So, if I understand correctly, your friends believe that someone would elect to have hours and hours of non-trivial, largely irreversible surgery (10 hours on her face alone) for money? Sorry, that makes no sense.Originally Posted by ReineD
You realize that NO ONE fits your model? Now what?
DeeAnn
the opening line of I Am Cait was this.....
"The world changes in direct proportion to the number of people willing to be honest about their lives."
How many of you are honest? How many are in the closet?
No matter WHO the role model for tg's is.....she is going to catch hate & shade from people, even other tg's
No Matter WHO one day becomes a role model for CD's....that person will catch hate and shade from people even other CD's
If you dont like the role models in front of you, become one yourself. xoxo
You're correct, it makes no sense ... to us. But the thing is, the average person isn't bothered to learn as deeply about it as we all are. They're not impacted by any of this! They have this iffy, sketchy idea of what "TG" might or might not mean (most people think it means gay men who want to become women ... except maybe those flashy people in Hollywood who do it for money and/or fame). When they read about parents who support their young TS kids by providing them with hormone blockers, many of them think the parents are off their rockers. They really have no clue.
I've been asking various people I know what they think about Caitlyn, just to get my finger on the pulse of what people in the general population think, who are not associated in any way with members of this community like we are. It stands to reason that we know better, as do the people in our lives ... but even then, I bet there are people here who have acquaintances that think they're off their rockers too, if they know.
Because she has been so much in the news, using Caitlyn's story as a springboard for discussion has been an eye opener for me.
Stop making references to how difficult it is for us girls to find the right dress, shoes, makeup, etc. It gives the impression that she thinks most women obsess over this and also that her looks are a top priority, which is not in sync with her age. Most of us don't stress over stuff like that past the age of 30ish. Also, she might wear clothes that are not quite so tight, reveal leg, cleavage, shoulder, etc. She does have a great body, but have a look around at how other women in their 60s dress even if they have great bodies too.
She did handle the interview with Diane Sawyer well (but she wasn't flashily dressed during that interview), and I liked what she had to say during her award acceptance speech recently (minus the jokes about how hard it is to be a woman). If she could only tone down her image a bit, I think it would make a difference. A lot of people tend to base their opinions on what they see, more than the substance of someone's speech.
Last edited by ReineD; 07-28-2015 at 10:22 PM.
Reine
so if cd's can't use Caitlyn for purposes of garnering support ...they trash her.... and imply ts looks down on cds...that's whats sadI agree with Reine.
CD's r often looked down on by TS's. Even here. When someone like Caitlyn comes out as a CD? Then, we'll see the gloves come off and MAY see all the "nice", "nice", interviews and comments disappear!
if cd's cant gain support for dressing, its ts's fault..thats bs..
and when ts call out cd for it, they get trashed as divisive....
I agree Reine that Caitlyn can do a better job and hopefully she will... she is just starting out...
and i'd add as others have she is a Hollywood person...the appropriate role models are not the average person
Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 07-29-2015 at 08:13 AM.
RD:
Notice that I did not mention transgender or transsexual in what I said. I'm speaking to the idea of having serious, largely irreversible surgeries of many hours duration For Money. ANY surgery is potentially life-threatening, so that takes it 'way beyond sewing up a bad cut. So, logic would say that surgery for money cannot be without considerable risk.
The underlying point here is that if this concept, as presented above, makes no sense (and it doesn't), then adding the terms transgender or transsexual is meaningless.
A suggestion: ask the question WITHOUT references to Ms. Jenner, transgender or transsexual.
DeeAnn
I watched i with the wife like I do I am Jazz, it is just ability for people who don't crossdress or Trans to understand it. 10 years ago the most we had was Rupal, I think the press is good.
No regrets except I should have got dressed & stepped out sooner.
I truly hope there is more to Caitlyn. I wish her the best in what ever she is trying to accomplish. No matter what the reason this is her journey and at least on the surface she has some support. That is all any of us in any mode of our journeys crave. I have read every post to this before commenting and with the good, bad and ugly, this has brought OUR community to the lime light. We are being talked about and not ignored good or bad.
Only Caitlyn knows why she decided to Come Out, and from what I've gathered in the little I've observed she has struggled with this for more years than some have been alive on here. Yes she's had the funds to do what ever procedure she thought was right for her but He earned that long before now.
We are watching her journey and IMO need to be respectful of that as we would hope others would be of ours. Some areas of our lifestyles seem to be getting more acceptance than others, great for them, our turn will either come or it won't. Please never hate on another member of our community for being a little more accepted. None of us have it easy and it is wasted energy.
Well, that's true. When she was Bruce, she was surrounded by a bevy of women who are Not representational of the average woman. lol. She has been surrounded by Hollywood glam on steroids.
Hopefully she will recognize in time that she carries a much more serious message than the family carries in the Kardashian reality show, and she will tailor her presentation accordingly, as a spokesperson for people whose gender doesn't match their sex ... most of whom, may I add, go through emotional hell during the process of realization through to transition (like she has herself). And so the focus should be on more serious things and not so much on the frivolous, like looks and style. IMO.
OK .. an example that immediately comes to mind of other Hollywood personalities who have taken on more serious messages is Jane Fonda. She was a hot babe in her movies when she was young, but when engaged in activism she knew enough to tone it down in order to focus on her message. This is not an endorsement of her position or her politics, just a comment on her presentation while she was addressing political issues.
Jane Fonda as a hot babe
Jane Fonda as an activist
Reine
This is the first time in her life that Caitlyn has been free to be herself so she should be allowed to dress as she wishes. Everybody should be free to dress as they wish. Criticising her because you do not like her clothes is very sad. By the way are you suggesting she should wear an helmet like Jane Fonda. Based on some of the comments here it might be a good idea.
Caitlyn does not owe anyone anything. She is transitioning and is entitled to do that however she wants. Yes she is famous, in the US at least, but I think she is using her fame in a positive manner.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Emma. Her clothes are very nice. The issue is having an awareness of how she is seen outside the TG community, if she wants people to take her seriously. You say she doesn't owe anyone anything. You're right. But, Caitlyn has said that she has an important message to carry. She will carry it better if she tones down her presentation.
Reine
The general public does not make the many distinctions that we do between the various parts of our spectrum. They lump us all together. I do not believe that expecting the mainstream public to learn the nuances of the TG spectrum is any more reasonable than expecting them to learn all the different modes of gay experience. As long as the core messages of respect and tolerance for us are transmitted it will be a big win for all of us.
One thing is for certain, unless they just crawled out of a cave no adult will ever again be able to say that they don't know of a TG person..
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
You don't know she isn't. For all you know she's eating ice cream out of the box in her cotton night gown reading this
That's the point. NO ONE fits the model. Soccer mom clothes...glam clothes...jeans and a T-shirt, there is always someone here who will say it isn't what we should wear. It doesn't fit the mold. Women are mad because she made a joke about how hard it is to choose an outfit (I suspect that anyone on an awards show really has that issue, they just don't say it). The TSs are are mad because she has money and spends it on things like plastic surgery. The CDs are mad because she is a TS. CBS is mad because she's on E network. Russia is mad because they didn't get the gold medal in 1976. What do people want?
Whatever it is, evidently Caitlyn doesn't have it. Funny thing is that people ARE talking about her. I have been here many years and that was an underlying subject the whole time. How do I tell my wife, my kids, my mother, my boss, my dog. Now you have a point of reference. You have an opening and people here want her to disappear. is she good for the community? I don't know yet. Let's see in a year. But, in the meantime, it has been something that people can talk to ME about so I can get MY message out too. So I can prove that I am a good person and not someone to be feared or avoided.
Other than never being a Drag Queen, I have lived the spectrum here. Most of us have. Sexual fetish, in the closet, going out at night, driving partially dressed or fully dressed in the dark, hiding clothes, buying clothes and throwing them away, going out in public and being scared out of my mind, going out in public and finding out the world didn't end, dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends, being who I am. It isn't a mountain with a peak, it is a railroad with twists and turns and stations that you can get off at or keep going on. If anyone here thinks for a moment they are better, higher, more evolved as a TG, just remember, pedestals are high and lonely and when you fall off, the higher you think you are the more pieces you will shatter into.
Is she good? Is she not? Who knows, she IS.
Last note: quit the sniping at each other. You can make your point without throwing sand at others in this box. Play nice.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Maybe I've just been missing it, but when and how does this happen here? I've read quite a lot of discussions here, and while I can think of some where people were a bit blunt (but not really unreasonable), but none where I would say CDs were really looked down upon.
So, I completely agree with this. Honestly, during the first 1.5 minutes of her award acceptance speech I was rolling my eyes and groaning, "not again". Then the good part hit and the water works started. I understand her (and others') desire to be "validated" in a typically female fashion, but I hated that her first public "reveal" was glamour shots with a bit of pin-up thrown in. That said, I also feel really, really bad for her. Having watched the first episode of "I Am Cait" and gotten a better look at the extent of the procedures she pursued on her face, I have to believe that she had (and probably is still dealing with) some fairly severe body image issues. I have no idea if that's true or not, but I honestly can't even begin to imagine the pressures involved in openly transitioning while already a celebrity.
One thing I find interesting is that, for all the significant work she had done on her face, she has not pursued any noticeable changes to her voice as far as I can tell.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Oh, I realize this, Lorileah.
Probably not a cotton nightgown, though. I think she's probably more a silk or satin type. ;-)
When the answers escape us when we start to fade
Remember who loved you and the ones who have stayed
Cause my body will fail, but my soul will go on
So don't you get lonely I'm right where you are
"Only Caitlyn knows why she decided to Come Out,"
Because she needed to be seen by the public as female and needs that identity reflected back to her.
"One thing I find interesting is that, for all the significant work she had done on her face, she has not pursued any noticeable changes to her voice as far as I can tell."
How do you know she isn't working on it. Voice box surgery raises the base pitch, but doesn't address the resonance, breathing, inflection and prosody of female speech. That is only attained by practice and use. I'm finding that part to be very difficult. I've been practicing for over 2 years. I hardly get misgendered on the phone anymore, but not always. Talking to strangers is much easier than talking to friends, family in the office or to long time clients. I tend to revert back to familiar voice and patterns during those encounters. Talk to many transitioners and transitioned individuals. You'll find that voice is the hardest part of this journey.
"When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes
"Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation
"A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W
well gurlies, if she has got 10% of the rest of the world talking about her about 10% as much as happens on here, its a RESULT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.
thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er
Well, personally, as a crossdresser I'm not mad about anything, with the possible exception of the B/S that sometimes appears in print here and is passed off as logic.
There is an old axiom about public relations, such that the problem isn't when people talk about you. The problem is when people STOP talking about you.
But, you have to ask the question is having a Lightning Rod better than not having a Lightning Rod? I think Having is better than Not Having.
Anyway, by your list I guess I am atypical:
Drag Queen: no
Sexual fetish: somewhat
In the closet: partly
Going out at night: no
Driving partially dressed: no
Fully dressed in the dark: no
Hiding clothes: no
Buying clothes: yes
Throwing them away: no
Going out in public and being scared out of my mind: initially
Going out in public and finding out the world didn't end: yes
Dressing as a guy most the time and as a woman on weekends: + some evenings
Being who I am: trying to
The point is that we all got here by MANY different roads and at MANY different Rates and at MANY different times and with MANY different purposes. The problem is that rather than appreciating and supporting each others struggles, many feel the need to separate and distance themsleves and devalue others. There is No Way that can be useful, yet we continue to do it. That's what I find depressing.
All this carping about how Ms. Jenner dresses is a complete waste of bandwidth. I guess some won't be happy unless she is wearing a burlap bag with a rope belt.
You know, how's this: Has anyone checked if there is a way to get fan mail to Ms. Jenner? It would seem to make more sense to register your displeasure in some way like that where there is at least a chance that she might see it rather than here which is very doubtful.
DeeAnn
My friend Christine (Daniels, also a rather public transition at the time) took some of the same criticism in seemingly being a little too focused on what many viewed as the superficial aspects of being a woman. Thing is, she was going through an adolescence of sorts as the female which she wasn't able to express when she was a chronological teenager. These things bled into her blog, just as Caitlyn's bleed into her public statements. In Christine's case, these things along with the detransition part of her story led to much criticism (as in hindsight) that suggested she was "just a CD'er" all along which was absolute rubbish.
Caitlyn is probably doing something very similar but instead of making all of the wrong fashion choices, she is simply overcooking the right choices a bit (by virtue of a behind-the-scenes stylist, I suspect) which is leading to criticism.
I wouldn't be surprised if things settle down as time goes by. Admittedly, I haven't seen episode one of I Am Cait yet, but of the images I have seen of her since the VF cover, I can recall only one utterly casual (yet unmistakenly feminine and well-put-together) moment where she is standing arm and arm with her friends, backs to the camera. Otherwise, her signature style seems to be DVF dresses and meticulous attention to detail in her overall look.
Heck, because she is in the public eye, her look may never settle down significantly, and that is her choice. Does she have to present in jeans & Birkenstocks in order to be seen with respect by the community which she is so much a part of and has so much to offer to?
Last edited by Sara Jessica; 07-29-2015 at 09:14 AM.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
S J:
Point of clarification:
Do the jeans have to have rips and the Birkenstocks have to start delaminating?
Thanks!
DeeAnn
Ha ha ha!!! Those things only enhance street-cred.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
Ah! Thanks for the clarification! Judging from the discussion here, we MUST get it right!
Have an Excellent Day,
DeeAnn
I guess I'm late to the game, but no, I don't think Caitlyn Jenner's transition has any effect on the public perception of crossdressers.
I think the public is more understanding and tolerant of people who transition than of people who crossdress part time. And a large part of the problem is that many (most? I dunno) part-time crossdressers are closeted and furtive.
If you yourself keep your crossdressing a secret, go to great lengths to avoid having your "stash" found, even hide it from your spouse... doesn't it seem like you yourself think there's something wrong with it? It's hypocritical for a closeted crossdresser to expect public acceptance of something something the crossdresser him or herself treats as a shameful secret.
Well, I did say "as far as I can tell".
Also, yes - I know about the work involved. I've been working on my voice for a while now as part of my transition. I'm not considering voice box surgery because I find the risks to my voice quality unacceptable, but vocal training has been working fairly well for me so far.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
I didn't change my voice. My voice is an integral part of my new career. So this doesn't make sense to me. Faking a lilt or going into a head tone, to me, is fake. I am still awaiting the answer about how she somehow is stealing something from the "T" community. With all the negative press we have had over the years (bad movies, bad movies that were supposed to be funny, bad news articles about bad people who used a "T" front to do bad things) how is this somehow worse? Most of the feedback I have had from the world is positive...to my face anyway. Who knows what they say when they go home. But as I said, now people have a reference point. A broad one but still something they can compare to that isn't a clown, murderer, pervert.
Positive "T" role models are hard to find. One person did point out two. It is great we have scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians (did anyone see the article about Kristen Beck?), musicians, mothers/fathers, every walk of life. But they haven't made the impact Jenner has. So many here supported Eddie Izzard for dressing in public. How was HE (yes he...because he never said he was anything else) somehow a better model? And next question is"where is he now"? If he was a positive model are the effects still in force? The movie Kinky Boots vs the movie Mrs Doubtfire vs the movie TransAmerica vs the movie Crying game? Which ones showed the community (no matter where you are on the spectrum) in a positive light?
So the OP was,
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Oh, I don't think the rest of the world is even half as interested as are the people in CD/TG forums.
Yes, I know all that, as does everyone else who knows CDs/TGs, but my point was, her message is not addressed to us (or to the people we know who support us). Her message is addressed to the hordes of non-understanding, non-supportive people who discriminate against TSs. Lathering on the glam in a world where a lot of people struggle economically is not a good way to make the argument that people transition for identity and emotional reasons, and not because they want to be sexy hot babes!
I'm not suggesting she should look like a bag lady, just saying that it wouldn't hurt to stop making comments on how hard it is for a woman to look good and tone down her appearance a bit. She wants to stop giving the impression that she thinks the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy. :p
... ok ... looking sexy might be important to a young woman looking for a mate and wanting to start a family, but Caitlyn is 65 years old for goodness sake, plus she herself has said she is asexual.
Reine
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