Attractive, or "Meh - take it or leave it"

Well, for me it would be strictly the attractive woman that I see I would like to be. When I see anyone totally disheveled, in those baggy sweats and looking like they could care less I always think "why don't you have any self-pride"??
It's not that I would have a problem with being overweight (I'm plus sized as it is), but not being presentable is another thing. I'm not saying you have to be in runway makeup and dressed to the nines, but at least show that you care about how you look. Brush your hair, save the sweats for your backyard, not the mall and this goes for guys as well as girls. The males with their pants below their crack ... c'mon, no one wants to see your underwear.

So yes, I think of looking like someone that is attractive, but even if I was female and not Heidi Klum I'd still want to be proud of how I look.

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Originally Posted by EllieOPKS

I think this is an absurd question. No offense intended but seriously, who would look at a train wreck and say I would like to emulate that. Why anyone, male or female would go out in public like that baffles me other than they just don't care.

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But that's not the question though. The question is NOT "who would you like to look like or dress similar to". The question is, "if seeing an appealing woman triggers a desire to dress, then would seeing an unappealing woman trigger the desire too".

I think for the most part most guys only see the "glitter" part of womanhood. How a gal looks when she's dressed to the 9's but that is definitely not the "norm" or even reality. Of course gals like to look nice but when, as you say, they are chasing their kids around all day taking care of them, every hair will definitely not be in place. Even so gals get satisfaction from motherhood and caring for their families. That's the kind of person I appreciate, appearance notwithstanding. That is what real women do. :battingeyelashes::)

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

No Portia, cross dressing is really not about you. It does not go away. It may quite down but never disappears. What he told you might be partially true but I suspect there is more.

Can you share what he likes to wear? Is it just lingerie? Or is there more?

I'll add that after being on this forum for about 5 years, I recall exactly 1 person who announced they were "quitting." 1. Others have buried the need for a time, purged and they always report that the need comes back. One's sex life and a spouse are not related to cross dressing. Portia, you can absolutely satisfy him sexually. That will not be a substitute for cross dressing although I'm sure he'll be appreciative.

Portia, Jenniferathome is correct for herself (of course) but not for everyone. I have pondered your question for decades, and I have concluded that, yes, my desires could be satisfied by a willing partner, if such a person existed. I think it depends on what drives the crossdressing. I doubt that CDers driven by an internal feminine identity and dress to express that femininity would be satisfied by a partner. Many CDers, like me, are driven by fetishes. There are things that women wear that, even by themselves, arouse me. Two in particular have that power, and a few others just add to that excitement. By complete, head to toe, over-the-top transformation, I can combine all the things that arouse me for maximum pleasure during a dressup session. It would be asking a lot for a woman to do for me what I do for myself (assuming, of course, that the rest of the relationship is good). If your SO has a single fetish object (for example, lace-top stockings), maybe your accommodation could curb his dressing. But you never know when it might no longer be enough, and more is required of you. And at some point you might (rightfully so) feel that his arousal is caused by the stockings, not you.
When I said "if such a person existed" I was serious. I don't think she exists. So my "yes" answer is remotely possible but very unlikely.
My wife knows but isn't interested in participating, so I do my thing and she's OK with it. She knows what I like, has seen me made up and dressed and seen my pics, but it's way beyond her comfort level. Oh, how I would love it if she WANTED TO, but she doesn't. It works for us.
I suspect Jenniferathome is correct for the vast majority of CDers. Maybe a few of us could be satisfied by a dressing partner, but it could be a slippery slope you don't need to start down. Wearing what he likes is great if you're comfortable with it, but expecting it to replace his desire to crossdress is unrealistic. Better to let him do his thing, privately if necessary.

I am only attracted to a small perdentage of GG's. I find many cute, pretty, nice looking. But, only rarely do I see one , that is dressed in the styles i adore, carries herself a certain way, and is super tall, and great legs. I was in Vancouver BC about 6 years ago at the airport, and heard heels clicking, and such an older, great shape for her age, lady in a skirt suit, hose and heels passed by. She worked there. She was over six feet tall, and i am six feet six! My heart skipped a beat. Such a GG is rare, and even rarer, dressed in a style I am attracted to. I emulate such GGs . I do not dress up as GGs, who a re unkempt, sloppy, and do not try to better themselves.

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Originally Posted by portia513

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

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For me, dressing is not sexual. If my wife wears something which attracts me, arouses me, it has no bearing whatsoever on my dressing or my desire either way. I would simply be aroused by what my wife was doing.

I think if anything, for those who have much about their CDing that is fetish related, it would create a bigger desire to dress before it would lower it. But since I am not one who dresses for sexual reasons, I am not the best person to ask of others. It would just seem to me that if the dressing was sexual in nature, it would likely enhance the desire. For me personally, it has no bearing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by portia513

My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

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There are probably as many answers to that question as there are crossdressers, Portia. In my case, yes. Sort of. I had a wonderfully satisfying sex life with my second wife. She was nearly always, as they say, "hot to trot," except for a rough patch around menopause time. My desire to dress never completely went away, but she kept me busy enough so that I was never overpowered by that desire. Even during those peri-menopausal years, I was able to keep myself away from any dressup activities, so that I never had to cross that line of being dishonest with her. I know that won't necessarily work for all of us, and I know that my good luck in finding a woman with such a strong libido was an important factor for me. If you're comfortable with what you're doing with you're SO, and if you're confident that he's being honest with you, then I say you (and he) should be grateful for the life that you're enjoying together. Best wishes to you both.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But we can't turn the situation around, because when women see an attractive guy, his appearance doesn't trigger a desire to go home present as a male. So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

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You can sort of turn the question around but it would require much larger number of FTM CD / TS than we have on these boards. We know they exist though, they just don't do forums that much.

I'm not sure where the original question is aiming at / originating and I don't really qualify to answer being female identified and transitioned. FWIW though if you want me to throw a spanner in the works, the women I am attracted to (I am female attracted WRT sexuality) are NOT necessarily those I would emulate in style / fashion / presentation choice or might make me want to buy that dress / skirt / makeup they are wearing.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by portia513

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

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No offence Portia but why would you want too?? I get it that you just want to make him happy but relationships are a 2 way street. Hopefully he loves you for who you are, not because you are dressed up in some lingerie etc. Everyone likes to to have some nice lingerie / clothes etc. and to really get dressed to the nines at times but does it always have to be about pleasuring a man? I would hope that it makes you happy and he is happy that it makes you happy. But then again I'm also one of those real prudes who thinks that physical intimacy should be reserved for that truly special relationship and bonding between 2 individuals in a committed relationship :P

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Originally Posted by Kate T

You can sort of turn the question around but it would require much larger number of FTM CD / TS than we have on these boards. We know they exist though, they just don't do forums that much.

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Has anyone met a true FtM CD. I knew a woman many years ago, who might have been such, but we never talked about it. Only dressed as a female for work.
Do know quite a few FtM TS, but never discussed the idea of where their inspiration came from.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But that's not the question though. The question is NOT "who would you like to look like or dress similar to". The question is, "if seeing an appealing woman triggers a desire to dress, then would seeing an unappealing woman trigger a desire as too".

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One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

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Originally Posted by OCCarly

One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

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Attachment 260997

Umm... I'm honestly... Hmm...

^

i 2nd Zooeys post.... i dont even know what to say....

Carly

Not sure you realise exactly how many women, cis or trans, find your last post judgemental and offensive.

Pretty much all of us.

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Originally Posted by OCCarly

One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

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Wow!? Oh, Wow. Ummmm.....speechless except for Wow!?

This is going to derail this thread.

Someday I would like to live as a women full time. Right now, I present as male for work situations, but pretty well otherwise live as a woman. In the future I would like to do HRT and maybe GRS, and to be legally a woman. Having said that, my desire to present as a woman has nothing to do with whether the woman is appealing or unappealing.

I will see women dressed and get ideas as to how I will dress in the future. There will be times that I might see someone dressed in a nice outfit, but I know that it will not look good on me. Ultimately how I dress is what I feel makes me look good, or what gives me a good feeling about myself.

I have no desire to be someone else, I just want to be me.

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Originally Posted by Kate T

I'm not sure where the original question is aiming at / originating and I don't really qualify to answer being female identified and transitioned.

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Right, I didn't want to prevent anyone from posting in here if they wanted to, but my question as explained earlier is aimed at CDers more than TSs. You'll appreciate that generally, CDers and TSs present as women for different reasons and I don't expect TSs to be triggered by anything, other than a deeply felt and long standing knowledge that they are indeed women and not men, even if it took awhile to peel back the layers.

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Originally Posted by OCCarly

One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

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To OCCarly Sexy Thang (the words on your avatar), forgive me for being blunt but you have a lot to learn about women. There are a great many things they feel are more important than looks or being sexy, contrary to what you might think. Their lives are rich with creativity, intelligence, work, study, family, loves, children, friends, spirituality, strength, giving, receiving, thoughtfulness, involvement in social issues, etc, none of which require being sexy or dressing like a fashion plate. And do you know why this is? Because they know that the people who matter see them for the women of substance that they are more than just a pretty thing to look at.

Reine, your post is along the lines of something I have posted from time to time. We have a lot of crossdressers wishing they were women, but they all seem to wish they were some "hot" young chick they saw in a bar, on TV or in a catalog somewhere. In reality, most women in the world are not hot young chicks. I wonder if they would still want to be a woman if that meant being a woman in a poverty ridden third world country. In an Islamic ruled country? A homely or overweight woman in America? How about an abused woman?

Crossdressing is fun as a hobby, but most of us are pretty well off compared to the entire population of the planet.

This is probably germaine to the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YBiS4GyyjM

Well, first, as a CD and not TS, image may be a bit more important to me. Vanity, narcissism, stereotyping? Perhaps, but I think only mildly if so. When I look at a guy with straggling greasy hair, sweats and a mustard stained shirt, I don't say to my self "man that's a look to strive for". If I see Ben Affleck or George Clooney in tux, I might be inspired to copy the look. So I don't see the issue. As a GG, are you inspired by Rosanne Barr, or by Sophia Loren? And it doesn't have to be age or weight specific. Lots of great looking people out there. Many who don't fit an ideal body image, but 1 do the best with what they've got and 2 are pleasant and confident.

Yes, I am inspired by good looking women, not careless or nasty old hags. Somewhere in between I can be inspired as well, depending on the situation, and the specific character or feature I'm observing.

P.S. some of the characteristics that seem unattractive are also characteristics that coincide with poorer health. It is natural to prefer to be youthful and healthy.

P.P.S.
I was so inspired by a friend when she was showing off her new "race car red" polish, I had to go get some. Very average 50yo mom, not outstanding. But I saw her nails, and yeah, I wanted to do mine the same.

In my case, it is not an attractive woman that triggers my desire to dress, it is an attractively-dressed woman. If I see a very attractive woman wearing something I don't care for (e.g., capri pants), it does not trigger my desire to my dress. However, I might still look at her, and appreciate her looks the way other men do. If I see a rather plain woman wearing something I like (e.g., patterned tights and gorgeous boots) then it triggers my desire to try on a similar outfit, but also makes her more attractive in my eyes. In no case do I want to be the woman who I am seeing. I am happy to be me, I just wish I could be a more feminine me.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

The question is, "if seeing an appealing woman triggers a desire to dress, then would seeing an unappealing woman trigger the desire too".

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Sorry, I misunderstood the original question. I'm not triggered to crossdress by seeing an attractively dressed or otherwise woman. I would say I'm often, but not always, triggered by stress but seeing an attractively dressed woman is not the least bit stressful for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by portia513

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

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I had a GF last year whom I was with almost constantly for about 8 months. She didn't like me to crossdress and I found that I didn't mind not doing it while we were together. The intimacy was more important to me, although she didn't dress as sexy as I would have liked. It took a couple months after breaking up for me to start dressing again. Now I'm seeking a better GF. Having a GF is more important to me than is dressing.

PS, I see nothing insulting about Carly's statement. To be objective, most of us are not as attractive as we could be, and there's nothing wrong with imagining how others or oneself could be more attractive. The same applies to personality, behavior etc. There's nothing wrong with thinking about how others could possibly improve themselves in those respects too. Or is society getting to the point that everyone is expected to not think about such things even privately, because it seems insulting? It's not insulting and that's the Thought Police popping up again. It's entirely honorable and natural to think about improving things. And it's everyone's right to have freedom of thought and of speech.

Yes, in a heartbeat. My desire to CD is that I love the look and feel of the outfits and material. My fetish has strictly been with lingerie ... no shoes, wigs or make-up. If I had a woman who did as you said, the underwear would all go in storage. You never know if you might need it again! : )

Reine, a thought occurred to me while playing in the shop. If the only way to become female would be to either of the two women in your original question, then my answer would be "yes." At least with a little effort, one could try to look a little better, but regardless, one would still be female. However, that answer may be more of the type some who are TS might give. Today that could easily be me. Would seeing either of your candidates cause me to want to dress? Who knows, because I don't even know what the triggers always are. I do know that there would be some thoughts about how they could improve their image a little.

I think Carly is incredibly honest. It wasn't an insult. Many people do that to me just trying in their minds to help. " you need bigger boobs" " that dress is too young for you" and the classic " you know women don't sit (stand move talk smile laugh dance ) like that. And yet..I women do what I do.

I also hear women tell other women the same thing.

Anyone who says they want to emulate someone they find unattractive are not being truthful. We all want to look as good as we can

There are times that I feel one way and other times I feel the other way. It isn't a focus on attractive verses unattractive...everyone would prefer attractive. Sometimes being an unattractive female in a pretty dress would be fine...just being able to wear that dress is all I would like....without judgement from others.

Good question , Riene. For me, I am inspired particularly by the attractive women I was acquainted with in my younger years. Usually women I did not date, but wished I could.
Men are highly visual. We like to look at attractive feminine women, (they know that). I would like to look like some attractive girlfriends of my friends, and some attractive secretary girls that dressed nicely for the office environment, from when I was 25. Models in catalogs--yes. Bridesmaids--yes again. Pretty hair, cute outfits, warm personalities nice makeup. I stared. I want to look like them, when they were looking their best. I just want to wear the clothes, shoes, hair and makeup of attractive women that I have seen. I have never bought women's jeans, nor even slacks. Not interested in dressing like the busy utilitarian women I see every day. However, I get a generalized warm glow when I am looking my best with a cute wig and dress. See avatar for one of my favorite outfits.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

I think Carly is incredibly honest. It wasn't an insult. Many people do that to me just trying in their minds to help.

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There is a huge difference between acknowledging that women judge other women and my interpretation of what Carly said. We do judge - everybody does - but I don't know a single woman whose identity as a woman was ever defined by judging other women. Most of the women I'm close with (including myself) feel pretty damn guilty about how often we do it, usually in order to feel better about ourselves, because we were judged too. By other women, yes, but mostly by men.

I'm sorry if this is over the line, but IMO if you ever want to reassure a woman that MtF CDs are unquestionably men, just show them this thread (or the dozens with similar content).

Last I read, Carly is in therapy, considering transition, and hoping to be on HRT soon. I would strongly advise them to stick with the therapy and not rush into HRT, because I genuinely worry for anyone going into transition with such surface-level ideas of the worst aspects of womanhood defining, or even contributing significantly, to their identity as such. Just my $0.02.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

...I don't know a single woman whose identity as a woman was ever defined by judging other women.

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Thank you. Those were the words I was searching for to sum up my opinion as to how superficial and misguided Carly's statement came across. Hell, yes, we all judge to various degrees. I am guilty of thinking on occasion "She would be more attractive if....". It is the connection of the judging of those who do not meet your standards and it making you a girl deep inside because of it that is the biggest problem for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Anyone who says they want to emulate someone they find unattractive are not being truthful. We all want to look as good as we can

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But that wasn't the question though. It's true that in my OP I used "would you want to "be" that woman", but this was in the contest of being triggered, as I've tried to explain ever since. :p The question is, would a crossdresser who sees an appealing woman while in guy mode, and who because of this feels a longing to go home and dress, have the same reaction when he sees a woman who is not appealing to him.

As to Carly's comment, I can emphatically say that when I see women whom I perceive do not prioritize wearing makeup, fashionable clothes, or other market trappings of femininity (and I do know many women like this), I certainly do not have opinions on how they can "improve" their looks nor do I mentally make them over in my mind. I respect them for who they are.

this is supposition on my part, i feel im fairly fashionable and knowledgeable about fashion, so for me those types of thoughts would stray toward the the more well tailored or put together looking women if i was supposedly that female if say my brain were to be swapped with hers. now that would not mean that i would not be in jeans and t shirts or sweats most of the time, i would assume i would present fashionable more than i do as myself for it would be easier to attain my preferred look with less preparation and ease from having a better quality canvas to work with and these are preferred interests but are weird in my male gender.

as it stands for me at present i am how they say high maintenance, i did not win the genetic lottery of either side, lots of paint and spackle, no hip, forms and wigs, tad overweight, not obese corset corrected waist just to attain a blendy look, when dressed as my male side me i suppose is the equivalent to the jeans and t-shirt or sweats days in the above scenario. easier and casual, i have had those chasing after the kids, wearing no makeup and a burp-stained baggy shirt with sneakers days, though my gut was not from bearing a child. i like when i feel like the "attactive girl" and realize i am the "meh" nondescript girl in the library or the harried mom only my gender is mismatched.

seeing the women i find attractive does not give me the urge to run home and get dressed.....

I think that many cis gendered people will see someone of their sex, admire the look of the person, or envious of their body and want to be more like that. At least that is how it used to be anyway. I remember back in the 80's a lot of us guys were really into looking good, especially when we went out clubbing. I don't know if maybe it is a trend, or what, but what I see now of guys especially is really quite sad to me. Now granted, I am in a higher than normal area of hardcore toxic masculine types, and I just have a hard time thinking that a totally unkept look, with an inch plus amount of facial hair from cheek to throat is a look that women are attracted to. Maybe they are though.

So, for us who are cross dressers, we reverse it. We see a woman who we envy, a look we like, and I think for us, it is a bit of a trigger as well, plus those of us who are attracted to women, then its sort of complicated because we are wanting to look like or be, but also attracted to it as well. I would think that may be something that sometimes happens with gay or lesbian people???

I didn't have a problem with Carly's comment. I thought it was interesting and honest. Interesting because we're all unique in this crossdressing/gender identity thing. What she is saying doesn't apply to me, but I don't see why she's being judged for telling the truth about her feelings. I don't see what she's saying to be negative, just misinterpreted.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

......................To OCCarly Sexy Thang (the words on your avatar), forgive me for being blunt but you have a lot to learn about women. There are a great many things they feel are more important than looks or being sexy, contrary to what you might think. Their lives are rich with creativity, intelligence, work, study, family, loves, children, friends, spirituality, strength, giving, receiving, thoughtfulness, involvement in social issues, etc, none of which require being sexy or dressing like a fashion plate. And do you know why this is? Because they know that the people who matter see them for the women of substance that they are more than just a pretty thing to look at.

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i get that its materialistic, superficial, narcissistic, perhaps of carlys response, not very deep......but in this day and age when many women use theyre bodies and exploit theyre sexuality, theyre womanhood be it for personal gain, fame, to get a rich man, whatever.......real housewives of wherever, kardashian this or that, is it wrong that carly has come to feel this way and answer as she did with honesty.....miss america is the objectified vision of a women, most are well schooled, talented, ambitious, competitive and want world peace, they do this because they want to, they may have been forced when young and if they were most times its the mothers.....you asked she answered, was this a baited question, that avatar is a choice available from the forum. this is the MtF crossdressing section. men are pigs sometimes but women enable them too....so i guess some women are sexist pigs too....if carly really wants to be a "sexy thang" it would be her choice. you take it for what its worth....

Mikell, I don't want to send this thread into another direction, but let me just say that you are not describing average women. You're just describing a nebulous stereotype. The women that I see around me everyday (and the GGs who participate here) do not exploit their sexuality nor their womanhood for personal gain. They are average women who go about their lives working, going to school, raising kids, taking care of their responsibilities, etc, all while trying to achieve some modicum of happiness, just like the men that I know.

I also disagree with your qualification of men as pigs. :p

Reine

Yes some woman do use their sexuality for some gain. Younger women will follow those stereotypes to attract a mate. Men will do the same. But some will just relax with themselves after the marriage.

I did the same when in transition and after, found it doesn't actually take that much. Attracted men but never could get into any real friendship. I got tired of all the chasing games, and let myself go for 25-30 years. Was in a mutual romantic relationship with another Post MtF so it was not a problem.

Even now that I started back into it at 65, it doesn't really take much to get men's attention. Unfortunately one also attracts the creeps or wrong men. The old adage of dress like others your age, doesn't work for me anymore.

In LGBT clubs will attract some Gay men, and have to explain my gender/sex. Plus the women are not sure what I am, because I pal around with a mix of CDs and Pre TG/TS. Have asked other Femme Lesbians if I need to tone it down. But they say dress and present how one feels comfortable.

sorry it was not my intention to redirect it as i saw it had already swayed a bit and wanted to add my opinion.

your right, you hang with respectable thinking folks and at classy locations.....not all are or do,
these types of shows are not staying on air because they are unpopular, they have viewership,
shallow people who fall for these stereotypes of women and men, not the average joe or jane.
but theyre selling it and people are buying.

some men are pigs, some men act like pigs sometimes.....you must hang with a descent crowd.

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Originally Posted by Georgette_USA

Yes some woman do use their sexuality for some gain. Younger women will follow those stereotypes to attract a mate. Men will do the same. But some will just relax with themselves after the marriage.

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The connections you're trying to draw here are just beyond fantastical. Deciding to try to make yourself more attractive to a potential partner has nothing to do with what OCCarly was talking about OR the original thread topic.

I don't even know what to make of the rest of your post, so I'm not even going to try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikell

your right, you hang with respectable thinking folks and at classy locations.....not all are or do,
these types of shows are not staying on air because they are unpopular, they have viewership,
shallow people who fall for these stereotypes of women and men, not the average joe or jane.
but theyre selling it and people are buying.

some men are pigs, some men act like pigs sometimes.....you must hang with a descent crowd.

---

Again, the connections people are trying to draw here are simply beyond reason.

First of all, that's either some crazy shade you're attempting to throw, or you are hanging out with some pretty intense people. Most women (and men) I know who watch those shows, across a wide range of ethnic/financial/educational backgrounds, KNOW they're trash. I have a lot of extended family is in Lousiana, and without getting too deep into their situation, I know some pretty damn ignorant and highly uneducated people. They know it's trash.

It has nothing to do with reality. It's entertainment. Hell, it's not even really the Kardashians' reality.

With all that said, I think I'm going to just retreat from this forum for a while, because stuff like this (especially when it comes from people who identify as women) makes me wonder whether some radfems I VIOLENTLY disagree with may actually have a point on occasion, and that makes me feel beyond dirty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikell

some men are pigs, some men act like pigs sometimes.....you must hang with a descent crowd.

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Maybe men act like pigs among themselves then, and this is a side they do not show to women in which case I would have rarely seen it?

And you're right, I do hang out with decent, average people. I've lived in the province of Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, and in the US I've lived in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and my undisclosed state now that is in the southern midwest. I hang out with average people who have average jobs. I've lived in large cities and small towns. And I've traveled quite a bit.

The idea that women dress up like vixens to ensnare men like the Kardashians or Mad Wives is just a media stereotype. Real women don't act that way. There might be the occasional self-absorbed girl here and there (I did know one or two in high school who were full of themselves), but this does not describe the vast majority of women on this planet. Really.

I wonder how many members here share your views, and if so, why. Maybe I'll start a thread to ask.

But now we're really getting away from the topic.

to a fault most times i will get burned for standing up for someone who has an unpopular position, i dont agree with how carly identifies with the topic, but i can simply see why she might see things her way, human nature, their is a shallow end to the pool, i have been taught their exists a deeper end as well....i feel i am in the deep end but im also empathetic to the ones in the shallow end, carly's opinion is not a reflection of how i feel....i tried to show some examples of why she could have that view, i do not personally watch those types of reality shows, to be honest just from the promotional stuff i saw their was no interest to try, on the other hand i could not watch "frozen" and it was wildly popular.

some education and compassion can help end the ignorance of our detractors globally as well as help those from within our ranks, just saying....i think i understand where carly thinks shes coming from, so i took it from where it came from, it did turn into a bit of a "dogpile on the rabbit"

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Originally Posted by Zooey

........................Again, the connections people are trying to draw here are simply beyond reason.

First of all, that's either some crazy shade you're attempting to throw, or you are hanging out with some pretty intense people. Most women (and men) I know who watch those shows, across a wide range of ethnic/financial/educational backgrounds, KNOW they're trash. I have a lot of extended family is in Lousiana, and without getting too deep into their situation, I know some pretty damn ignorant and highly uneducated people. They know it's trash.

It has nothing to do with reality. It's entertainment. Hell, it's not even really the Kardashians' reality.

With all that said, I think I'm going to just retreat from this forum for a while, because stuff like this (especially when it comes from people who identify as women) makes me wonder whether some radfems I VIOLENTLY disagree with may actually have a point on occasion, and that makes me feel beyond dirty.

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"Most women (and men) I know " most people i know too, but some i dont know. (especially when it comes from people who identify as women) or "people like you"?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Maybe men act like pigs among themselves then, and this is a side they do not show to women in which case I would have rarely seen it?

And you're right, I do hang out with decent, average people. I've lived in the province of Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, and in the US I've lived in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and my undisclosed state now that is in the southern midwest. I hang out with average people who have average jobs. I've lived in large cities and small towns. And I've traveled quite a bit.

The idea that women dress up like vixens to ensnare men like the Kardashians or Mad Wives is just a media stereotype. Real women don't act that way. There might be the occasional self-absorbed girl here and there (I did know one or two in high school who were full of themselves), but this does not describe the vast majority of women on this planet. Really.

I wonder how many members here share your views, and if so, why. Maybe I'll start a thread to ask.

But now we're really getting away from the topic.

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so you never met a "male chauvinist"......"gold digger"......the stereotypes exist for a reason no mater who gets credit for them they exist for a reason.

if you do start that thread i will not be responding, learned my lesson here,

i think i answered your question in post #83 but i also addressed what you posted in #68 and think the thread was a little askew before that.

the opinions here are not that of myself but i respect that they exist and the people that have them have a right to have them.

Reine,

After reading more of your clarification of your question, and many other responses, I feel your question is an impractical question of an impractical meme. What I mean by this is that I have heard this quote about want to be the girl more than wanting to be with the girl many times, many places. I think that the quote has some meaning for some individuals, but I also believe it is a popular sound bite that sounds good so is adopted easily.

Let's look at the implications of the statement. It is clearly differentiating between sexual attraction and gender identity. In our world, many of us are very sensitive to being branded as sexual deviants, perverts, weak, and therefore bad and worthless people. So a sound bite that helps justify our choices as being more wholesome might just be popular.

I think you are getting a lot of blowback on your question because it also has a subtle judgemental tone to it as well. The implication that getting that feeling of want to be her only if she is beautiful smacks of accusation of being shallow and objectifying. It is extremely popular to accuse men of this, both in popular culture as well as real life. So men can be sensitive to this criticism, especially ones that feel like they are trying to avoid the "typical" chauvinistic attitude.

Ironically, CDS may actually (sometimes) promote chauvinism or misogyny inadvertently, even while trying to overcome the same. I think I get what you are asking, but I think the way you've asked it this time is too loaded to get calm and well thought out responses.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

............. As to Carly's comment, I can emphatically say that when I see women whom I perceive do not prioritize wearing makeup, fashionable clothes, or other market trappings of femininity (and I do know many women like this), I certainly do not have opinions on how they can "improve" their looks nor do I mentally make them over in my mind. I respect them for who they are.

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And that's what we all should do. Women have no obligation to spend an hour getting "fixed up" just to please strangers they may encounter during the day. Most of us don't shower and shave and put on a suit and tie just to go to the grocery store or the home center. We just throw on a pair of pants and a shirt and go. We dress for the time and place and that's a woman's right as well.

Basically, all the comments and complaints about women not trying to look sexy or trying to look good are "sexist". They are disrespectful to women and people making these comments should really sit back and think about what they are saying and what it means about their attitudes towards women.

Bottom line, women are people, not objects for men to criticize.

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Originally Posted by Meghan4now

In our world, many of us are very sensitive to being branded as sexual deviants, perverts, weak, and therefore bad and worthless people. So a sound bite that helps justify our choices as being more wholesome might just be popular.

I think you are getting a lot of blowback on your question because it also has a subtle judgemental tone to it as well. The implication that getting that feeling of want to be her only if she is beautiful smacks of accusation of being shallow and objectifying.

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Meghan, thanks for your thoughts.

I can only go by statements made by CDers, who have repeatedly written here over the years that seeing an attractive woman awakens a desire to dress - not every CDer, but enough to be a consistently popular sentiment in this forum. My question was motivated by an honest desire to understand this and so I wondered if, for these CDers, their desires are also awakened by seeing women whom they do not particularly find attractive.

I don't consider this to be deviant behavior, nor do I believe that CDers who are triggered by attractive women are objectifying them. We all consider that some people are more attractive than others, including me, without criticizing those who are not as attractive. My question pertains to what may or may not awaken a desire to dress and I ask this question assuming that CDers are not at the same time critical of women they do not find particularly appealing.

The objectification you mention only comes into play should a CDer who is triggered by an attractive woman, go further by criticizing any woman for not being attractive enough and although this does happen apparently, I consider it to be a separate topic that maybe should be discussed in greater detail in a separate thread.

Reine,

I deeply respect you, and value your input and questions. I did not mean to imply that you felt or even suggested that CDS are deviants. What I was suggesting is that some of us may have thin skins because of previous (mostly external) experience. So this statement helps some of us fend off those feelings. It is very common for members here to make statements about how CDING is not related to sexuality (or orientation). I see the statement as sometimes building that guardband. See this very attractive girl, I'm not really attracted to her, I just want to look like her. No, not attracted at all, see I'm safe, I'm with the program.


Certainly not true for everyone in every case, but I bet if one was honest with themselves, it might be a possible motivation for the statement.

If someone is TS, I am thinking they will take female in whatever form. But would also choose a young good looking one if the choice was available. CDers on the other hand, do not feel such a deep feeling of being female, or being one at all. Sooo.... the more attractive ones are the ones in which we wish to look like. It simply doesn't run deep enough for us to want to be any female no matter what.

Cis, trans, male, female.... I just do not think it is some bad thing to want to be attractive. To look nice. it can be destructive if that is all we think about, or spend our entire lives trying to be, or that we value ourselves only on our appearance. But to say, hey, It would be nice to look like that, and maybe even make efforts to look more like that, why the heck not??

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

If someone is TS, I am thinking they will take female in whatever form. But would also choose a young good looking one if the choice was available.

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umm...... No. Simply, No. I'm quite happy with being me, my age, my characteristics, my face, yes even to an extent my body.

It is all just a hypothetical thought Kate. I am glad you are happy with yourself. I personally am not interested in just saying something politically correct, or some feel good answer or whatever. If there was somehow a choice for me to be better looking and 20 again, I wouldn't pass it up. And I would take my wife with me too. Oh to be 20 again. Obviously that is not reality. Still though, I am not going to be shy about the idea of me looking better or younger somehow if I can. I won't butcher my face to do so like so many hollywood celebrities. I simply care about my appearance, in male mode just as much as en femme. I will improve it if I think I can in small easy ways like diet and exercise. Grooming, skin care.

I find it odd, really really odd that those who are transitioning extensively alter their entire appearance, BA, FFS, Laryngeal shave, hair restoration, hair removal. But somehow the thought of wanting to look "better" is superficial, really?

Thanks Meghan, I understood what you were saying and was hoping to address the tendencies anyone might have to fend off a perceived insult.

Also, a continued thanks for all of your responses. :)