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This is beyond ridiculous. Do you really think he would call himself a mountaineer and do you think anyone else would.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
You are using the same method so many part timers do when challenged. You use an example of someone who cannot do it to support those who choose not to for whatever reason
I've been a fan of ReineD for a loooong time so I'm thrilled to see her weigh in, BUT (as you can see it's a big but) I have one tiny little exception to her excellent post.
RD, you're making a distinction between part-timers and full-timers that I don't think anyone else has made. It goes to motive, and I am personally not or never have questioned somebody's motives for transition. I'm on record as supporting TranSitioners even if they're doing it 'for the panties'. Now, granted I'm also on record as saying 'bless their hearts' if that is the case.
No the only distinction those who have transitioned are trying to make is between part-time and full-time. I fully understand that someone may feel exactly like me and yet not transition for reasons that are entirely up to them. The fact is that I am not one of those people that NEEDED to do it. I WANTED to do it. So I did it. If you'll remember, I used to catch some guff from some of the old guard because I was openly rejecting the old narrative. I've been called 'not real' and everything else so I don't think I have any stake in the 'real TS' argument. (no true TS, for the Fallacy geeks)
All I've ever wanted here is a culture of authenticity. This issue doesn't exist IRL (In Real Life) because it's self selecting. If you're FTEFW (Full Time Except For Work) then it will be obvious to me and anyone else. My tribe are all fully transitioned gals who don't have secret lives. I am not passing judgement on those who are closeted, I'm merely making a distinction. They are different. They may have excellent reasons for being different, but they have chosen to NOT be a part of our tribe, to not share our struggle, to not join us on the front lines in the push for acceptance. Most are too closeted to even hang out in public with us. I am four square in support of NOT transitioing, because it is a hell of a thing, but I am also here to support and advocate for those that decide to pull the pin and blow themselves into the daylight.
The part-timers don't have anything of value to add to a group of transitioners. There is nothing that the FTEFW crowd has experienced that we haven't also experienced. Transition is not about dressing up in secret. It is about living your whole life out loud and changing your legal presence. The TranSitioners have valuable experience with name changes, and coming out at work, and healthcare, and surgeries, and post transition marriages and dating, etc etc. Those looking for answers about real transitions can get hard earned information from people who have actually got skin in the game. For whatever reason, the TS gals have put it all on the line. We've committed and we've all learned hard lessons. Yes not everybody has the ability to come out and live the life that they want to live, but that doesn't change anything. I don't have the ability to be a model, but I feel really pretty so why don't they accept me?
Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
I've obviously been doing it all wrong. I should have just put on makeup and gone out into the world and expected to be accepted as female. Oops it doesn't work that way.
emma, there is no "method" I am using whatsoever to validate anyone. I am merely showing what I see as the paradox of TS women who are self identifying as women, even though physically/genetically they are not women. Life circumstances be damned right.... what if along the way of discovering they are women internally, but had a wife and kids.... and some horrific tragedy happened to a member of their family, and took all their resources, finances, time, everything dealing with it. So, for a purpose greater than their own, they opt not to transition. Something of greater importance than their being physically female for them, but internally they are still female.
TS women want validation for being women even though they may not be able to make a full transition. Or life circumstances are just so overwhelming for them that they cannot make a full transition in good conscience . How is this really so different? Oddly, for those in here who are saying anything short of full time or going as far as possible despite any circumstance = not being a woman. Isn't that sort of the same type of mentality used by so many in the vanilla world, once a man, born a man, always a man no matter what they do?
Wow, so the very thing that is opening doors and making transition not as difficult, and overall general acceptance is also the thing that is causing more difficulty with validation? I see quite the paradox with this....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn
Fine they identify as woman and TS. The difference is their life experience is living as a male. They would have little to no value giving their life experience to those that are needing to live as a female 24/7. Same with FTEW. They live part of their life as female and part as male. Again limited experience for those needing to fully transition and live 24/7.
That is the issue. It's not that hard. Ok you identify as female. Self identify as TS. Live as a male. I'm finding my second year full-time as more challenging than my first. This with 3 years HRT. 10 months post facial reconstruction. And 2 years full-time. Legal name & gender change. Out to all. Socially and professionally.
Regarding your comment to Kaitlyn's quote. We transition to live our lives as female. That would also include having that identity reflected back. Those that may not have the funds for surgeries or are genetically challenged may not be validated. The problem with the TG label is we are not regarded as woman. But gender fluid individuals.
Thats not what it is about though. There are people here who have not transitioned are not full time but still accepted as women by us here. At least speaking for myself anyway. But in the world outside are still encased by the male identity until they get further along. Like one person here I have skyped with and even though she was dressed in mens cloths and all I still only thought of her as "her". Some in the real world too who I know are going to get their lives right. We will accept and do accept what is on the inside - thats why they are driven to transition, that is why we try to help them along. But not everyone is really "her" on the inside either - I have met some form this forum who most definitely were not "hers" - one was downright creepy that I picked up in another town to take them to a support group in yet another town - 6 hours in my car with him and it really was just a bit of fantasy for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
But even though they may really be women on the inside they are still working out how to be her to the rest of the world.
Why not? Isn't the recent transgender movement all about acceptance? For someone who wishes accepted as they present? Go out in the world presenting as a woman and be accepted as one?Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan37
This is bold, but I think this is what is got some feathers ruffled here. Many here who are or have transitioned have gone through every hell imaginable. Like the suffragette movement to where now women go vote without giving it a second thought. For many in here it seems, you aren't real until you pull the pin, and unleash the transtutonium bomb and wipe out all existing life you had and cause a mad swath of destruction and hardship on yourself and all those around you. Only then are you to be considered real. Times are changing, and while that has been the case, it soon won't be. Someday, not all that long from now, someone will be able to go out in the world, present as they wish, and be accepted as such, and we will have you here who went through hell, to thank for it.
I understand what you're getting at, but the literal phrasing seems unnecessarily dismissive. The lived experience of someone presenting as female, even part time, in another part of the world may well be of interest. Or someone in another line of work where there are unique challenges to consider when contemplating transition. Any number of life experiences aren't necessarily universal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
This is the part that strikes me as completely reasonable. Reading the forum description it would seem that yesterday's thread derailment by part-timers was explicitly against the intent of the forum. I'm in complete agreement that some authenticity is a reasonable expectation, as is respect for the fact that this forum is about our lives, not our hobby. If I want to hear about a night on the town, or getting pulled over with mismatched identification, or any number of other experiences then I don't have to look far to find those threads on the site. I do want a place I can interact with my peers. That seems like a legitimate request.Quote:
Can we have a tiny little spot in this giant forum that is by and for transitioners?
I should be clear about a couple things that came up in other posts after mineQuote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
i'm talking about validation that you have transitioned and live as a woman... i'm talking about the incoming external validation that syncs with the totally internal validation that makes for the most successful transitioned life..
as to Melissa's comment, I can see how it comes off but here is what I hear..
the PERMANENCE of transition is a key to making it what it is.... without permanence there is no transition....that commitment to your nature is what it is all about...my own experience is that transition was nothing like what I thought and I only found out because it became permanent...
the idea of part time transition means absolutely nothing... why can't we just say the person is considering transition? is presenting (as opposed to living) as a woman when possible to see how comfortable they are?
folks that don't live this cannot relate to this... why is it difficult to accept that I experienced transition and others have not??
why can people not take my word for it when I've done it and they haven't?? it does not invalidate their experience, it invalidates MINE
and then this..
ts people that don't transition ARE women...regardless of HRT, penis, etc......a ts woman is and was always a woman...
how many more times are we going to get "accused" of saying otherwise???
and then this..
Ts people that don't transition have not transitioned... seems like "duh!!!" but literally that's what we are getting caught up in..
in my own mind, I feel we all end up reverting to their nature... attempts to fight will get harder and harder...the older you get, the worse it gets...anybody have the opposite experience?? it gets easier??
and if the fight does not get hard, sorry but I have a hard time believing you are a woman...if dressing at night or a touch of HRT works for you, in that case I believe you are gender fluid and finding your own nature... it has NOTHING to do with transition in this case...and given how hard I fought to be me, I don't see why they wouldn't fight just as hard to be them...why even bring transsexuals into it at all??
the worst thing is I truly feel for people struggling with gender dysphoria... the answer is live your nature....fully and permanently... otherwise suffer...and suffer worse and worse over time
Transition is change, and there are people who modify their bodies through HRT. There has been a transition of sorts, in the literal sense of the word, from fully male to no longer fully male even if they don't have BA, FFS ... and we won't get into whether SRS is required to consider someone fully transitioned since opinions vary widely on the subject. Likely HRT will not be enough for most people to appear as a female, but it has been for a few people, even those who live full time, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
Also, since full transition is a three part process (physical, full-social, legal), anything short of this then must be considered partial? If you don't like to use the term "partial transition" to define the changes to the body and to part of a person's social/family and/or work life, then what term might be more appropriate, since there has been a physical and a social change.
I know. When I first became involved here years ago, it seemed the question was more black and white than it is now. There didn't seem to be so many people who wanted to be considered a woman in some circles but not others and I don't know whether this trend will continue and increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
So I opened this discussion to new ideas, keeping in mind this is only discussion and not final proclamations. lol.
My opinion: I think that a full transition results in having changed from male to female (for MtF). A person who has fully transitioned obviously is considered a woman in every sense of the word, save for chromosomes and biological functions but these things are unseen. But a partial transition does not change a person, in the eyes of the world, from a male to a female. They are changed, in the eyes of the world, from fully male to somewhere in between male and female, even if the way they are seen (somewhere in the middle) is at odds with who they feel they are internally (fully female). But that's what happens when people don't make commitments to full transition.
Edit - in the past before there was HRT and the possibility of surgeries, among native Americans for example, what were the Two-Spirits considered - male, female, or a combination of both, even if they did appear as women to the maximum level possible at that time? And were there Two-Spirits who hunted with the other males and who wore male hunting gear when doing so, but who dressed as women at camp? If so, would they have been considered the same as the Two-Spirits who always wore female clothes? I don't know the answer, but I suspect that no Two-Spirits were considered male in the same sense as the other males in the tribe.
Makes perfect sense to me hence the reason why I would never claim to be transitioning or partial transitioning. I am still trying to figure things out by pushing boundaries to find my comfort zone and determine where I will land . . . consider me a work in progress. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
Cheers
Isha
reine what you are hitting on is external vs internal.... and internal identity vs action and how that plays out
its very very difficult to talk about without crossing somebody's internal line..its not so hard to make distinctions related to action..
isha it will be interesting over time if you feel more or less validated... if people generally default to male or female for you...if your feelings about your gender shift
one thing i never understood about gender fluid is why is today vs tomorrow any different than morning vs afternoon??
can you wake up feeling female, get your mojo going and then by 130 start feeling male?? does gd kick in if that happens?? do other feelings kick in and you rush home to get all the womens clothes off before you burst into tears??
do you put energy and effort into presenting male at these times?
Hi ReineQuote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Are you confusing the word Transition as it is in the dictionary, with Transition as it is known medically for trans people?
Transition is a known process, when I go to my gender clinic and we talk of transition it is with an understanding that we are using the same language, I don't go in there and decide on my own definition and everyone is confused?
Nearly all the people that argue what Transition means are not actually doing it, they are not going through stuff like RLE etc. We have had several threads about RLE and it turns out those who argue the meaning of RLE, have no intention of surgery and haven't looked into what it involved.
So what we have are people that don't know what they are talking about being very vocal.
Yes, Transition as a word means change, but it isn't just a word in the TS community, especially to TS people seeking medical help.
So to try not confuse people I will use an example.
If someone is going to be a Doctor, before they achieve their end goal we would say they are training to be a Doctor.
If they get to a point where they aren't able or don't want to continue, we don't say they are a partial Doctor, you either are a Doctor or your not.
Also if someone is training to be a Nurse, we don't say "Well they both do medical studies, we will call the nurse a partial Doctor".
Reine, further to Becky's excellent comments, the dictionary definition of transition talks of changing from one state or condition to another, it is not the midway point.
Moreover in Transsexual terms Transition has a defined start point and a defined end point (either Male to Female or Female to Male). It does not encompass a "transition" from Male to Male with a little bit of female or from Female to Female with a little bit of male.
What precise procedures are necessary to accomplish that transition has no bearing whatever on the start and end points.
The problem that we see increasingly is that those who come here looking for guidance on what transition may mean for their lives are being counseled by people who have no intention of transitioning from Male to Female (or from Female to Male) but who accuse us of elitism when we explain the difference.
Becky and Rianna, I know that a medical transition involves changes to the male birth body and living as a female full time. But still some people consider that SRS is necessary for it to be considered transition, while others consider that SRS is not necessary, so even then I'm not sure if there is an agreement among TSs of how a medical (physical) transition is defined exactly. I think in this forum, because we have members who have been living as female for years and who have not had SRS, it is generally accepted they have transitioned even without SRS provided they live full time as women.
That aside, what I'm saying is, how do we define a different segment of people and what they do, who are no longer male in the sense that people understand males to be, if they are reducing their testosterone and are increasing their estrogen levels to the point where their male sexual functioning is impacted, their skin softens, they experience fat distribution, and they begin to develop breasts, even if they only appear as women (with the help of major gender cues like clothing) outside of work. Are they male in the same way as other males who don't do this? They are not seen as women by the people to whom they present male and this is their cross to bear. But they are not seen as males in the purest sense either by the people who do see them presenting as women and who do know they are on HRT. So what are they. There has been a change from male to somewhere between male and female, so what do we call that change. I came up with a term "partial transition" but if there is a better term then what is it. Do we need some recognition that some people are making changes to their bodies and to the way that many (even if not all) people know them, even if it is not to the same degree as full timers, or do we continue to refer to them as males?
I'm just asking the question and bringing this forward for discussion.
Admittedly in the outside world among people who are not aware of the full spectrum, there is nothing other than male or female. There is no "in-between". I was wondering how the people in this section of the forum see it, which is what I think Nigella was asking as well. If people in this section of the forum are not willing to consider a state of physical characteristics and social presentation that is other than full-on and full time male or female (whether the person is cis or TS), then I'm afraid there will continue to be debates about the validity of the people who are, in fact, in between?
I wouldn't think "partial transition" works, more like incomplete transition.
Transition is a process that can take a long time. You can start and never complete it or you can complete it. If the end goal is to be partial it seems it shouldn't be considered the same thing.
I agree, full transition is not the same as a not-full transition and they should not both be called just "transition", hence my attempt to differentiate between the two. :) But, they are indeed both processes that take, in the case of MtFs, a male body from one state to another (providing it is more than just clothes and there are indeed body modifications such as HRT or more) even if one desired end result is to present as female to everyone, and the other is to present as a female only to some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela Campbell
Separately from that is the way that people identify and this is where it gets sticky. Both the full-time transitioners and the people who go from male to in-between male and female (depending on what body parts have changed ... do they have breasts that can be hidden, do they continue to experience male sexual functioning to appease their marriage) all identify as women (except for Isha :)). So do we negate the changes that the non-full-time transitioners experience and continue to call them male? Do we call them something in between male and female, or do we acknowledge they feel they are female?
Again, these are just questions.
Reading this, wow... It seems easy. first if you have done it, you are transsexual. If you have not done it and are transitioning, Then that is where you are and I'm sure there is plenty in the transition stage. Some may never get an operation to change fully into a woman. But any who lives full time as a female certainly is one. The most feminine women I ever met was TG she males. Now, In sex if they are so feminine, a man would call them fem girls. Been there and have done that. They treat men far better than women in sex typically. I'm sure there are quite a few really good women. But I have to agree with Renee that partially completed transitional that they are no longer male aka the reference to she-males. Now many women like this are true women even though they did not do the operation. I saw where a man went to Thailand and brought home a women that was preop. He has a site for other men to find them. Why, he says they all all women and have the sex drive of a boy. That is what he wanted. So, if a large group of people accept a Transvestite across this land. Any who went down the road to transition is certainly a male or female that wants to be the other sex and many get stuck in the middle. Or in any case partially complete.
Hi Kaitlyn,Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
WRT to validation, it is an oddity right now. When I identify as a woman I will admit that people using proper gender pronouns feels good . . . indeed feels right. But I am a pragmatist as I know people see a male (one look at my avatar confirms that) so the validation if you can call it that is more likely people being kind. Hence the reason I don't get too upset when people stumble or address me as "he" vice "she" or "Sir" vice "Ma'am".
The gender fluid feeling . . . hmmm . . . good question and one I have to answer all the time and one I have spent quite a few therapy sessions trying to figure out. It is truly hard to explain as the GD I experience can be extreme to light . It is not transitory in the sense it rushes in at zero dark thirty then wanes around 4PM, sputters and fizzles out until the next week. It is more a build up until I cannot control the feeling at which point I find myself identifying as a woman.
By the GD being light I mean it is manageable in that to dress and present as a man in all aspects of life (work, socializing, and whatnot) is relatively easy to do. However, to answer your question, there is invested emotional effort to present male during these lull periods but it more a sense of "missing" and to some degree "waiting" for the next flip (sort to speak). Now when the GD is extreme I find myself emotionally drained and the thought of presenting as a man is difficult. Point in case, last Monday I was getting ready to go to work and when I went to put on my male street clothes (I never wear a uniform to and from work) I froze and had a panic attack . . . most likely the worst panic attack I have had since running down this gender fluid pathway . . . indeed given my age, I seriously thought I was having a heart attack. I could not bear the thought of going to work or living my day as a man because I did not feel like a man at that point. Now before anyone goes off on a "split personality" tangent I was fully cognizant of my personality at this time, no memory loss or black out periods so no dissociative identity disorder here. I just knew in my heart of hearts I was a woman and had to present as such. When I get like this there is no crossover in that I switch out to male for brief periods of time to deal with things, I am a woman in all aspects of my life and stay so until the next lull period. For example, I love to workout and do so at the end of the workday . . . this past week I did so as a woman which meant wearing women's workout gear and doing what I normally do as a guy in a gym full of mainly guys.
The above lasted the whole week and while I am currently presenting male and have been since Saturday, I can still feel "her" behind my eyes. Funny thing is when I am presenting as a woman, I do not feel "him" the same way. I am not sure if I have answered your question(s) well enough to understand but I can say when the GD is extreme to not act on it would be akin to not drinking water if I were dying of thirst. However on some days, I am only a little thirsty and can possibly go without water for longer periods of time, but I still need to drink.
Cheers
Isha
Isha
Please stop commenting about my beautiful friend Isha's appearance! You are a beautiful person and nothing screams male when I see your avatar. Yes we could all look better but I see a wonderful feminine being. I hope you will give yourself permission to be you!
Suzanne
yeah, and furthermore Isha is packing a set that frankly defies comprehension. I know you ain't tuckin' honey. :-)
If there is a better example of someone who is not transitioning yet has earned the respect of the elitist TS gals, I'd like to meet her or him.
Isha is authentic, and that's all we really care about isn't it? She is straight up honest about who she is and the journey she is on. No redefining of terms will be necessary thanks.
Of course in light of recent events, I don't know if I believe anything anymore. :-)
As with so many other things, it only matters where it matters. How my identity is regarded or perceived, what I'm called, the pronouns and all the rest, along with any sensitivity I have about them, vary by circumstance. In many where I present male, I use my given name and male pronouns, even when people know I'm trans. Examples include my doctor (trans herself) and electrologist. My therapist tends to use both, unless I show up for a session dressed (rare, as I have mostly come directly from work).Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Where I couldn't care less is where credibility doesn't matter. Including with almost everyone here. If I know you, it matters to me. If I don't, feel free to call me whatever you want. I really don't care and it doesn't change anything as far as what I'm doing.
I *am* sensitive, and self-conscious when I present male to trans friends. That includes the Skype conversation Theresa mentioned. It includes another with Kaitlyn on an occasion where Anne and I met up. Anne was Near Full Time (NFT™) at that point, I was, once again, meeting after work. BUT, my sensitivity was only with Kaitlyn - Anne and I have met over the last 2-3 years ... both mostly presenting male. Kathryn has seen me both ways and I can be self-conscious with her, too.
Because *I* actually believe what you do is arguably more important than what you think, my self-consciousness is rooted in mixed feelings about my own credibilty (i.e., to myself)! But that's all on me. There are reasons for my path and I can live with both the external perceptions and the self-doubt that creeps in on occasion.
I dont get worked up about the identity question here when it comes to people with whom I haven't connected in the real world because the contention on this isn't really over identity. It's related to a point of forum and internet etiquette! Mostly, the courtesy is extended. Join as Babette and you will be called "she" and "Babette." I.e., you are actually being *treated* as if you were female, whether you are or not. The conversations on identity that arise from topics like full and part-time living don't change the courtesy, they are philosophical points. I understand why someone might not like another's position because they see it as a personal reflection, but it's actually not. These are theoretical and philosophical points. Views that can - and do - come down differently in individual cases in real life. A person may well strongly argue the idea that FTEFW isn't transition and, that as a permanent arrangement, reflects on identity. The same person might well acknowledge the identity in real life!
It doesn't make make sense to to extend identity courtesy in a discussion where the question of identity is the point. It's not only irrelevant, but if so extended, merely adds unnecessary verbiage. "Babette: I'm FTEFW, will never have FFS, take hormones, or have SRS, and always will be just like this, and I'm a woman! ... Edna: You're a woman, all-righty, but my view is that ..."
Really? Are people SO sensitive to a theoretical point that they need this validation from someone on the internet? Whom they typically don't know?
I don't know if the the arguments about identity are due to personal sensitivity or if they are philosophical disagreements. But I initially thought if both sides could agree on the following three points, there might be fewer circular arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
1. Full time transition is not the same as someone who has begun a physical transition but whose end point is not full time.
2. Both camps' gender identities might still be the same.
3. If there is agreement on the above, then use a term other than just "transition" to acknowledge the change from male to "somewhere in between male and female", whether people use full-time transition vs. partial transition, or something else.
I agree with you. But then it's difficult to know the motives for not going full time. Is it for convenience to not deal with internalized transphobia, to appease a marriage, to preserve male sexual functioning, or is it to continue a stream of income for survival. Does the motive mask a reluctance to give up a male gender role which brings into question the innate gender identity, or is the motive a question of financial survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
So maybe it is not possible to agree on terms, since the terms depend on the motives. And if the motive to not transition full time is an underlying desire to preserve a male gender role, then I can see why someone might be sensitive since this would cause internal conflict.
Edit - Years ago there were equally contentious arguments here between full time TSs, on the question of SRS. Did the reason to not choose SRS (except for people who could not afford it or who had medical issues preventing surgery) mask an underlying desire to preserve male sexual functioning, and if so, could they claim a female gender identity. In other words, did full transition necessarily include SRS. I don't know what the consensus among TSs is now; if it is generally accepted that the decision to not have SRS if the motive is to continue having sex as a male, does not affect a person's gender identity as a female.
Not on day one, or ten or one-hundred. But if you/we do this enough, it will cease to raise eyebrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan37
It is a socialization exercise, really.
'We' as a species have a hard time with the strange and unknown. The only way past that is exposure. I taught my daughter how to deal with confrontations that way, and my son how to deal with wasps & bees. Most of it is fear of the unknown.
- MM
Reine, I think "transition" is a term that best refers to people who are both cross-sex identified ("transsexual," as generally used here), and go full-time (at a minimum). I don't mind any of the grammatical senses used, as long as they are coherent in meaning, i.e., they describe the same thing or intention. I use "I am transitioning" all the time, and with a few quizzical exceptions - here - everyone understands *exactly* what that means.
Without getting into the morass of the underlying discussion, I accept that not all cross-sex identified people transition. So your gender identity point is theoretically valid. This is a transsexual forum, however, and most of the noise, as I see it, is coming from gender variant people of various types and identities. These have their own needs and solutions. Maybe they do need their own term. These people are often a better fit here than to the CD forum, though the regularity of the conflict makes me wonder. Maybe their concerns would be better addressed in a gender-variant forum rather than splitting the transsexual forum along transitioner and non-transitioner lines.
Thanks for your thoughts, Lea (and everyone else).
Lea, I agree that a forum for gender variant individuals would give them a place for free flow of discussion that doesn't conflict with the needs of the binary transitioners. But when I look at the transmasculine forum, I see that it is mainly inactive. Would a gender variant forum stand a chance of regular discussion? It is a tough one as it obviously isn't a clean fit. There are similarities and there are definitely differences.
As a long time member and an out [for 11 years] "gender fluid" TG identifying person,I am curious as to who some of you feel is such a problem here on this forum....We all are on the same playground,just chose different friends to play with. I can tell you honestly that living an open,gender fluid life is far more challenging for the "masses" to accept. Those that get it are joined by those that learn from you. In the end ,we are a very effective "teaching tool"...
It's not a particular person Rogina, it's just a sort of movement towards a very relaxed interpretation of transition that some of us would like to see nipped in the bud.
The value of this forum (in my opinion) is largely derived from the frank and honest information from the people that have actually transitioned. Some of us here want to retain the integrity of words like Transition and Full-time and some others want to keep stretching the meaning of long held terms until pretty much everyone is considered to be transitioning even though they have no intention of even changing their name.
It's gotten to the point that people get on HRT and start giving transition advice. I can't speak for the other girls, but my concern isn't for the established gals. It's for the new gals (or dudes) who don't know the difference. I know the Safe Haven is allegedly for transitioners but I'm told that there are part time people in there as well and besides that wouldn't help the people who have questions anyway.
I would personally like to see the TS group be a closet free zone, but instead we have what I would consider to be way too much discussion about 'no fly zones' and 'male mode'. Most of us here consider 'coming out' to be an integral part of the process and lately there is a contingent who would argue that coming out is optional. Shoot we even had a few gals recently trying to redefine a term as old as RLE. Obviously it's just semantics for the familiar, but there are a LOT of people who read and never post. These people have concerns and I really like the idea that if they stumble onto this site (like I did) they will at least find some clarity.
Clarity, good luck with that.
This is the TS forum, that's people that are Transsexual or may think they are Transsexual.
And while I value the input of gender fluid, TG or non-TS identified part timers, I really wish they would have some respect.
Too often we have some TG members (not TS) pop in here because they are particularly 'in the zone' and wonder about their feelings, that's great come in and we will chat.
But instead they end up trying to redefine our necessary medical words (medical as in mental not surgery, gender therapists etc), because they need to validate their feelings, sure validate them but don't twist things.
Then those people stir up the natives, realise this TS/full-time stuff is serious, then disappear back to the CD forum.
It's constant and it's tiring, how long will it be before the TS members are so sick of their conversations being constantly aggravated that they just leave.
I'm fulltime, I'm on hormones, I have transitioned, I'm awaiting a consultation with a surgeon for SRS.
Someone that isn't full-time, May have tinkered with HRT, has no intention of transition and hasn't a clue about the surgery will on a weekly basis try tell me/us how it is and why I'm wrong, it's really disrespectful and pretty arrogant.
I go to a gender specialist that discusses my transition, an expert in the field, I come on here and someone not involved in the process attempts to correct me and what they are really saying is they know better that these gender specialists.
So many TS members have said what Transition is and its so very simple. It's the word the experts in the field use to describe the process from one gender to the other.
Male to female or female to male. That's it, it's not about surgery, it's not about hormones, it's just was one gender now another.
There is only Transition, there isn't a legal transition, social transition, medical transition etc.
Lets break those down.
Medical transition, is only surgery it's not a transition it's just surgery. We don't say someone that has had a BA has transitioned. If you want to convince me that a guy has surgery and is now a guy with a vagina and that's transition, then your nuts.
Social and legal transition are just parts of transition they mean nothing on their own, someone changes their name to Shirley but still lives as a man, how can any sane person think that is transition, it's just a name change.
Change your name and live full-time as the opposite gender to birth, congrats you have transitioned. HRT, surgery are just tools.
Before anyone starts to think I'm being exclusive then yes you are right I am. I'm suffering from a mental condition that has really screwed up my life, I couldn't take it anymore so I went to get help, I've been going through treatment for this condition and I've taken a huge gamble, put my house, work, family, friends on the line to treat my illness. How dare someone come and belittle my treatment plan by making up their own crap when they have absolutely no idea.
I think some are so wrapped up with themselves, they forget we transitioners are actually really suffering or have suffered mentally, it's not a game or some ideal and that's why it can get so heated on here.
Transition (or RLE) is not some fancy word you can manipulate to suit your needs, it has a very specific meaning to help guide seriously ill people, people that maybe in danger of suicide who may try here to find answers and instead find even more confusion.
Almost everyone that has or is transitioning agrees on its use, those who want to change the meaning are not transitioning. What does that tell you?
This is so exhausting, there are plenty of non-TS or part timers here who regularly contribute and their input is welcome, I PM part timers I have no issue with it and I certainly don't belittle what you they go through.
This is not about them and us, it's about people getting their facts wrong and then insisting they are right when they haven't done their homework.
It isn't always clear which forum we are on when doing responses. I'm betting many just click 'New Posts' and go on from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
You have (at the very least) my respect. I wish I could be like you girls, I wish I even had the option.
Please don't invalidate me because I look like a truck driver. I *feel* female, I just need a place where that is ok. I have taste, fashion sense, love being pretty and HATE man-bags.
I get that the folks here who are/will be transitioning have a very different path than I do. I *love* that you have that opportunity. More power to you, sweetie.
I would just ask you to not marginalize those of us who don't qualify for that :/
We (at least I) will fight like a rabid weasel for you folks. I won't *ever* be where you are. I wish I could be.
We are all sisters here, and we all have our place.
- MM
How am I marginalizing?Quote:
Originally Posted by mechamoose
I'm not saying stay away, I'm not saying anything negative to your way of life, I'm just asking if TS members can discuss TS issues, in the TS forum without being constantly attacked.
Can I ask why you think it's an 'opportunity' and why it's an 'option' for me but not you?
Option implies choice.
I'm sorry that you feel attacked. As I said, I would bet that many posters here don't know which forum they are responding to due to software limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
I'm 6'2", 245#. I wear size 12's. I'm built like a truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
I will never have the 'opportunity' to be 5'2", 100+ pounds. Even if I did HRT, I would still be a big eff'n moose.
I won't 'pass', I never will.
I still rock a skirt.
- MM
Those that need to transition do not have that choice not to transition because of their physiology.
MM,
There are not many that have the "opportunity" to be 5'2" and 100lbs, there are however quite a few of us that are 6 foot and above. As Stefan mentioned we do not have the "choice" of not transitioning because of our physiology, we have hit a wall and it must be done regardless of shape or size.
Megan
Point taken. I'm *not* trapped, so I lack some perspective. Mine is more of a want than a need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan G
I have just accepted my physiology and decided to flaunt it, which I understand is quite different than others here.
I was not meaning to be insensitive.
- MM
And that makes perfect sense. I am new here and have only dipped my toe in the water and while I can identify with the an innate need/desire/requirement or whatever to identify as a woman and, I can speak to common ground on issues surrounding living your life in public including work . . . I am not transitioning (to which I will tack a caveat . . . yet). A lot of the areas discussed on this part of the forum are particular to those who identify as TS and as such, I cannot provide comment because I have no basis of understanding (short of theoretical). Transitioning as the term is applied here is (from what I read) serious stuff . . . there is not going back once you cross the Rubicon (sort to speak) and one can only go forward. For people like myself (gender fluid, part-timers, short-timers or whatever term you wish to use) we can see the Rubicon, may dip our toe in its water and some may be up their waist in the river but we are far from the other shore and until we get there we are just treading water.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
Awhile back I wrote a post on the CD portion of the forum "What transitioning means to me". It was written at a time when I was beginning to question and wanted an outlet to discuss those thoughts. Now many of the TS folks who water here responded (and none were rude BTW) but they were "disconcerted" about the use of the term. Originally, I thought "so now you own a word" (yup I can be as petty as the next person) and long story short . . . I had the mods shut the post down. However, we are all capable of learning and it was a few weeks later I had my learning experience. I was having a discussion at work and the circles that I travel in we have co-opted certain common everyday words to mean something different. A person (not of our ilk) was taking part in the conversation and used a term in response to himself as if he had lived experiences specific to my circle . . . I literally lost my s%$*. It was then that I realized that those who are TS are not trying to own a word (transition) they are applying it in a context of discussion (forum) to identify shared experiences common to themselves and when someone blunders in and shouts . . . "Hey if we change the meaning of the word, I can belong" it can be grating. While it is true that terms can become more inclusive, when you are dealing with a group of people who share common experiences, changes/altering of terms waters down the shared experience to a point where the word loses meaning for the shared collective and then it is just a word.
Cheers
Isha
Well said Isha :)
I think this is a reasonable request. It could be limited to access by approval. The administrators and mods could certainly define the boundaries of the transsexual forum to include only those who are transitioners by their definition of the term.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Until then, the boundaries might be established informally, with a polite reminder to non transitioners who stray here, as mechamoose indicated, but responding to new posts.
I understand, to some degree, the feelings of those who advocate for a venue for transitioners only, or at least seem to choose that side of the discussion. I don't feel that way because it seems all opinions and contributions are worthy, but it isn't my opinion that brings me to this thread.
I have a sincere question for those who have transitioned. My question is this, where does the person who identifies as female but is unable or unwilling to transition belong? There are members who do not see themselves as cross dressers, but rather, as women who must continue living a dual life.
If they are not offensive and don't overstep the boundaries of their own RLE, would they still be welcome here?
Mecha, I don't know if you know this, but I am a huge fan. I love your perspective and I respect your honesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by mechamoose
Having said that, your comments go directly to what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I realize you weren't trying to be insensitive but I want you to imagine how your twin or maybe an even bigger girl might feel reading those words.
The reason why this forum changed my life was precisely because there were people here who had transitioned despite overwhelming odds. If I had found a bunch of posts about NOT transitioning because of the job, or family, or wife, or physicality, I may still be searching for my truth. That may sound crazy, but I really didn't know any better and seeing posts from these incredibly bright people about surviving transition actually made me think for the first time in my life that it was possible. These were real people with real problems and they were somehow able to overcome the fear and explore their nagging gender issues in real time, in real life.
Non transitioners come in here and post these long diatribes about why the WON'T transition. That's wonderful for them, or sad for them, but when I have a close friend who is now sharing custody of her children because of her transition it kinda irks me when a part timer rolls in and says they love their family too much to transition. If there is no transition then why have a TS forum at all?
Yes, people can feel just like me, and not transition. I really don't know what that has to do with anything. I'm not here to judge people's feelings, I'm here to help transgender people in their ill advised transitions. (they're ALL ill advised)
I don't see why anyone shouldn't be welcome. I would just expect that they'd acknowledge and respect why this particular sub-forum exists. That doesn't include derailing threads until they're locked. It doesn't include broadening this area to the point where the people actively pursuing a transition or living a post-transition life don't feel like this is a safe space to discuss their lives and their issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlene
They don't. They do. It has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimberly Kael
And that's why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimberly Kael
But it's not a matter of welcome (or validation, or credibility, or, or, or) so much as it is to avoid confusion and distractions. Almost everyone (almost!) is well-intentioned, so it isn't necessarily a moderation issue, either. At least until the misunderstandings and disagreements get to the point of conflict. The simple fact is that there are limits to understanding, the applicability of advice, and the relevance of commentary, despite a high level of emphathy.
I do see the point now. Initially I was wanting parties to make peace with one another by agreeing to terms that do differentiate between full-timers and non full-timers, but it's apparent that calling everyone's changes transition (full-time vs. partial) is not the solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Still, it would be good to come up with a term to describe what people do who are modifying their bodies with HRT and who have come out to significant numbers of people, other than calling it an extension of crossdressing. There is a difference between CDers who are only out to their wives and kids and who do not modify their bodies with HRT and people who do (impacting their sexual functioning along the way) and who risk their relationships with extended family members and personal friendships by coming out to them, even if they do not plan on coming out at work and changing all their legal gender markers.
Again I see what you mean now. But to clarify, you're not asking gender-fluid people to not post here, as long as they acknowledge the differences between what they do and what TSs do? Otherwise we'd have to ask TSs (the few who do this) to stop, in the CD section, answering questions about perspectives and experiences understood to have been asked specifically to CDs, from their own TS perspective that they used to be CDers but how things changed for them, which does have the potential to skew a newbie's perception of how the average CD feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
That's what I meant. There are several steps to a full transition and they include physical modifications, coming out to everyone and living as a woman, and changing gender markers to reflect the new reality. I didn't mean there are three different and separate types of transition.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
Yes ... we do need different terms to describe the different goals to taking hormones otherwise it's too easy to conflate everything.
This small three-letter word is a huge admission, Isha. It spells the difference between knowing that one is not a woman, and believing that one might be given enough time to figure it out. Saying "yet" has the potential to change the way that people see you in this forum. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Isha
The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.
A part timer may have existence with certain aspects of going out dressed and interacting with the public as a woman. Their experience is limited. Living part-time except for.... Is not the same as living full-time 24/7.
I will day that although Isha is not transitioning at this time. She has experience what it's like to live and work as a woman.
I have been on HRT for 3 years. I inject and didn't participate in any discussion on patches. I have no experience with the application of efficacy of them vs pills or injections.
I would not like to see this subforum restricted to only those that are TS or actively transitioning. We are here to try to help those behind us that are unsure or questioning.
Melissa actually coined a term "transitoner" I thought accurately describes the process those of us are doing.
The confusion starts when those not actively going through or intending to go through the process. Dilute the meaning to validate their acceptance.
If you consider a male-identified crossdresser vs the "crossdressing" (MTF) transsexual, the experience only goes so far. Even though you might have THOUGHT yourself male at the time. Why? Because you have no real understanding of being male. Understanding of the male world - sure. Understanding of how you (woman) coped in a man's world - sure. But can you claim anything more than a bare intellectual understanding of a male crossdresser's inner experience? Isn't the extensibility of your crossdressing experience limited just as a crossdresser can only glean a limited understanding of ours?Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan37
So, I'm not sure I agree with this. Just to be clear, I'm only speaking for me here, although I expect many of us are similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan37
There are practical/functional issues that I have experience with, sure, but fundamentally my mindset while "crossdressing" was always and necessarily different from that of somebody who is, truly, "just a crossdresser" (as this site's community likes to say). So sure, I can comment on silly things like makeup, but me commenting declaratively on the "crossdresser experience" is just as inappropriate as somebody who hasn't gone full-time yet doing so about the "full-time experience".
To illustrate my point with another example... For a long time, I thought I understood how men think, at least to some extent - I ostensibly lived as one for 35 years, after all. Nope. Dead wrong. Clearly never understood them. I've known some good ones, and dealt with some bad ones, but only since starting transition have I actually had/taken the opportunity to interact with them in ways that have made it clear that I have no friggin' clue what's going on inside their little lizard brains. I understand a bunch of functional things about living as a man, but I cannot say I know anything about what it's like to actually be one.
Edit - Doh! Lea beat me to it, and a good bit more concisely as well. :)
Transitioner is to me a term which describes what a person is doing about their gender identity. It is a verb to me, actually CDing is mostly a verb to me as well. I am sort of getting a bit about the frustrations of many of the people in this sub forum who identify as TS women. However, I still do see where there is a bit of judgmental nature against those who are somewhere other than where they are, and haven't gone through what they have. Yet, most who now identify as TS, were once there themselves, and likely were once at a point where they either denied being TS, to others and or to themselves, or really hadn't figured it out for themselves yet.
By all means, anyone who is not transitioning and or planning to should imo NOT being giving any advice or much of an opinion on transitioning. I don't come here often enough or have read threads where I have seen that (not saying it doesn't happen) but I haven't seen it personally. This thread, and the other which got locked have caught my interest though.
There are times where there is not a CD thread which catches my interest, or how I may be feeling about myself at the moment seems to resonate there, but here it may. Before I go any further, I will state I do not identify as TS, and have no plans on transitioning. I will also state however, that my internal femininity goes deeper than the mere experience of wearing clothing, and having an outward appearance of a woman. Sometimes, the more real nature of this section just works better for me. Mostly just with the self identity threads. There are a great many CDers who are caught somewhere within this purgatory of gender. Some will and some have ended up out on this side, others will always remain trapped in it. I feel I may be among those who will always be more than a casual dresser, but less than a TS woman in terms of identity.
As is often stated here, most will say they transition because of a need to. If one can make a choice between transitioning or not, the choice should always be not to. Basically having a choice indicates one shouldn't. I can only offer a basic agreement with this logic. What I do feel though is a real feminine existence internally. I am not and have not classified it to be identifying as female. But, that femininity can often cause me to feel more like one than a male. Dressing doesn't cause me any great excitement, or thrill, or any sexual issue, it just makes me feel more comfortable. I have realized my femininity is deeper, more internal than how I appear or the clothes I wear. For that I only hope that my femininity is respected as real as anyone who is TS, or a GG. While not a complete identity, what there is of it IS as real. There is no wannabe about me, and no fantasy either.
I am old enough not to have my core social structure reside on the internet, but there are younger people whose socialization is as much if not more on the internet. There are others, and some among you who could not figure out what was wrong with you for so many years until the discovery that you were a woman living in a man's body, or like many, who get caught in some gender purgatory. I would only hope that the the TS side not be so hostile toward those who are in a spot of discovery, that they opt out of what is right for them. Or the many who sometimes just need to know their gender issues are more real, more internal and have a comfortable place to go, even if their path does not lead to transition.
Definitions are always important. It's important because we (crossdressers, transgender people and transsexual people) should be the ones to define ourselves. If we can't clearly convey the idea of who we are to the outside world when appropriate, who will?
Personally, I like simple definitions where possible. Elegance is often born of simplicity. However, I realize that clinical definitions often must have at least some degree of complexity due to creating and referencing specific constructs. For the sake of simplicity, the way it looks to me is:
Crossdresser: Someone who chooses to occasionally present as the opposite gender for their own personal satisfaction without reference to frequency or location.
Transgender: A person who has at least some degree of gender dysphoria such that their gender identity is not exactly aligned with their birth sex. To satisfy this, some time is spent presenting as the opposite gender. No qualifier is placed on the degree of gender misalignment; just its existence.
Transsexual: A person whose degree of gender dysphoria represents a complete, or nearly complete, mismatch between birth sex and gender identification. Conscious steps are taken in order to reconcile this mismatch and gain alignment. The specific end game is not stated because some may completely transition, but some may not due to medical considerations, financial considerations or life situation (for example, caring for an elderly parent and being employed may not allow for extended absences for medical procedures). Regardless of the physical considerations, the person will likely live as the opposite gender full time.
Transitioner: Someone who is in the process of consciously taking steps in order to reconcile the above mentioned mismatch and gain alignment. Note that ones personal end game is not specified.
If engaged in a conversation with people outside of this community, what I wrote above is essentially what I would say. I think it is fairly understandable if one is in any way open to new information. I can't see complicating it beyond this; at least for the first pass.
DeeAnn
The problem I have with excluding people from conversation entirely is that I, like many others, went through a period of time when I was trying to understand my own experience. Interacting with and asking questions of folks who had transitioned was a valuable part of my own growth. My primary motivation in spending time here is to pay it forward for another generation of trans folks getting to know themselves.
Sure, we could just shut people out but that's basically the nuclear option. It doesn't feel like the strategy of a healthy, growing community. It's throwing out the good along with the bad because we don't know how to deal with the problem.
As for posting my experiences in the CD areas? I do so very occasionally when it seems especially relevant. Mostly I refrain, largely out of recognition that my own experience as a woman was quite different from that of someone who comfortably identifies as male.