.
Well, that's true. When she was Bruce, she was surrounded by a bevy of women who are Not representational of the average woman. lol. She has been surrounded by Hollywood glam on steroids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Hopefully she will recognize in time that she carries a much more serious message than the family carries in the Kardashian reality show, and she will tailor her presentation accordingly, as a spokesperson for people whose gender doesn't match their sex ... most of whom, may I add, go through emotional hell during the process of realization through to transition (like she has herself). And so the focus should be on more serious things and not so much on the frivolous, like looks and style. IMO.
OK .. an example that immediately comes to mind of other Hollywood personalities who have taken on more serious messages is Jane Fonda. She was a hot babe in her movies when she was young, but when engaged in activism she knew enough to tone it down in order to focus on her message. This is not an endorsement of her position or her politics, just a comment on her presentation while she was addressing political issues.
Jane Fonda as a hot babe
Jane Fonda as an activist
This is the first time in her life that Caitlyn has been free to be herself so she should be allowed to dress as she wishes. Everybody should be free to dress as they wish. Criticising her because you do not like her clothes is very sad. By the way are you suggesting she should wear an helmet like Jane Fonda. Based on some of the comments here it might be a good idea.
Caitlyn does not owe anyone anything. She is transitioning and is entitled to do that however she wants. Yes she is famous, in the US at least, but I think she is using her fame in a positive manner.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Emma. Her clothes are very nice. The issue is having an awareness of how she is seen outside the TG community, if she wants people to take her seriously. You say she doesn't owe anyone anything. You're right. But, Caitlyn has said that she has an important message to carry. She will carry it better if she tones down her presentation.
The general public does not make the many distinctions that we do between the various parts of our spectrum. They lump us all together. I do not believe that expecting the mainstream public to learn the nuances of the TG spectrum is any more reasonable than expecting them to learn all the different modes of gay experience. As long as the core messages of respect and tolerance for us are transmitted it will be a big win for all of us.
One thing is for certain, unless they just crawled out of a cave no adult will ever again be able to say that they don't know of a TG person..
You don't know she isn't. For all you know she's eating ice cream out of the box in her cotton night gown reading thisQuote:
Originally Posted by steftoday
That's the point. NO ONE fits the model. Soccer mom clothes...glam clothes...jeans and a T-shirt, there is always someone here who will say it isn't what we should wear. It doesn't fit the mold. Women are mad because she made a joke about how hard it is to choose an outfit (I suspect that anyone on an awards show really has that issue, they just don't say it). The TSs are are mad because she has money and spends it on things like plastic surgery. The CDs are mad because she is a TS. CBS is mad because she's on E network. Russia is mad because they didn't get the gold medal in 1976. What do people want?Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
Whatever it is, evidently Caitlyn doesn't have it. Funny thing is that people ARE talking about her. I have been here many years and that was an underlying subject the whole time. How do I tell my wife, my kids, my mother, my boss, my dog. Now you have a point of reference. You have an opening and people here want her to disappear. is she good for the community? I don't know yet. Let's see in a year. But, in the meantime, it has been something that people can talk to ME about so I can get MY message out too. So I can prove that I am a good person and not someone to be feared or avoided.
Other than never being a Drag Queen, I have lived the spectrum here. Most of us have. Sexual fetish, in the closet, going out at night, driving partially dressed or fully dressed in the dark, hiding clothes, buying clothes and throwing them away, going out in public and being scared out of my mind, going out in public and finding out the world didn't end, dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends, being who I am. It isn't a mountain with a peak, it is a railroad with twists and turns and stations that you can get off at or keep going on. If anyone here thinks for a moment they are better, higher, more evolved as a TG, just remember, pedestals are high and lonely and when you fall off, the higher you think you are the more pieces you will shatter into.
Is she good? Is she not? Who knows, she IS.
Last note: quit the sniping at each other. You can make your point without throwing sand at others in this box. Play nice.
Maybe I've just been missing it, but when and how does this happen here? I've read quite a lot of discussions here, and while I can think of some where people were a bit blunt (but not really unreasonable), but none where I would say CDs were really looked down upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by docrobbysherry
So, I completely agree with this. Honestly, during the first 1.5 minutes of her award acceptance speech I was rolling my eyes and groaning, "not again". Then the good part hit and the water works started. I understand her (and others') desire to be "validated" in a typically female fashion, but I hated that her first public "reveal" was glamour shots with a bit of pin-up thrown in. That said, I also feel really, really bad for her. Having watched the first episode of "I Am Cait" and gotten a better look at the extent of the procedures she pursued on her face, I have to believe that she had (and probably is still dealing with) some fairly severe body image issues. I have no idea if that's true or not, but I honestly can't even begin to imagine the pressures involved in openly transitioning while already a celebrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
One thing I find interesting is that, for all the significant work she had done on her face, she has not pursued any noticeable changes to her voice as far as I can tell.
Oh, I realize this, Lorileah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Probably not a cotton nightgown, though. I think she's probably more a silk or satin type. ;-)
"Only Caitlyn knows why she decided to Come Out,"
Because she needed to be seen by the public as female and needs that identity reflected back to her.
"One thing I find interesting is that, for all the significant work she had done on her face, she has not pursued any noticeable changes to her voice as far as I can tell."
How do you know she isn't working on it. Voice box surgery raises the base pitch, but doesn't address the resonance, breathing, inflection and prosody of female speech. That is only attained by practice and use. I'm finding that part to be very difficult. I've been practicing for over 2 years. I hardly get misgendered on the phone anymore, but not always. Talking to strangers is much easier than talking to friends, family in the office or to long time clients. I tend to revert back to familiar voice and patterns during those encounters. Talk to many transitioners and transitioned individuals. You'll find that voice is the hardest part of this journey.
well gurlies, if she has got 10% of the rest of the world talking about her about 10% as much as happens on here, its a RESULT.
Well, personally, as a crossdresser I'm not mad about anything, with the possible exception of the B/S that sometimes appears in print here and is passed off as logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
There is an old axiom about public relations, such that the problem isn't when people talk about you. The problem is when people STOP talking about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
But, you have to ask the question is having a Lightning Rod better than not having a Lightning Rod? I think Having is better than Not Having.
Anyway, by your list I guess I am atypical:
Drag Queen: no
Sexual fetish: somewhat
In the closet: partly
Going out at night: no
Driving partially dressed: no
Fully dressed in the dark: no
Hiding clothes: no
Buying clothes: yes
Throwing them away: no
Going out in public and being scared out of my mind: initially
Going out in public and finding out the world didn't end: yes
Dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends: + some evenings
Being who I am: trying to
The point is that we all got here by MANY different roads and at MANY different Rates and at MANY different times and with MANY different purposes. The problem is that rather than appreciating and supporting each others struggles, many feel the need to separate and distance themsleves and devalue others. There is No Way that can be useful, yet we continue to do it. That's what I find depressing.
All this carping about how Ms. Jenner dresses is a complete waste of bandwidth. I guess some won't be happy unless she is wearing a burlap bag with a rope belt.
You know, how's this: Has anyone checked if there is a way to get fan mail to Ms. Jenner? It would seem to make more sense to register your displeasure in some way like that where there is at least a chance that she might see it rather than here which is very doubtful.
DeeAnn
My friend Christine (Daniels, also a rather public transition at the time) took some of the same criticism in seemingly being a little too focused on what many viewed as the superficial aspects of being a woman. Thing is, she was going through an adolescence of sorts as the female which she wasn't able to express when she was a chronological teenager. These things bled into her blog, just as Caitlyn's bleed into her public statements. In Christine's case, these things along with the detransition part of her story led to much criticism (as in hindsight) that suggested she was "just a CD'er" all along which was absolute rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Caitlyn is probably doing something very similar but instead of making all of the wrong fashion choices, she is simply overcooking the right choices a bit (by virtue of a behind-the-scenes stylist, I suspect) which is leading to criticism.
I wouldn't be surprised if things settle down as time goes by. Admittedly, I haven't seen episode one of I Am Cait yet, but of the images I have seen of her since the VF cover, I can recall only one utterly casual (yet unmistakenly feminine and well-put-together) moment where she is standing arm and arm with her friends, backs to the camera. Otherwise, her signature style seems to be DVF dresses and meticulous attention to detail in her overall look.
Heck, because she is in the public eye, her look may never settle down significantly, and that is her choice. Does she have to present in jeans & Birkenstocks in order to be seen with respect by the community which she is so much a part of and has so much to offer to?
S J:
Point of clarification:
Do the jeans have to have rips and the Birkenstocks have to start delaminating?
Thanks!
DeeAnn
Ha ha ha!!! Those things only enhance street-cred :).
Ah! Thanks for the clarification! Judging from the discussion here, we MUST get it right!
Have an Excellent Day,
DeeAnn
I guess I'm late to the game, but no, I don't think Caitlyn Jenner's transition has any effect on the public perception of crossdressers.
I think the public is more understanding and tolerant of people who transition than of people who crossdress part time. And a large part of the problem is that many (most? I dunno) part-time crossdressers are closeted and furtive.
If you yourself keep your crossdressing a secret, go to great lengths to avoid having your "stash" found, even hide it from your spouse... doesn't it seem like you yourself think there's something wrong with it? It's hypocritical for a closeted crossdresser to expect public acceptance of something something the crossdresser him or herself treats as a shameful secret.
Well, I did say "as far as I can tell". :) I don't know that she isn't working on it, but I also know that (despite how it looks on TV) her transition has actually been going on for a long time. Given the authority with which she speaks in public, I wonder if she's made a choice specifically not to change her voice.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan37
Also, yes - I know about the work involved. I've been working on my voice for a while now as part of my transition. I'm not considering voice box surgery because I find the risks to my voice quality unacceptable, but vocal training has been working fairly well for me so far.
:confused: I didn't change my voice. My voice is an integral part of my new career. So this doesn't make sense to me. Faking a lilt or going into a head tone, to me, is fake. I am still awaiting the answer about how she somehow is stealing something from the "T" community. With all the negative press we have had over the years (bad movies, bad movies that were supposed to be funny, bad news articles about bad people who used a "T" front to do bad things) how is this somehow worse? Most of the feedback I have had from the world is positive...to my face anyway. Who knows what they say when they go home. But as I said, now people have a reference point. A broad one but still something they can compare to that isn't a clown, murderer, pervert.
Positive "T" role models are hard to find. One person did point out two. It is great we have scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians (did anyone see the article about Kristen Beck?), musicians, mothers/fathers, every walk of life. But they haven't made the impact Jenner has. So many here supported Eddie Izzard for dressing in public. How was HE (yes he...because he never said he was anything else) somehow a better model? And next question is"where is he now"? If he was a positive model are the effects still in force? The movie Kinky Boots vs the movie Mrs Doubtfire vs the movie TransAmerica vs the movie Crying game? Which ones showed the community (no matter where you are on the spectrum) in a positive light?
So the OP was,
Quote:
Originally Posted by deebra
Oh, I don't think the rest of the world is even half as interested as are the people in CD/TG forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by pamela7
Yes, I know all that, as does everyone else who knows CDs/TGs, but my point was, her message is not addressed to us (or to the people we know who support us). Her message is addressed to the hordes of non-understanding, non-supportive people who discriminate against TSs. Lathering on the glam in a world where a lot of people struggle economically is not a good way to make the argument that people transition for identity and emotional reasons, and not because they want to be sexy hot babes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara Jessica
I'm not suggesting she should look like a bag lady, just saying that it wouldn't hurt to stop making comments on how hard it is for a woman to look good and tone down her appearance a bit. She wants to stop giving the impression that she thinks the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy. :p
... ok ... looking sexy might be important to a young woman looking for a mate and wanting to start a family, but Caitlyn is 65 years old for goodness sake, plus she herself has said she is asexual.
OK, I'm a year older than Ms. Jenner and there are others here who are older than me. I guess our time is already over and we just don't know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Further, I guess if you're 65 or over and you transition, your uniform should be Church Lady in a Size Ugly...
DeeAnn
Funny - on the first part you'd think CJ would be winning at least a little GG support on empathising with the effort that goes into looking the best you can... :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
On the second part, it's hardly CJ's fault that practically the entire male world thinks that the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy...? And because of that predisposition, a goodly proportion of the female world goes along with it too... :tongueout:
I'm not saying it's morally right - but it is the way the real world works... In any case, I think she'll tone it down eventually - but this is the big outing splash... I think before people make judgments they should try to put themselves in her position, with her background, environment and baggage, and then ask the question:
So how would I do this any differently if that were me...?
But that's tough to answer for all of us non-celebs because we really can't grasp the unreality of the unreal world she lives and moves in...
If she's still news beyond a Christmas special, I'll be pleasantly surprised...
Katey x
PS: And much better behaviour ladies - proud of you! :D
I fall into the same group and I like looking as good as I am able. Where does looking good leave off and looking sexy begin? I'm a tall, reasonably slim person, so I love tall slinky maxidresses. They may not be strictly age-appropriate, but I think I pull them off well. Sexy? Well, that is in the eye of the beholder.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Let's also consider Jenner's environment. She's been around the Kardashian clan for years and has acquired personal assistants for clothing, hair, and makeup. Clothing designers are filling her closets. What are these assistants going to suggest? "We have these new Dior dresses, but today we're going to dress you like an aging librarian?" Of course not! They are going to make her look like what she is, a good looking celebrity.
Reine, no matter who her target audience is (I believe it is all of us, from the Muggles who no not of what TG is all about to those who are well-entrenched in our community...yes, CD's too), it doesn't take away from Caitlyn's personal renaissance that is happening before our eyes, for better or for worse. I take no issue in how she presents herself. The VF cover was a splash and I wouldn't have expected her to look like Martha Stewart (not that there is anything wrong with looking like Martha Stewart, it's just that a VF debut is a hard place to imagine presenting as an iconic crafty gal presenting in crafty mode). And in keeping with the K clan and expectations of being part of a proverbial jet-set, not to mention what might be her mentality in wanting to look as trendy and well-put-together as possible, I don't expect things to change soon. She missed what many might call her prime "sexy" years, I cannot fault her for carrying that torch now, even if only for a while.
65 years of repression, I'm surprised she'd even be seen wearing capri's (but I'm glad she did!!!).
Did you bother to read and absorb the rest of my post? I am by no means suggesting that Caitlyn should be a Church Lady in Size Ugly. :straightface:Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
It's got nothing to do with morals, Katey. And yes, when I go out, I too wash my hair, wear clean clothes that fit well and that I think are becoming, put on earrings, use a bit of foundation and blush to even out my tone and look as healthy as I can. We absolutely shouldn't walk around as if we do not take pride in our appearance. But, there's a difference between the way that Kaitlyn has so far chosen to present, and how I describe it in my first sentence. Please tell me that you see this. lol. As to men being attracted to sexy women, yes of course they are. This is what propagates our species and it is wired into all of us. But, there is an age for everything, and not too many 65 year olds are out looking for mates in order to contribute to the propagation of the species. lol. If Kaitlyn was in her 30s, I'd tell her to go for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
... and Eryn ... I know that CJ has been around the glam, I mentioned this in an earlier post. But, she herself has said she has an important message to deliver. And when people want to deliver important messages, they need to be aware of effective ways to do so, and they want to be believable. They don't want to put a lot of noise in the way that will distract the listeners. And in CJ's case, the "noise" is the obvious focus on her looks and appearance to the "I specifically want to look sexy in the type of clothes that appeal particularly to men" end of the spectrum, which opens the way for criticism toward her and potentially toward other TSs too. Do we really want people to think that the fundamental motive for MtF transition is to be hot and sexy?
Why is this so hard to understand for so many people here? +? +? +?
I understand what you are saying Reine but I think that it is understandable that she wants to try and mimic the 'Hollywood' glamour around her. I think she will settle down and dress more conservatively when she gets it out of her system.
Of course she does not have to. She is free to dress as she wishes.
The point about the way she dresses not being appropriate for delivering an important message is interesting. She is the message in a sense.
The message is that she is a woman so obviously how she looks and dresses is part of the message. If she did not look good she would become the object of even more derision. It would make her an easier target. The fact that she looks convincing will support her argument that she is a woman in the minds of a lot of people. To go to the extreme if she presented as a male and claimed she was a woman the general public would not take it seriously. I am not saying this is right but it is the way the world is. Ask anyone who does not pass how difficult life can be.
I stress again that I know this is not the way it should be but we live in a culture where appearance is very important. It may be wrong but it is the world we all live in and as a media celebrity she is living in an heightened version of it.
It's sarcasm, child, sarcasm. Can you read and absorb humor?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
The thing is, I think what you're asking is unrealistic. This person is an international celebrity and is on national TV and speaks before august bodies. You sound like you want her to dress like she's going to the mall. It's NOT going to happen. Personally I hope that she continues to look as well as she has. I see no point in trying to emulate a semi-ragamuffin just to keep the jaws from flapping in the trans community. And the thing is, I bet if she would look like you want, the other part of the trans community will start talking about how bad she looks.
Be aware that Ms. Jenner is from CelebrityLand, not SoccerMomVille.
DeeAnn
i have always believed that we win one person at a time... we have to let our humanity and good nature shine thru....we have to thrive and demonstrate it to loved ones and acquaintances so that when they are in that conversation about trannies or queens they are more willing to stand up and say we are all ok...
Having celebrities bring up the conversation is great for us because those of us that are out there talking can shine, we can thrive, we can turn people one by one...that is all going to happen in soccermom ville....
in fact in person we can easily point out that Caitlyn is not joan sixpack and allow ourselves to be the object of conversation, and move the ball forward
There is nothing Caitlyn can do except be herself...This is her, warts and all. Just like the rest of us...
i have seen a couple of pictures and moments with Caitlyn where i thought "ewwwww....way too much..." but ive seen pictures of lots of stars and thought the same thing....anty women can be sub
'"
Yes! Exactly!!! She is the message and people will either have their existing attitudes about the motives for transition either confirmed or dispelled based on her appearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
OK ... I think I'm beginning to understand now. Somehow, you and perhaps others in this thread who defend her presentation believe that to look good must equal looking hot and sexy? And so a woman doesn't look good unless she wears the obvious trappings of sexiness (big boobs, low cut tops, tight clothes, showing leg or shoulder, big hair, elaborate eye makeup, etc)?Quote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
This is not the way that non-CDs see it, and what I am saying is that for people who have a hard time understanding that transitioning is not because TSs are gay and want to attract men, CJ's appearance thus far, combined with all her comments about how tough it is for a woman to "look good", are giving the wrong impression. Please believe me when I say that we have a lot more in our lives than concerns about appearing sexy. lol
Have you asked random people out there what they think of Caitlyn? I have and the answers were eye-opening. I admire CJ's efforts to communicate her message to the world but I hope she does tone it down eventually.
I think there's a slight amount of hypocrisy regarding trans women. If a genetic woman happens to like glamorous clothes, lots of makeup, etc. people will think it's just her style, and that perhaps she's a little shallow, but not that she's a bad representative for women. Trans women tend to face much more criticism if they do that, I think because they're perceived as caricaturing what it is to be a woman.
For myself, I like to look good and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It is tiresome to hear people who obsess over clothes and go on about how hard it is to be a woman because you take so long to get ready, etc. But at least for me, it's no worse to hear that from Caitlyn Jenner than it would be from any other woman. It's her choice and her style and if it makes her happy, then fine.
You're right, the first impression will be that this GG is shallow. Look around at all the women you pass by every day, all the women you work with. Based on their appearance, what you think is the focus of their lives?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
No, I think that TSs who give the impression they focus on their looks, will also be viewed upon as transitioning for shallow reasons. The TSs that I know don't present like Caitlyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
It is more complicated I think. Most people still do not view us as real women no matter what we do and they judge us from that perceptive - how good are we at trying to be women. Not from the perspective that we are women. There are interesting standards for us. Like I have been accused of not trying hard enough to look better - I should dress nicer and wear more makeup. I have also been scolded for wearing high black boots with heals in the winter - omg now I am trying to be a drag queen! I've gone to far.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I was in a room with a bunch of cis women one time and another TS woman. The other TS woman made a comment about how us sisters need to stick together- The eyes rolled! How dare we think what it means to really be one of them and what it means to be a sister? I heard some comments later about what some of those women thought about what she said.
I notice a lot of my cis female friends will say things like "hey girl" or "you go girl" and similar comments to me, but to each other I rarely hear them saying the same things. Why?????? If I start making such comments often to people I have the feeling I would be viewed as trying harder to pretend I was a girl. Probably laying it on to much with my act.
In most cases, of course, their focus is not their looks nor on looking sexy. However, I have known and worked with women (not many, but a few) who really did dress glamorously most of the time and spend a lot of time on their looks. In some cases, they were shallow but in other cases, they were ordinary women who happened to enjoy that sort of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I somehow doubt those TSs care. And we also shouldn't care; it's not really our business.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
TS start with a major disadvantage to GGs. They have male faces and bodies. You probably look good without a huge amount of effort. I do not. I have to try hard to pass. By the way why do you assume that looking good means trying to be sexy, having big boobs etc. You can look good without doing that.Quote:
OK ... I think I'm beginning to understand now. Somehow, you and perhaps others in this thread who defend her presentation believe that to look good must equal looking hot and sexy? And so a woman doesn't look good unless she wears the obvious trappings of sexiness (big boobs, low cut tops, tight clothes, showing leg or shoulder, big hair, elaborate eye makeup, etc)?
I have not seen many pictures of Caitlyn. Obviously the Vanity Fare cover was sexy but she was only doing what countless celebrities have done before. The other pictures have not been anything like that. However she dresses she is getting the message across and how she dresses is her business not yours. I think you are being very bitchy.
I work with a lot of women. Most of them wear more make up and all are far more 'glamorous' than me. But they are still taken seriously. They do not dress to be sexy they dress they way they want.
The focus of most TS lives is not looking sexy. We are too busy transitioning and trying to hold things together. The last thing I want to do is attract attention when I am out by looking 'sexy'. I must admit I am surprised by your comments. You obviously have some issues with the way other women dress. Why do you care? It is none of your business.
IMO, that's just human nature at work .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
If there are a few thousand on any given thing you have a much broader idea of whet it is even it there are some variances in it .
At the other end..... if there is only a small hand full of anything, you focus on the differences and there is much less to compare it to.
Al this makes it of the utmost importance that Cait act with maturity, etc, being ever mindful that the she is a role models and became someone the general public will judge other TS/TG and even CDs by.
She made herself a role model and a person to be judged as a TS/TG person so, she must play the part!
To everyone, my 21 year-old son just left. We had lunch. He was checking his fb page and showed me a pic of Caitlyn. It was a picture of Bruce on the Wheaties box, side by side with a pic of Caitlyn (not the most flattering pic) on a box of Froot Loops. My son showed it to me because he thought it was funny.
This is a boy that I raised to be open-minded and accepting. And he generally is ... he is friends with everyone no matter their sexual orientation, we had had a conversation when Leelah Alcorn died and he felt that Leelah's parents should have helped her to transition. So we started a conversation about Caitlyn and I told him that CJ shouldn't be laughed at ... she wants to bring the plight of TSs to the public eye, she wants people to know there are individuals who suffer a great deal because large chunks of people in our society discriminate against TSs and transition. My son then told me he cannot take CJ seriously because of his (my son used "his") association with the K-clan and also if CJ wanted to help, "he" wouldn't have a reality show making lots of money off of it like Keeping Up With the Kardashians.
I'm sharing this with all of you so you will know how a lot of people really think. I do not think my son's opinions are isolated and most other people I spoke to had similar attitudes. This is not discrimination against TSs. This is discriminating against Caitlyn's current image.
So my point all along this forum discussion has been, if Caitlyn wants to reach the people who do discriminate against TSs (the people who do not understand the motives for transition), then she needs do distance herself from the K-clan, which necessarily means, stop dressing or presenting like them. The more she looks like she belongs in the K-camp, the harder it will be for people to take her seriously. If Caitlyn wants to reach young TSs and be a role model for them, she is not showing them the right way to dress if these TSs want to be taken seriously as well. I do want to add that she is being a positive role model for coming out to begin with but even so, CJ has so many advantages (money, fame, and the Hollywood bubble) that average young TSs do not have, that it is difficult to place her on the same page as them.
But, if people in this forum do not want to see this, that's OK.
I do. I see my TS friends as women. But, because of my exposure to my SO, the members of the support group that I know, this forum, etc, I understand more than a person who is not connected to this community.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
I agree with you that TSs are examined under a harsh light. You mention criticism over wearing high boots, or not enough makeup. Everyone will have a different standard according to their personal taste. But, GGs have opinions about other GGs all the time too (even if they keep their opinions to themselves). For example, I have a friend who only wears blacks and grays. I love her dearly, but the colors she chooses make her look wan and tired, older than her years. If I should see a woman my age with mini skirts, a deep décolleté and lots of smokey eye makeup, of course I won't say anything to her but I will think that she is trying way too hard to look young and she would do herself a favor if she hid the cellulose, hid the sun damage on her chest, and toned down the makeup.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
This is why I do not tell my TS friends, "you go girl", "you look grrrrreat", or "OMG you look better or have nicer legs than me". You are correct Arbon, we don't say these things to other GGs, and so singling out TSs or CDs to say them to is patronizing. I think the GGs who say this really mean, "I admire you for what you are doing". I do admire some things that people (both men and women) either wear or use in their homes and I compliment them on these things, but to tell a friend, "you go girl" is a bit much.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
That was exactly my point!! LOL. You said that CJ dresses the way she does to look good, and so I asked you if you thought it was necessary to wear these things if we want to look good. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
i agree with a lot of what you are saying Reine...i think there is very little to be done about it, and i don't think the anecdote about your son translates to any big meta trend.
reaching people is hard...transsexuality is very difficult to understand....what ts people want is hard to get... many of us would prefer more dress down casual days for caitlyn...
nobody can be all things to all people.... caitlyn can't have it every way...her platform IS the k-clan... its true that its hard to take people in that circle seriously sometimes but thats the bargain...perhaps caitlyn can pull away...the ratings were so so, which means this can likely fade anyway.
i have two daughters ..they have their buddies and i see a lot of them...
in their circle they don't laugh at us...they are anti racist, anti phobic...etc...they and their friends are very serious about it...they stop being friends over this stuff
rightly or wrongly they would be in your son's face if he made that joke to them!!!! or joked about race or gender or anything that hurt others
however
..i don't think either your son or my kids represent anything but themselves and perhaps their friends...
There are people on this forum who tell us that if we go to a mall wearing a dress that real women don't do that. I find it sad that looking nice is against the rules for some of us. CJ can wear whatever she wants to. Of course, it will also help sell her television programme. No matter how much of a public figure she is, she is still a private citizen. She doesn't owe anybody anything and if anybody thinks she's doing it wrong then they can become the next figurehead and show us the light.
That is exactly the type of thing I was/am afraid of given the media circus that surrounds Cait with her full approval and encouragement .Quote:
To everyone, my 21 year-old son just left. We had lunch. He was checking his fb page and showed me a pic of Caitlyn. It was a picture of Bruce on the Wheaties box, side by side with a pic of Caitlyn (not the most flattering pic) on a box of Froot Loops. My son showed it to me because he thought it was funny.................
I know and I agree. CJ will need time to learn and then she will adjust her presentation accordingly. But, I hope that people in the forum will understand why I am saying that it will be better all around when she does. I want people to get past how she presents and to pay attention to what she has to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
But that's just it, my son does not tell racial or gender jokes. He simply doesn't take CJ seriously because of the glam, the reality shows, and the association with the Kardashians, whom he has no respect for. And the eye-opener for me was, most people I spoke to (several friends and acquaintances, a few people at work, a hairdresser) expressed similar sentiments as my son. I didn't take it they were discriminating against TSs particularly ... it was directed toward CJ's presentation choices and her decision to continue with reality shows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
I think you're going way off piste now, Reine... It's bad enough when we have our own community fashion police but I'm staggered you feel you're in an authoritative position to say this:
"Better all round" for whom? You're just completely missing the context of her existence - as Kaitlyn has already said. the Kardashian's are her platform and family and her life is Hollywood. Of course 65-year old Mrs Jorgensen from Fargo doesn't look like CJ when she goes to buy chicken wire from the hardware store in her pickup truck (that's a deliberately exaggerated stereotype, btw - but it's in good company!) - CJ's life was, is, and will likely remain in, Hollywood... So when you said this earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
You make it sound like anyone who wants to be part of 'Celebrity' life has a choice...:confused: Like these ladies of Hollywood around CJ's age (or older):Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
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Are they glam and sexy? Are they trying to attract a mate? Trying too hard to look young? :Pfft:
Yeah - they don't look quite like this when they're shopping Rodeo Drive - but they look like this at awards ceremonies, and a heck of a lot different to Mrs Jorgensen when they are shopping because it is part of who they are. And yes, they'll tone down the image when they're giving a serious message for charity, good causes, whatever - but they'll still be glamorous and God bless them for being prepared to take glamour into older age rather than lapsing into utilitarianism non-fashions. :hmph:
Part of being taken seriously as celeb IS about how you present, how you look, and fitting with the media's expectations of that. I'm sure she will change over time, but that will take quite a while because I think she's trying to achieve acceptance on her terms and those that best fit with her environment - I expect it will take years before she's accepted for herself - something that most other TS's share, I imagine...
Not an 'ordinary' TS or CD by any means - but then she never could be...
For all of those who have issues with CJ's presentation - Get over it. Better or worse, it's Hollywood.
Katey x
Well, that's your son's problem, I think, not CJ's. Paparazzi culture in general is disgusting, so anyone famous who transitions is in a no-win situation, IMO. And I think CJ is handling it quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I would like to echo, amplify, Diane's point just above. Each of us, not just Reine's son, need to challenge ourselves to put ourselves into the other's world when we make our inevitable judgments about them. Even the attempt to make that transposition, in the case of Caitlyn, is futile for most of us. We, for the most part, cannot even begin to understand all that we would need to to make a wise judgement.
Caitlyn has her own needs. Her first duties are to herself, followed closely with those to her family. Anything she is willing and able to do for us within those parameters is icing on the cake. Be gracious and say "Thank you."
Stephanie
I see a bigger theme in Reine's critiques of CJ. It's the problem of stereotypes. Like it or not people will make sweeping generalizations based on a few examples, especially when those examples are OTT and highlighted by mass media. People do this in part out of intellectual laziness, but mostly because they just don't have a deep interest in things outside their normal existence. Reine has clearly stated her concern that the serious message CJ is trying to convey is being obscured by her overly glamorous presentation and that her presentation and behaviors play to stereotypes about women that Reine feels are unhelpful. These are important concerns and I, for one, support her for bringing them up.
I do think, though, that most of the flack CJ, is getting from folks outside the TG community is guilt by association with the Kardashians. I doubt few of them actually bothered to watch the first episode of her show. (For the record I haven't yet either. Cut the cable cord years ago.) They are just not paying close enough attention to even hear the message she's trying to tell. From that perspective I don't think it would make a big difference if she did tone down her appearance. Given that the practical effect would be negligible, I think she should dress in whatever way makes her feel good about herself. I suspect she has been in deep pink fog since transitioning, something exasperated by the VF shoot, TV show and the ESPYs. It's going to take her time to find her way out.
Bridget
Maybe my last sentence above was poorly written? It means that I hope the people who participate in this thread and who do not believe I should have the opinion that it would be best if CJ toned it down, will understand my motives for saying what I say. I developed this opinion because I have spoken to a number of people who have no association with the TG community or CDs/TGs/TSs, and I was surprised at their negative reactions to Caitlyn, to the point where they are not listening to what she has to say. And it is my wish that these people and all others who feel the same way might be able to see Caitlyn for who she is, which is a woman who struggled to be her authentic self and not some person who is doing this for money or for other more shallow reasons, so they can hear the message that CJ delivers and believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
Katey ... the difference between the pics of the stars you show and CJ is, these stars are not telling the world "I am a woman who, due to society's negative attitudes about TSs and transition, lived unhappily in a male body all my life and now finally at age 65 I can be my authentic self". They are GGs who have always been GGs and who went to a gala. If they were coming out for the first time, I bet they would carefully choose their presentation at least for the first few months.
----
If anyone here finds this offensive or feels that I am being a fashion police or that I am somehow against the community, then sorry but I don't know what else to say. :p. Honestly, I'm getting the impression that many of you are putting Caitlyn on a pedestal to the point where you want to be in denial about how she is being received by average people.
----
Finally, last night I watched "I am Cait" and saw that Caitlyn herself is aware of what I am saying. When her mother was coming over to meet her, Caitlyn told her assistant to pick out an outfit that is (I cannot remember the exact words) not too femmy. And at the end of the show when Caitlyn went to meet the family and friends of a young 14 yr-old TS who had killed herself, she wore a simple black turtleneck top with a pair of black pants. The focus was not on boob, leg, etc.
... Dianne S, maybe you skimmed by some of what I posted, but it is not just my son (a person who does not discriminate against TSs) who thought the pic on fb captured Caitlyn's reality. Tons of other people do too, which proves that Caitlyn's message is NOT getting across to the muggles. Bruce was a pro at motivational speaking and a part of this job is knowing the best way to present in order to deliver a specific message. I've been hoping that Caitlyn will move beyond her need to present a certain way and tone it down a bit, and it looks as though on the show I saw last night, she is beginning to.