Is crossdressing dishonest?

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove

1. Dishonesty doesn't need victims. Even if you aren't hurting anyone with your dishonesty, it's still dishonest.

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True but then everyone is being dishonest to each other all the time since none of us display the real me, we all use public masks which can differ in character depending who we are speaking to. In reality the male Leah is being just as more dishonest by hiding away his feminine side. Leah would be living a lie if he did not crossdress.

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3. I personally don't understand how pretending to be someone you're not is being more honest. You may feel a connection with elements of being a woman, but you aren't one. Pretending to be *anything* that you arent is dishonest.

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We are all part masculine/part feminine but society does not care for anything inbetween. It is difficult to be an inbetween, much easier to pretend to be a woman so that everyone knows and understands what behavior is expected. If Leah is not a transsesxual then yes he is not being totally "honest" in emulating a woman, but nor is he being honest in emulating a man. You may desire to still think of him as a man but he never was and will never be.

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4. Something bothers me about what 'Leah' says. He says that he doesn't feel himself unless others treat him that way. I think it's sad that anyone needs attention from strangers in order to feel like themselves. I don't base who I am on what others think of me. The opinions of strangers don't mean one bit.

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Is that really true? Would you be happy to be known as the partner of a crossdresser? Will you happily walk hand in hand down a public street with Leah en femme?

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5. He mentioned that I think it's selfish you y'all want to experience the best things from each gender. The better way to say it is that I feel it's greedy. At least from what 'Leah' says about his own feelings. He's jealous that women get treated differently from men, so he wants to experience that, too. Greedy.

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If it is greedy of men to want that available to women , then it is greedy of women to want that available to men. Lets roll back all the advances of feminism so that women and men can have distinct and separate roles in society again. If you believe in equality then that means equality for all with no "but's" attached.

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I'm sort of afraid that after this post I might be banned from the boards. I just get this vibe that when I get the privelege to post, as a GG, that I don't have to right to question you guys or to not agree with what you think.

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The more you question then the more answers you will get, it shows you care enough to try to understand which is more than many SOs ever bother to do. As for agreement most crossdressers cannot agree among themselves what it all means since our personal experiences have different meanings. We are not a uniform group so ultimately you will need to listen and trust Leah alone as only she knows what her crossdressing actually means to her.

Satrana nailed it.

I should say that there I do believe crossdressing IS often deceptive, but it is not nessecarily dishonest. I'm not pretending to be Leah, I AM Leah. Just as I act one way with one friend and another way with another, Leah is a persona. Unlike most personae, however, she's not so integrated with D___ (my real name).

The deception occurs because I wish to pass as a woman, when I am not. Without getting into why, suffice it to say that i believe this is a necessary aspect of my crossdressing.

Greed is not an element for me. If any of the seven sins apply, it's envy. As Satrana said, was it greedy for feminists to demand "male" rights? There were those who believed back then as you do now: that mens and women's rights balanced out, and that women were overstepping by asking for what was not theirs.

My Crossdressing is not a social movement, but it is my attempt to gain what I am denied access to (and I DO believe this access is denied, even if not in the strictest terms).

We all face this challenge individually Leah. It's the right to express ourselves and feelings as being part of who we really are. We have to make the decision to either abdicate that right or take ownership of it. It's a tough call but mostly our true "sense of self" is at stake. It's hard for others to understand that sometimes, especially those we love.:happy: Sal

it's all about finding out who you really are. Every child experiments and explores the world as they discover themselves. What's dishonest is to tell them it's wrong to feel a certain way because it doesn't make a good war for the king.

Here is my 2 cents girl. By not xdressing, you are being dishonest to yourself. Not to other ppl. U have a right to express yourself and it falls under the category of freedom of speech. I'm sure others have the same opinion or something similar to what I just said.

:2c: IMHO, you're not being dishonest, on the contrary, you're being extremely honest in telling her who you are and where you stand on this. What could be more honest about that? And who among us anywhere doesn't have some activity or hobby that allows for a bit of an escape from reality? That's the point of most leisure activity, is it not?

As for augmenting, or being someone you're not, at the risk of being harsh, that's a dangerous argument for her to use. Afterall, if she sticks to that arguement, she shouldn't use makeup any more, she shouldn't ever color her hair, and she darn sure better not use a push-up, shove-out bra or colored stockings - all of that stuff certainly alters the natural appearance and makes you into someone who you really are not.

Just be careful, be honest with her, and don't hide things. If that can be done, there's no shame in this and nothing she should legitimately take offense at. Take care and God bless!
Randi :happy:

A lot of people have come on and said, 'well, then girls who wear make up is dishonest' and so forth.

Yes, it is. Just because everyone is dishonest to a degree doesn't mean that all dishonesty is okay. It's like saying, 'well everyone has lied at some point, so all lieing is okay, because everyone does it.'

The way I see it is, it's a personal decision for each individual of how much 'dishonesty' is too much. Each person has their own moral decision on that. For me, my morals say that presenting yourself as a genetic girl when you aren't goes past the acceptable amount of deception. Now, that might change at some point. I might grow to understand my boyfriend better and change my opinions. As of now, though, my own opinions point me to feel that that is too much deception.

There are degrees of deception. Makeup on a woman is deceptive, because it obscures and exaggerates. Makeup on a man may be potentially more deceptive because it does the same things, but with the added potential of making others confuse his sex.

So no, these two things are not the same but they are related. I do WANT people to think I am a woman when I go out, so I'm intentionally deceiving. I don't have a problem with this, because I do not believe I am comitting any serious harm. Anybody I am close to, I would want to know the truth, because that CAN cause harm.

There is a degree of moral ambiguity here, so I know that I must be mindful of how my actions impact others.

To Sobe and Leah,

I just hope the pair of you can come to a comprise and wish you all the best for the future :love:

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Originally Posted by Leah B

There are degrees of deception. Makeup on a woman is deceptive, because it obscures and exaggerates. Makeup on a man may be potentially more deceptive because it does the same things, but with the added potential of making others confuse his sex.

So no, these two things are not the same but they are related. I do WANT people to think I am a woman when I go out, so I'm intentionally deceiving. I don't have a problem with this, because I do not believe I am comitting any serious harm. Anybody I am close to, I would want to know the truth, because that CAN cause harm.

There is a degree of moral ambiguity here, so I know that I must be mindful of how my actions impact others.

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The other angle to this is just how deceptive you actually are....meaning very few of us can ever pull off passing as a woman close up, especially when we start speaking. Our deception only works at a distance.

If strangers are passing you in the street and believe you are a woman, so what? What does it matter? As Sobe herself said, we should not be concerned about what strangers think. There are people who are naturally androgenous, should they be forced to make their gender more obvious for the comfort of others? How we present ourselves in a public setting is our own business and is not dishonest.

For me it only becomes a moral question when we are interacting directly with people and they (unlikely) believe you are a real woman. Since I don't alter my voice or will ever have facial surgery this will never happen. I am happy to be treated like a woman, I don't actually want to deceive people that I actually am. For me this is no different from say a woman entering a male dominated workplace and asking to be treated like one of the guys. By crossdressing I am announcing I want to be treated like one of the girls. Is this bad?

I also think it is much easier for other people to think and react to you as a woman if that is what you are presenting, even if they know you are a genetic man. If I present as something inbetween, others will be confused as to how they should treat me -as a man or as a woman and this can be very off-putting for them due to their uncertainty.

People don't want to learn how to behave around a transgendered person, they just want to treat you either as a man or as a woman. We are not able to change this outlook so to lessen others discomfort and to address my own needs, emulating a woman makes sense.

I think that the concept of dishonesty is contextually innapropriate.

Many others have pointed out the thousand little lies we as human beings tell, like;coloring your hair, dressing up, dressing down, etc.

If we accept that these things are "dishonest", or "dishonest" with consequence, then it is plain that I lie to my mom all the time by chossing not to curse around her since in other contexts I have been know to let fly with the occasional f-bomb.

We all put on airs, whether it be by behaving in a professional manner while at work then getting rowdy with our friends at a game, it is not so much a matter of being dishonest as it is a matter of being constexually appropriate. When I behave one way at working, and another way with friends, the only manner in which I would be dishonest is by ommision by not pouring out every little aspect of my personality at every moment.

As far as behaving like a woman, much of the feminine behavior is a social construct. Certainly genetic factors play a role in our behavior, but I highly doubt wearing makeup, carrying a purse, or many other of the "Feminine" Behaviors are genetically hardwired to actual physical gender. So it might just be possible that a Genetic Male may also carry within him, for whatever reason, aspects of his personality that society considers feminine. Is it then "dishonest" for him to display those behaviors? Is it ever appropriate. Is it wrong that in a professional setting he is Mr. Smith, amongst his friends he is Jack, and when wearing high heels he is Jeannie?

I supsect that most people contain far more in their personalities than can be contained in such a small box as a gender role.

I would love to just put on some makeup and a skirt and "be the dude everyone knows me as" (in makeup and a skirt, of course):D But the truth is that I've experimented and in-between makes people uncomfortable. Whether I am the source of the discomfort is uncertain but.... I don't feel dishonest. I try to keep it real - or a least as real as most GGs. Nothing more than a padded bra to accentuate the top and no padding or anything else below. I only wish I had the natural hair.

[quote=Satrana;835726]

very few of us can ever pull off passing as a woman close up,...

If strangers are passing you in the street and believe you are a woman, so what?.....

We should not be concerned about what strangers think. end quotes]

This sort of puts the query in a nutshell. Strangers passing you in the street do not think of the person they are passing. They see clothes, a moving human shape and colours.

End of story without deception.

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Originally Posted by Leah B

Sure, I can. But that doesn't mean she'll accept that. I'm looking for your reasons why here. Why a fake name? Why fake boobs? Why fake anything?

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As I write these words, I know exactly how much denial will go on about this... but Leah, these behaviours all coincide with mine - but the main difference is, I've accepted that I want to portray a member of the opposite sex.

On some level, you must agree, we often dress - and do everything you described - because we love the feeling it gives us of getting as close as we can to a woman. This means, again on some level, that you are in fact removing your male persona for a moment to make way for a female one -- and on this basis I can see why your partner is upset, if she wants her husband to remain who he is.

If you did just wear the clothes of a woman, without trying to alter yourself then your partner would have what she wanted. So the question to ask yourself, and no one else, is:

What difference does it make to the way I feel if I remove the pretense that I am female?

I would not say being a woman is so much better than being a man but, at leaste for me, it is more about being authentic. Being who I really am. Not hiding or pretending the fact that I love ladies clothes. For me to hide this and pretend it is not there is more dishonest.

Happy to be me. Loving to be a crossdresser every bit of it.

Thanks for letting me share

SOme people have said here things along the lines of "It's okay if a woman dresses like a man, but not the other way around," which is true. Here's the thing though, many of us crossdress not to appear as men in women's clothing, but to actually appear AS women. When non-CD women "crossdress," they're not trying to pass. They're just wearing pants. Similarly, I could wear a skirt, and leave my beard, and I wouldn't pass. But I WANT to fool people.

Passing IS deceptive. Even if I considered my gender female (I don't), my sex is still male. By passing, I'm sending a signal that my sex is female, even if that's not really the point.

Isn't it about time we gave up on the idea of gender, and sexuality, as poler opposites? Isn't it about time we recognise that there is a gender spectrum? This subject can't be viewed so simplisticly as (though I hate the phrase) 'black or white'. If a worldview, or a theory, goes against the evidence then it must be wrong and should be discarded.

We stopped forcing people to display their ethnic or national heritage in particular dress or signs. Why must gender be enforced?

And so what if we want to appear to be female to be treated as female? How does that harm anyone? If we agree to sleep with someone or date someone without telling them that we have apparatus they might not be expecting that is unethical and also stupidly risky. Beyond that what harm is there beyond risking destroying false and harmful beliefs by thwarting social conventions and mores. Personally I think anyone who does that for a good, ethical cause is a good person. Feminists who marched when they were supposed to stay silent and defer to men? Good people! Aboriginal people who faught against discrimination by swimming in 'white only' pools or refusing to sit in the black section of the bus? Good people! People born with a Y chromosome who wish to be treated as though they had a second X chromasome (and vice versa!) and dress in the way that feels good and right to them? good people!

Isn't the badness of deception dependant on both the motivation and the effect? If someone is being decptive to trick someone into having sex with the same gender that would be bad but how many of us do that? Otherwise where is the actual harm? What is it about gender that is so precious that it requires such protection and must not be shared?

If someone feels female some of the time or all of the time on the inside isn't it deceptive to portray only maleness on the outside? Isn't it really about who we are inside that's supposed to count? Isn't it shallow or worse to insist otherwise? Where is the truth about someone anyway, how they think and feel, what is in their head and heart or what is between their legs?

Isn't the act of expressing femininity about wanting to express what is inside and wanting to be treated for what we are inside not what is on the outside?

Sometimes I feel male, sometimes female and most of the time somewhere in between. Why should I be restricted to looking 100% one or the other? And if I do feel at a given time totally female why should I not dress that way just because I do not want to be that way all the time? Wouldn't that be the true deception?

OK I am going to coment again. [ IS A SOUL MALE OR FEMALE ] I think that we keep coming back until we do it right. WHAT RIGHT IS I DON'T KNOW. So what ever body we end up with on our return there is left over from our last life. I have got by the female cloths or male . They are mine an I enjoy wearing what I like ,not as much as like too of course. Great coments I enjoyed reading them all.

Josephine

But can a soul be 60% male and 40% female?

Yeah, I definitely don't think it's generally a harmful deception. There are cases though...

The problem is not with us but with everyone else....:D

Although it is clear in our heads that we are in fact being truthful and honest in displaying how we feel and how we want to be treated when we crossdress, to everyone else our crossdressing is considered a simple deception - ie a man dressing as a woman so that he becomes sexually attractive to other men.

Even if the other person, like an SO, knows about the crossdressing community and had intereacted with us, this imagined linkage between homosexuality and crossdressing remains ever present. It seems the only sensible reason to explain why. Some cds dont think answering the why question is important to them but it is important to non-cds who want to know why we do this if they are being asked to accept or tolerate it. And since they do not believe in a gender spectrum, either we are transsexual or we are gay men in denial.

We will always hit this brick wall until society learns and appreciates the gender spectrum, learns that this applies to everyone. Only then will crossdressing no longer be considered a mystery or be linked to homosexuality or be considered deceptive.

I dunno,everyone, it seems, is a sh*****se lawyer or psychologist these days and we cannot conceive of someone doing something simply because they like doing it. There HAS to be an ulterior motive. Our society thrives on ulterior motives.
The simple truth is, some days I like wearing my guy clothes and some days I just want to put on a dress, wig and makeup and look pretty because it makes me feel good. If that makes me someone who is being deceptive, then I guess I'm guilty as charged although that wasn't my intention. Amazing what you learn these days from others who are experts in YOUR feelings. Now I'm wondering what my real motivation for liking pizza is.:p

What a wonderful photograph of what I take to be Sobe & Leah's colorful toenails in quiet contemplation and conversation!

Congratulations, Sobe & Leah!

Honest or dishonest feet? Just beautiful and loving.:love:

Valerie

If you are getting married and hide your desires, that's dishonest. Isn't marriage about sharring? Why go through life with a little bag in the attic that only you know about.

Lanore

Society has defined what is normal and expected. Anything other than the expected norm is wrong. A lot of people believe this. A lot of people don't. It is not dishonest to question what should be normal. It is necessary.

So Leah and Sobe, are you looking for someone to take your side? All of this talk of dishonesty, greed, etc.? I had a girlfriend who thought embarassing me publicly would make me quit dressing. To that point, I was primarily in the closet other than going out at Haloween or theme skates. It didn't stop me. What it did was bring me out of the closet.

I try to pass most of the time. Sometimes if I'm just going to the corner store for bread or milk I'm not concerned about passing. I'm just running an errand. It feels good to get dressed and move in public without people knowing whether you're a man or woman. You get a lot less attention. If you go out to interact with others then you will not pass. My friends can say I look nice but they know I'm a man. The clerk at the counter may not know because my time spent there is limited. I'm a customer to be served and then I leave. Many do not realize that I'm a man. Some do. But if I spent any extended time with them they all would know. So passing is relative. I'm not trying to be dishonest. Spend time with me and you'll know what I am. Pass me on the street and who knows, or cares?

How can it be dishonest when you are only expressing your "true" self??

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Originally Posted by Butterfly Bill

I have to say that I agree with her somewhat. I wear the clothes, but it remains obvious that I am a man, and I think life is much simpler when I do it like that. I also feel I get more acceptance from other people that way.

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If that works for you, and brings you happiness, that's wonderful. But for transgendered people like me, that just does'nt work. And we are NOT dishonest. There's a part of me that IS female. I didn't ask for it, but there it is. As a guy, I could no more walk around in a skirt than naked, and feel comfortable. As a girl, I am a girl. I feel female, and act and dress accordingly. Whether or not I am passing, well, that is for another thread, and is irrelevant, truthfully. Having two genders inside you may be inconvenient, alot of work, and a general pain in the butt sometimes. But it's real. Can't tell me it's not. And what is real cannot be dishonest. Finding the courage to be who you are, despite all the STUFF to put up with, is exceedingly honest.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

Ugh. I wish this thread would just die. I was angry in the first place for him starting it because from the very beginning it was a 'sobe is so horrible' brigade.

Ya know, I'm not as horrible as you all may think.

And I don't think that 'Leah' wanting to show his girly side is dishonest. Nor do I care whether or not strangers are fooled.

My concerns are on a relationship level between me and my boyfriend. They have nothing to do with any of you or of strangers. This is something that we have to work out ourselves.

If 'everyone is different' than you all shouldn't be so compelled to hate on me.

Sobe

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Originally Posted by sobe1ove GG

Ugh. I wish this thread would just die. I was angry in the first place for him starting it because from the very beginning it was a 'sobe is so horrible' brigade.

Ya know, I'm not as horrible as you all may think.

And I don't think that 'Leah' wanting to show his girly side is dishonest. Nor do I care whether or not strangers are fooled.

My concerns are on a relationship level between me and my boyfriend. They have nothing to do with any of you or of strangers. This is something that we have to work out ourselves.

If 'everyone is different' than you all shouldn't be so compelled to hate on me.

Sobe

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Honey, I, for one, don't hate ya! Heck, if ya read my post, I wasn't even answering you directly, as I quoted another post.

Sorry, don't mean to get all defensive and self indulgent. But I guess I just did! Ya should know, though, that I understand what you're saying. Best of luck to ya both.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

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Originally Posted by Melissa A.

Honey, I, for one, don't hate ya! Heck, if ya read my post, I wasn't even answering you directly, as I quoted another post.

Sorry, don't mean to get all defensive and self indulgent. But I guess I just did! Ya should know, though, that I understand what you're saying. Best of luck to ya both.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

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Yeah I know your post wasn't directed at me. I was more saying to everyone what I feel. This thread is boiling over with negativity toward me. At least it feels that way.

But thanks for being nice, Melissa. :)

I suppose I should clear the air here, since I went and made this a board issue. I think a lot of you have gotten the wrong impression of Sobe.

I posted this thread after we had had an argument (bad idea, I know), and it wasn't fair to her to bring it here. My intention was to try to get her to understand where I was coming from on this issue, that I felt that even if crossdressing is deceptive, that is is honest on some level. What I didn't intend was for this to be a pile-on Sobe.

CD philosophies aside, she's supportive, and she loves me, and she's going through hell to be with me. We've had our whole lives to sort out crossdressing, and most of us still struggle with it. Sobe's had six months. Six months to learn what it means to be Trans, to be with a Transy, to learm what gender is, and what it means to her and to our relationship, and to relationships in general when one body shares two genders. She's a goddamn hero. She's frustrating sometimes, and prone to say things we might find offensive without actually meaning to (like calling CDing greedy; She admits that the word "greed" implies a concept that she didn't intend), but I still love her (and so should you! Or else.)

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Originally Posted by Melissa A.

If that works for you, and brings you happiness, that's wonderful. But for transgendered people like me, that just does'nt work. And we are NOT dishonest. There's a part of me that IS female. I didn't ask for it, but there it is. As a guy, I could no more walk around in a skirt than naked, and feel comfortable. As a girl, I am a girl. I feel female, and act and dress accordingly. Whether or not I am passing, well, that is for another thread, and is irrelevant, truthfully. Having two genders inside you may be inconvenient, alot of work, and a general pain in the butt sometimes. But it's real. Can't tell me it's not. And what is real cannot be dishonest. Finding the courage to be who you are, despite all the STUFF to put up with, is exceedingly honest.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

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it takes tremendous courage to be whole.


Sobe, I certainly do not hate you! You are learning and that learning curve is so steep. I really do feel for you.





Louise.:love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

I have a few frivolous, serious and philosophical opinions on the various topics posted on this thread. I will hold on to those for another time.

One of the cardinal rules in any relationship is that communication is sacred. When the communication becomes a debate and the rules change from rules of communication to rules of debate, the relationship factor gets lost. When you take the debate to a public forum such as this without both parties in agreement to take that step (and sometimes even if they do agree to take that step) someone is very likely going to get hurt. In the context of this thread, Sobe has some perfectly valid opinions in the context of their original discussion (argument). Aired here without that original context, we debate something else, and given the makeup (sic) of this forum that debate is lopsided.

SoBe's hurt is very rational and reasonable. The original (private) context of their discussion was lost to her. :beatup: :frustrated: :Pullhair:

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Originally Posted by Leah B

I posted this thread after we had had an argument (bad idea, I know), and it wasn't fair to her to bring it here. My intention was to try to get her to understand where I was coming from on this issue

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I want to be sure and say that I do not hate anyone at all. :)
:hugs:
Hugs all round, to those I agree with and those I do not.

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Originally Posted by Leah B

I suppose I should clear the air here, since I went and made this a board issue. I think a lot of you have gotten the wrong impression of Sobe.

I posted this thread after we had had an argument (bad idea, I know), and it wasn't fair to her to bring it here. My intention was to try to get her to understand where I was coming from on this issue, that I felt that even if crossdressing is deceptive, that is is honest on some level. What I didn't intend was for this to be a pile-on Sobe.

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What you did was selfish, bringing a private arguement onto the board is just below the belt and I will not let this discussion go on any longer. You've hurt sobe, you should be ashamed of how she feels now :mad: :mad: