I was once pushed in that direction by foreign doctors who feels if you crossdress you should be on hormones and especially antiandrogens
It takes a lot of work to undo antiandrogens.
The doctor "does not want you to be gay".
Most Cross dressers are straight men and straight married men is what is not understood. Kids experiment.
.
This thread is a perfect example of how one can use statistics to prove virtually anything that they want to, just by putting the things they want into the post, and avoiding others. Wow, what a mess.
I agree. Statistics can be manipulated to "prove" anything.
This thread is also an example of how many folks will put little insults into their posts to try to make themselves seem better or smarter while making their opponents appear stupid. Things like "Look it up. It only took me ten seconds." I would like to think we are better than that, but clearly we aren't.
Just another case where the primary person arguing their case failed to provide burden of proof, which unleashed a homework assignment for many here to go gather the real facts and understand, breakdown what the data really meant.
When I detect vague information and ambiguity........ I will call you out, my thoughts are the posters need to do a better job presenting their outlandish cases or expect a barrage of questions from the audience
That's an example of what I mentioned above. The word "outlandish". Same for the "I will call you out". We don't all think alike even though we are all here because we are crossdressers.
Go back and read where statistics can be used to try to prove any point of view. It's true.
I think the OP raises an interesting question. It is well-known that no medical diagnostic is perfect. There are always false positives (the condition is tested to be present when in fact it is not) and false negatives (the condition is tested to be absent when it is actually present). Generally, if you decrease the false negatives, you increase the false positives, and if you decrease the false positives, you increase the false negatives. Usually, initial medical tests for serious conditions are calibrated so that false positives are high and false negatives are low; you want to catch as many of the real cases as possible, even if it means worrying many patients needlessly. My (unprofessional) understanding is that gender dysphoria diagnosis tends to do the opposite, aiming for high false negatives and low false positives. The long process and high threshold means most people who transition will be doing the right thing, but there will always be some false positives. Note, the false positives will not be coerced; it will be their own choice but they might be temporarily confused and end up taking the wrong path for them. As more people begin to go through the process, the total number of false positives will also rise.
As transitioning becomes more socially acceptable, I can also see how some parents may mistakenly think their child has gender dysphoria, just because they aren't 100% cisgender. There may also be a few parents who, in order to show how liberal and open-minded they are, act too gung-ho about having a possibly transgender child. However, I expect these numbers to be fairly low.
If we think back to my original point this all furthers what I've been saying in the end. We also have to consider some obvious issues with the statistics presented.
Concerning the statistics first, what is out, why aren't they out, how many are sure they are even transgender or actually aware, how many weren't polled, how many are transgender but under the radar, do alternative identities like non conforming affect results, how many will go on to be out, how many will not, and how many simply did not admit it. The 3000 number was used in an attempt to allow you all to understand that approximately 60 openly transgender or potentially transgender students at one school is actually a realistic number, because it is. I was told this number 2 months ago, this whole social evolution is happening very quickly remember, statistics from a year ago or however long are already incorrect as the number is rising quite rapidly and will continue to do so for some time.
What has been my point, and the topic of this thread is the clear potential for confusion and misdiagnosis, especially due to external influences, pressure and encouragement. I also stress to possibility of unneeded or disproportionate countermeasures in dealing with anyone's issues related to gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, depression, sexual orientation and all other things related, you all know what I'm talking about I'm sure. That is a risk that I, and you, are well aware of, it is a caution that is close to me personally. We all know coercion is happening to some degree, how many of those coerced or convinced will go on to transition is unknown. This is something I've been trying to describe, this is an issue to me, there are many students who believe they are or identify as transgender, but few of are out, few are beginning to transition. The transgender push has created excess confusion, excess problems for young people, it solves issues for a few while troubling too many others. Why are there 60 children who may or may not fit into the transgender category at a single school.
I have to explain, to Marcelle as well in particular that I take this all seriously, it is a serious health issue. I'm not giving into grand conspiracies or alarmism, I just want people to think about and consider the obvious issues I'm trying to point out, we cannot solve the issues of those that are transgender and in need intervention while disregarding those left in the wake. It can ruin peoples lives, or their childhoods atleast. Everyone needs to take care with this subject, this issue as you all know.
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Do I think young people, or crossdressers today and in the future will be incorrectly encouraged to transition? Yes.
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I want to add I was pointing out that I highly disliked the propagation and glorification of being transgender or the transgender issue. It should not be presented as good or bad, people should be educated but not influenced so that it can be allowed normalcy and respect. Extra care should be taken with the minds of children and young people, as many grow up volatile and confused. I understand people want to jump in and help these people, I do too, but it has to be gone about properly. Sadly we're off to a start I don't fully approve of.
A complex subject and I really cannot contribute but as a scientist by training I have to put my oar in the water about an often repeated statement here that statistics can somehow be twisted to support the most bizarre of hypotheses. Indeed there are bad data and any statistical analysis based on bad data is rubbish. There are bad statisticians or those who incorrectly manipulate the data but STATISTICS is not a black magic art. There are sensible tests to show if correlations etc. are correct or imperfect. Besides the survey that is referenced here is simply that, a survey. Assuming that the respondents answered correctly and honestly, the so-called statistical analysis is rather simple and straightforward mathematics.
As to the issue. Yes it probably is a problem but is it a really large problem and how does it compare with the magnitude of misery and suffering of those who are forced to feel badly or be bullied about their gender feelings?
One can easily manipulate the results by selecting the people that participate in the survey. Next, the survey can be manipulated by the way the questions are phrased. And in a case like this, how can one be sure that everyone taking the survey is using the same definitions?Quote:
Originally Posted by CONSUELO
I don't think these "surveys" prove anything.
No, it's not, or at least not based on this survey. From the study overview...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
The 32 students who are at least semi-openly trans are distributed amongst 91 schools. That means one in three schools has one openly trans student. There are 96 students who said they consider themselves trans, whether they're out of not. That means there is roughly one trans student per school surveyed, the large majority of which are not out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Study Overview, Pg. 8
I'm generally not posting here lately, but I will gladly sit here and continue to point out these kinds of errors all day long.
Can you point to where this is happening and having a negative impact on peoples lives?Quote:
What has been my point, and the topic of this thread is the clear potential for confusion and misdiagnosis, especially due to external influences, pressure and encouragement.
Should kids not be encouraged to be themselves and conform to others ideas of what their gender should be?
There are a lot of gender variant youth these days, I think it is great. few are ts though. Those that are and do transition early need to be persistent and consistent in their gender identity for transition to be supported medically though.
You make it sound like some great medical emergency or epidemic or something. Something bad happening. BS
Encouraged to transition, or not discouraged to transition? Many of us here today, especially those who are TS and have suffered so greatly are here, and have had such a difficult time with ourselves, dealing with ourselves, going through therapy, sometimes leading to substance abuse issues, failed relationships etc etc etc. TS women often tried to be the man their physical body was, and society expects them to be, more or less demands them to be. CDers, on a minor level go through expectations of being all male/masculine 100% of the time.
Now today there is the beginnings of acceptance. Now today, kids will grow up who are transgender and not hate themselves, or live a lie of themselves. They will be able to quicker identify that they are transgender, rather than finally succumb to it after sometimes several decades. And, with a more accepting society, make whatever necessary changes to fit their identity. I see nothing wrong with the idea of transgender kids being encouraged to live life as they identify. Transition shouldn't be made into some fantasy good thing, or easy.... but as teenagers or perhaps people in their 20's, still significantly easier than unraveling 20 or more years of adult life, which often includes steady long term employment, a spouse, children. Let people who identify as the opposite gender of their birth gender have more of their life properly aligned, and experience life without the confusion, the pain and agony, so many have endured trying to be something they simply cannot be. Boys and girls who are happy being boys and girls will not be persuaded to transition. Crossdressing kids I believe in a more accepting society will not feel a need to transition either, in fact, they may be less confused about a need to transition since people are more ok with their gender expression, their identity will not be challenged. So, for those who truly identify as the opposite of their birth, they should be encouraged to live their life as is best for them, transitioning to whatever extent they feel will help them.
If a four year old boy tells his family that he is a girl, should the family accept that and buy him dresses or should the family try to explain to the boy that he is not a girl, but a boy? How about six years old? Ten years old?
At what age is a child really capable of understanding the difference, what he really is, and the difficulties he (she) will face in life as a transsexual?
Personally, I think it's incompetent parenting to not make a serious attempt to educate the child and encourage him/her to live life as it was intended to be. This might mean getting professional help.
I think that many kids have a hard time growing up. But if a kid that is gender variant or even TS, they should have proper therapy in schools and parents of these kids know them best. This is why there are so many new kids coming out. But a few of them are TS and even though there may be support for them which would be great, but I think the process should wait until they are a bit older to start the process. Heck when I was young, I was very confused and as a gender fluid person with fem hormones I might have been pushed towards that. But I grew up and married, got though life and I still think I would have chosen this life I have now.
i.e. "Fit into the box society made for you" Well that would work well for for geeks and jocks, yes? Bobby, why don't you play football, all the other boys do. It's what boys do...go, play in the dirt. Quit playing the piano or painting. Boys don't do that. I think you encourage children to be who they are beyond social constructs. Explaining to Bobby that while he grows up loving arts he will be bullied by the sports guys doesn't really work, it just makes Bobby feel inferior.
Zooey, you're calling me a liar. They didn't survey everyone, and I pointed out reasons why we cannot hold on to those statistics too tightly. You actually think only one in three schools has only one openly trans student, the high school I went to had at least two openly trans people and one that was under the radar that we were partially aware of while I was in my final year, that doesn't include me. One trans person per school surveyed, you don't honestly believe that do you? How many people will figure it out a few years later or after high school.
Arbon. You are asking me how that could have an impact on someone's life? Think about it. Often while transitioning someone might spend years in recluse, only later realizing it was not right for them, that's a pretty good example. I encourage people to be themselves, but learning how to conform has many rewards in life, I'd encourage anyone to find their balance. I think suicidal people are medical emergencies, overall the issue is not an epidemic or a huge emergency but systems and measures need to, and are being put in place due to the growing need for them. Your interpretation of what I'm saying is not up to me.
Gendermutt, they should be neither encouraged or discouraged in my opinion. If it is necessary then so be it, they can begin the process after they are properly reviewed.
Why therapy and what process exactly should they wait for? And who would have been pushing you to transition today?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
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What I interpret you saying is a bunch of BSQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
KrisQuote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
Just to clarify ... Are you saying that if my child is suffering from GD then I should just tell them to suck it up and be the gender they were intended to be ?
I am not being a weisenheimer here ... just trying to clarify the comment.
As per OP. Numbers aside. Statistics as to how many transkids per school aside. The gist of the question as stated above. There are some words that I see that we all don't agree on in that. How young is young? What is transition? On these boards we make it a point that one can be Transsexual and do nothing more than say they are all the way to GRS. So it is a wide area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paula_56
This is a large opinion question. It is a broad question. It is an emotional question. But let's focus on the question.
Needless to say, this thread certainly turned into a bitchfest...
And this post is clearly aimed at me, why don't you actually spell out who you are talking to, instead of throwing snide comments like a child... grow up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
Actually, no you won't...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
Uhm, I never actually said anything of the sort, I quoted what YOU said and corrected your math... you said 38.4% in your post from the study and then you said it makes no sense... perhaps you should stop arguing facts and figures with me and concentrate on what you're actually posting. Anyway, I digress... I really don't give a shit about it, that isn't the point why I defended Alexa...Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
So some of you don't like the way Alexa has stated LBGT is toxic... well let me take you back a few years, you know, when you self loathed, was full of hatred, no one to turn to etc.. I'm pretty sure those who are offended by her tone have not had a life full of rainbows and sodding unicorns, all sweetness and light.... if you have, then I call that :BS: I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of self loathing, hateful, even suicidal posts in the TS section, but hey... you all must be over it now, so let's all jump on someone that might just need some guidance....
Want to know why I jumped in? and believe me, it's not often I have the time to post, I saw a group of hateful women ganging up on another member for posting something about their country... and took her to task on it... without researching anything... I found it disgusting behaviour, absolutely disgraceful! It really didn't matter to me what she was posting, it doesn't matter, it's not important, what is important is this forum is for SUPPORT, you know, that thing you've all been getting here for years...
I'd actually like to know why some of you did that, what was the point of it, did you enjoy chewing her up and spitting her out? make you feel good eh? imagine that was someone on the street being ganged up on, beaten... would you also lay into that person, or would you stop and help?
And I don't want to hear anymore bloody statistics, or percentages, or whatever... I just want to know why some of you felt the need to lash out.
There are 1,400,000 (1.4 Million) transgender folks in the USA alone and the number is doubling accord to an adult website article.
They have to come from somewhere.
Califirnia,new york have some of the most and they are more tolerable.
About 1% of the population.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...ica-study-says
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01...opulation.html
Although I'm sorry for my tone - I apologized about that in a post I subsequently deleted. I responded as I did because I have dealt with a large number of people online and in person this year who express concern that transgender youth are being encouraged to transition improperly - that they will change their minds. I reacted to Alexa harshly, because it's been quite a fight here in Texas - our Governor and Lt. Governor are putting transgender people in the cross hairs and railing against trans youth being given basic rights like gender appropriate bathroom access in schools. Since Alexa was new, anonymous, and posting claims that really DO NOT stand up in any way, and were contrary to the direct experience I have dealing with transgender youth and parents (I am an activist here in Texas, so I have direct experience in these matters), I incorrectly assumed that she might be the typical "anti-trans concern troll" that I've seen so often this past year. I apologize for my tone, but stand behind my analysis. I am sincere - I am very sorry Alexa, I was very confrontational, and didn't handle things in a manner that was nice at all. I regret doing that. That said, I can't agree with your conclusions, and so about the best I can hope for is to agree to disagree on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
Hi Tamara
Not sure if I am included in the group but here goes ...
The individual indicated that children are being coerced to transition and provided numbers. I personally did not care about the numbers a they are meaningless without context. I wanted her to clarify what supports that assertion beyond numbers. Who is implicit, schools, parents, doctors?
Alexa did not post looking for support because she is going through a rough patch. She believes in her heart of hearts that trans folk should just keep a low key, not make a fuss and take things as they come irrespective of what garbage gets slung at them. She has made the clear in other posts "offering us folk who transition a reality check about which bathroom we should use". That is her opinion and she is welcome to it . . . no harm no foul and her and I have been over this in various PMs and neither is going to change their minds. However, if she wants to post a comment and state something as outlandish as "coercion of minors to transition is a national epidemic" or that somehow transitioning is being glorified and people who do so are being treated like heroes (hmmm . . . must have missed that parade) then she should be able to provide some concrete evidence to the fact. Saying 3, 30, 3000 or 3,000,000 school children identify as TG does not imply in any manner that "coercion is a national epidemic" as numbers without context are meaningless.
Not arguing, not beating her up just asking for facts to support her point of view.
Cheers
Marcelle
One more small thing - because I don't feel I explained
quite enough.Quote:
I just want to know why some of you felt the need to lash out.
I've had many conversations with trans youth and their parents in my area. I know what they go through - it's a living hell for many of them. Hearing that they are being coddled and encouraged to transition because of overly positive media coverage made me, frankly furious. Perhaps this really is the case in Auckland New Zealand, and they are doing just crazy stuff. But I know this is the opposite of what's happening here in Texas, and it made me very angry. Couple that with seemingly poor use of statistics, and I overreacted. Again, I am sorry for the way I said things to Alexa, and for some of the things I said to her. I was out of line. However, I stand by my analysis of the data that I provided that was the basis of her claims and the article you provided Tamara, and I make no apologies for that. I just wish I'd said it better. For other members who may have felt disrespected by what I said, or the way I said it, then I am very sorry for the words I used. I will do better.
Because she makes statement like thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
Based on what? What does she really know about it. Just an opinion based on nothing but their own thoughts.Quote:
The transgender push has created excess confusion, excess problems for young people, it solves issues for a few while troubling too many others.
I'm not sure if the process is like this in New Zealand, but the process for getting HRT as a child in Australia sounds pretty difficult:
https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem...PkKG?play=true
Is it significantly easier in Auckland, for example, than in Australia? (I realize they may be in the same part of the world, but they are different nations with differing laws.)
edit: Sorry, here's another one:
Transgender teenagers 'risking lives' buying hormones on black market
I understand why some depart this site, and never return, as well as other sites.
It may be a little easier today but it's still a lot of work and dedication and a big decision. To make it an informed decision we need to know who we are and what we want to do. I always wanted to be a female secret agent, inspired by movies and shows in the 1960's. I more or less became a spy albeit as a male. I had every intention to get as they used to call it a "sex change" after my time in the service but then things changed and I met my future wife and decided to give the "guy thing" a chance. Now I realize I don't need to transition to be myself and I enjoy ALL of my feelings. I don't regret a thing. The thing is we never HAVE to be this or that, just ourselves.:battingeyelashes::)
I don't think anybody will be pushed into transition that does not really want to. I have wanted to be a girl since around age five. I was able to suppress it but the need grew stronger as I got older. They will know if they need to do this or not. I would give everything I own to be able to go back and transition at an early age. I Knew what I wanted then as I know what I want today. I am in the process of transitioning now and I am over 50. I am becoming extremely discouraged at my results so far appearance wise. I am happy that today's youth have all this available to them. At the same time I get depressed and cry when I read threads like this at what could have been because that should have been me. This will save them from turning out like me. So it is a good thing.
Kate has a point in sharing what Kate went through, including Viet Nam combat hell. Learning to be ourselves, regardless of what we are wearing.
Alexa did not come here looking for support; she came here with an agenda of her own posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara Croft
The ladies here have always supported anyone who asked for support provided it was a reasonable request and they were not being trolled
But coming here and bashing the ENTIRE LGBT community of the USA with all the pain, loss of life (Orlando), legal battles, discrimination, etc we have been through.............really ...........and for Alexa to call the entire LGBT community toxic and poisonous is uncalled for and should not be condoned on this forum as acceptable behavior.
It should be a pre requisite to at the very least to be a LGBT friendly ally just to join. (No Discrimination Allowed)
The LGBT movement should be seen as a positive and necessary movement, and to take this one step further I am telling you every single person on this forum has benefited from the LGBT movement here in the USA in some form or fashion.
While the LGBT community has certainly had it's up and downs and even infighting against T’s and CD’s over the years in the US, I still feel we are stronger today.
The real thing here is Alexa made no case for why the New Zealand LGBT community is poisonous and toxic and is a state of chaos. However she did point her reply directly to me knowing that I live in Texas in a state that has done everything under the sun possible to take away LGBT rights. If you do not believe me do some research, it won’t take long probably less than 10 seconds.
Not here to hurt feeling’s but I am not going to take fictional posts as being factual.
OK, this is a pretty startling quote - this is one of the things that set me off - the number of kids and the idea they'd be pushed seemed, well fishy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
So now we get internet desistence and detransition myths. These have been debunked in numerous places - I spoke from firsthand experience, I know relatively few detransitioners, other than those who fail to launch because of lack of resources. I know lots of trans people, and I know people personally who've detransitioned. It happens. This statement also seemed rather unlikely to me, particularly supported by "many people I'm aware of through the internet."Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
If this is really true, and I must confess, I have my doubts, then I'll be immigrating to New Zealand. I'm sorry, but this is a fairly inflammatory statement, and it angered a great many of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
This is an extremely prejudiced statement. If we are to allow talk of the LGBT movement as psychotic, toxic, and poisonous, then I am not sure how supportive this forum can really be. These are the kinds of messages I grew up with, and I found them to be exceedingly harmful during my life. I hear them now from people who are local who are vehemently anti-LGBT. Anyway, this statement alone made me furious. I felt it needed a strong rebuttal, which I provided. If we are going to allow outright hate speech here, then I am not sure what purpose can actually be served by anyone being here. I'm sorry to say it so plainly, but that's how it seems to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
This one statement is what I think their entire series of posts is really about. I feel really badly for them - having this much internalized self-hatred is not healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
Look, I can find local people right here in Texas who'll say the same things about transgender kids as Alexa's nurse and dentist. They are also the people who want to deny any ability for transgender kids to transition in school, making statements like "you'll let grown men shower with your 8 year old daughter!" I wish I was making that up - it's mind boggling that anyone would be perverse enough to even think of stuff like that, but I spent a big part of my spring dealing with statements more or less of this type. We grow 'em dumb here in Texas, what can I say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexa CD
I don't know how things are in Auckland, but here in Texas, who's trans and who isn't is fairly guarded information by the schools, at least until it becomes obvious. So the parents of the kids who are considering transition probably have a better idea of the numbers than just random people who have kids in the school. Although at a certain level, they'll know about some of the trans kids as well. Anyway, we don't have any idea about the credibility of the people she quotes, but given some of the other statements I quoted above, do you blame me for being skeptical?
So - inflammatory anti-lgbt rhetoric, claims about trans youth that are more or less identical to the ones I've dealt with all spring from people who want to STOP trans youth from transition, numbers that appear to be wildly, crazily exaggerated. No kidding we landed on her with both feet.
while I think the premise of the thread was good, it has become way to adversarial. I am closing it. If any other staff wants to reopen they may but I am getting a headache
I know this thread is closed, but I'm going to address these quotes and do feel free to PM me to continue this discussion. However, this ganging up mentality is going to stop, you are all here for support, it doesn't matter what you or I believe, everyone is entitled to it!
That's called freedom of speech, which is not against the law, nor does it break any rules of this board. If a member cannot have their own opinion and thoughts just because you don't agree with them, then that's a very sad day for everyone isn't it.. she isn't a sheep, she follows her own life and doesn't have to conform to the way you think or believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
Really? you read her introduction did you? you've messaged her and spoken to her? you live her life now do you? Would you like to give her your agenda for being here so she knows how to behave like you? no? I didn't think so... She has her own agenda, she is in a vulnerable place, she needs guidance and support, she is young, outspoken and not afraid to voice an opinion and that's a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauri K
She isn't from the USA (for the second time) and that's not the first time I've seen people talk about the LGBT being toxic etc... you think that's a new thing? you are sadly mistaken. How many members have joined here saying they hate their life, they hate what they are and wish they were dead... How many of out GG members have joined that hate the life they've been given with their TG partner? you don't know... you have no idea, it's not all rainbows and fairy tales for everyone, some people hate the whole thing and wish it would go away. As an Administrator of this board, I have read thousands of posts, you as a member probably have not so you wouldn't know the half of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauri K
I don't think so, you think we are going to turn people away that are in this life but aren't friendly to the LGBT, seriously? you and I both know that's :BS: and it's never going to happen. Me or the staff are not going to start removing members that don't conform to the norm... just isn't going to happen. If that were the case, half of the women that join would be removed... we aren't sheep, we are individuals that abide by the law, not by what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauri K
That's all I have to say, please feel free to PM me if you take issue with what I have said, but I don't want to hear anymore about statistics, I'm not interested, I just want this board to run nice and smoothly without members ganging up on other members for not being a sheep!!!