Because it is easy?
I'm all in for the gay/bi/trans confuseatron.
We center to our own interests.
- MM
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Because it is easy?
I'm all in for the gay/bi/trans confuseatron.
We center to our own interests.
- MM
Becky, it is all virtual reality anyway, my analogy, but the point being is that you are not a cisgender person, nor will you ever be. You had to get on that elevator in order to transition. Maybe you or others never stopped on the other floors. Some don't, I get that. But still, you, or they had to make many modifications in order to be who you really are internally. Or I suppose you can make none at all... There are some who don't make any modifications, not HRT, or surgery of any kind and just live as a woman socially. That is a choice they make, but they have xy chromosomes. For most who are TS and to physically transition, HRT must continue due to the xy chromosome. Like a recovering alcoholic. Once an alcoholic, you are always an alcoholic, regardless if you are drinking or not. Some may choose a lifelong recovery through AA, others do not, but they are always an alcoholic.
This thought of well, I have transitioned, so TG doesn't apply to me anymore is false IMO. You can successfully transition to match your internal identity, and live totally as a woman in all aspects, and be considered as one, but you are still and always TG.
I always think along the lines of people as flavours...!
Some of us are sweet to taste and very nice, while some of us are very bitter and sour so I just spit those ones back out...
I like the sweet ones, there the best ones :)
Kate D
I seem to have started something here. Some good discussion and thanks to all who have contributed.
I would like to add one point of clarification. Toleration does not mean that we suppress our own opinions. I am glad of the wide variety of opinions expressed here. However in expressing our opinions I make a plea for gentleness.
In Texas at the moment there is a raging debate over transgender schoolchildren being able to use the bathroom of the gender they feel they belong to. Reading the comments of those opposed one could mistakenly believe that the end of the world as we know it is at hand and using a restroom risks a violent sexual assault. Forgotten in all this are the needs of a tiny minority of harmless children who are desperately trying to understand themselves and survive against the climate of bullying and distrust.
the idea of 'tolerance' is insipidly hypocritical.
Who the heck are you to 'tolerate' me?
dripping condescension..
Becky what is wrong with being strong willed?
I never went out of my way to be mean in the TS forum I had honest questions and out of nowhere I was slammed hard by a whole gaggle of you girls.
I backed out and thought holy crap I'm not wanted here and if this is what transition is like no thanks.Constant back biting each other I saw as well.
Not sure if HRT causes that or you think thats normal female behavior so you all do it I don't know.
I looked to you girls for info and wanted to get to know some of you so I could understand more about how you get thru it all. I got treated like I didn't belong to the "club"
and y'all didn't want me in the "club".
Still to this day that has been a huge factor for me not pursuing transition.
Gendermutt, Your analogy is excellent ! Shows our situations, as different floors exactly, as i see it. i wonder if your building is one of Trump Towers? Maybe he came up with the analogy originally!?LOL
Would love to know what questions you have asked, you have never started a thread in the TS forum, with the exception of two in TS body issues, which would, under todays rules, be deleted as they are not TS body issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
The TS forum is harsh in its dealings, but if you think that area is mean, then wait while you start to live in a world populated by cis people who will not see you as a woman p
Nigella, is it a marine boot camp type of mindset? Because what is out there which is so tough that you are putting each other through some ringer, some trial by fire kinda thing? I am left wondering that maybe there are a lot of TG people who are just not sure where they stand, and when they look into the possibility of TS and see all of the harshness, the negativity, that maybe they turn away from that as it looks so cold and unappealing. Someone could possibly think, on their own discovery, that they seem to relate to being TS, but when they see the forums for TS, they think, no thanks, that's just too much misery for me. They possibly see transition as not a better alternative, even though for them it really is. They are just being presented with misery no matter where they turn....
Tolerance? My goodness, The TS and TG are trying to find intolerance in this thread, Hey we are all in the same boat on planet Earth. We are spirits in a physical body. We should all have tolerance for each other. The TS thinks they have gone through fire to get where they are and come down on us in the middle of the TG group as though we are lying abut what we are. But how much fire have we all gone though. If you have not walked in our shoes, why do you have intolerance for us. You are the same as us and we do need to support each other. Goodness, does estrogen do that to you? Why are we so different? I think we could all sit down and have a beer together and get along just fine. Nobody is any better than anybody else. So lets find tolerance in each other.
Krististeph,
It's hardly what the OP is saying, if we all had that attitude it really would be a crappy World, we all have to exercise tolerance everyday of the week.
Do you drive a car with that kind of thinking ?
Gendermutt,
I'm not sure if I go along with the elevator idea but one thing you forgot is at what level does the pink fog start ?
I may be inclined to agree with Becky, we may all like to be on the ground floor in the large lobby but with total acceptance of where we are on the TG spectrum ! Accepting we live on different levels is only going to segregate us, when most of us really want to integrate and pass .
GM
The TS forum has its highs and lows, my transition was one of the easiest known on that forum, but most of what members like me have to share is lost in what the majority of TSs have to deal with.
I'm sorry if people cannot stand harsh WORDS which can be read in so many ways and more often than not, not the way they were intended. Heck you can read a post after a hard day, full of stress and read one thing into it, then maybe next day, after a relaxing night, maybe a few beers, read the same post and read it totally different.
In real life, those harsh words can and do manifest themselves into harsh knocks, you only have to look at the current legislation being passed in some of the states. IF a member believes they are TS, lets face it who are we to say they are not, then they get REAL LIFE experience shared by those who have gone before, more often than not this is in a negative way as that is the predominant experience.
Do you think we would be doing anyone a favour saying, Yea Girl, go for it, its a doddle this transitioning thing. Sorry, but none of us believe that.
GM: I think your analogy is a bit flawed. As Becky pointed out, we're not on "top" of anything.
To modify it slightly, there are a couple of big apartment buildings in our neighborhood, and there are people living in all of them. There's a building full of men - non-CDs on the west side, and CDs on the east side.
Similarly, there's a building full of women. TS women live on the bottom floors of that building. Sometimes a few residents on the upper floors complain and we end up in the basement for a bit.
In between those two buildings are a bunch of single family homes, each decorated uniquely.
Most of the people from the CD portion of the men's building shop at the same stores as the residents of the women's building. Some of them belong to the same book club.
Very occasionally, somebody finds out they've been living in the wrong building and moves. It's a giant pain in the ass though, because there are no moving trucks, and you have to carry everything by hand. Between that and getting your address changed everywhere, moving takes years and years.
So I don't think we're better, and we're certainly not better off. We're rather different though. If we want to hang out and talk about the things we have in common, it's important to acknowledge those differences, and to not assume that we see the same things in at all the same way.
Sheesh- I give you gals the penthouse suite, with the best views and you are still not happy, if that doesn't prove you really are women, I don't know what does. :tongueout
My analogy is a virtual reality, not a physical segregation, perhaps I should have stated this. It is all about where we are in relation to our internal gender identity. Not that we would or should physically live apart and not mingle with each other.
Teresa, the pink fog makes you get in the elevator and push the up button over and over, When it wears off, you suddenly realize how high you are and then get back in the elevator and push the down button over and over lol.
Nigella, I really am just asking as to the why of the atmosphere. If that is really the best way to deal with the reality of being TS then so be it. Perhaps there does need to be the strongest of realities for the most difficult of journey's. I just can't help thinking though, that the doom and gloom that seems so apparent along with a not very friendly atmosphere for guests really is more of a repellent than it needs to be.
I have stated before, I get frustrated being male. But when reading TS forums, I don't see my life getting any better. I just see it becoming all the more difficult. Reading so much misery, I wonder sometimes why anyone would make the choice to transition. I don't get it, and maybe that's the point I guess. You have to get it to make the choice?
I've beenfor 10 years and never picked a any one way of who dresses to what extent. I dress full on most of the time and would tell someone just under dressing is not cressdressing. Or to tell someone full on dressing is over the top. Why do some think there thoughts are the only way to do things. I've seen this all my life. What ever one likes to do is good and if someone thinks it's not then that person can take a walk in my MHO.:hugs:
Angie
GM that's the point. Transitioning can literally destroy everything you know, losing family and job is unfortunately common.
It's not fun and if it's really not for you then the strong warnings will save you from making a terrible mistake, if you are determined and truly TS you will stick it out in the TS forum and find your place.
At least one person has said going to the TS section put them off transition, really? A few strong opinions on an internet forum stopped you from making a life changing decision?
Then you aren't ready and hopefully you have been saved from making a mistake, because honestly if you think a few opinionated posters are scary that's nothing to the brutality of living full-time.
You simply won't get cheerleading on the TS forum and that's because transition is very serious, it does no-one any favours.
Once someone proves they are beyond ideals and fantasy and ready to take it serious you will find they are accepted. Is it a clique or a group of individuals who understand just what it takes?
Btw I'm assuming people know that TS is different to Transition?
GM I genuinely find alot of your posts interesting and I like how you question and explore things, but as you said when it comes to TS you don't get it.
Look I don't get why a hetero masculine male wants to underdress in panties, but I accept it and I don't think I have ever knocked it because I see nothing wrong, all I say is that I have nothing in common with that person and typically the underdresser doesn't see a connection with being TS.
We can get along but agree we are completely different.
Yet you seem determined to put us all in the same box and that's when it all gets contentious.
Can't we embrace our differences and still get along?
That is the closest thing to the truth of it that I've ever seen written here.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
When you "get it", it also doesn't really seem like much of a choice. I could describe most of what I think people are referring to when they say we "jump all over everybody that comes into the TS forum" as, "we don't spare words with people who visibly don't get it".
Incidentally, I also think the underlying idea behind your statement applies more broadly than just to transition.
Maybe some body is borderline and wanting info like I was and truly wanting to "get it" and got treated like I was stupid for even asking the question.
That sucks and it still sucks to this day.
Nigella if the TS section is harsh then why is being harsh not OK everywhere else on the site?
I'm not wanted in the TS section I understand that because if I make a comment you always delete it. I get it I'll just stay out and let you be mean to someone else.
Your comment you made in regard to REAL life and predominant experiences of those that have gone on before is where the elitist attitude is and that is why people get so put off by you. You think you ladies would try and help others not run them off.
I really hate to feel this way and know I should be more understanding and tolerant but I'm not the only one that sees it this way so maybe its you and not me that is intolerant.
I can't find any of those questions by searching, so I have no idea what you asked. Regardless... If you're "wanting to get it", you don't get it. It's like breathing, and I don't believe that the most fundamental aspects of it are learnable or manufacturable. I'm not talking about facts or information or knowledge here. I'm talking about a state of being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
People who don't get it have come in and asked questions without projecting or asserting before, and I've seen perfectly fine discussions with constructive answers happen.
When people who don't get it come in and start trying to debate us into accepting that they do in fact get it, things get contentious. That happens. Sometimes it's a one-off thing, other times it's a persistent thing as somebody feels determined to be in there and make some kind of point.
Judging by recent activity (including this thread), I'm not sure what gives you the impression that being "harsh" (I would say "direct") is disallowed outside of the TS forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
Edited to add: This feels highly relevant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j2Pb0YwVH8
This was so long ago and I'm sure I deleted my comment or it got tucked away somewhere and I'm sure you all are frantically trying to find it and I wish I could help.
Very well could have been a lurker and not a contributing member at the time who knows.
I really don't want this to escalate and get ugly because that helps nobody.
I said my piece as did others of how we feel and I will leave it there and move on.
Zooey ask jenniferathome how it feels to get slapped for being direct and honest other places on this site.
She is just one person I know of that caught hell for being honest.
Becky, and Zooey, thank you for the compliments you gave me. Although I am not certain as to what box I am putting anyone in. While "I don't get it" lol, (video) I do get that being TS and transition is not one in the same. Transition is an action. It is a choice, even for those who say transition or die, as death would be the other choice. Personally I myself would opt for life.
I can only say for me, that this TG stuff is confusing as all hell to me. It made me consider transitioning. For me, it seemed like a path that would cause more difficulties then what life is now. As for the TS and not transition.... If I were to go to the TS forum and proclaim that I am TS, I am one of you, I am a woman inside.... BUT.... I am going to continue living as a man because wifey won't stay with me, kids won't talk to me if I do, and all of the other hardships that are likely to fall my way, then I would be called out as a fraud, or that I do not get it and shouldn't be there. (this is just a hypothetical btw) so you guys do seem to need quite a bit of proof by action in order to consider someone TS. Not necessarily a full transition, but definitely more than just saying so. Not that I would blame you, I would too.
There is a general feeling though from those who wander in to see what TS is all about, because there are some of us, a lot of us actually, that are caught in some weird in between world. Not just a dude in a dress. We don't really know exactly where we are going with this, what it all means. We do not identify as cis males, that is for certain. But, it is like you guys are putting up some pretty crazy obstacle course to pass in order to gain entrance, then I guess that does make sense. If you are TS and you want it bad enough, you will find a way to make it through the course..... if you can't, well then you shouldn't be there. I guess I get that. I get that I don't get it lol. I would only say that of the many lost souls, the way you guys make transition sound so daunting, it really can make someone think there is no choice in life that will ever make them happy. It will be misery transitioning or not transitioning. It will be misery just to join the ranks of TS. That is how it appears to those on the outside, wanting to look in because they are a little lost and are looking for a little direction.
GM prepare for the worst and hope for the best :)
But best to strip away any delusions first because if it does blow up in your face you know what to expect, if it works out well and all is happy most of us will be delighted for you.
Becky, that is pretty much the recipe for life in general lol. I would like to know how I am making you feel that I am putting you all in a box. I can assure you that I do not feel this way, and that it is not intentional. Perhaps poor choice of wording... feel free to pm me if it if you prefer.
I can't think of a single active TS poster in the TS forum who isn't happier for having transitioned. If you read often and deeply enough, you'll usually find this caveat sprinkled in amongst the hard stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
It's been extremely difficult for all of us, even those of us who have had it "easy" (including me), and new challenges pop up all the time. Some come from within, some from without. Transition is the saddest, hardest, most miserable thing I've ever done. I put my partner before transition through a lot of pain and anguish. I deeply wounded my relationship with my parents, but especially my mom (fortunately it's recovering, albeit slowly). I took away all of my previous "safe places". I lost some friends (made new ones too). I made my love life about 1,000,000 times more difficult.
It's also been - without question - the absolute best and most rewarding thing I've ever done. I honestly can't remember the last time I had really genuinely smiled before transition. For all the misery and pain, I am so much happier now.
If we make it sound miserable, that's because it is miserable in a lot of ways. If it's what you need to do in order to truly be yourself though, then the fact that it's miserable isn't so much of a brick wall as it is a speed bump. We don't cheer people onward into transition, but we do generally celebrate progress once you're on the path.
If that was me, although I do think that bathrooms designated for females should only be used by people who identify as female (although if there's no one in them then it's OK :p), I didn't use the word "qualified".Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
My point was, when someone identifies as male or gender-fluid/gender-neutral, why would they want to use a space that is designated for females, rather than use gender-neutral/single-user spaces.
But back to the topic - I really don't want to turn this into a bathroom thread, although I do want to address a specific example of someone who believes they were treated badly - I'm sorry if you found my opinion bullying or mean. I did not intend to disparage you in any way, by pointing out something that seems logical to me.
Zooey,
We have had crossed words before but I totally agree with your last reply, I still can't say for certain how close I am to TS all I know at the moment the balance is on the male side.
The whole TG/CDing /TS is a compromised life style to most of us, you decided to make the trade and follow your inner feelings and you list the losses it incurred.
I nearly took the separation route to live more or less full time and build a life around that, what followed after that I can't say for certain.
Then I realised I had so much I was going to turn my back on and possibly lose, I still have a mother of 86, two children and three grandchildren and a wife who obviously cares. The pain of losing all that to face no guarantees of happiness and more likely isolation especially now I'm in my mid sixties was too much .
Those who do make the decision to align mind and body are very brave people, but sadly not always happy ones but please don't think some of us don't understand . I still can't say NO TO TS 100% , in this community the decisions are hard ones to get right , I know I'm going to have live with the compromise I've chosen and try and retain the good things outside my CDing.
All humans engage in cost benefit analysis over most decisions we make. Some people on here likely have never entertained the thought of transitioning. The majority probably have. As I wrote in another post, I did in my 20's when the pink fog would visit. For me, though I didn't know the mental process I was using was cost benefit analysis, I certainly engaged in it. The benefits (living in what I thought might be my true gender identity and alleviating dysphoria) were far less than the costs (a multitude of various costs; most of those I still remember were accurate estimates of the likely impact to my life). So I moved on, the dysphoria lessened over time, and it became obvious it was the right decision. Even back then I had far less dysphoria than what I've read those who transition had.
My point is that most of the people on this board have engaged in cost benefit analysis regarding transition. Many dismiss it out of hand quickly as for them the costs greatly exceed the benefits. For a few, the benefits are greater than the costs and they move forward. Overall, we have much in common, the Venn diagram of our overlapping circles is large. To be dismissive of how anyone actualizes their gender expression can be pretty hurtful. Most of us aren't super stoked about being this way in the first place. As time progresses many try to look at the positive aspects as they accept it. The alternative blows.
If someone here puts on panties and fake boobs while singing I feel pretty, and feels they are in someway experiencing a bit of womanhood, who is anyone to judge? I'm not inside their head. When I dress up, I don't feel like my inner woman is being set free. I don't have an inner woman. I feel like a guy in makeup and woman's clothing. YMMV. I imagine there are plenty of GG's who are dismissive of transwomen, thinking and or saying "well they may have the parts now, but they didn't grow up as a female and they certainly don't understand or experience what a real woman does". If I was TS or had transitioned, I imagine I would find that to be dismissive of my experience and hurtful. Probably very hurtful. Similar to what some CD's feel when transitioned are dismissive of their feelings and experiences.
;)
I'm going on a tangent Teresa, and perhaps i was not addressing the proper definition of the word, but what it has evolved into:
The general idea of 'tolerance' is a wonderful, but it seems to end up being applied poorly:
What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.
The high-mindedness of 'allowing' something is what gets me-- am i communicating the idea clearly? It seems there is a better way to say this, feel free to help me out here...
What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.
Krististeph this is where everybody misses the boat just because you accept and tolerate something or someone its just that nothing more nothing less.
Its the liberal (social ) mindset that some have that just because you feel a certain way also means something else as proven by your comment saying "but that means I am judging your ways against mine and finding them inferior.
Just because you do something doesn't mean something else has to be involved.
If I get involved in a discussion with a person of this mindset (SJW) if I say something their retort is always so what you are really saying is (fill in the blank here) and I reply no what I said is what I typed not what you are trying to say I said.
I get what you're saying completely. I haven't been following this thread from the start so I don't want to hijack it anymore times than it might have already been. But there is another discussion we could have on the issue. When some people say they tolerate someone or something they disagree with, dislike or just find bizarre, they do so because the ideology of tolerance tells them so. It's not always the case that they become tolerant because they made an effort to understand the issue. This way, people can have it both ways. They can feel a little bit superior while at the same time putting out the virtue signals. I have had this from some friends and family that know I CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krististeph
exactly the point i am aiming for Kelly. You grok (reference: heinlein). Of course, not all people are 'tolerant' some people are more accepting. Thank you for replying- and bolstering this idea. You understood my meaning when i was not fully clear: thanks for elucidating the idea!!
The other side of this is that you can be totally accepting of something without having to necessarily like it. Sexuality is a good example. You don't have to be attracted to people of your own gender to be gay friendly or accepting of homosexuality. I've met fellow CDs in gay clubs that find the sight of two men making to be a bit of a turn off, but that never changed their accepting view of homosexuality.
Avoiding more serious issues to illustrate a few points: I like certain sports more than others but I don't begrudge people their right to play or follow the ones lower down on my list, and I don't perceive them as following a lesser version of the real thing. The reason for this is that I am not really into sports as a whole.
I can however be a bit of an elitist snob when it comes to music and literature. I'm a musician and a writer, and both (especially music) are a big deal to me. What some people call music and what some people call literature kind of bugs me more than it used to. I'm sure that most of us could find an area of life that we do harbour a certain sense of superiority and moral high ground even if we consider ourselves to be fundamentally tolerant.
tolerance :noun....
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions, beliefs, and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
When the word 'tolerance' is used- it is rarely in the mien of the dictionary definition.
The etymology of the word is 'to endure' which engenders 'persevere' meanig: deal with a problem.
So this is my problem with 'tolerance'. I am not a problem. Period.
There's a lot I would love to say in response to some of the recent posts here, but I will just say this... Plain Talk Warning™ right now, just like you get in the TS forum, and I'm speaking only for myself here.
I do not believe that I am dismissive of your experiences. I think it's great that you have them, whatever they are. In many cases, as is the case with some of the "fluid" folks here, I truly and honestly want to understand your experiences better, because they are often foreign to me.
If I seem dismissive (I wouldn't use that word) to you, it's because I object to the insistence on equating our experiences. I personally do not believe that a "serious CD'ing man" is an "85% TS woman". That's "100% BS", IMO. You can just be a serious CD, and feel whatever you want, without having to try and assert that it's the same thing as being a woman. We will sometimes have similar experiences in terms of the facts (e.g. "I wore women's running gear today"), but the interpretation and reality of those experiences is very visibly different in most cases.
I object to the notion that those of you who "did the cost benefit analysis" or "just chose not to do it" are on the same page as those of us who transition. NOT because I'm better or superior in any way, but because from where I sit, I'm different. If you have a choice, we're not the same. Once I connected the dots in my life, there was no choice. I do not "desire to live as a woman' or 'desire to have a feminine body". I "need to live the correct life", and I "need to have the correct body". The question was never "is it worth it?" The question was "how much collateral damage can I prevent along the way (if any)?"
If you are capable of living as a man, then we are very different in some rather fundamental ways. Not better or worse, but very different.
Some of you may in fact be women, and you haven't connected the dots yet. To those of you in that boat, I am truly sorry, for a variety of reasons. Chief among them is what's in store for you when you do.
I think we all feel different from the ideas of the regular cis world out there Zooey.
You are on one end of the spectrum and someone else may be on the other so yes you are not the same but then again are you really that much different?
You feel and live as a woman I feel the same inside as you do and present more female than male and yes we are different but not that much different.
We both have our original equipment.
I agree that we are very different in that the concept of transition crossed my mind off and on, I thought and reflected upon it, then put it aside and moved on. As such it would have been a tragic path for me. Quite obviously you did not. And while I'm not in your head, based on what you've written here and your blog, it was the only option for you. Regarding cost benefit analysis, only you know for certain, but unless one is completely impulse driven, we all do cost benefit analysis when considering alternatives and make decisions. About pretty much everything.
I actually appreciate your direct style of communication. I don't care what anyone thinks about my cd activities except my wife, and haven't revealed much here about what I like to do. as such I wasn't personally offended by anything you wrote. Now for the however: Regardless of intent, imho, some of your posts do come across as dismissive of CD's. I'm not going to go back and parse and quote specific posts, but it's the general flavor I come away with. I believe you that it's not your intent, other than regarding specific behaviors or actions you find offensive. Like I wrote above, you seem direct in your communication style and I think if you were actually dismissive of cd's, you would say so. But sometimes it comes across that way, at least to me.
True in some ways, not true in a lot more. For one, my "equipment" has an expiration date, still being negotiated due to the practicalities of its replacement procedure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
Beyond that, HRT is a hell of a thing. I would not argue with anybody as to what anatomical bits currently live down there, but they are completely different than they used to be. They work differently, insofar as from a male perspective, they don't really work. The "main event" is about 25% of what it used to be, and their little pals are closer to 1/8th. I don't own a vagina yet, but I don't really have very functional male genitalia either. Peeing standing up would be pretty difficult/messy, if I had any inclination to try. I don't tuck, and I went running in thin leggings today.
There's a whole new realm of experiences though, and I don't miss any of the old functionality.
I think at some point we are going to have to agree to disagree, or something like that. But, regardless of our differences, or not differences but we think they are, or don't think they are but they are. ah hell, I don't get it.... Now I get it, that I don't get it lol. IMO-------- Tolerate, to tolerate, tolerating..... Someone is or does something that I personally would not do, do not believe is right.... errrr for me. So, I could choose to totally take this person out of my life..... Or, maybe I work with them. Maybe I am a child of them, or a parent of them, or a brother or sister, or in law, or step..... I could still choose to take them out of my life, but is that really the best course of action? Or perhaps I could just tolerate that which I do not like, or believe in, and enjoy the all the rest of them.
Zooey I'm not knocking you for having one of those things at all and that is totally your choice I wish mine wasn't there either.
We are different in many ways but not all that different LOL
Its all good I harbor no animosity towards anyone for who they are.
How could you possibly criticize crossdressers and tell them how to gain the support of their loved ones with any credibility or understanding? You are neither a crossdresser or a spouse or girlfriend involved with a crossdresser. Why do you have "problems" with crossdresser's dreams and fantasies, even if off-target in your opinion, and you certainly are opinionated. Your anger is apparent and you vent - on us, crossdressers. Instead of continuing to attack crossdressers, and instead of continuing to display your anger attacking and trying to invalidate everyone's opinion, can't you share sentiments which might be helpful to others? You are being hypocritical when you attack others for being offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive and in so doing, are offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
I'm curious - why did you respond to/quote that particular post again? You'd actually already responded to it on page 1 of this thread.
At any rate... I'm not angry. If you think this is me angry then I sincerely hope I never actually get angry here. You certainly do seem angry, or at least really agitated, and I'm sorry for my part in that.
As I've said many times in this thread, I don't have problems with CDs having their dreams and fantasies. I don't really care for most of them, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with you having them. I have a problem, or at least think it's inappropriate, when CDs try to equate those dreams and fantasies with the actual experiences of women.
I'm not going to get any deeper into this stuff again in this thread, because I feel like I've already stated my case well enough and at this point you either get what I'm trying to say or you don't. Perhaps another time, in another thread... Maybe I'll start one.
I think when it comes to the different aspects of gender variance, the tolerance issue comes into play when there is a feeling of being marginalized. I think all sides are guilty of this, although I think most of us are not necessarily intending to do so. It may be because of blissful ignorance, or lack of knowledge when we are seeking it, or who knows why, but I think the problems and negative emotions hit when we do feel this feeling of being marginalized.
I can see where someone who is TS and going through preparations to transition, social transition.... going through issues with their partners and other family members, and along comes a CDer who proclaims that they are just the same BUT, their circumstance prevents them from doing so, or worse, that they will say something like, I love my wife too much to transition and gutting it out.... YIKES, because I can see right there how that is going to make someone who is going through all of what they are feel marginalized. On the same token though, not ALL of us who are not TS are simply dudes in a dress, getting our jollies from wearing panties to bed, or prancing around in 5 inch heels or whatever. We too have our own gender issues, and it is powerful enough that we buck society and have most of the world against us. I am not in any way saying it equates. I am just saying it is powerful enough to make us go against the grain and take a lot difficulty in itself.
Zooey,
I do sympathise with Heatherdress's comments, I have had your some of your harsh comments, but that's history now .
I feel the thing you fail to understand is having all this hit when you're later in life, been married forty years and have children and grandchildren to consider, that' s quite a loss to consider and walk away from, I chose to stay as I am because I think more of them than myself . Please don't give me if I really wanted to be a woman all that wouldn't stand in my way , I also know what it's like to have something tear me apart inside, but I have to accept that total happiness won't be found in going down the transition road. You make that abundantly clear in the way you write your replies as do so many others in the TS section, but I do object to the impression you give that JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .
First of all, I just want to say that I'm talking directly to Teresa. Nobody else, including heatherdress. Many of you have disagreed with me, and that's totally fine. IMO, the vast majority of you were generally respectful about the way you talked about your issues with what I have to say, and I hope you know that I tried to do the same in return.
Second, if you wanted to see me angry... Good work, Teresa. NOW I'm angry.
Oh, I'm soooo sorry... You're right. I have no idea what such a loss would be like, and - oh! - we're totally the same but you just have your priorities right... I guess my priorities were wrong! THANK YOU, that clears up so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
I transitioned at 35, and all I had to deal with was...
- Destroying a loving relationship of 10 years with a partner I could have easily spent the rest of my life with
- Sending my mom into a deep depression and crippling our relationship, to where it's only gotten to the point where we can have "mostly respectful" conversations after 1.5 years
- Causing my dad to spend countless nights questioning what he did wrong, in spite of his best efforts at support for me
- Sending my brother, who was already dealing with severe depression, into an even deeper depression for months
- Losing 3/4 of my extended family in an instant
- Putting my long-term career growth in jeopardy
- Reducing the chances of finding another loving, respectful, and accepting partner - yes, even in the SF bay area - exponentially
- Undergoing hours and hours and hours and hours of excruciatingly painful procedures
- ...and more!
I'm just getting started. Should I go on? Probably not necessary. You know what? It was all worth it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. BTW, I've had it EASY. I'm extraordinarily thankful that suicide doesn't appear on my list. It appears on a lot of our lists.
You do not understand. If you understood, you would not write what you wrote. You would not play the, "Oh, but you don't know how hard it would be for me" card, or the "Oh, but I love the people in my life so much, and just couldn't possibly" card, or the dozens of other versions that i've seen here.
It's BS. Unmitigated BS.
I loved the people in my life that I lost. A lot. Truly, madly, deeply. When you say what you said, you accuse me of not understanding love the way you do, and you can forget about that. I've read your neverending saga - people living in extra-brittle glass houses would be advised not to throw stones.
"Total happiness" is a fantasy. "Total misery" is a reality, that fortunately in my case was addressable, and I did what I had to do in order to fix it. I had and have what most would consider a good life, but I wasn't really living it before, and so it was terrible even when I didn't realize just how cold and shut off from the world I actually was. I am actually happy now, and I'm finally living my life.
It was not a choice, and if you understood, you would respect that. If you were in my shoes, it wouldn't have been a choice for you either. I'm thrilled for you that you have a choice. I think a lot of us who transition wish we'd had a choice.
You do not understand. I'm not saying your life is all sunshine and lollipops, but holy sweet god damn, you need to check yourself.
And with that, I'm well and truly done with this. Best of luck.
Zooey,
You make your point, I could have also had a list like yours , how much damage might have been done or who knows could still be done if I took that option. Your anger is not meant for me but obviously bottled up inside and can't vent with anyone else but members of the forum. I'm twice your age, of course I have to get my priorities right , you had a different decision to make than mine and you thought you got your priorities right. Like I've said before whatever we chose to do has to be a compromise,the point is if you feel you've got it wrong don't take it out on others. Show us how happy you are with going that route rather than venting on us for thinking we're gutless Cders !!
As I also said many of us do understand the implications of transition we're not oblivious to it
No doubt that IS difficult. Then again, so is living for 67 years in a culture where many don't see me as another human being or 43 years in a profession where very few look like me. We're both dealing with factors that we cannot change. That is the reality we live with every day. As I've said here many times, we are ALL struggling with SOMETHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigella
Personally, I have had many experiences that a lot of people here have not had. This allows me a different perspective on events and thoughts here. On occasion I've mentioned the source of my perspectives and often people choose to discount it. It's funny that they can't argue a given point, they just seem to want to discount what I've said. So, a quick recap is this:
- 20 years involvement with corporate employee resource groups (sometimes known as diversity groups or employee affinity groups)
- Active member of the LGBT group for 12 years
- 6 years expatriate experience in Taiwan
- In my career of 43 years, I worked with people from 18 different countries
- Functions include individual contributor, project leadership and supervision
- Several terms as a Presbyterian church Trustee
- father of 2 grown children from 1st marriage
- Grandfather of 2
- Married to 2nd wife who knows all about DeeAnn
- Bisexual identity from ~2000
- Transgender identity from ~2014
- Came out to 200+ people in October of 2015 including my daughter and son, 8 close friends and my then department manager
- Retired 4 months ago
- Getting started with one of the transgender groups in my new hometown and looking to see where I can contribute
Anyway, I say all this to point up that my journey probably looks a lot different from most. While I do claim some degree of dysphoria, I now realize that it has been lurking in the background for a LONG time. But, it isn't sufficient to warrant transition and appears to be stable and non-fluid. The time that I am able to spend as DeeAnn seems to be enough to maintain the balance.
Further, claiming bisexual and transgender identities puts me in sort of a unique position. From the middle, I can see both ends. The unfortunate thing is that you get denials of existence from both of the extremities. They can't seem to accept that you're neither This nor That; you encompass both.
So, there are some things about the transsexual community that do not make sense to me. When I've brought this up, it tends to be not received well (reference the discounting mentioned above).
- I've asked why is there so little alignment with the rest of the community by the transsexual part. Basically, is there no way to rally around common interests? The response is that there is essentially no common ground and it would compromise (steal) their identity as trans women. But (the voice of personal experience), the success of activism is rooted in Strength Of Numbers. It's easy to drown out a few voices, but it's much harder when there are MANY. Evidently that's not compelling enough. Anyway, I'm not seeing how it would steal one's identity. Reveal perhaps, but not steal.
- From observation and from people I know, transition is simply a Very Difficult Process and in terms of time, an extended one. It chews through personal and financial resources, relationships, goodwill and mental slack, indiscriminately. Obviously it is a distinctly non-trivial path. It is understandable why folks choose to try to fit within the confines of a regular life in the aftermath. But, what I can't understand is how they expect things to get better and who they think will pick up the banner. How would you expect someone to fight for you if you are not willing to fight yourself? Are you really willing to let this rash of Bathroom Bills go? Remember that even if you have fully transitioned, if you are from Idaho, Kansas, Ohio or Tennessee, you CANNOT change the gender marker on your Birth Certificate. Until laws change, if they ever will, you are screwed.
DeeAnn
Teresa just because you are twice her age doesn't make you right and her wrong.
I do think her anger was pointed at you because you popped off in a very arrogant way.
I will leave it at that and back out of this discussion.
My father never wanted sons, my mom said, before she died yrs ago. My alcoholic, anti social father, grudgingly, stayed with my mom, who had almos nothing in common with him. She said she married him out of pity. he "tolerated": his sons, and especially me, the last born, "mistake". I started to have Cd ideas at a young age, and at age 13, or 14, raided my sister and moms clothes. I think my dad not liking sons, had something to do with it. he spoiled my sister. For the past six years, I have been forced to take care of my father, even though he always resented me being born. I have hated having to leave my business, friends, and life near Seattle, to move to redneck area to return to the hellish family i escaped from in 1981. I cannot say i accept my dad or siblings, or being born into such extreme dysfunction. "Tolerance" is about the best i, and other members of my toxic "fusion" family do. There is no real love, or acceptance much, if at all. I have gone to 12 step groups off and on for 31 years, prayed, struggled, .seen therapists, counselors, cried, and died a thousand deaths, having to care for my bitter father, and cruel siblings, who still want the worst for me. Tolerance has not been at all easy, and i hope like hell, i can scrape enough funds to actually move further away from them, after he dies, and cut off ties. They ruined my life, but toleratance is all i can say i ahave, and a small acceptance, but may life has been fouled up, and years taken off my life, from the emotional hell for so long. I think , with flawed human nature, as natual hostility for others, tolerance for neighbors, other drivers, work mates, so much indifference and disagreement, in the human realm, it amazes me, that everyone is not at each other's throats more! I am amazed there still is as much tolerance on this site, and everywhere else there are people. Maybe that is why pets are so popular, and so many of us have pets, and not SOs or spouses. Life is bloody hard, and tolerance sometimes is the best any of us can do.
That's why you are not the same, obviously you will never understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teresa
Nothing to do with Zooey being truly hurt that you just completely dismissed the pain she was in to make such a severe change and risk everything she has achieved up till that point.
No it's far easier to just think of her as arrogant and elitist. If anyone ever wonders why we distance ourselves from non-transitioned speak to Teresa.
No wonder the suicide rate is so high, far kinder to be found dead from say depression than watch your family and financial income torn to shreds only for the rest of the 'Community' to dismiss it as 'Priorities' as in selfish.
"Well wifey I'm just the SAME as that terribly selfish TS person except I would never do that to you, my love is more pure, I have my priorities right"!
Thankfully there are the likes of Gendermutt and others here trying hard to understand and I'm grateful for that even if it does sometimes look like we are at loggerheads.
First off GM reread what you wrote, your attitude to CDers that aren't suffering identity issues is derogatory. You probably didn't mean it like that? But you will have offended someone and right there your attitude is arrogant and above those people (which are the vast majority).Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
'Prancing around and whatever' shows a dismissive attitude.
You want to be taken seriously but in so doing have distanced yourself from another subsect of the community as if they are beneath you. I just wanted to highlight how easily it's done.
It's certainly powerful enough which is why I'm here chatting away and mulling over concepts with you lot. If I didn't think we had connections I wouldn't bother. You don't see me in Panty threads because I don't understand or relate to that way of life.
All I ask is to stop trying to bundle us all together as the same, I'm not adverse to being called Transgender but medically I'm TS and the difference is profound if at times subtle. Perhaps you too are TS but unless you transition you won't quite get that last piece of the puzzle.
That last piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily make a good picture at the end though.
My one hope here is for those of you struggling with identity or dysphoria not to feel somehow lesser because transition isn't part of your path.
Going back to the tower analogy.
Perhaps it is you in the penthouse and me on the roof, yes I can now see the Sky but it's cold up here and wet. I maybe one step higher but where you are might be the best place to be. Equally two levels below is someone that hates heights they're also happy with where they are as they feel safer with far more manageable costs than you penthouse lot!
There is no better or worse than, there is only difference :)
At least to me.
Dee-Anne
Unfortunately you're a bit of a minority in what you do, the vast majority of the Trans community are not visible. You are like the tip of the iceberg with the masses in the closet and while they remain hidden your idea doesn't really work...yet.
I totally get what you are saying about rights etc and I'm guilty of that. But I'm just not that person I don't want to be dual anything or trans at all, I now live my life as a very plain nothing special woman and that feels natural to me and it's what I have fought hard to be.
I am turning my back and selling out on the Trans community I know that, but doing what you and PaulaQ do, I can't do that it's just not in me and I certainly haven't got the confidence to stand up and talk on anyone's behalf.
Sometimes you make false assumptions that rub me up the wrong way, but I do respect your experience and admire what you are trying to achieve.